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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: colee on Wednesday 10 April 24 08:01 BST (UK)
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Hello
I am trying to work out why all 5 of Thomas Calvert Girtin's children, (son of the artist Thomas Girtin, dates 1801-74) had Hogg as their middle name, assuming that the mother of Thomas' wife Rachel Haward (from Suffolk) was originally a Hogg. But I can't find any evidence for her. Rachel was born in 1803 I think in Barsham, Suffolk.
Might anyone have better luck (or skill) than me?! Very many thanks, Colee
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Have you tracked the Hog witnesses at their marriage?
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Thank you - yes I did see that, I couldn't find anything on her. The Hawards seemed to come from around Cookley in Suffolk and probably the Hoggs were from Suffolk too but they seem harder to track somehow.
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Miss Mary Hog and her sister Ida Johanna Hog living Highbury Place, Islington, 1830
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/record/t18320405-186
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Ida Johanna died 1859 in Gloucester and is buried in Family Vault at St Mary's Aldermanbury
added and Mary was buried there in 1856
baptised 9 Dec 1778. St Michael Bassishaw, City of London. parents Roger & Mary Hog.
Mary could be the baptism 20 Mar 1781 at St Nicholas Acons, City of London. parents Roger & Mary
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Mary's will is PCC and she leaves everything to Ida Johanna
But one of the people who appeared for probate was George Wyndham Hog GIRTIN.
Ida's will you would have to pay £1.50 to acquire. It might be useful.
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Ah brilliant thank you for all that, really super helpful.
Yes I was looking at Ida Johanna and sister yesterday - they were witnesses in a theft so there is an Old Bailey transcript with them included (always interesting and illuminating) - but I couldn't find evidence of Mary being connected to Charles Haward or to daughter Rachel. And odd that Mary leaves everything to Ida (I'll order her will too if I can). Maybe if Mary and Charles were an 'item' they separated later in life.
But the link to George Wyndham obviously places them squarely in the family. I just couldn't find any other evidence. Great idea, I'll order Ida's will. Think I tried to find George Wyndham, but there was no will in the end.
Very very many thanks :)
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Strange though that in the PCC will of Mary Hog she is described as spinster, so can't really be Rachel's mother; and George Wyndham personally went to affirm the will after she died, confirming that she knew Mary and her writing well, therefore could testify it was written in her hand, yet doesn't give away any blood connection or family link to her - or is that normal?
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I’ve been wondering about the Barrett witnesses.
There is the earlier marriage of a Rachel Haward to a John Barrett. 1820, Cookley.
If she was a widow. Could she be Rachel’s mother? And those Barrett witnesses step relations.
(Doesn’t help with the Hogs .and I got tangled up in the Red Book of Scotland. Which has a Hog section, but doesn’t have quite what you want.
Roger Hog died Islington. Merchant in Nicholas Lane - British Chronicle 15 May 1788
Will - all to wife. signs Roger Hog junior
Mary the mother died 1820 - her will all to Ida and Mary
Scots Magazine 1st June 1793
Mr Alexander Hog, late of Nicholas lane, son of the deceased Roger Hog of Newliston
Will - to Isabella Thompson for the upkeep etc of the two children he has by her (not named)
I think Roger who died 1788 must be a brother of Alexander, but he (Roger junior) is not named in the red book.
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Strange though that in the PCC will of Mary Hog she is described as spinster, so can't really be Rachel's mother; and George Wyndham personally went to affirm the will after she died, confirming that she knew Mary and her writing well, therefore could testify it was written in her hand, yet doesn't give away any blood connection or family link to her - or is that normal?
Yes..I think that’s quite normal.
A description Mary’s 1856 death is in the papers. Including a couple of free to view ones.
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01t3w/
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Ha it's a bit of a tangled web!
I also got in touch with a Girtin art historian, Greg Smith, who kindly furnished me with this information:
The Hog part of the family name came from Mary Hog (c.1781–1856) who was described by a later writer who interviewed her as the ‘confidante of Thomas Girtin’s wife, bridesmaid, and also godmother to the only child of the painter, the present Mr Girtin.’
So maybe she was just a friend. Although if she was that close to the Girtin family, again strange that she left everything to sister Ida and nothing to Thomas Calvert (although he was probably fairly wealthy anyway).
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I’ve been wondering about the Barrett witnesses.
The witnesses are Borretts I think - Phineas Borrett was Thomas Calvert's grandfather, Ann Borrett his grandfather, and Mary Ann Cohen his mother. Her first husband Thomas Girtin (Thomas Calvert's father) died in 1802. She married Edward Cohen in 1811.
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I wonder what happened to the vault in St Mary Aldermanbury where the Hogs were buried. The church was bombed in the blitz, then gifted and rebuilt in the States after the war! (see the brilliant London Inheritance blog about it https://alondoninheritance.com/thebombedcity/two-bombed-churches-st-alban-st-mary/)
I have received the will of Ida Johanna (attached) which I'm not sure adds that much - but I guess sends the roots of the Hogs back to Scotland as the only Hog mentioned in it is Thomas Alexander Hog from Linlithgow, Scotland.
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Yes. The Hogs are in the red book of Scotland.
http://redbookofscotland.co.uk/red-books-of-scotland
But I don’t believe it quite has that section of the family correct. I feel sure it is missing Roger Junior (the father of Mary & Ida Johanna)
When I manage to find it again I will tell you where I found it! It wasn’t at the above link because I didn’t pay for it. When I did look at it it was no help with your Haward problem.
Added…Ancestry .. Scotland, Red Books of Scotland, 1600-1939
Meanwhile. I wonder if this is Roger Hog’s (the father of Mary & Ida) marriage https://www.wiewaswie.nl/en/search/. The image not loading for me.
And the wills of Mary senior & junior and Roger all mentioned Thomas Alexander. But only as executor.
One of the Hogs married a Maitland so the George Ramsay Maitland of Ida’s Will could be connected.
Anyway…I think since once again no direct mention of your family, that they must have been just very good friends. It does seem odd though to give every single child Hog/g as a name though.
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Yes, that marriage in Rotterdam is to Mary Murdoch. 15 Sept 1771,
She was born in Rotterdam and her parents are
William Murdoch and Ida Johanna Meijers.
So that must be the correct marriage & no Hawards there.
Stopping now…I am at risk of falling down a huge Hog rabbit hole, and that is not your question! ;D
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That's absolutely brilliant, and where the name Ida Johanna comes from, what a great discovery thank you! Ha I wonder which Ida Johanna Thomas Calvert's daughter was named after, the original one from Rotterdam or Mary Hog's sister Ida Johanna.
Very interesting, I think I spotted some Meyers/Meijers in the St Mary Islington registers, I'll have to go back and find them :)
I think the Haward issue was wondering who Thomas Calvert's mother in law was, married to Charles Haward in Suffolk. I might try and look again, but pretty sure now that there is no Hog connection there.
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Sorry, I didn’t see you had been on. I’ve modified both replies 13 & 14