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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Road Runner on Tuesday 02 April 24 13:45 BST (UK)
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Hello All,
I am searching for information on Alice Kershaw Musk who was born in 1878 in Rawtenstall to mother, Elizabeth Musk.
In 1899 Alice married John Alfred Harwood. I can follow her through the 1901 census onwards to her death, however I cannot find her or her mother in the 1881 and 1891 census.
A fresh pair of eyes would be appreciated.
Kind regards
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Rawtenstalll is in the registration district of Haslingden. Have you looked for a marriage for Elizabeth and then subsequent census records?
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Debra :)
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Thanks for the reply.
There are a number of Elizabeth Musk's in that area of Haslingden that married after 1878 and I have been trawling through the names as you have suggested, but nothing stands out at the moment.
Thanks
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Did Alice name a father on her marriage?
Is there a specific residence on her marriage?
Who were the witnesses to the marriage?
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Hello,
The birth certificate has father name left blank and I've only just ordered the marriage certificate. She was born in Lord Street, Rawtenstall in Jan 1878.
The only clue could be her middle name Kershaw if it was the father's surname.
Thanks
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1881 census
2 Crabtree buildings, coupe-lench and Newhallhey and Hall Carr, Haslingden.
Ann Kershaw 58
Christopher
John
ELIZABETH J 20
Jane
ELIZABETH KERSHAW 3 granddaughter
1891 census
Alma Cottages, 24 Hall Carr, haslingden.
Ann 66
John
Jane
Alice 13 daughter
Could Elizabeth in 1881 be the same person as Alice in 1891.
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Hello,
The birth certificate has father name left blank and I've only just ordered the marriage certificate. She was born in Lord Street, Rawtenstall in Jan 1878.
The only clue could be her middle name Kershaw if it was the father's surname.
Thanks
Lancs opc has the baptism of Charles Musk 1880, (born 1878) son of Amelia Musk, single woman, Lord Street
In 1881 4131 /104/ 42
Amelia Musk is with parents and siblings etc in Richard Street off Lord Street.
There may well be a connection.
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1871 1596 /23/22
Newmarket, Suffolk
Robert and Pamela Musk have a daughter Elizabeth but no Amelia with them.
However, there are births in Newmarket, for Elizabeth, 1854 and Amelia 1856 with mmn Brooks.
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Hello Heywood,
That's a very interesting line to follow. Thanks very much for the information.
Regards
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Alice Kershaw Musk birth registration Mar qtr 1878.
Charles Musk birth registration Jun qtr 1878.
Both no mmn . Both Haslingden
Could they have been siblings registered seperately. The time limit is a bit tight though.
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Another one. Registered Mar qtr 1876 Haslingden. No mmn.
Lancs OPC
Baptism: 20 Mar 1887 St Mary, Rawtenstall, Lancashire
Frederick George Musk - [Child] of Amelia Musk
Born: 19 Dec 1875
Abode: Rawtenstall
Occupation: Winder
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I can’t see a birth which fits for Elizabeth/Alice Kershaw from the censuses posted by middlesbrough earlier.
Perhaps the father of Alice K Musk was a Kershaw and raised her.
There is a marriage for Elizabeth Musk and Henry Allen, later in 1878.
They are in Bury in 1881 3862/58/42 but no sign of Alice.
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As previous post
1881 census
2 Crabtree buildings, coupe-lench and Newhallhey and Hall Carr, Haslingden.
Ann Kershaw 58
Christopher
John
ELIZABETH J 20
Jane
ELIZABETH KERSHAW 3 granddaughter
Births
KERSHAW, CHRISTOPHER MARSDEN
GRO Reference: 1854 J Quarter in BLACKBURN Volume 08E Page 346
KERSHAW, ELIZABETH JANE MARSDEN
GRO Reference: 1861 M Quarter in BLACKBURN Volume 08E Page 334
Possible marriage of Elizabeth
Marriages Jun 1887
Barnes George Haslingden 8e 231
DEWHURST Alice Haslingden 8e 231
Kershaw Elizabeth Jane Haslingden 8e 231
Pickles George William Haslingden 8e 231
SS
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Alice Kershaw Musk birth registration Mar qtr 1878.
Charles Musk birth registration Jun qtr 1878.
Both no mmn . Both Haslingden
Could they have been siblings registered seperately. The time limit is a bit tight though.
Roadrunner has the birth for Alice - mother Elizabeth.
As posted before, there is a baptism for Charles - mother Amelia.
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1861 Suffolk
Robert Musk 30 Head
Pamela Musk 31Wife
Elizabeth Musk 6 Daughter
Amelia Musk 4 Daughter
Thomas Musk 2 Son
Amelia Musk marries Ambrose Price in 1887 and is found with Robert and Pamela in 1901.
Not sure if this is helpful 🙄
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Hello All,
The Robert and Pamela Musk with daughters Amelia and Elizabeth looks promising.
Amelia had two children before she married Ambrose Price in 1887
In 1861 census Elizabeth is 6 yrs. and Amelia 4 yrs.
In 1871 census Elizabeth is still with the family 16 yrs. but no Amelia.
In 1881 census Amelia is back with the family with sons Frederick G. and Charles Musk.
In 1891 census Amelia and Ambrose living with her 2 children, her parents Robert and Pamela, and brother Walter.
No sign of Elizabeth since the 1871 census.
I’ll keep digging
Thanks
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1881 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27G-KVXQ
Birth
ALLEN, JOHN mmn MUSK
GRO Reference: 1880 M Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 08E Page 112
SS
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Reply #11 - the Allens are in Bury in 1881.
:) I see you have linked it
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Hopefully, Alice’s marriage certificate will yield some information - residence and witnesses.
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Going a little off piste here.
ALLEN, AMELIA mmn MUSK
GRO Reference: 1881 D Quarter in BURY LANCASHIRE Volume 08C Page 475.
By 1900 US census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DCVW-WSX?view=index&personArk=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AM95P-SMC&action=view
Also on previous image a William Appleby
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/22823603:7602
Death of Amelia Appleby 15th December 1948(dob 20th September 1881) Toronto, Canada. (image on Anc)
Father Henry Allen, mother Elizabeth Unknown.
Possible sailing of the Allen family in 1884 to Nova Scotia though ages a little out
Marriage
Name Amelia Allen
Age 18
Birth Year abt 1882
Birth Place Yorkshire, England
Marriage Date 11 Jul 1900
Marriage Place New Bedford, Massachusetts, USA
Father
Henry Allen
Mother
Elizabeth Musk
Spouse
William Appleby
Can anyone find Henry/Elizabeth/John / Amelia in 1891 census?
SS
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Do you mean 1891 Canadian census?
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Sorry Heywood 1891 uk census
SS
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Maybe
1891 census - Canada
Elizabeth - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MWKV-XBP
Henry - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MWKV-XBG
John - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MWKV-XB5
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Maybe
1891 census - Canada
Elizabeth - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MWKV-XBP
Henry - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MWKV-XBG
John - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MWKV-XB5
Is this the full family
Henry Allin33Head
Elizabeth Allin36Wife
John Allin12Son
Mary Allin9Daughter
Willie Allin7Son
Gertrude Allin3
James Allin4/12Son
Check them out in 1901.
Elizabeth birth date 3 Nov 1854.
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Yes, that’s right.
Presumably, Amelia found by SS earlier, is Mary, aged 9 yrs in 1891.
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Well found folks, still in New Brunswick in 1921
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Henry Allen 65 Head
Elizabeth Allen 67 Wife
Gertrude Allen 31 Daughter
Charles Allen 27 Son
Interesting when Gertrude married in 1932 she named her mother as Elizabeth CHARLOTTE Musk
SS
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Elizabeth still going strong in 1931 (as a widow) so Henry died between 1921-31
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHN-GQ59-1XQR?view=index&personArk=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3A6RSL-YQ5V&action=view
SS
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Hello All,
Thank you all for your input. The problem is that there are several Elizabeth Musk's that married after the birth of Alice so knowing which one is Alice's mother, Elizabeth is unclear.
If I can discover where Elizabeth and Alice were between 1881 and 1901 then it may give a clue as to Elizabeth's age and place of birth.
Once again thanks to all for their input.
Regards
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That’s what we are trying to do.
Have you followed the other Elizabeth Musks for any information?
The main link at the moment is that you say Alice was born in Lord Street. Who was the informant? Was it Elizabeth herself?
We then have the 1880 baptism of Amelia Musk's child - address Lord Street.
There is then the sighting of a Kershaw child who may/not be of relevance.
Hopefully, Alice’s marriage certificate may have some useful information.
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Lancs opc marriages
August 1879
Thomas Henry Musk, 20 yrs, Lord Street - father Robert
Elizabeth Collinge
1883
Alfred Zachariah Musk , father William and Mary Ann Heap
1887
Ambrose Price and Amelia Musk - father Robert., Lord Street
A witness is Elizabeth Musk but could be Thomas’ wife (see above)
The one we have followed to Canada, married Henry Allen in 1878 at either at the Registrars or registrar attended the church wedding.
You would need the certificate to see if she is the daughter of Robert and sister to Amelia with Lord Street a possible connection.
The Canada passenger record has her as Eliza
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01t3c/
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The 1901 census Canada has Elizabeth Allen born 3 November 1854
Birth registration Elizabeth Musk mmn Brook is Dec qtr 1854.
You need birth and marriage certificates to confirm.
So far I found no deaths for Henry or Elizabeth in Canada.
They would give birth dates.
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Robert Musk married Pamela Brooks in Newmarket, 1853
That places Elizabeth Musk Allen, we think, in the family who were living around Lord Street.
There were other Musk families around Newchurch from Cambridgeshire/Suffolk so perhaps all related.
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1871 has these:
Eliza Musk abt 1862 - parents William and Emily
Elizabeth Ann Musk abt 1867 same parents
Elizabeth Musk abt 1866 - parents Fred and Sally
The younger ones could not be mother to Alice.
Robert and Pamela Musk (parents of Amelia and Elizabeth) are in Newchurch in1881.
Grandson, Frederick George was b in Rawtenstall in 1876 so family presumably moved 1871 - 1876.
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Lancs opc marriages
August 1879
Thomas Henry Musk, 20 yrs, Lord Street - father Robert
Elizabeth Collinge
WITNESSES BENJAMIN THOMAS HARGREAVES..AMELIA MUSK
1883
Alfred Zachariah Musk , father William and Mary Ann Heap
1887
Ambrose Price and Amelia Musk - father Robert., Lord Street
A witness is Elizabeth Musk but could be Thomas’ wife (see above)
FULL NAME ON ENTRY. AMELIA MARIA MUSK
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https://www.rootschat.com/links/01t3f/
Find a grave . Pamela Musk.
Read the flower tribute 🙂
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Well fancy that!
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Very interesting comment left by Sheila in the post by Wilcoxon.
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I didn’t want to go off at a tangent but the tree does go back to the right area.
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That’s what we are trying to do.
Have you followed the other Elizabeth Musks for any information?
The main link at the moment is that you say Alice was born in Lord Street. Who was the informant? Was it Elizabeth herself?
We then have the 1880 baptism of Amelia Musk's child - address Lord Street.
There is then the sighting of a Kershaw child who may/not be of relevance.
Hopefully, Alice’s marriage certificate may have some useful information.
Elizabeth Musk herself was the informant, 3 weeks after the birth of her daughter, Alice.
Address given on birth certificate
Pickup Buildings
Lord Street
Rawtenstall
The marriage certificate has only been ordered several days ago so it may well be several weeks before I receive it.
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Let’s hope it helps.
There is a newspaper snippet - Bury Times 1st December 1877 regarding Robert Musk being summoned. It was possibly for neglecting to maintain … but not sure.
Added maintain a daughter
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1881 census
2 Crabtree buildings, coupe-lench and Newhallhey and Hall Carr, Haslingden.
Ann Kershaw 58
Christopher
John
ELIZABETH J 20
Jane
ELIZABETH KERSHAW 3 granddaughter
1891 census
Alma Cottages, 24 Hall Carr, haslingden
Ann 66
John
Jane
Alice 13 daughter
Burial: 18 Jul 1891 Cemetery, Rawtenstall, Lancs.
Pamelia Musk -
Age: 62
Abode: Alma Cottages
Occupation: Housekeeper
Grave: 694
Parish removed from: Cowpe Lenches
A bit of a coincidence.?
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Maybe it isn't such a coincidence.
Looking at the 1891 census Alma Cottages had a lot of residences. Up to at least number 47.
Kershaw at 24
Price at 23
Kershaw at 8
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They are very close though - across the road perhaps.
The Kershaws are at 24 and the Musks are at 23 in 1891.
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Finally the wedding certificate has arrived.
The wedding was held at the Register Office, Haslingden, 1899
The brides father's name & occupation were both blank
The witnesses were the grooms brother and mother with no sign of the brides mother present.
The address given for bride and groom was 9 Back Carr Terrace, Rawtenstall
So unfortunately there's nothing on the certificate to help identify her father.
Can anyone spot Alice and her mother Elizabeth on the 1881 and 1891 census.
Thanks
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Not the result hoped for. I and other's will continue to search census.
SS
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In 1901 she is Elizabeth
Elizabeth Harwood Age23 Estimated Birth Year abt 1878 b Rawtenstall
Relation to Head Wife
SpouseJohn Alfred Harwood Birth PlaceRawtenstall, Lancashire, England
Civil parish Rawtenstall formerly Cowpe Lench, Newhall Hey and Hall Carr
Still in Back Carr Terrace
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1911 she is Alice Kershaw, mistranscribed
John Alfred Harwood 36Head
Alice Thershaw Harwood 33Wife
Harold Harwood6 Son
Alice Jane Harwood3 Daughter
Annie Harwood2 Daughter
Jack Harwood1 Son
Not helping much really.
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So is this her? There is no birth for Elizabeth/Alice Kershaw
1881 census
2 Crabtree buildings, coupe-lench and Newhallhey and Hall Carr, Haslingden.
Ann Kershaw 58
Christopher
John
ELIZABETH J 20
Jane
ELIZABETH KERSHAW 3 granddaughter
1891 census
Alma Cottages, 24 Hall Carr, haslingden.
Ann 66
John
Jane
Alice 13 daughter
Could Elizabeth in 1881 be the same person as Alice in 1891.
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Info only, having established the exact dob 21.6.1918 of our Cyril and his disappearance after 1921.
Death of a Cyril Smith, dq 1994 Staffordshire dob 21.6.1918
SS
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Hello Heywood,
Looking at your last post (#47) I initially thought this was a good possibility however on Alice’s birth cert it does give mother, Elisabeth’s surname as Musk with no father’s name so unfortunately, I do not think this is her since Elizabeth is a Kershaw. But many thanks for your reply.
After weeks of searching for Alice in the 1881 and 1891 census, I have found absolutely no trace of her or her mother.
Regards
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Hi All,
Having completely failed to locate Alice in either the 1881 or 1891 census and clutching at straws, I wonder if anyone has access to Lancashire Archive Library who would be in a position to look up the Bastardly Orders that the hold to see if an order was made against her biological father for her support.
Thanks
From the Ntional Archives:-
Bastardy Orders
This record is held by Lancashire Archives
See contact details
Reference: PSBk/3
Title: Bastardy Orders
Description:
original bundles
Held by: Lancashire Archives, not available at The National Archives
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Hello Heywood,
Looking at your last post (#47) I initially thought this was a good possibility however on Alice’s birth cert it does give mother, Elisabeth’s surname as Musk with no father’s name so unfortunately, I do not think this is her since Elizabeth is a Kershaw. But many thanks for your reply.
After weeks of searching for Alice in the 1881 and 1891 census, I have found absolutely no trace of her or her mother.
Regards
Hello again,
Sorry, I was not saying that the older Elizabeth is the mother.
I was querying whether the child, Elizabeth Kershaw , 3 yrs, in 1881 4135/23/40 with grandmother, Ann Kershaw and the child Alice Kershaw in 1891 (described as daughter) is the same person.
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Hello Heywood,
It is interesting that in the 1881 census an Elizabeth is the grand-daughter age 3 but the 1891 shows an Alice aged 13, now daughter. As you say I believe they are both one and the same person.
What is stuck in my mind is that Alice Kershaw Musk uses her full name on the marriage certificate, is still living in Rawtenstall, but has no family member as a witness. They are both from the grooms family.
Hopefully there will be a breakthrough one day.
Many thanks for your help.
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Yes, I agree it is odd. If she was raised in the Kershaw family, you would think there may be a Kershaw member as a witness.
I am just looking back over, it is interesting that in 1901, she is Elizabeth and in 1911 she is Alice.
If I have understood that correctly.
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Yes it is odd but it cerainly look like it was an error and they are the same person.
I don't think this Elizabeth who possibly could be Alice's mother is the person I am looking for because Alice's birth certificate does give mother's maiden name as Musk and not Kershaw.
Thanks
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Which Elizabeth do you mean?
I don’t think anyone has suggested anyone for her mother, other than a possibility of the Elizabeth Musk who married and emigrated.
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Yes it is odd but it cerainly look like it was an error and they are the same person.
I don't think this Elizabeth who possibly could be Alice's mother is the person I am looking for because Alice's birth certificate does give mother's maiden name as Musk and not Kershaw.
Thanks
What is the exact date of her birth. You have put January but what date.
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Alice's birthday - 23 January 1878. Address Pickup Building, Lord Street, Rawtenstall.
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Alice Harwood b 23 Jan 1878.
Still alive in 1939.
Harold and Jack are with her , also a possible daughter in law Kathleen.
166 Haslington Road.
I think Alice and Elizabeth from earlier 1881 and 1891 are the same person.
She would have been too young in 1881 to give details in the census and possibly her Grandparents just entered their surname.
It's just finding the link between Kershaw and Musk.
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I think you are right re the child Elizabeth/Alice.
It just seems strange that, if she is Alice Kershaw Musk and one of the Kershaws was her father, that she didn’t name him on her marriage.
This is just a thought with no basis but I wonder if there was an agreement before birth that she would be raised by Ann Kershaw, hence the name as a middle name.
Added
I mean that the name Kershaw was given to her even though her father might not have been a Kershaw - just part of an agreement.
It seems though as if it will never be solved.
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Hello Haywood,
The thought had crossed my mind that perhaps her mother Elizabeth was a Kershaw but it was the father who was a Musk. The only problem with this is that she gave her surname on the birth certificate as Musk. There is a very small chance that she may have lied when registering the birth in order to give the child her father’s name without naming the individual. However, with so many what if’s, I have discounted this theory.
Maybe one day a DNA link will solve the mystery.
Regards
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Yes.
Going off the address, it seems highly likely that she was Elizabeth Musk.
She may then have given the Kershaw name because the father was a Kershaw.
Then it becomes unusual if the child is the one we think was raised by ‘grandmother Ann Kershaw’, why did she marry as Musk. Presumably because she was registered as Musk.
Why was she not raised by a Musk family member, when they lived closeby.
Or, more unlikely, that an informal ‘adoption’ had been arranged prior to birth.
DNA might be the only way as you say.
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After quite a bit of searching I have come to the conclusion until proved otherwise that Alice Kershaw Musk was the daughter of Elizabeth Jane Kershaw who I believed registered the child stating that she was a Musk giving her daughter her father’s name, hence the Kershaw Musk.
As you have said Alice has been referred to as Alice or Elizabeth on several occasions in the census but they are one and the same.
An Elizabeth Jane Kershaw did marry a George Barnes in Haslingden in 1887 so I will send for the marriage certificate to see if this is Alice’s mother, hopefully by confirming her father’s name as Thomas Kershaw.
Will update when it arrives.
Thanks