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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: Nodrogw on Thursday 22 February 24 07:46 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to find information about William Irving, who was a lance corporal who died in WW1 on 18th July 1916. He was 41. I have tried Scotlands People from 1870 onwards, but there are no records of his birth. I would also like to see his attestation papers for when he joined up. Any help greatly appreciated.
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There is this transcription which lists his birth place as Annan Dumfrieshire - Could he have lied about his age when he enlisted :-\
William Irving
Death 18 July 1916
Rank L/cpl
Death place France & Flanders
Service number S/3619
Theatre of war Western European Theatre
Battalion 1st Battalion.
Cause of death Killed in action
Regiment Gordon Highlanders
Birth place Annan, Dumfriesshire
Enlistment place Aberdeen
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This may be of use
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I wonder whether this was William's mother (after remarriage) and brother George in 1901 living at 21 North St Annan
William Johnston 48 Carter b Annan
Mary Johnston 47 b Annan
George Irving 17
Mina Irving 13
William Dalrymple 11
Added in 1911 the family were living at 26 North Street as mentioned in the 1917 press cutting posted above
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William Johnston married Mary Scott or Irving in Annan in 1895.
1891 census in Annan: Mary Irving, widow, 38; Jane, 13; Joseph, 11; Mary, 8; George, 6; Williamina, 3; Thomas, under 1 year; William Dalrymple, 2nd cousin.
1881: Thomas Irving, 38, quarryman; Mary, wife, 27; Thomas, 7; John Ann R, 5; Jane, 3; Joseph, 1.
This looks like the family of Thomas Irving and Mary Scott, who were married in Annan in 1875. See screenshot. No sign of a William there.
There's a birth of William Scott, illegitimate son of Janet Scott, in Annan in 1874.
In 1861 there's a family consisting of John Scott, 34; wife Mary, 40; Jemima A, 10; Janet, 8; Mary, 6; William, 3; John A R, 1.
These look like the family of John Scott and Mary Dalrymple, married 17 December 1847 in Annan.
Could this be Mary with her parents and siblings? And could Mary have (informally) adopted her sister's illegitimate child? If so, where was he in 1881?
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Screenshot from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission web site.
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I haven't found William in 1881 either. :-\
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I wondered if perhaps Thomas who was 7 in 1881 had changed his name to William? He was born Thomas Irving Scott in Annan in 1873.
But there's a death of Thomas Irving, mmn Scott, aged 16, in 1889, so it's not that.
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James E McJERROW, Grocer, lived in Dryfesdale in 1891 and 1901. There is also a William IRVING in Dryfesdale in 1881 aged 16, Grocer' Assistant. His parents are Richard and Janet.
I can't see any reason why this one would need a surrogate mother as his parents were both still alive in 1901.
Debra :)
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Thank you all for your help. There are certainly some things which have answered some of my queries.
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Where did you get the information that he was aged 41? It seems strange to me to mention an apprenticeship for a man of that age but no mention of anything more recent, such as where he worked before enlisting.
Added in 1911 the family were living at 26 North Street as mentioned in the 1917 press cutting posted above
What was William DALRYMPLE's occupation in 1911?
Debra :)
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There are three deaths of William Irvings in 1916 in the service returns on Scotland's People. Aged 22, 25 and 26. None aged 41 in 1916 or at any time between 1914 and 1918.
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The Scottish Military Research Group has the following information,
The D&G Standard 19/5/1917 p.5 reported that his mother Mrs. Johnstone had been told of William's death and that her other son George of the Australians had been wounded. I have identified the family from George's service record at the National Archives of Australia.
William Irving � age 26 � Lance Corporal (S/3619) 1st Battalion, Gordon Highlanders.
William served his apprenticeship as a grocer in Annan and joined his battalion in France in April 1915. He was promoted to Lance Corporal in January 1916.
Born 1890 in North Street, Annan as William Beattie Dalrymple. Son of William Beattie and of Mary Ann Dalrymple of Ecclefechan, Dumfriesshire.
It goes on to say that he is named as William Dalrymple on each of the 1891-1901-1911 census records.
This link should take you to the site.... http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/warmemscot-ftopic112-0-asc-75.html
Matt
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William’s personal effects were returned to his mother Mary Johnston
His brother George Irving born abt 1883 (according to WW1 attestation papers in March 1915, Sydney)
Next of Kin:- His Step-father Mr W Johnston is crossed out (at some point after attestation) and written in is mother Mrs Mary Johnston of 26 North St Annan.
George’s Marriage certificate is included in his service record
George Birrell IRVING married 24.10.1918 Paisley to Jane Gray REID
His father is named as Thomas Irving (Stone Quarrier, deceased)
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It all fits - William Dalrymple was listed as a Grocers Assistant in 1911 while living with the Johnston family at 26 North St, Annan
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Thank you for all the trouble you have taken. This has proved most interesting. I can't understand why his surname is Irving as he was born Dalrymple, and was born after Mary married Mr Johnstone. Of course Mary's mother's maiden name was Dalrymple and maybe Mary Ann was a niece. I hadn't been able to find out anything about her, but maybe she died in childbirth and Mary Johnstone brought him up as her own. Thank you again for your help
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Could this the mother of William in 1891? :-\
Mary A Dalrymple 40 Serv (Servant) b Annan servant in the Kennedy household living at Meinbank, Hoddam, Dumfrieshire
Added William was born at North Street Annan (maybe in the home of Mary Irving??)
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I should have added that when Mary Irving married William Johnston in 1895 in Annan she lists her parents as John Scott and Elizabeth Scott nee Beattie with witnesses Matthew Dalrymple and Mary Ann Dalrymple
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There are some court papers for the paternity case in the National Records Office of Scotland which might give you additional information. This link gives the reference number and a brief mention.
https://www.scottishindexes.com/courtentry.aspx?courtid=36083021
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Scottish indexes have an entry in their paternity index;
Pursuer : Mary Ann Dalrymple, domestic servant, Muirbank, Ecclefechan, Dumfriesshire,
Defender: William Beattie, Porter, ( Caledonian Railway Company), Buchanan Street, Glasgow
The decree was in 1892 ( thus after 1891 census when William Dalrymple from Forfarian's post is showing as second cousin).
Suspect, Kay, that Muirbank has been wrongly transcribed as Meinbank in the 1891 census you looked at.
I would also point out that he was born before, not after, the Johnston/ Irving marriage.
William
( Was typing while you posted, Neale).
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I should have added that when Mary Irving married William Johnston in 1895 in Annan she lists her parents as John Scott and Elizabeth Scott nee Beattie with witnesses Matthew Dalrymple and Mary Ann Dalrymple
When Mary Scott married Thomas Irving in 1875 she said that her parents were John Scott and Mary Dalrymple.
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I have checked the marriage certificate between Mary Irving (nee Scott) and William Johnstone. The Mother's name, shown as Elizabeth Scott (nee Beattie) is definitely wrong. When she married Thomas Irving, the marriage certificate correctly shows Mary Scott (nee Dalrymple)
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Mary Dalrymple or Scott died in Annan in 1882 aged 62, mother's maiden surname Rae.
So that could explain one of her daughters, and one of her granddaughters, being named John Ann Rae.
Looks as if her widower John Scott married Margaret George, other surname Robinson, in Annan in 1889.
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I have gone through all the information you have given, together with more from Scotlands People. I wondered if Mary adopted William, however adoptions were private in Scotland before 1930 so there will be no evidence. As Dalrymple was Mary's mother's surname, I am presuming that Mary Ann was a cousin, and probably was not in a position to bring a child up. I would think that Mary must have adopted him and given him the name of Irving. This is the only explanation I can give for Mary being advised of his death, as his mother. None of this can be proved unfortunately but it seems the most logical explanation.
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Based on William's birth cert, which shows birth at North St, I wondered whether he was born in the house of Mary Irving
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That could well be so.
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Assuming we have identified the correct Mary Ann Dalrymple she died 10 Oct 1905 in Dumfries Infirmary. Work place is given as Luce Mains, Ecclefechan ( where she was recorded in 1901 with the same Kennedy family as in 1891). Parents William Dalrymple and Janet Lawson. Informant was brother John.
Some ancy trees have this cert.
William
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Ecclefechan is in the parish of Hoddom, so the 40-year-old Mary Ann Dalrymple in 1891 at Muirbank, Hoddom would certainly fit.
The 1891 transcription I'm looking at doesn't say where in Dumfries-shire she was born.
She is a near match to the 1861 listing in Annan of Mary Ann Dalrymple, aged 9, granddaughter of John D and Mary Rae, except that this gives her birthplace as Middlebie.
This also matches Mary Ann D, dairymaid, aged 30, born Middlebie, in the household of Peter Carruthers in Cummertrees in 1881.
In 1861 there is also a grandson John D, aged 1, born Annan. This looks like John Rae Dalrymple, son of William Rae Dalrymple and Janet Lawson, born 16 June 1859 in Annan. William R Dalrymple and Janet Lawson were married in Annan in 1850. They also had a daughter Mary Ann, born in Middlebie in 1852 (SP index says 1832 but it's wrong - I've reported it).
Mary Ann Dalrymple, mother's maiden surname Lawson, died in Dumfries in 1905, aged 51.
So I think that the mother of William Beattie Dalyrmple was the daughter of William Rae D and granddaughter of John D and Mary Rae.
EDIT (Posted before I saw Millmoor's most recent post. I'm glad to have my hypothesis confirmed!)
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In 1861 I think Mary Scott/Irving/Johnston and Mary Ann Dalrymple were living as near neighbours at Newbie Barns to the south of Annan
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Following on, we know that Mary Scott or Irving or Johnston was a daughter of John Scott and Mary Dalrymple, and that Mary Dalrymple was the daughter of John D and Mary Rae.
William D, mmn Rae, died in Annan in 1891 aged 63. So he seems to be the brother of Mary Scott or Irving or Johnston. If William Beattie D is, as I believe, William's grandson, that makes him great-nephew to Mary D or I or J.
It still doesn't explain why Mary D/I/J is named as his mother in his military records, but as his mother died in 1905, his brother in 1912, his sister in 1889, his grandfather in 1891 and grandmother in 1860, all before he enlisted, she was certainly his next of kin.
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Further to the foregoing, I have now discovered that Mary Scott/Irving/Johnstone was a niece of William Dalrymple, her mother's brother. I had not found out until further investigation that William was married twice. Firstly to Janet Lawson who died in 1860, and then to Ruth Irving. Janet gave birth to Mary Ann Dalrymple in 1852 which makes her a cousin of Mary S/I/J . When Mary Ann gave birth to William Beattie Dalrymple he was Mary's second cousin. As Mary Ann died in 1905 and William was still living g with Mary Johnstone this is almost certainly why she was named as his next of kin on his attestation.