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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Davy MacLean on Sunday 07 April 24 11:10 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
Wondering why on this death cert the mother's name would hae been left off? having searched as best as I can, I can't find any name for her? Possible died in child birth hence why left off?
Peter Wade seems to be an enigma as well
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It looks as if the informant (husband) didn’t know the name of his mother in law. He may never have met her.
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According to the 1861 census, Susan was born in Ireland.
This looks like it is her before marriage in 1841
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14e4f0f4040b9d6eeb920b/susan-wade-1841-lanarkshire-glasgow-1821-?locale=en
her brother Robert is also with her in 1851.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a150a0ef4040b9d6e14ae1c/susan-arnot-1851-lanarkshire-glasgow-1828-?locale=en
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Says Ireland on some docs and Edinburgh in others that I've found, She also flips between the name Sara/Suzanna for some reason,
Meets an unpleasent ending
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I don’t see Sara anywhere.
It is Susan on the three census, on her marriage, on her children's baptisms, and on her death.
i think birth place on 1851 census is most likely the incorrect one.
Have you looked at the Catholic baptism records for her children, for godparents names?
have you looked at the Catholic baptism of her brother Robert Wade to see the parents names?
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The 1855 birth registration for daughter Catherine, should give you more detailed information than on other births.
1855 was the first year of registration and is special in the content held on records.
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Thanks Neale
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Nothing showing on the 1855 birth for Susan as it's her husband My 4th great grandad) who registers the birth,
It would have been good if the document was legible as it would have at least given me a lead on where the family come from in Ireland
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I would ask Scotlands People to provide a better quality scan. They usually respond positively.
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I am seeing County Down for David Arnot on that cert, Dave.
Monica
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Thanks it's hard to make out, I read it as town and wasnt sure if something like Randles town?
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New thread here https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=881777.msg7544256
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The good thing I've found that Catherine is her 3rd child (all girls) according to the brith registration, I just need to find out who the other one was as I'm aware that one will be my 3rdx grandmother Elizabeth, 1851&1861 census doesn't show the other sister though,
So I have to assume that's she's born sometime between 1851 and 1855 and possibly dies between 1855-1861
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According to the 1861 census, Susan was born in Ireland.
This looks like it is her before marriage in 1841
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14e4f0f4040b9d6eeb920b/susan-wade-1841-lanarkshire-glasgow-1821-?locale=en
her brother Robert is also with her in 1851.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a150a0ef4040b9d6e14ae1c/susan-arnot-1851-lanarkshire-glasgow-1828-?locale=en
Had a look at that, That's not her brother, If I look at the 1851 census she has a Peter Wade (spelling) aged 17 living with her, I'll assume that's her brother as it ties in with the details on the registration of the birth in Dundee in 1837,
However, once again the mother's details are absent from the register
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It would have been good if the document was legible as it would have at least given me a lead on where the family come from in Ireland
Scotlandspeople will always try their best to provide a clearer copy if you contact them and ask. Just use the 'Report an issue' button when logged on:
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/technical-help/reporting-issues
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Had a look at that, That's not her brother, If I look at the 1851 census she has a Peter Wade (spelling) aged 17 living with her, I'll assume that's her brother as it ties in with the details on the registration of the birth in Dundee in 1837,
Brother is showing as Robert on the 1841 and 1851 censuses, not Peter :-\ Not sure about an occupation showing for the 5 yr old Robert in 1841! This is one entry where looking at the original image on SP would help to clarify.
The child born in 1837 to a Peter Wade in Dundee showing as dead at birth (stillborn):
Wade A Stillborn child [Male] 23.2.1837 Douglasfield Unknown son of Peter Wade, Bleacher at
Douglasfield
http://www.fdca.org.uk/Howff_Burial_Records.html
Monica
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You could follow through on Sarah's 2 sisters, Catherine and Elizabeth. I think this is them in 1851:
James Mckay 35 Old Clothes Broker b. Ireland
Elizabeth Mckay 25 b. Ireland
Isabella Mckay 6 b. Glasgow
James Mckay 4 b. Glasgow
Ann Knox 18 servant b. Glasgow
Catherine Wade 16 Sister-in-law, House Servant, b. Glasgow
Address 36 Bridgegate Street, Glasgow
Monica
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Susan Wade had the following siblings
• Eliza / Elizabeth born in Ireland abt 1828
• Robert born in Glasgow in 1832
• Catherine born in Glasgow abt 1835
Elizabeth Wade married James McKay
This is her in 1851 (Note her younger sister Catherine in with her.)
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a150270f4040b9d6e0c8d55/cathrine-wade-1851-lanarkshire-glasgow-1835-?locale=en
(click on link to open)
There is a death for an Elizabeth (Wade) McKay died in 1890 Bridgeton. Age 59
Mother’s maiden name is Duncan in the index. The certificate is needed to know full parent info.
Robert Wade’s baptism can be found on Scotlands People in the Roman Catholic Register
WADE ROBERT
parents - ROBERT WADE / CATHERINE DUNCAN
MALE 10/3/1832
23/3/1832 GLASGOW, ST ANDREW'S
I have not yet looked to see what became of the sister Catherine.
I think probably both parents died between Catherine’s birth and the 1841 census, which is why you see 8 yr old Robert working in the tobacco trade in the 1841 census.
Remember that ages in the 1841 census were rounded down.
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It is likely that the information (regarding her parents) on Susan Wade's death certificate is not correct.
Clearly her husband either did not know, or was not able to remember correctly.
It is often the case that death certificates hold inaccurate information, as it was reliant on somebody's knowledge or memory.
Considering that Susan had a daughter named Catherine, it is quite probable that she was named after Susan's mother.
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The baptism for the 2 Arnott girls are available on Scotlands People in the Roman Catholic Register
ARNOTT ELIZABETH
parents - DAVID ARNOTT / SUSAN WADE
FEMALE born 14/8/1849
baptised 27/8/1849 GLASGOW, ST ANDREW'S
ARNOTT CATHARINE ANNE
parents - DAVID ARNOTT / SUSAN WAIDE
FEMALE born 19/3/1855
baptised 21/3/1855 GLASGOW, ST MARY'S
Catholic baptism records can sometimes hold useful information about godparents, etc.
Have you looked at these records?
You will see there is a gap between Elizabeth in 1849 and Catherine in 1855, where another child may have been born. Perhaps this was the other daughter – maybe she died before being baptised.
I could not see a Catholic burial for another child.
Nor could I see a burial for Susan Wade's parents.
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Thanks again Neale, really appreciate your help on this
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David Arnott married again in 1870 to Jessie STEWART.
He was a widower, age 43, Tobacco Pipe Maker, 99 Gallow gate Glasgow
His parents were Alexander ARNOT (Rope spinner, deceased) and Elizabeth SHANNON
Using traditional naming patterns, David’s first daughter was named Elizabeth, after his mother,
and his second daughter was named Catherine, after Susan’s mother.
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Regarding David Arnott’s parents – here there are in the census. (click on links to open)
In 1851 Glasgow (Arnott seen as Arnold)
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a150541f4040b9d6e0f88b5/alexander-arnold-1851-lanarkshire-glasgow-1790-?locale=en
(The 3 Dewar children belong to Mary)
In 1841 the family are in the Saltmarket, Glasgow
(Elizabeth Shannon seen as Bessie Shaman, and again Arnott seen as Arnold)
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14ef5ff4040b9d6ef709f7/alexr-arnold-1841-lanarkshire-glasgow-1835-?locale=en
So that is quite a large family, 5 siblings to your David, for you to track down now!
This is the death for Elizabeth (Shannon) Arnott in 1872 (mother’s name Heenan)
SHANNON ELIZABETH 60 mother - HEENAN
F 1872 644 / 10 / 877 HUTCHESONTOWN
ARNOTT ELIZABETH 60 mother - HEENAN
F 1872 644 / 10 / 877 HUTCHESONTOWN
Not so sure about a death for Alexander Arnot.
There is this one (without an age) but in the right area. Might be worth a try?
ARNOT ALEXANDER mother - DRUMMOND
M 1862 644 / 10 / 1146 HUTCHESONTOWN
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There are some possible baptisms for children of Alexander and Elizabeth ARNOLD all in Downpatrick, County Down. They match pretty well with names and ages on the Scotland census, but mother’s maiden name is not given, so can’t be certain.
These can be found on FamilySearch:-
• Margaret Arnold 1820
• Mary Arnold 14 Jan 1822
• John Arnold 22 Feb 1826
• Henry David Arnold 30 Sept 1827 (Is this your David?)
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From Scotland's People
• John Arnott; married Margaret McGregor in 1864 Blythswood; John died 16 Feb 1899 Dunoon; age 69; mother – Shannon
• Mary (Dewar) Arnott; age 71; died 1892 Hutchesontown; mother – Shannon
• Elizabeth Arnott; married Henry McQuillan in 1846 Glasgow. Elizabeth (McQuillan) Arnott; age 56; died 1890 St Rollox; mother – Shannon
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Wow, Thanks again Neale, you've got a better skill than me finding this info out, been hitting a brick wall with it for a few years now. Can see why I'm having difficulty in tracking family down, Totally diffent name given as mother on death cert (Helen something) I had his mother as Elizabeth but surname as Lithgow
Interesting to see the name change which will explain why I was struggling to find them but wonder why they have changed it? I know that many Irish anglicized their names, But wouldn't have thought Arnold was particularly Irish sounding to change to Arnott?
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On David’s marriage certificate, his mother’s name is clearly Elizabeth Shannon. This is the most reliable document, because the information came directly from David.
The information on his death certificate is from his stepson, and the information about mother is not correct. There is no reason that his stepson would know the correct details.
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Did wonder that, Are you any good at looking at Irish records by any chance?
You were right about Elizabeth Shannon, but the Alexander Arnot one isn't the person, no year given as it's a young baby that's died before reaching his 1st birthday
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Of the 4 children, Only Elizabeth made it into adulthood, Cathrine died 2 weeks old. Sara 8mths old
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Of the 4 children, Only Elizabeth made it into adulthood, Cathrine died 2 weeks old. Sara 8mths old
Surely 2 children made it to adulthood - Elizabeth and David.
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From death cert of ELizabeth (Shannon) Arnott ....
Elizabeth's parents were David SHANNON and Prudentia HEENAN
Not sure what it says for occupation of David Shannon (deceased)
"Egg dealer" ?? seems a bit odd ;D
Child of Alexander Arnott and Elizabeth (nee Shanon)
Prudentia Arnott Burial Feb 1851 Glasgow (named after her grandmother Pudentia Heenan)
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/244708610/prudentia-arnott
( I don't think the age is quite right, as on the census she is younger than brother David )
I was surprised not to find other members of the same Arnott family interred in the same place
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Aye she's buried in the Southern Necropolis, Pretty sure in the past I found a lair doc and it had been paid for by David Arnot,
Egg dealer is a new one on me, Not the strangest occupation in the family tree, That one's a hole borer, So not sure if a posh name for a tunnelling/trench cutting labourer or to do with drilling holes in metal/forming holes in metal tubes?
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You could put a snip on the hand writing board to see if anyone comes up with something more likely than egg dealer.
Also, previously, I discovered there are Catholic burials on FindMyPast, that are not indexed anywhere on ScotlandsPeople. If you know someone with a sub to FindMyPast you could ask them to check for a Catholic burial for Alexander Arnott/ Arnold, sometime between 1851 and 1870. It is a shame we cannot find a death for him.
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One way of trying to find Alexander Arnott’s death (or at least to narrow it down) is to look at the marriage records of his children,
We know when his son David Arnott married in 1870, his father was deceased.
His son John Arnott; married Margaret McGregor in 1864 Blythswood. What does the record give about his father?
His youngest son Alexander married in 1855 – Does this marriage record say his father was alive or dead?
We know he was alive in the 1851 census.
Here is some information about his youngest son: -
Alexander Arnott (junior) married Catherine Austin in 1855 Calton Glasgow
Children:-
• Prudentia - born 1855 Glasgow
• Catherine - born 1856 – died 1857 Glasgow
• Alexander - born 1857 Glasgow
• Elizabeth - born 1860 St Giles
• John W - born 16 Jan 1862 Farnham / Aldershot, England
• David – born 20 Dec 1863 Dover, England
• Mary Ann - born 1867 Gibraltar
• James - born 1870 New Brunswick, Canada
1861 census Alexander is with his family in Greenlaw / Glencorse Barracks, Midlothian (part of a detachment of 78th Regiment of Foot / Highlanders )
The regiment embarked for Gibraltar in 1865, and then in May 1869 sailed on the HMS Crocodile troopship to Nova Scotia, arriving on 14 May 1869.
Private Alexander Arnott was discharged from the 78th regiment in April 1871 (There are service / pension records for him on Ancestry Fold 3)
1871 census in New Brunswick Canada. Alexander (36) is a Tobacco Pipe Make.
Wife and all his children with him.
In late 1871 / early 1872 the family moved to Boston Massachusetts. Many of his children were married there.
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Have you considered checking this death in case there has been a transcription error:
ARNEIL
ALEX
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56
M
23/03/1853
644 / 1
580 / 90
GLASGOW
Ignore, just realised you are looking for an RC death. This one is CofS.
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Neale,
Fantastic, I wondered how I had a lot of DNA matches in that area of North America, this explains it!
I've filtered down some of the years previously and drawn a blank, I have a similar issue with another ancestor, The only thing I can think of is that they have died elsewhere in the UK possibly back home in Ireland
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Did find A younger Prue's obit in Boston,
Neale,
Have you any better luck looking for Francis McAllister or Margaret Lithgow? The Regt assocation has no records of him and I've tried other sites but no joy.
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John McAllister, mmn Lithgow, died in 1913 aged 67. So it looks as if he was born 1845/1846.
His marriage certificate says he was 23, which suggests 1846/1847.
In 1871 John, 23, and Elizabeth, 22, are in Glasgow with their son John, under 1 year and cousin Sarah McKee, 26. John was born in Ireland, which would account for not being able to find a birth/baptism record in Scotland.
In 1861 there's a household consisting of James Law and his wife Margaret, both born Ireland, two children born in Glasgow, and a 14-year-old son, John McAllister, born Ireland. I infer from this that Francis must have died quite young and Margaret Lithgow then married James Law.
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Forfarian,
Thanks for that, I'm aware of the 1871 census got to love AI translations, John is actually a slipper maker,
Not sure if the cousin is on the side of John or Elizabeth or isn't a natural cousin and related to James Law
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Thanks for that, I'm aware of the 1871 census got to love AI translations, John is actually a slipper maker
Yes. FindMyPast's transcription is correct. I take it you're still using Ancestry. (Their notorious (mis)transcriptions have been around for long enough not to be blamed on AI!)
There is no substitute for viewing the original census image to make sure that any information you take from it is as the enumerator recorded it and not as some transcriber imagined.
Not sure if the cousin is on the side of John or Elizabeth or isn't a natural cousin and related to James Law
No idea.
According to FindMyPast there are six Sarah McKees and one Sarah McKie in Great Britain in 1881 aged 30 to 40 (four in Scotland, three in England). All but one are married or widowed. The seventh one is aged 35, born in Ireland, so she is unlikely to be yours, who was born in Glasgow if the (transcription of) the 1871 is correct.
So she must have married, returned to Ireland, or emigrated somewhere else between 1871 or 1881. Or changed her surname or evaded the 1881 census enumerator.
On the other hand there are several marriages of Sarah McKees and McKies after 1871. It would be possible to make a note of all their married surnames, then search for deaths using both surnames. Eliminate any whose ages are wildly different from Sarah's. Then go for census records of the remaining ones and eliminate any who were not born in Glasgow. Then, assuming that she died in Scotland, you should be able to find her. But if she emigrated, with or without a husband, this method won't work.
Another way to look would be to go to a Scotland's People Centre and work your way through all the marriages and deaths of Sarah McKee or McKie born say 1845 plus or minus five years.
Whether she's worth all that effort is something only you can decide.
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Not sure if worth the effort at the moment until I can investigate the relationship of sara to John McAllister, if shes a full cousin, then it's worth the checking if I can't find any info on Francis McAllister
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One way of trying to find Alexander Arnott’s death (or at least to narrow it down) is to look at the marriage records of his children,
We know when his son David Arnott married in 1870, his father was deceased.
His son John Arnott; married Margaret McGregor in 1864 Blythswood. What does the record give about his father?
His youngest son Alexander married in 1855 – Does this marriage record say his father was alive or dead?
We know he was alive in the 1851 census.
He's dead in 1855, However what it does give me though is information that the Arnott/Arnolds come from Downpatrick
And that John is on his second wife in 1864 and living in High St as a water carrier as his occupation
Here is some information about his youngest son: -
Alexander Arnott (junior) married Catherine Austin in 1855 Calton Glasgow
Children:-
He's dead in 1855, However what it does give me though is information that the Arnott/Arnolds come from Downpatrick
And that John is on his second wife in 1864 and living in High St as a water carrier as his occupation
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Good progress. I was hoping that 1855 cert. might add some useful information.
So the Downpatrick baptisms I found are likely correct for this family.
Alexander died between 1851 census and his son’s marriage in 1855. So no death registration to find for him (sadly), only a burial record, if one exists.
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Those 1855 records are good, Any idea as to the reason they stopped putting as much detail in them in later years?
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I believe they found that it was too much work to collect all the details every time, so the requirements were reduced in 1856. A great pity - but at least they kept the names of both parents including the mother's maiden surname, unlike in England, Wales and Ireland.
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It is a pity, Would have been back to Adam and Eve in the tree by now if it had been there and a few more quid in my pocket! ;D