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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: NorthernGeezer on Wednesday 10 April 24 21:12 BST (UK)
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Struggling to find the death of a great grandmother.
She was born in 1883 to a Thomas Clutton and Sarah Jane Minshull, I think in Wheelock but appears to have been christened in Ellesmere Port, which in itself looks strange but her family were boat people.
On the 1901 census it shows her in Sandbach but with a birthplace of Ellesmere Port too.
She married my great grandfather, Joseph Bell in Wheelock in 1904, had 3 children, William, Elsie Jane, and Alice and then died in 1907, the same year as her mother.
Fly in the ointment time, I believe there is ANOTHER Mary Ann Bell of the same age died at the same time, which complicates matters.
Any help would be gratefully appreciated
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Have you the death certificate for 1907 to confirm the correct person or havent you found a death registration for her?
What is the evidence for her death in 1907?
Are both ladies who died in 1907 the same age?
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Are you sure she died in 1907? There's a Mary Ann Bell (age 26) of Wheelock who was buried 1 April 1909.
On the same Burial page is an Enoch Minshull (age 6) of Wheelock. He drowned in the Canal.
Enoch's burial date was 1 May 1909.
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I've got a GRO ref 8a/188 for a death in Q3 1907.
Enoch Minshull is confusing as its the surname of her mother but I haven't found a death in that year.
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Enoch Minshull is confusing as its the surname of her mother but I haven't found a death in that year.
Deaths Jun 1909
MINSHULL Enoch 6 Congleton 8a 186
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Wondering now who's child Enoch was and is the canal incident just a coincidence?
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MINSHULL, ENOCH
mmn GALLAGHER
Q4 1902 SALFORD Volume 08D Page 149
Marriages Q3 1900 Northwich 8a 501
Minshull Enoch
Gallagher Bridget
I can find one other children, Mary b 1903 in Congleton
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So Enoch Minshull senior must have been a relative of Sarah Jane Minshull, uncle of Mary Ann.
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Looks like Enoch (born 1902) had an RC baptism on 9 Oct.
Parish: Ordsall, Our Lady of Mount Carmel
Enoch snr (born 1880) was the son of Samuel and Mary Minshull. Baptism place: Middlewich
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Possibly Sarah Janes parents too?
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Or maybe not, looking at my notes I've got Sarah's parents as William Minshull and Maria Brown.
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Enoch's in Salford in 1901 aged 21, b middlewich. Living with brother Henry aged 22
There's a likely Enoch on 1881 with a brother Henry the right age on the canal boat Teal with his parents Samuel and Mary
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There's a connection there, if the Clutton's and the Minshull's were both boat people, maybe the William and Maria link is wrong, although they have a daughter listed as Sarah Jane.
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Sarah Jane Minshall 23
Father Thomas Minshall
Thomas Clutton, 29
Father: William Clutton
Residence Place Copeland St
Marriage Date 27 Jan 1880 Stoke on Trent, St Peter ad Vincula,
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That looks like the right couple Mabel, so William Minshull and Maria Brown are wrong and Samuel and Mary are probably right.
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[Sarah] Jane, wife of Thomas Clutton, usually states her place of birth is Wrenbury
1861
Thomas Minshall 38 Boatman
Mary Minshall 44
Thomas Minshall 16
Benjamin Minshall 14
Ann Minshall 12
Samuel Minshall 10
Richard Minshall 8
William Minshall 6
Jane Minshall 4 b Wrenbury
James Minshall 1
Brother Samuel is the right age to be the drowned Enoch's grandfather,
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So Enoch Minshull senior is the son of Samuel Minshull who is the son of Thomas Minshull who is also the father of Sarah Minshull who married Thomas Clutton??
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Some great info here, thanks, but we got off track.................still looking for Mary Ann Bell/Clutton.
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As regards the 1909 burial mentioned earlier (Reply #2), could this be her?
Deaths Mar 1909
BELL Mary Ann 26 Manchester 8d 180
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I would say not Ashtone, there is no connection with Manchester at this point in time, but fast forward after WW1 and some of them end up there, its where I'm from.
In 1907 she gave birth to a daughter, Alice, in Sandbach and I can see no reason for her to move out of the area.
The info I have at the moment, which I admit may be wrong, she died in 1907, her daughters did not stay with the father Joseph, they went to live with the Clutton's, at this point I'm not sure whether it was the grandmother Sarah Jane or the aunt Sarah Jane.
At some point also, the son William born in 1904 went to live with his grandfather Samuel Bell.
Very messy for a genealogy search I think.
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The info I have at the moment, which I admit may be wrong, she died in 1907
Can I ask where the info came from please? If she could have died at some other time we can look again.
Is her husband shown as a widower in 1911? She may have left the family or been ill somewhere rather than died :-\
Another thought is if her parents were alive in 1911 you can check number of children who have died to confirm she was included.
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Joseph Bell
WW1 attestation lists wife Elizabeth? and the 3 children William Clutton - Elsie Jane Bell - Alice Bell
Document date 1915 - widowed
Even more confusing. Sorry not being much help here with the question at hand.
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Your right about the family in 1915, Joseph married Elizabeth collected the kids and moved to Manchester.
Elsie is my grandmother, and my dad, who is still alive, remembers Elizabeth as his grandmother, he just assumed that she was the 3 children's mother because nobody told him any different.
He ended fighting in WW1 and on his return worked in the Docks with my grandad, struck up a friendship and ended up marrying Elsie.
I'll do a bit more digging regarding Mary Ann taking account of your notes and see what I can find.
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Gro index birth
1908 Sept qtr Chester
Edith Bell mmn Clutton
1911 Tranmere.
Edith Bell aged 2 is a nurse child
She is with Albert Edward Hollins 39 a ship repairer b Staffordshire
Sarah Ann Hollins 38 b Staffordshire.
It's interesting.
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Gro index birth
1908 Sept qtr Chester
Edith Bell mmn Clutton
1911 Tranmere.
Edith Bell aged 2 is a nurse child
She is with Albert Edward Hollins 39 a ship repairer b Staffordshire
Sarah Ann Hollins 38 b Staffordshire.
It's interesting.
Red herring. 🙁
Edith is the daughter of George Bell and Margaret Clutton.
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I'm fairly new to this myself wilcoxon and I've still got wrong people in notes cos I cant yet find the evidence for the right people, Mary Ann Clutton is a perfect example, someone so near timescale wise but still feels miles away.
Someone once pointed out to me that you can only reach as far back as the evidence allows, if I cant find evidence of her death so be it, the Cluttons are a big clan so I can at least reach back a bit further.
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Millipede.
Joseph Bell is noted as a widower in the 1911 census, living in Sandbach and its worth noting that the children are NOT listed on the census with him.
Given the last child, Alice, was born in 1907, that gives a 4 year window for the death of Mary Ann.
William Bell Clutton, age 6, son of Joseph and Mary Ann is listed as living with Samuel bell in the 1911 census in Sandbach.
Both Elsie and Alice ARE listed in the 1911 census as living with there Aunt, Sarah Jane Clutton in Wheelock.
I'm now starting to think that the 1907 date is wrong for Mary Ann's death and maybe she IS the 1909 death at reply 2 by Ashtone.
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Yes you may have to take a punt on the 1909 death and hope it confirms who she was ie wife of Joseph Bell and match his occupation.
Can I ask whereabouts her mother died in 1907? Only there was a Clutton death in Manchester which might link the two. Think it was Jane but right age.
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Just looked through my notes and I cant find the evidence, I'll have to do a re-trawl I think.
There are a number of problems with the Cluttons, because they were boat people they could be anywhere and everywhere and whilst I wouldn't rule out the Manchester death, its not ringing any bells but Ellesmere Port is striking a chord.
Theres an issue with Sarah Jane too, there are records with the 2 names, with just Sarah, and with just Jane.
the spelling of Clutton in the records are suspect too.
At some point in time Joseph Bell came to Manchester, why?, I don't know but he's the touchstone of my family in the town, I'm not sure I can say the same about the Cluttons, I'm pretty sure Mary Ann and the kids didn't move here with him and they only arrived after her death but who IS the Jane Clutton who died in Manchester in 1907??
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To be sure you need 2 certificates.
Splash the cash, you could be wondering for ever. 🙂
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Your not wrong wilcoxon, its not the first time I've had to do it and with it being a direct descendant its a must.
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https://englishancestors.blog/2023/07/15/instant-access-birth-and-death-certificate-images/
£ 2.50 Is a bargain but just check this site to be sure it's what you want.
I had a few and all the neccesary details are there.
Good luck. 🙂
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Thanks for the tip wilcoxon ;)
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Ordered both digital images, watch this space.
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The price of a pint 🍺 got to be worth it 🙂 :)
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Great, look forward to hearing what they show.
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Can I ask whereabouts her mother died in 1907? Only there was a Clutton death in Manchester which might link the two. Think it was Jane but right age.
Just looked through my notes and I cant find the evidence, I'll have to do a re-trawl I think.
Not that this helps with finding the correct death entry for Mary Ann Bell
For info.
The 1911 census with Elsie & Alice Bell with their Aunt Sarah Jane Clutton
they are listed as granddaughters and daughter. If you look at the front schedule page address
14 Game Street Wheelock Sandbach name Mrs Sheckleston.
I believe she is Sarah Jane Clutton's mother
1911 census Sarah J Sheckleston age 53 born Renbury, Cheshire married to James Sheckleston (years married 2) can't make out the name of the vessel
Marriages for Sarah Jane
Jonah Barlow spouse Sarah Jane Clutton
Sep 1903 Nantwich 8a 685
from Cheshire BMD married Warmingham, St Leonard
James Sheckelstone spouse Sarah Jane Barlow
Mar 1909 Congleton Volume 8a Page 44
from Cheshire BMD Congleton, Civil Marriage or Registrar Attended
Death
Sheckleston Sarah Jane b1857 d1944 Crewe, Cheshire
edited - digital image £2.50 available from GRO
Electoral register Wheelock,Cheshire year 1921
surname Shackleston
James & Sarah Jane address The Locks
Free index 1921 Wheelock, Cheshire
James Shackelston 1852 Middlewich, Cheshire
Jane Shackelston 1856 Wrenbury, Cheshire
Electoral Register Year 1930 Sarah Jane Shackleston address 595 Crewe Road
also at that address Sarah Jane & Ernest Hatton (Sarah Jane Clutton married Ernest Hatton 1911 at Wheelock, Christ Church). Probate record 4 Mar 1947 for Sarah Jane Hatton address 595 Crewe Road
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Ladyhawk...........................WOW!!!
That's a hell of a lot you've discovered :o
So, firstly, I ordered digital copies of the death certificates for the 2 Mary Ann Clutton's we think it might be.
GRO closes at 4.00. on a Friday so I wont hear back from them till tomorrow at the earliest.
I knew Elsie and Alice were living with there aunt, Sarah Jane Clutton, the fact its the 1911 census raises a number of questions.................
Following the death of their mother in 1907/1909, who did they live with and where?
The 1909 Manchester death certificate for Mary Ann Clutton may answer this question, if its the correct person then the family moved from Wheelock to Manchester following the birth of Alice in 1907, if its not the right person then we can only assume that the family stayed in Wheelock following the birth of Alice, confirmed by the 1911 census.
I can place the family in Manchester with there father Joseph and his new wife Elizabeth in 1915, this then raises another question though.
My grandmother is Elsie and I can recall visiting an Alice, presumably her sister, in the early 60s in Wheelock.
I've got Alice's birth details but nothing after that, thats my next quest I think.
My understanding is that Mary Ann Cluttons biological parents were Thomas and Sarah Jane Clutton (nee Minshull).
As yet I have no evidence of there deaths other than some notes I made, Thomas died in 1894 and Sarah Jane in 1907, allegedly, it would seem from your findings that Sarah Jane remarried after Thomas's death, hence the fact I wouldn't find a death certificate for her under Clutton.
It looks like the new husband James Sheckleston is also a boatman, seems like its a very close community.
The daughter, Sarah Jane Clutton, married twice, to Jonah Barlow in 1903 and James Sheckleston (presumably James Sheckleston junior) in 1909.
The rest of your findings from 1909 onwards look pretty straight forward.
So, a lot to digest and process and I can only say thinks to yourself for the current info and everyone else who have contributed to this search................THANK YOU ;D
As soon as I get the GRO details for the 2 Mary Ann's I'll let you know.
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Got the digital download, She's Mary Ann Bell, GRO reference 8d/180, died in Manchester 27th March 1909 from a Hydratidform mole leading to a collapsed uterus whilst pregnant, sad news.
Anyway..............after the birth of Alice in Sandbach in 1907, the family must have moved to Manchester, reason unknown and I don't suppose we will ever know.
Following Mary's death, Joseph must have shipped Elsie and Alice to Sarah Jane the aunt and William to his father Samuel, detailed within the 1911 census.
Supposition I know but it ties things together.
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Are there no clues with the informant, or did she die in hospital.
A sad end though.
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Yes, her husband Joseph Bell is named.
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Yes, her husband Joseph Bell is named.
Well that's a good match.,🙂
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Any addresses listed on her death certificate? They often help provide helpful clues, etc.
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I think that just about wraps up this thread, except for Alice Bell, I don't have a death for her or a potential marriage, or children.
I actually knew Alice, I used to visit with Elsie in the late 60s early 70s, she always seemed at home in Wheelock and I have a feeling she probably stayed there, where as Elsie at some point returned to Manchester as she married my grandfather in 1930, although I don't know when she returned, the 1921 census might offer up some clues though.
Can I take this opportunity in thanking EVERYONE who helped with this, I'm sure in the not too distant future something else will crop up where I need help ???
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Sorry, as for the address Ashtone, no, she died in St Mary's hospital.
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I think that just about wraps up this thread, except for Alice Bell, I don't have a death for her or a potential marriage, or children.
I actually knew Alice, I used to visit with Elsie in the late 60s early 70s, she always seemed at home in Wheelock and I have a feeling she probably stayed there, where as Elsie at some point returned to Manchester as she married my grandfather in 1930, although I don't know when she returned, the 1921 census might offer up some clues though.
Do you have Alice's exact date of birth, if so, you could use that date to look for her on the 1939 register.
Elsies 1930 marriage her address 110 Taylorson Street, Salford, one witness was
William BELL. If available online perhaps check the Electoral Register for that address.
It looks as if Alice is with her father and sister in Salford
Free index 1921 census
Salford Lancashire
Joseph Bell 1882 Rodeheath, Cheshire,
Elizabeth Bell 1881 Ambleside, Westmorland
Elsie Bell 1906 Wheelock, Cheshire
Alice Bell 1907 Wheelock, Cheshire
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I have Alices DOB as 15th May 1907 in Sandbach GRO Ref 8a/306.
The William Bell as a witness to Elsie's marriage is her brother, good tip about the electoral register, I'll get right on it.
It would seem the family never lived in Manchester/Salford before Mary Ann's death in 1909, she was in hospital there for treatment, and the girls are listed in Sandbach on the 1911 census.
At some point the family DID move to Manchester/Salford and certainly before 1815 as Joseph was attested to the Manchester regiment at this time, the question which I don't think will be answered is why?
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I've been in touch with Salford council regarding the electoral roll for 1930, the year of Elsie's marriage to Thomas, to see if Alice was on it............she wasn't, so I've requested a search for the previous 2 years, 1928 when she would have been 21, and 1929, if she is on neither then its clear she moved out sometime between the 1921 census when she was 14 and 1928 when she was 21.....the mystery deepens and the search continues ::)
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Back again :-)
I kind of gave up on tracing Alice, it was proving too troublesome for an aunt and not a direct relative but yet again, this side of the family is causing me problems.
I'm happy (I Think) that Mary Ann's parents were Thomas Clutton born 7/03/1851 and Sarah Jane Minshull born June 1856 and I'm also happy at this point with the Minshull line going back.
Again, I think Thomas Cluttons father was William Clutton born 20/05.1833 and if he's the right father, I'm struggling with his mother.
What's clouding the issue is on Ancestry there's ANOTHER William Clutton born in 1824 with a wife named Sarah White. I'm new to Ancestry and I'm struggling in trying to decipher the information being thrown up.
Any help would be gratefully appreciated.
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Back again :-)
I kind of gave up on tracing Alice, it was proving too troublesome for an aunt and not a direct relative but yet again, this side of the family is causing me problems.
I'm happy (I Think) that Mary Ann's parents were Thomas Clutton born 7/03/1851 and Sarah Jane Minshull born June 1856 and I'm also happy at this point with the Minshull line going back.
Again, I think Thomas Cluttons father was William Clutton born 20/05.1833 and if he's the right father, I'm struggling with his mother.
What's clouding the issue is on Ancestry there's ANOTHER William Clutton born in 1824 with a wife named Sarah White. I'm new to Ancestry and I'm struggling in trying to decipher the information being thrown up.
Any help would be gratefully appreciated.
I can't see a birth registration for Thomas Clutton 1851 on the GRO index.
Have you got his baptism which gave you a birthdate, doesn't that give his parents names.
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Unfortunately not Wilcoxon, his birthdate is calculated from census records, specifically the 1881 census which details boat people moored somewhere I cant decipher, he's head of the family, aged 30, married to Jane Clutton AKA Sarah Jane Minshull.
Ancestry have picked up a birth date of 7th March 1851, presumably from someone else's record.
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1881 gives the name of the boat, Drake.
If you roll back to image 1 it gives you the description of the enumeraters route.
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I see that, but that helps how??
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Boats in the division.
Name of vessels
The enumeraters schedule tells you which canal they were on and which stretch.
Very helpful.
https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=33255&SearchType=2&ThemeID=517
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Interesting article, and when I get time I'm going to go in to the life of canal boat people a bit more seriously, from the little I know a lot of the Clutton's plied this trade.................but, in the meantime I'm still stumbling my way through research, although I suspect the problems I'm having IS because they are boat people and transient.
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Back again :-)
I kind of gave up on tracing Alice, it was proving too troublesome for an aunt and not a direct relative but yet again, this side of the family is causing me problems.
I'm happy (I Think) that Mary Ann's parents were Thomas Clutton born 7/03/1851 and Sarah Jane Minshull born June 1856 and I'm also happy at this point with the Minshull line going back.
Again, I think Thomas Cluttons father was William Clutton born 20/05.1833 and if he's the right father, I'm struggling with his mother.
What's clouding the issue is on Ancestry there's ANOTHER William Clutton born in 1824 with a wife named Sarah White. I'm new to Ancestry and I'm struggling in trying to decipher the information being thrown up.
Any help would be gratefully appreciated.
OK. A few questions.
How far back can you get with your Thomas Clutton.
Have you got Census records with his parents and siblings.
Have you got his actual birth certificate and marriage certificate.
Who do you believe to be his mother.
Are both William Cluttons born in the same place.
I spotted something interesting on a census but could be on the wrong track without more information .
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Thomas Clutton Born 7th March 1851, Shropshire Died 30th November 1894 Forge Field Sandbach Cheshire.
Married to Sarah Jane Minshull.
His Father, William Clutton Born 20th May 1834 in Wrenbury, Cheshire Died 7th March Church Lawton, Cheshire, I have no spouse for William.
His father, Thomas Clutton Born 1911 in Acton, Cheshire, death date unknown.
Married to Margaret Dykes in 1929 in Wrenbury.
I have William on the 1841 census age 7, his parents both age 30 but with there birthplace just listed as Cheshire, the 1851 census however shows Margaret born in Middlewhich Cheshire. The 1861 shows Thomas as born in Burland, Cheshire and Margaret born in Lughton, Cheshire. 1871 census shows Thomas born in Burland and Margaret born in Leighton.
And thats as far back as I've got.
I dont have certificates yet, thats the next step.
I'm happy with the 1851 Thomas, further back I can be persuaded that his father William and his Father Thomas could be wrong.
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There`s an interesting Clutton Tree on Ancestry. It would be worth checking the records out for yourself.
I had been looking at it before . There is no birth registration for a Thomas Clutton about 1850.
This couple married in 1846 in Malpas Cheshire. Not found in 1851.
WILLIAM CLUTTON
18241888
BIRTH 1824 Malpas, Cheshire DEATH 17 MAR 1888 Church Lawton, Cheshire
Sarah White 18211895
BIRTH 1821 Peckford, Cheshire, England
DEATH 12 MAR 1895 42 Norton Street, Runcorn, Cheshire
1861 Wolverhampton .
If you look at the census page William filled it in himself, his signature is at the bottom. This could be useful if you need to compare it with other documents.
William Chilton 37 b Cheshire Corrected to Clutton
Sarah Chilton 40 Captain Wife ( mmn White)
Thomas Chilton 10 Son Assistant (Assistant) b Shropshire
William Chilton 7 Son
Sarah Chilton 4 Daughter
1871 Penkridge Staffordshire
Thomas Clutton 19 b Shrewsbury Shropshire
Assistant to captain of a boat
1871 Burslem . No Thomas . Sarah is 3 years older on both records.
William Clutton 47 b Whitchurch Salop
Sarah wife 50
William 17
Sarah 15
1881 Leek
Thomas 30 b Shrewsbury
Jane 25
Harry 7 b Laughton ? Cheshire
Hannah 5 months
So . Thomas Clutton married Sarah Jane Minshall in 1880 but he has a 7 year old son.
From the tree this is Harry Clutton Not found on GRO birth Index.
c 1874 / 18751918
BIRTH c 1875 Lawton Heath End, Cheshire, England
Baptism
20 Sep 1874 Cheshire, England
DEATH 29 OCT 1918 Military Hospital, Shorncliffe Camp, Kent, England
Harry was the son of Hannah Clews who Thomas Clutton had married on 08 Oct 1872
Wolstanton, Stafford, England
2 Jun 1899 His marriage certificate to Mary Beckett has father as Thomas Clutton boatman deceased.
HANNAH CLEWS
18541876
BIRTH OCTOBER 1854 Middlewich, Cheshire, England
DEATH APRIL 1876 Newcastle under Lyme, Staffordshire . registered as Clutton
So Thomas was a widower when he married Sarah Jane Minshall
1891
Thomas Clutton 43 b Shrewsbury
You have the rest.
Thats it. Good luck.
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I had looked at the Sarah White marriage before as it was the one Ancestry threw up at me as a hint but for some reason I dismissed it, I cant remember why though, I'll revisit that one, like I say, I'm not glued to one school of thought and the Thomas and William combo kind of looked wrong too.
Given there background, I'm assuming rightly or wrongly that the boating thing is passed down the line, as you pointed out Thomas Clutton is listed on the 1861 census as captains assistant at 10 years old and I'll take more notice of this.
I understand that people die early and the surviving spouse marries again, the Hannah Clews thing being a case in point, and whilst she is not in my direct line, info like that does provide corroborating evidence.
Thanks for your help on this, its given me a bit to work on but hopefully I'm on the right track.