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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Clare => Topic started by: SHRYL on Sunday 11 February 24 06:34 GMT (UK)
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Can I ask for any help regarding John Heffernan b1836? and Margaret O'Rourke b 1840? Married at Newmarket on Fergus 2nd Feb 1859 Children: Daniel b 12.4.1862, Margaret b 17.4.1864, Patrick b 28.6.1867 Margaret 1864 , is my great grandmother. I am travelling to Co Clare in June and would love to visit churches where married and places they lived (I think they were farmers) and where they are buried if possible? I am not sure of their birth dates either? many thanks in anticipation.
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Here is the civil registration for the birth of Margaret Heffernan in 1864.
Handwriting is difficult, but the date looks to me like 12/4/1864 [somewhat unclear on the 12, anyone else?]. Father John Heffernan, mother Peggy Rourke [Peggy is Margaret]. Father a laborer. The address I can't connect to a formal townland address in Clare - need input from others.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1864/03612/2332826.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1864/03612/2332826.pdf)
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Baptism of Margaret, daughter of John Heffernan and Margaret Rourke, parish of Newmarket-on-Fergus, 21 April 1864 [Bottom of left hand page]
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634764#page/170/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634764#page/170/mode/1up)
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OP is correct that John Heffernan and Margaret Rourke were married on 2 February 1859 in parish of Newmarket-on-Fergus
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634764#page/232/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634764#page/232/mode/1up)
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Civil birth registration for Patrick Heffernan on 28/6/1867. John has been promoted - now a "small farmer".
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03471/2274944.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03471/2274944.pdf)
I still can't identify the address with a formal townland though. The two civil registration births are in the district of Newmarket, and one can restrict the list to just townlands in that area, or just in the Barony of Bunratty Lower. Nothing obvious.
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There is this place:
Mooghaun North and there is Mooghaun South in Tomfinlough parish
https://www.johngrenham.com/c_parish/c_parish_main.php?civilparishid=2786&civilparish=Tomfinlough
Griffiths Valuation shows a John Heffernan in Mooghaun North.
Seems to be Mooglaun here
https://www.townlands.ie/clare/bunratty-lower/tomfinlough/newmarket/mooglaun-south/
Irish census 1901 shows Heffernan and O’Rourke in Moohaun North
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01szo/
What do you think?
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There is this place:
Mooghaun North and there is Mooghaun South in Tomfinlough parish
https://www.johngrenham.com/c_parish/c_parish_main.php?civilparishid=2786&civilparish=Tomfinlough
Griffiths Valuation shows a John Heffernan in Mooghaun North.
Seems to be Mooglaun here
https://www.townlands.ie/clare/bunratty-lower/tomfinlough/newmarket/mooglaun-south/
Irish census 1901 shows Heffernan and O’Rourke in Moohaun North
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01szo/
What do you think?
Yes, I reached the same conclusion about the townland, before turning in for the night. Also noticed a very significant point about the Hefffernans there - multiple families, same name.
I have to say that some people do have them, and SHYRL has picked classics with these folks in Clare and also her ancestors in Roscommon.
I will post separately about the twowland and the family.
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It is not that uncommon for the Ordnance Survey official spelling to diverge from local usage, ad that local usage may also be used officially by An Post and the railway. Usually though, the difference is an obvious one - things like Oylgate versus Oilgate, Ballygeary versus Ballygerry, etc.
But I have never previously noticed a discrepancy like this one where Griffith's disagrees with Towlnlands.ie, and in turn is noticeably different from with the local usage in registrations and census returns.
Multiple civil registration BDM returns all say Moohaun. No north or south.
There is no Moohaun in Griffith's or Townlands.ie
As heywood has pointed out, Griffiths Valuation has
Mooghaun North, and
Mooghaun South
While Townlands.ie has
Mooglaun North
https://www.townlands.ie/clare/bunratty-lower/tomfinlough/newmarket/mooglaun-north/ (https://www.townlands.ie/clare/bunratty-lower/tomfinlough/newmarket/mooglaun-north/)
and
Mooglaun South
https://www.townlands.ie/clare/bunratty-lower/tomfinlough/newmarket/mooglaun-south/ (https://www.townlands.ie/clare/bunratty-lower/tomfinlough/newmarket/mooglaun-south/)
There is also a Mogullaan
https://www.townlands.ie/clare/bunratty-lower/drumline/urlan/mogullaan/ (https://www.townlands.ie/clare/bunratty-lower/drumline/urlan/mogullaan/)
As heywood also mentioned, comparison with Griffith's valuation and the 1901 census allows one to say with certainty that one John Heffernan family was in Moohaun/Mooghaun/Mooglaun North.
However, this was apparently NOT OPs family.
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Griffith's Valuation for Ennis PLU was published on 15/9/1855.
As heywood already commented, a John Heffernan is shown as farming over 40 acres in Mooghaun North, jointly with two others, and living in a modest 15.s house.
That is the first sign of a discrepancy. Such a person would never be described as a "labourer" as on the 1864 birth registration for Margaret Heffernan.
Separately, I noticed births to a John Heffernan and Sarah O'Neill, farmer, address Moohaun, both before and after the births of the children to John Heffernan and Margaret Rourke.
Conclusion - there were two John Heffernans in Moohaun, and the one married to Sarah O'Neill is the one with the farm shown on Griffith's Valuation.
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Birth registration for James Heffernan 7/4/1869, Moohane
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1869/03391/2243544.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1869/03391/2243544.pdf)
Father John Heffernan, farmer
Mother Sarah O'Neil
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Death of John Heffernan, 12/7/1895, aged 77, Moohane
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1895/05920/4680879.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1895/05920/4680879.pdf)
Informant - James Heffernan, son
This John is the one married to Sarah O'Neil
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Family of Sarah [O'Neil] Heffernan, widow of John, on 1901 census, in Moohane North
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000466406/ (https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000466406/)
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OP/SHYRL - do you have access to Ancestry?
Many, many Heffernans and Rourkes in the court records for Newmarket-on-Fergus.
John Heffernan of Moohane appears from 1842 to 1890s - may not all be same person of course.
Rioting in the streets, failure to pay their taxes, animals wandering on other people's land, etc. etc.
Did you mention they all had a free cruise to the Antipodes at Her Majesty's expense? ;)
When and how many of the family did travel to Australia?
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As for the Rourkes, a Daniel Rourke is listed in Griffith's Valuation, 1855, as jointly farming 39 acres in Mooghaun North. Given the son named Daniel, he is possible father or brother of Margaret Rourke.
He also appears in court for rioting in the streets of Newmarket...
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That reminds me, Daniel Heffernan died 12/3/1865, aged 3, informant mother Margaret Heffernan.
Death registered Ennis SRD.
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The following Heffernans with address Moohane appear in the court records, some many times, such as John:
John
Michael
James
Thomas
Patrick
Also multiple Rourkes, including Daniel.
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Holy cow!!! That is an astonishing find Wexflyer. I can't believe the difficulty I have with these names!! so many of them and very confusing. Yes I am on Ancestry and yes Margaret O'Rourke b 1864 came out to Australia on board "Shenir" leaving Plymouth arriving in Oz 1880.I think she came out on her own aged 18years. And I think it was "free passage"!! I did see the other John Heffernan living in Mooghan (south and north) I don't think that is my person. Married to Sarah O'Neil.
So a colourful past I see and one that is difficult to investigate. I must admit I didn't look at the court records??? I will start looking at them on Ancestry as well. Thank you for the information on the Rourkes as well. Maybe that is an avenue to pursue. I may hit a dead end when I travel to the Heffernan / O'Rourke areas!! enjoy the superbowl.....
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John Heffernan married Sara Neil in Newmaket-on-Fergus on 27/4/1843.
The relevant pages are deliberately covered/omitted from the NLI microfilm copy, ??? but a transcript is on RootsIreland.
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John Heffernan and Sarah O'Neil had a daughter Bridget, baptized Moohane 7/6/1864.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634764#page/171/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634764#page/171/mode/1up)
So, same name, same father's name, same year of birth, same place of birth as the other Bridget Heffernan
SHRYL, can you be sure which of these two Bridgets is your ancestor?
- Silly mix up
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There is this place:
Mooghaun North and there is Mooghaun South in Tomfinlough parish
https://www.johngrenham.com/c_parish/c_parish_main.php?civilparishid=2786&civilparish=Tomfinlough
Griffiths Valuation shows a John Heffernan in Mooghaun North.
Seems to be Mooglaun here
https://www.townlands.ie/clare/bunratty-lower/tomfinlough/newmarket/mooglaun-south/
Irish census 1901 shows Heffernan and O’Rourke in Moohaun North
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01szo/
What do you think?
thank you Heywood. this seems to indicate there is two John Heffernans living in Moohaun. So Many Heffernans!! What I do know for sure is John Heffernan b? married Margaret O'Rourke ? married Newmarket on Fergus 2.2.1859 I dont have their birth dates . I did notice that on the Griffiths list for Moohaun, there was Reynolds and a John Reynolds was a witness at their wedding.thanks again for all you help , it is so frustrating.......
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John Heffernan and Sarah O'Neil had a daughter Bridget, baptized Moohane 7/6/1864.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634764#page/171/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634764#page/171/mode/1up)
So, same name, same father's name, same year of birth, same place of birth as the other Bridget Heffernan
SHRYL, can you be sure which of these two Bridgets is your ancestor?
Wexflyer, I don't have a Bridget on this line of ancestors. So far all I have is John Heffernan and Margaret O'Rourke and their children: Daniel, Margaret and Patrick. Margaret b1864 being my great grandmother, who journeyed to Australia for free. I will be staying in the area for five days in June so hopefully I can find some information . Is there anywhere I could go to do this? There are so many Heffernans!!!
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John Heffernan and Sarah O'Neil had a daughter Bridget, baptized Moohane 7/6/1864.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634764#page/171/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634764#page/171/mode/1up)
So, same name, same father's name, same year of birth, same place of birth as the other Bridget Heffernan
SHRYL, can you be sure which of these two Bridgets is your ancestor?
Wexflyer, I don't have a Bridget on this line of ancestors. So far all I have is John Heffernan and Margaret O'Rourke and their children: Daniel, Margaret and Patrick. Margaret b1864 being my great grandmother, who journeyed to Australia for free. I will be staying in the area for five days in June so hopefully I can find some information . Is there anywhere I could go to do this? There are so many Heffernans!!!
Ah, you are correct - different Christian names! Silly me, looking at too many posts at once.
I have no local knowledge of Clare, sorry.
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Yes I am on Ancestry and yes Margaret O'Rourke b 1864 came out to Australia on board "Shenir" leaving Plymouth arriving in Oz 1880.I
I think you mean Heffernan, not O'Rourke :)
Um... If Margaret Heffernan emigrated to the Antipodes in 1880, then how did she marry Patrick Fallon from Roscommon "29 Apr 1882 Ipswich, Suffolk, England."
That is a direct cut and paste from what it states on her Ancestry listing.
Addendum:
I see that she appears in 18 Ancestry trees! The above is what it states in the first one that appears. One has to click to see the others, some of which say Ipswich, Queensland. Others, again, England. One of these profiles has this same Margaret have two children in Australia, then back to Ireland for 5 more, marry Patrick Fallon in 1896, and reside in Toberdan, Roscommon, on the 1911 Irish census....
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Sorry Wexflyer I did mean Margaret Heffernan. And Margaret Heffernan and Patrick Fallon married at Ipswich Qld on 29th April 1882. Not Ipswich England easy to confuse. I have a copy of their marriage certificate here.
they had six children here in Brisbane : Patrick, Bridget, Kate, Eileen, Malachy and John. Eileen is my grandmother. They (Margaret and Patrick ) are buried here in Brisbane , I have the details for that as well. Easier to access as time goes on ...
I am still investigating the Heffernans in Co Clare and looking into the court listings as well. Sorry for the confusion. That is the problem with there being so many with the same name.
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hey RootsChat,
where did you go? I got used to our chats on the forum. Have we exhausted all of our avenues?
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hey RootsChat,
where did you go? I got used to our chats on the forum. Have we exhausted all of our avenues?
Someone suggested going through the microfilm of the parish register yourself, page by page.
As you have surely noticed by now, the Ancestry transcriptions are not to be relied on - and some of yours are actually missing. Could be more.
Other than that, not much left. Take a look at the tythe valuations, of course, on the NAI site.
You should consider yourself fortunate in a way - many, many Americans, for example, have nothing better to go on than "Ireland", whereas you know the specific townlands your family came from in Clare and Roscommon.
Actually, you can pull up the maps associated with the Griffith's Valuation, and see precisely where the farms were.
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Thanks Wexflyer. I did generate the maps and I think I have identified the areas they farmed.
I printed them off and also downloaded on my laptop, so I have access to them when we are over there. I must admit this ancestry research is quite addictive. I can go down so many rabbit holes.
You and Heywood have been so helpful to this novice. My regret is that I can't find their gravesites.
With the records being so scatty doesn't help. Maybe when I get there someone can help. Again thankyou for all your assistance. It was appreciated.
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hey RootsChat,
where did you go? I got used to our chats on the forum. Have we exhausted all of our avenues?
Someone suggested going through the microfilm of the parish register yourself, page by page.
As you have surely noticed by now, the Ancestry transcriptions are not to be relied on - and some of yours are actually missing. Could be more.
Yes that is a point I have seen the microfilm and it would take a little trolling through. Maybe worth it. And yes I don't rely On ancestry records - they can be misleading at times.
Other than that, not much left. Take a look at the tythe valuations, of course, on the NAI site.
You should consider yourself fortunate in a way - many, many Americans, for example, have nothing better to go on than "Ireland", whereas you know the specific townlands your family came from in Clare and Roscommon.
Actually, you can pull up the maps associated with the Griffith's Valuation, and see precisely where the farms were.
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hey RootsChat,
where did you go? I got used to our chats on the forum. Have we exhausted all of our avenues?
Someone suggested going through the microfilm of the parish register yourself, page by page.
As you have surely noticed by now, the Ancestry transcriptions are not to be relied on - and some of yours are actually missing. Could be more.
Yes that is a point I have seen the microfilm and it would take a little trolling through. Maybe worth it. And yes I don't rely On ancestry records - they can be misleading at times.
Other than that, not much left. Take a look at the tythe valuations, of course, on the NAI site.
You should consider yourself fortunate in a way - many, many Americans, for example, have nothing better to go on than "Ireland", whereas you know the specific townlands your family came from in Clare and Roscommon.
Actually, you can pull up the maps associated with the Griffith's Valuation, and see precisely where the farms were.
I was very fortunate I had a copy of my great grandparents marriage certificate whereby the areas they came from were listed there. It helps if you have documentation I believe.