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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: shelleyf on Friday 22 March 24 03:49 GMT (UK)
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I have a record for a Catholic marriage in September 1881 between Francis Bennett and Ellen Caffrey. They both list their address as Hanover Place, Walter Street, Liverpool.
I'm wondering how to find this address in the 1881 census to see if they were living there at the time. I’ve searched both of them in the 1881 census but can’t find either.
According to a 1901 census record, which I think is them, Francis was born in Liverpool and Ellen was born in Ireland.
The marriage record gives the fathers as Denis Bennett and James Caffrey. McCaffrey/McAffrey could be an alternative spelling. Witnesses to the marriage were Joanne (John?) Duffy of Dundalk and Mary Ann Caffrey, also from Hanover Place, Walter Street.
Shelley
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Maybe it is Watter Street, although I can’t find one. Or is it a misspelling of Water Street.
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It is Hanover Place, Walter Street as shown on this Town Map but I can't see Hanover Place on the 1881 census :-\ https://maps.nls.uk/view/229948098#zoom=6&lat=8988&lon=11233&layers=BT Possibly just listed under Walter Street?
Kay
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There is a James Caffrey age 40 b Ireland living at a Court - No 3 on Water St in 1881 wife Ellen and children Mary A 20, Lizzie 15, Maggie 13, James 10 and Bridget 10??
Kay
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I think it is Walter Street.
Liverpool Mercury 9th August 1881
An advert for a sale of:
Twelve dwelling houses, two being Nos. 3 and 4 Walter street, Great Howard-street, and ten being in No. 4 court or Hanover-place, Liverpool.
I used FindMyPast address search to find Walter Street in 1881. I haven't searched extensively, and the house numbering is confusing, but I did see a Caffrey family so I'll use that as an entry point:
James Caffrey 40
Court 3 House, 4 Walter Street
RG11
piece 3603
folio 152
page 43
schedule 1372
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I found the same family too but Kay pipped me to it.
The address is 4 Court, house number 3.
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Shelley,
I don’t see children to your couple so perhaps you are searching other members of those families.
Here is a baptism of Ellen Cafrey - parents James and Ellen Quin in Dundalk - 25th February 1863
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632583#page/195/mode/1up
There are baptisms for other children listed in 1881 and a birth for Bridget McCaffrey here
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1874/03138/2151060.pdf
There is a possibility for Ellen at 1881 3619/35/16
Ellen M McCaffery , a nurse, in Brownlow Street
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A map view (town plan 1891) of the same site as identified in reply #2 showing the Hanover Place site labelled as Court No. 4. Unlike the earlier map (reply #2), where the street to the east is Lightbody Street with Molyneuxs Place, Esther's Place, and Elizabeth Place, on this 1891 map Walter Street continues to the east and has courts 1, 3 and 5. No sign of court 2 that I can see.
https://tinyurl.com/2h82e233 (https://tinyurl.com/2h82e233)
Added: correction Lightbody Street is still there in 1891 and see a later reply for the location of court 2.
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Thanks for that link to the map, Kay.
It is Hanover Place, Walter Street as shown on this Town Map but I can't see Hanover Place on the 1881 census :-\ https://maps.nls.uk/view/229948098#zoom=6&lat=8988&lon=11233&layers=BT Possibly just listed under Walter Street?
Kay
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Court no 2 is behind the Stanley Inn.
It seems an odd way of numbering the Courts.
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Thanks Kay. Those names match up to the children I have found in Louth for James Caffrey and Ellen Quinn.
There is a James Caffrey age 40 b Ireland living at a Court - No 3 on Water St in 1881 wife Ellen and children Mary A 20, Lizzie 15, Maggie 13, James 10 and Bridget 10??
Kay
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Thanks for the info, Alan. And thanks for the reminder to use FindMyPast to search using the address. I always forget about that.
I think it is Walter Street.
Liverpool Mercury 9th August 1881
An advert for a sale of:
Twelve dwelling houses, two being Nos. 3 and 4 Walter street, Great Howard-street, and ten being in No. 4 court or Hanover-place, Liverpool.
I used FindMyPast address search to find Walter Street in 1881. I haven't searched extensively, and the house numbering is confusing, but I did see a Caffrey family so I'll use that as an entry point:
James Caffrey 40
Court 3 House, 4 Walter Street
RG11
piece 3603
folio 152
page 43
schedule 1372
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Thanks heywood.
I found the same family too but Kay pipped me to it.
The address is 4 Court, house number 3.
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Heywood, thanks for the info. Some more things for me to follow up. Yes, no children that I can see. I’m intrigued by the similarities in names. My 2x great grandfather Francis Bennett (b abt 1832 in Ireland) was the son of Denis Bennett and Hannah Hanlon. They were in Liverpool after about 1840. My Francis emigrated to Australia in 1860s.
Shelley,
I don’t see children to your couple so perhaps you are searching other members of those families.
Here is a baptism of Ellen Cafrey - parents James and Ellen Quin in Dundalk - 25th February 1863
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632583#page/195/mode/1up
There are baptisms for other children listed in 1881 and a birth for Bridget McCaffrey here
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1874/03138/2151060.pdf
There is a possibility for Ellen at 1881 3619/35/16
Ellen M McCaffery , a nurse, in Brownlow Street
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deleted
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The house numbering is confusing
In some cities the names of yards and courts were changed to numbers between the two Ordnance Survey town plan series of the 1850s and the 1880-90s. In other cities that did not happen. The census transcripts seem to struggle to give a correct address from the numbers. Addresses in council documents are usually in the form "4 Court, 3 House, Walter Street", which is actually an illogical order.
Often abbreviated to "4Ct 3Ho Walter Street", which baffles the transcribers.
I have sent corrections to Findmypast with a detailed explanation and they are usually good at responding, but not over this. They may interpret 4Ct as a house NAME!
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Thank you, Alan. I love these old maps.
Shelley
A map view (town plan 1891) of the same site as identified in reply #2 showing the Hanover Place site labelled as Court No. 4. Unlike the earlier map (reply #2), where the street to the east is Lightbody Street with Molyneuxs Place, Esther's Place, and Elizabeth Place, on this 1891 map Walter Street continues to the east and has courts 1, 3 and 5. No sign of court 2 that I can see.
https://tinyurl.com/2h82e233 (https://tinyurl.com/2h82e233)
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Ah yes, I did wonder about that one.
There is a possibility for Ellen at 1881 3619/35/16
Ellen M McCaffery , a nurse, in Brownlow Street
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Thanks for the info, Molly. All very confusing (to me at least). Appreciate that you are trying to correct these things.
Shelley
The house numbering is confusing
In some cities the names of yards and courts were changed to numbers between the two OS town plan series of the 1850s and the 1880-90s. In other cities that did not happen. The census transcripts seem to struggle to give a correct address from the numbers. Addresses in council documents are in the form
"3 Court, 4 House, Walter Street", which is actually an illogical order. Often abbreviated to "3Ct 4Ho Walter Street", which baffles the transcribers.
I have sent corrections to Findmypast with a detailed explanation and they are usually good at responding, but not over this. They may interpret 3Ct as a house NAME!
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I first came across these while looking at council slum clearance order papers in the 1920s-30s, which have detailed schedules and plans of compulsory purchase orders. Then worked back to see where they had originated.
I compare it with flats, it's like saying:
3rd tower block, No. 4 flat, Walter Street
(added) The houses were usually numbered consecutively, clockwise around the court.
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Very interesting, Molly.
I first came across these while looking at council slum clearance order papers in the 1920s-30s, which have detailed schedules of compulsory purchase orders. Then worked back to see where they had originated.
I compare it with flats, it's like saying:
3rd tower block, No. 4 flat, Walter Street
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Court no 2 is behind the Stanley Inn.
It seems an odd way of numbering the Courts.
Thanks. How did I miss it!
It’s Grecian Place on the older map.
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Here are the two town plans side by side:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01t2n/
The LH one was surveyed 1848, published 1850, BUT revised 1864.
A note at the bottom centre says "New Railways, Docks, Houses, &c. inserted in 1864."
The RH one was surveyed 1890, published 1891.
Tried to find an unrevised 1848 survey, but the 6-inch edition online also has the same dates. The NLS probably holds the earlier versions somewhere. Always read the notes around the edge!