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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Breconshire => Topic started by: RayDen on Monday 18 March 24 16:03 GMT (UK)
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I have Alexander Vallis on the 1861 census:
Name Alexander Vallis
Age 38
Estimated Birth Year abt 1823
Where born Wiltshire, England
Civil Parish or Township Llangynider
County/Island Breconshire
Country Wales
Registration district Crickhowell
Sub-registration district Llangunider
ED, institution, or vessel 5
Household schedule number 165
Piece 4216
Folio 78
Page number 29
Household members
Name Age
Alexander Vallis 38
Ann Vallis 37
Ann Vallis 11
John Vallis 6
Mary Jane Vallis 3
William Bevan 36
I know that there was a daughter Elizabeth (registered Vallice) born Cricjhowell 1863. Elizabeth married in 1886 and her father Alexander is not shown as deceased on the certificate (but he could be?)
However I have not been able to find any census or other information on any of the family (apart from Elizabeth) after the 1861 census. This is obviously something to do with the name Vallis, I have found different registrations names for each of the children and Elizabeth was married with the name Valias.
Would welcome any help in finding further census information.
Ray
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VELLEYS, ANN mmn MATTHEWS
GRO Reference: 1850 M Quarter in CRICKHOWELL Volume 26 Page 313
VALISS, MARY JANE mmn MATTHEWS
GRO Reference: 1857 D Quarter in CRICKHOWELL Volume 11B Page 114
SS
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Possible?
Alexander, son of James, labourer, and Anne Valles baptised 21st September 1823 in Kingston Deverill, Wiltshire.
If this is your Alexander, then it would help to narrow down the birthplace to find him on other census records.
Queenie :)
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Possible marriage
Marriages Sep 1849
Mathews Ann Abergavenny 26 37
Valace Alexander Abergavenny 26 37
SS
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Yes SS I do have that marriage but another variation on the name.
Ray
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1841?
Piece 1183
Folio 6
Page number 7
SS
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There is an interesting family transcribed Paine (looks correct on image)on the 1871 Census (FindMyPast) address Queen Victoria, LLangunider, Crickhowell.
Lots of similarities although head is GEORGE b 1823 Wiltshire
William Bevan also there lodger.
Cathy
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1881
George Payne b Wiltshire, a furnaceman and family
Dukes Town by the Moulders Arms, Llangynider
Cathy
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There is an interesting family transcribed Paine (looks correct on image)on the 1871 Census (FindMyPast) address Queen Victoria, LLangunider, Crickhowell.
Lots of similarities although head is GEORGE b 1823 Wiltshire
William Bevan also there lodger.
Cathy
That looks a very good call Cathy. 1871 census has a Margaret
VALEY, MARGARET mmn MATTHEWS
GRO Reference: 1866 J Quarter in CRICKHOWELL Volume 11B Page 128
SS
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George & Ann still alive 1891 census, Ann born Ebbw Vale as per previous census.
Possible deaths
Deaths Sep 1899
Payne George 78 Crickhowell 11b 74
Deaths Jun 1905
Payne Ann 84 Crickhowell 11b 84
SS
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Cathy, I believe that you have the family, don't know how you did it but I think it is them!!! There must be a big secret behind this???
first names, dob, place of birth all match. Did a quick check on the Elizabeth PAINE/PAYNE birth, can't find an equivalent birth in the Breconshire area.
Will do some more checks but think this must be them.
Its not my tree, its one I am doing for a friend, going to be an interesting conversation!!!
Thank you all, Rootschat to the rescue once again. Will let you know if I find the secret!!
Best regards
Ray
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Just did a quick check on the youngest child Margaret on the 1871/1881 census.
Can't find a Margaret Paine/Payne or Tanner, but I did find a Margaret Valey born 1866 Crickhowell, mother confirmed as Mathews from GRO.
Did a quick check and cant find a Valey/Mathews marriage and no other records for a Margaret Valey.
Ray
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Just so they are all together/ mother's maiden name Matthews/ all registered Crickhowell
Ann Velleys 1850
John Valis 1855
Mary Jane Valiss 1857
Margaret Vallice 1861 died 1862
Elizabeth Vallice 1863
Margaret Valey 1866
There is a 4 year gap between 1850 and 1855 and another gap between 1857-1861.
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There is another family named Vallis plus variations in Merthyr Tydfil about the same time.
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Thank you amondg, appreciate the time taken. There is another child that I have not been able to find. There is a Alice on the 1881 census. Her dob given as 1868, but she was'nt on the 1871 census? Tried search for Vallis (and other interpretations) and Payne/Paine, etc. But not found her.
Ray
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It looks as though 14 has been crossed out and 3 written for Alice. I would say 1878 perhaps
Where is Aberlay/Aberley ? that's where it says she was born.
Could she be a granddaughter instead of daughter. if born 1878 either daughter Ann or Mary Jane could be the mother.
ADDED
IF I found the correct George and Ann Payne.
1891 census she is Alice Ann 13 years old and a grand daughter born Abertillery Monmouthshire
1901Alice Payne 23 with grandmother Ann age 79
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Quick and accurate reply amondg, you are correct, just found the 1901 census where Alice is Head and her grandmother Ann is living with her. I need to slow down and look more closely.
Thank you
Ray
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Found her
GRO index
September quarter 1877 vol 11A page 84 reg. Bedwelty VALEYS, Alice Ann
no mother's maiden name listed so illegitimate
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Thanks amondg, just caught up with you. Need the birth certificate to confirm but think this is correct.
Just trying to get my head around why the name change on the census??
Ray
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Check newspapers, something happened either in this family or a related one.
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Found her
GRO index
September quarter 1877 vol 11A page 84 reg. Bedwelty VALEYS, Alice Ann
no mother's maiden name listed so illegitimate
Believe she married as below
Marriages Sep 1903
Payne Alice Ann Bedwelty 11a 205
Williams David Bedwelty 11a 205
Children.
WILLIAMS, ELIZABETH ANN PAYNNE
GRO Reference: 1903 D Quarter in CRICKHOWELL Volume 11B Page 89
WILLIAMS, DAVID JOHN PAYNE
GRO Reference: 1908 J Quarter in CRICKHOWELL Volume 11B Page 87
1911 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7JC-1GN
SS
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1921. look for additional children
WILLIAMS, JENNIE PAYNE
GRO Reference: 1912 J Quarter in CRICKHOWELL Volume 11B Page 160
WILLIAMS, ALICE MAY PAYNE (Alice M in 1921)
GRO Reference: 1913 J Quarter in CRICKHOWELL Volume 11B Page 156
SS
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Following on from the 1841 that SS found where Ann and children are together including Alexander.
1851 children born Kingston Deverill, Wiltshire
Kingston Deverill, Wiltshire
Ann Vallis 51 Head Alverstone, Hampshire
James Vallis 21 Son
Robert Vallis 19 Son
Samuel Vallis 15 Son
Abi Vallis 9 Daughter
Elizabeth D Vallis 2 Daughter
Robert marries and is living Monmouthshire alternates between Vallis (variant) & Payne (variant) not checked others but think it may relate to parents marriage. There is also a baptism for Robert, same as Queenie found for Alexander - not checked others.
Robert Vallice
Baptism Date 12 Jun 1832
Baptism Place Kingston Deverill, Wiltshire, England
Father James Vallice
Mother Anne Vallice
Parents likely marriage?
Name Ann Payne
Record Type Marriage
Marriage Date 30 Apr 1820
Marriage Place Titchfield, Southampton, England
Spouse James Valless
Cas
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As per previous post re 1851 census
VALLICE, ABI PAYNE
GRO Reference: 1842 M Quarter in MERE Volume 08 Page 388
SS
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1871
Tredegar Monmouthshire
Robert Payne 38 Head
Mercy Payne 36 Wife
Harriet Payne 12 Daughter
George Payne 10 Son
John Payne 7 son
Ann Payne 4 Daughter
Tom Payne 2 Son
1861
Radstock Somerset
Robert Valles 29 Head
Mercy Valles 26 Wife
James Valles 4 Son
Harriet Valles 2 Daughter
Possible marriage
Marriages Dec 1856
Mullard Mercy Ann Abergavenny 11a 192
Valles Robert Abergavenny 11a 192
VALLIS, HARRIET ANN mmn MILLARD
GRO Reference: 1859 J Quarter in CLUTTON Volume 05C Page 700
Cas
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Thanks Cas, following your links, by 1891 census family reverted back to Valless, with Roberts death in 1908.
It looks like the whole family changed the name for some reason, not just line I am following. It also looks like the name taken is the mother of the family Ann Payne.
I have found the marriage of Ann Payne to James Valless in Titchfield, Southampton, England, 30 April 1820.
I have searched Welshnewspapers online for any "unusual activity" but with he number of variations of the name have had no luck.
Ray
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Have you checked wills in Wiltshire for the name Payne, there may have been a request to change the
name in order to inherit.
Stranger things can happen.
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1851 children born Kingston Deverill, Wiltshire
Kingston Deverill, Wiltshire
Ann Vallis 51 Head Alverstone, Hampshire (recorded as a Widow)
James Vallis 21 Son
Robert Vallis 19 Son
Samuel Vallis 15 Son
Abi Vallis 9 Daughter
Elizabeth D Vallis 2 Daughter
Probable death of Ann Vallis nee' Payne
VALLESS, ANN aged 53
GRO Reference: 1852 S Quarter in MERE Volume 05A Page 148
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Births Jun 1848
VALLESS Elizabeth Day Mere 8 439
Cannot find on GRO index to establish mmn. However if Ann was her mother as indicated by 1851 census she would have been aged approx 48.
SS
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Info only,
Abi Vallis married George Annan 8th December 1875. Her father recorded as James Vallis - occupation Farmer.
1881 census.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q273-NLF3
Abi Annan died aged 87 in 1929.
SS
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Samuel Vallis born c1836
Married
Marriages Dec 1858
Jones Margaret Crickhowell 11b 268
Valless Samuel Crickhowell 11b 268
Births of 1 child:
VALLES, JOHN SAMUEL mmn JONES
GRO Reference: 1860 S Quarter in CRICKHOWELL Volume 11B Page 119
1861 census surname Paine
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7TK-8X5
1871 census ref 5323 71 2 Recorded as Samuel PAIN
SS
added:
1891 census ref 4452 61 84
1901 census ref 5044 38 67
Death
Deaths Jun 1906
Payne Samuel aged 71 Bridgend 11a 429
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Thanks SS, There must have been something traumatic for all the families to change their names.
Samuel is the only one I have found who changes his name on the 1861 census. Alexander and Robert changed their names on the 1871 census. The other son James never married and never changed his name, and is the only one to have remained in Wiltshire.
Ray