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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dunbartonshire => Topic started by: Izzy on Wednesday 06 March 24 16:13 GMT (UK)
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Does anyone know how to search census for people living at an address please,I have been on Scotlands people and entered the name but getting no returns.
The family lived 229 main st Bonhill i cant find anything on Seffer/Seffen can i look up the address on the census I know they live there in 1912 up to 1936 at least,
Thank you in advance Izzy
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I don't use Scotlands people but is this link any good
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/guides/record-guides/census-returns#Street%20indexes
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Could you give the names, ages, birthplaces etc of the people you are looking for on those census?
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Hello
In 1915 there is an Elizabeth Seffen at 229 & 223 Main st. Bonhill on SP valuations. She is also listed in 1920 at same addresses.1925 ,1930 , 1935 and 1940 , same thing ...
In the valuation section of SP I put surname begins with Sef and in location box I put Bonhill then you toggle through the years starting in 1920.
There is a glitch on the 1915 valuation page... if you put name starts with Sef and place Bonhill... nothing comes up. Remove Bonhill and you'll see Elizabeth Seffen 229 Main st Bonhill.
And.... just like that the SP site is down for maintenance and we can't check.
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In 1901 census there are two Elizabeth Seffen's in Bonhill.
One is married ,age 30 living as a guest
The other lives at 469 Main st , Bonhill with husband Henry Seffen and son James. The same census says Henry and Lizzie were born in Ireland.
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Thankyou so much Ive been putting names in tried without forenames tried Seffer and Seffen it has been driving me crazy been looking for over 10 yrs lol
I want to find some children who lived with them hopefully they will be on the cencus.
Thank you Izzy
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Could you give the names, ages, birthplaces etc of the people you are looking for on those census?
Thank you for reply Im looking for Seffen family 229 Main st Bonhill the children were fostered by the family Im affraid I dont know mr Seffens name but her name could Elizabeth Seffen I have them on a poorlaw application Seffer thanks in advance
Izzy
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On the 1911 census at Bonhill there shows:
Elizabeth Seffon 40 ref 493/ 11/ 5
There is another Seffon entry in Bonhill that year:
Henry Seffon 69 ref 493/ 12/ 26
You would have to view the image to see the details and additional names, if any, at that property.
Monica
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There is another Seffen family in Dumbarton for the 1911 census:
Henry Seffen 48
Ellen Seffen 50
Rose Seffen 23
Nellie Seffen 20
Ref 496/ 3/ 17
Monica
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Thank you Monica
Did you find them on SP I have entered lots of different spellings wasted £40 doing searches I found one marriage cert and one death and no census resuts, is it 229 Main st
Izzy
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Yes, these are all on the SP indexes for the censuses.
The 1921 census shows the following entry on the census index:
ELIZABETH W HALE OF SEFFEN 51 ref 493/ 16/ 14
The older Henry Seffen now 78 is still also in Bonhill ref 493/ 14/ 30
And in Dumbarton, for 1921 there is also still a Henry Seffen 56 and now a Mary Seffen 43 (maybe Helen died?) ref 496/ 3/ 26
These are the only Seffen (and variants) entries in Dumbartonshire for both 1911 and 1921.
Monica
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I haven't viewed them, Izzy. You would need to view them to see the full details for the individual households.
I just put in S*F* and Dunbarton for County on the search screen.
Monica
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Elizabeth's death registration makes sense of the 1921 census entry on the index. This should read HALE or SEFFEN rather than HALE of SEFFEN.
Her death registration in 1942 shows:
Elizabeth Hale or Seffon (death indexed separately under both surnames)
Age 72
1942
Bonhill
Ref: 493 / 69
Hale looks to have been her maiden name.
Monica
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Possible marriage for Elizabeth?
SAMUEL SEFFEN
and
ELIZABETH WILSO. HALE
1899
493 / 130
Bonhill
One possible child born with mother's maiden name given as Hale:
THOMAS WATSON H SEFFEN
Mother's maiden name HALE
1902
493 / 160
Bonhill
Monica
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The 1901 census entry that Alan mentioned earlier:
Thomas S Hale 24 shoemaker b. Muirkirk, Ayrshire
Rachael Hale 21
Robert C Hale 5 Months
Elizabeth Peffon 30 Visitor married b. Glasgow (surname as transcribed by A/try. Find my past have it as Seffen).
Address 24 Dillichip Terrace, Bonhill
I think Thomas Hale and Elizabeth were siblings.
Entry from 1881:
Robert Hale 38 farm servant b. Ireland
Janet Hale 37 b. Strathaven, Lanarkshire
Registration Number 465
Elizabeth Hale 11 b. Glasgow
Robert Hale 9
John Hale 6
Thomas Hale 4 b. Muirkirk, Ayrshire
Hugh Hale 1
Address Jellyholm Cottages, Alloa, Clackmannanshire
You can get confirmation of Elizabeth's parents from her marriage registration from 1899.
Monica
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This connects to Samuel Seffen, Elizabeth's husband. His army service papers confirm his details and his 1899 marriage to Elizabeth Wilson Hale.
His 1903 marriage in Blythswood, Glasgow was to a Catherine McMahon or McGregor (2 separate index entries under either surname). Ref 644 / 7 / 269.
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LOL I dont know if im actually related to him thats why I need to see census in them days when children got boarded out it was usually with family a bigamist is not so bad i have lots of skeletons in my closet
Thanks Izzy
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I GOT 1921 CENSUS
Elizabeth Hale Seffen 57
Margaret Lyons 11
James Lyons 9
No sign of poor Mary their sister
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Enjoy the discoveries! More interesting with a few skeletons bouncing around ;)
I think the family of Samuel may have been the one that Alan also mentioned as being in Bonhill in 1901. The family in 1891. Everyone showing as born in Ireland. Samuel had enlisted in the army by now and at barracks in 1891. His enlistment papers show him born in Belfast also in 1891 he shows Glasgow:
Henry Seffer 48 Fireman Steam Boilers
Eliza Jane Seffer 46
Henry Seffon 27
John Seffer 25
Rachael Seffer 11
Robert Seffon 9
James Seffon 7 b, Glasgow
James Hamill 26 Lodger (Eliza Jane's maiden name was Hamill)
Address 20 Dillichip Ter, Bonhill
The marriage cert from 1899 for Samuel and Elizabeth will help you confirm.
Monica
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I GOT 1921 CENSUS
Elizabeth Hale Seffen 57
Margaret Lyons 11
James Lyons 9
No sign of poor Mary their sister
Were you hoping for all three together? How old was Mary? Where were they born?
Monica
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...Just to finish off on the bigamy action. Elizabeth Hale did go on to divorce Samuel Seffen. See clip below from the Edinburgh Evening News on 17 October 1908:
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Hi Monica Margaret born 1910,James born 1911 no information on Mary until she gets taken into hospital then goes to live with Seffens no birth for her or anything their mother and father got wed in 1908 I have even looked for a death no luck
izzy
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lol wrong way round margaret born 1910 james 1911 so im guessing mary could be 1912 lol
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Can't easily see Mary's birth entry but are these the entries for James and Margaret?
MARGARET PRYDE LYONS
Mother's maiden name WATSON
1910
644 / 10 / 155
Blythswood (birth also registered at St Rollox)
JAMES WATSON LYONS
Mother's maiden name WATSON
1911
644 / 10 / 920
Blythswood
What mentions do you have of Mary on records?
Monica
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Thank you Monica
I have some poor law notes ive had from 2006 when my freind went back to get the copies we were not allowed them because of data protection.
On the notes 19th march 1912 children Mary and James were admitted to stobhill on 22nd April Margaret was admitted Ruchhill
28th MAY Margaret Lyons to stobhill measles
16 November transfered to Belvedere.
30th July James taken to Belvedere Dytheria
7th Feb 1914 Margaret and Mary transfered the c/o seffer [seffen] 229 Main street Bonhill
I Have not found ant records on mary before or after not even birthcertificate
I think i would be able to get these poor law applications now do you happen to know where I will get them from
Thank you Izzy
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Izzy, poor relief applications and records for the Glasgow area are held at the Mitchell Library there. See www.glasgowlife.org.uk/libraries/venues/the-mitchell-library
See also on the site www.glasgowlife.org.uk/libraries/venues/the-mitchell-library/family-history-at-the-mitchell
Have you found William and wife Jeanie on the 1921 census?
Monica
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Have you found the Lyons family on the 1911 census?
From the dates you have for hospital admissions for the children in early 1912, likely Mary was born before Margaret, with Margaret born in 1910 and James 1911?
Monica
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I have thought Mary was born first and could possibly be Maria as that was Jeanies mothers name but been looking again today and nothing lol mystery
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Monica I have found Jeanie on 1921 census but she is no longer with William Lyons he is in a mental hospital she is living with Henry Rossini who had a wife in the same hospital,on the cencus she has a child David Mcquire age 8 he was born in 1914 in Aberdeen and she later had3 children to Henry Rossini my mum being one born 1925
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Monica do you know if i would be able to ring up mitchell libary and order copies of the poor law items i think the is 13 or more Thanks Izzy
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You certainly can, Izzy. Many people do make enquiries like these as they simply can't get in to do the searches themselves.
The key thing is you know they exist as you have the info you have already! Get your info altogether: addresses, years, names etc. You can them help them in their searches this way to find all the possible info.
If there are more complete records for the family (and there should be given the arrangements made for the children) you hopefully will be able to find more details from these records. Also additional updates may have been added to the children's files and Jeanie & William.
Do you know when William Lyons died? Jeanie was later wasn't she? 1957 from the records. Did she remarry a Mr Rossini? Added: missed you previous post on this :P All clear for that then.
Now, with Jeanie's mum being called Maria, does make sense that there would be a daughter called Mary/Maria.
Monica
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...on the cencus she has a child David Mcquire age 8 he was born in 1914 in Aberdeen
Must be this birth entry for him:
David Gregory Watson
1913
168 / 1 / 782
St Nicholas, Aberdeen
Duplicate entry with the surname McGuire.
The baby's father must have attended the registrar's office in order for his surname to have been recorded in this was for the child's birth.
Monica
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yes thats him his fathers name was Donald
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Thanks Monica
it all sounds a bit complicated a freind did the original research and she said it was the sadest poor law applications she had eer seen my mum didnt know these children existed until i told her she always thought she was jeanies only daughter.
I want to find out what happened to the children and more about the life jeanie had before meeting my grandfather they never married were due to marry after my grandfathers divorce was final but he died 1939
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These records can be tragic for sure. More importantly, life was so hard for many.
Margaret b. 1910 is easier to follow up on. She was proud of the PRYDE middle name she had and it comes up on her birth, marriage and death registrations. She looks to have remained living with Elizabeth Seffen and gives her address at the time of her marriage in 1930 in Bonhill. Note also she by then also went by the surname of Seffen and said both her parents were deceased. This makes me think that Elizabeth Seffen gave them a stable life. See below:
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Her death registration shows as:
MARGARET PRYDE LYONS or HUGHES
73
Mother's maiden name WATSON
1983
503 / 302
Vale Of Leven
Monica
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Same situation with brother James. Easier to find as his death was also registered with the middle name of Watson. His sister Margaret's husband reported the death by drowning.
As with Margaret, he was also known as James Seffen and showed as living at 229 Main Street Bonhill when he died (although the death was registered in Port Glasgow). His parents also shown as deceased. This makes me think that there was likely zero contact between the children and Jeanie Watson after they went to live with Elizabeth Seffen.
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Thank you Monica I bought the one for James and the the added court doc.
I seen the one from Margaret too i think she had a son William Hale Hughes 1932.
i wonder if Mary has a different surname ive tried Watson
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Monica did you notice on both certificates Jeanie is deceased william lyons was by then 1929 he died
in Gartcosh Asylum total mad man
Izzy
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Yes, I did. That is what made me think they had cut off all ties with their parents likely. Specially as they also by now seemed to go by the name of Seffen.
Monica
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Baby Mary is still AWOL!
Poor relief records can include date of birth or at least ages when an entry was made to these records.
Like you, can't easily see anything so far under Watson, in case she was born before mother Jeanie's marriage in 1908.
Also tried searching as Maria/e like Jeanie's mum.
Monica
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Really strange im really feeling sorry for this Mary did you get my email im useless on computers
butevery few years i go back to my tree so this time im leaving the other names alone and concentrating on jeanie and lyons kids
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Just seen the email. Will have a read :)
Monica
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Thank you so much for all your help Monica.
Izzy
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Glad to help. I am hooked now! Tragic lives do that to me ::)
I once spent 6 months looking for another Baby Mary ;)
Monica
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lol disappearing Marys Im wondering if she died but under what name but I have looked and nothing
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A number of news reports on the finding of James Seffen or Lyon's body in 1937. This is one from the Hull Daily Mail 18 April 1938. Tragic really. He must have fallen in and nobody saw him fall and then body not found for weeks:
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wow thats james Lyons , ive just been looking for Elizabeth Seffen son
Thomas Watson Hale Seffen b1902
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In England by 1939. Married to a Margaret with one child it seems.
Monica
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This looks like his marriage:
Marriages 1st Qrt 1928
Thomas W H SEFFEN and
Margaret HANLEY
Wigton, Cumberland
10b 757
Monica
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And his death:
Deaths Mar 1961
Thomas W H SEFFEN
Age 57
Leeds
2c 238
At least 3 possible children for them, looking at www.freebmd.org.uk
Births under 100 years ago so won't name them but easy enough to find on Freebmd with mother father and mother's surnames.
Monica
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lol ive just noticed on james birth cert they were living either 7 or 9 INGRAM ST
I will have to wait 17 years to find out if mary is with him lol
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James, Mary's brother, was still living with Elizabeth Seffen up to his death in 1938 going by the address on his death registration.
Mary is still AWOL I think!
If it wasn't for the mention of her name in the poor relief records, it is almost like she didn't ever exist...
Monica
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lol ive just noticed on james birth cert they were living either 7 or 9 INGRAM ST
Ingram Street is in the Blackfriars district in Glasgow. I did check there for the 1911 census for Jeanie and Margaret but no joy. The 1911 census was on the 2 April that year. Nearly 4 months before son James was born at Ingram Street. They could have been anywhere really to be honest.
Monica
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1921 census
Henry Rossini 35
Mary dau 13 y 9m
John son 12
Jeanie Watson 30 housekeeper
James Watson 24 lodger
Isa Watson 13y
David McGuire 8 y