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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Buteshire => Topic started by: elinga on Thursday 18 April 24 15:28 BST (UK)
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Looking for information on Isabella Black
(my 5 times great grandmother) who was born on Arran Buteshire Scotland circa 1785 , she "married" John McKinnon/McKennon and they had a daughter
Helen Black McKinnon also born on Arran circa 1808.
Helen married Michael Findlay in Irvine in 1829 and when Michael died she erected a gravestone in the Old Parish Church Irvine graveyard , which included that her father John died in October 1810 in Chelsea aged 24, giving him an approximate dob as 1786 also her mother Isabella in 1862 !
on Isabella's death certificate (she died in Irvine) it named John McKennon her husband, (deceased ) and he was a soldier !
I have searched scotlandspeople for a marriage for John and Isabella and a birth certificate for allof them , but no luck , I have also searched for John McKinnon(McKennon but unsure of which one is him !
so for the long story but any help would be appreciated !
regards
Elinga
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Do you have Helen’s 1808 baptism record? Does it indicate her father’s name and occupation?
Have you found Isabella in the 1841-1861 census reports? What is her surname in each please? Is she listed as Black or McKinnon/McKennon?
Related thread:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=882023.msg7547241#msg7547241
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The only baptism for an Isabel/la Black that I can see about the right time on Arran on Scotlands People is this one
ISABEL BLACK
WILLIAM BLACK/EUPHAN COOK
F18/08/1782 554 10 / 84 Kilmory, Shiskine and Lochranza
Added - Forget this - her death cert lists her parents as Dugald Black - Sailor and Barbara mn Black
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Ashtone the first evidence I have regarding Helen is her marriage to Michael Findlay, she died in 1884 aged 75 giving her an estimated dob of 1808/1809 and the transcription of the gravestone in Irvine , which I have attached !
I see an Isobella McKinnon on the 1841 census aged 55 in Irvine , but no credits left have to wait until the end of the month !
I have her on the 1851 census as Isabella McKinnon aged 65 (pauper) in Irvine born in Buteshire !
I have her death certificate , she died in 1862 in Irvine !
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thanx Kay99 for trying anyway !
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I see an Isobella McKinnon on the 1841 census aged 55 in Irvine , but no credits left have to wait until the end of the month !
I have her on the 1851 census as Isabella McKinnon aged 65 (pauper) in Irvine born in Buteshire !
I have her death certificate , she died in 1862 in Irvine !
This looks to be the entry you mention from 1841 on FreeCen www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a141f8af4040b9d6e08e48c/isobella-mckinnon-1841-ayrshire-irvine-1786-?locale=en
Just to add here the 1851 census entry (which you have) for background www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59027a9be9379091b11b846c/isabella-mckinnon-1851-ayrshire-ayr-1786-?locale=en
Monica
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Have you viewed the 1862 death for Isabella Black or McKinnon? The SP index shows the maiden name of Black for her mother on her death registration index entry. Wondered what details showed on this cert for her parents.
Monica
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yes thanx MonicaL mentioned in original post !
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Can’t help wondering if the details on the headstone, after the details for Michael Findlay 1847, may have been added as late as 1934.
Certainly they must have been added after 1884.
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Have you viewed the 1862 death for Isabella Black or McKinnon? The SP index shows the maiden name of Black for her mother on her death registration index entry. Wondered what details showed on this cert for her parents.
Monica
Dugald Black, a sailor, and Barbara Black, MSS Black.
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thanx MonicaL for the 1841 census :-)
but you have created another mystery as so far I havent heard of a Mary !
I have searched scotlandspeople for bmds and census for Mary and found nothing , except of course the 1841 !
if she is Isobellas daughter then she must have had her when she was 15 !
cant wait to see the census for 1841 , might go mad and buy it tomorrow !
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thank you mckha489 I have the death certificate for Isabella !
my search is more about John and Isabella (and birth date) and any other children they might have had !
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thanx MonicaL for the 1841 census :-)
but you have created another mystery as so far I havent heard of a Mary !
I have searched scotlandspeople for bmds and census for Mary and found nothing , except of course the 1841 !
if she is Isobellas daughter then she must have had her when she was 15 !
cant wait to see the census for 1841 , might go mad and buy it tomorrow !
Is Mary, Margaret Scouler, the niece.
Where did she die?
Added..ok I’ve found it. 1863 not 1862.
Her MMN is Black.
So have you details of who her parents are? Presumably mother a sister of Isabella. That might help.
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mckha489
here is a photo of the gravestone
regards
Elinga
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Yes. I’ve seen the photo.
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Do you have Helen’s 1808 baptism record? Does it indicate her father’s name and occupation?
Have you found Isabella in the 1841-1861 census reports? What is her surname in each please? Is she listed as Black or McKinnon/McKennon?
Related thread:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=882023.msg7547241#msg7547241
In that related thread you say
their daughter Helen was born in 1808 on the Isle of Arran Bute Scotland .
And yet in 1851 & 1861
She says she was born Dunbar, East Lothian
Am I looking at the wrong family?
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mckha489 according to the 1871 census she was born in Irvine Ayrshire , but according to 1881 she was born in Haddington Dunbar .... now I am totally confused !
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thanx MonicaL for the 1841 census :-)
but you have created another mystery as so far I havent heard of a Mary !
I have searched scotlandspeople for bmds and census for Mary and found nothing , except of course the 1841 !
if she is Isobellas daughter then she must have had her when she was 15 !
cant wait to see the census for 1841 , might go mad and buy it tomorrow !
Is Mary, Margaret Scouler, the niece.
Where did she die?
Added..ok I’ve found it. 1863 not 1862.
Her MMN is Black.
So have you details of who her parents are? Presumably mother a sister of Isabella. That might help.
Her parents are listed as Joseph Scoular - Miller and Barbara Scoular mn Black. So Isabella had a sister Barbara or could Isabella's mother Barbara have remarried??
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Bapt of Margaret from Scotlands People
MARGARET BLACK SCULARE JOSEPH OR GEORGE SCULARE OR CROOKSHANK BARBARA BLACK FR446 (FR446) 08/01/1800 595 20 / 107 Irvine The image lists her as natural daughter so parents unmarried George Crookshank crossed out on the image
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Corrections here for years, ages - at Michael FINLAY and son John -
Lot of information to work with. This is what I see, with daughter Isabella, second last, being additional to the transcribed list. Please cast an eye over so that I can correct -
They are not inscribed in order of death?
Graveyard, Irvine, Schotland
Helen McKENNEN in memory of
* husband Michael FINLAY killed Dalry Mill 30 May 1847 52y (b ~ 1795)
* the above Helen McKENNEN 20 Jul 1884 77y (b ~ 1807)
* son John 8 Apr 1843 14y (b ~ 1829)
* son William 6 Dec 1875 36y (b. ~ 1839)
* father John McKENNAN died Chelsea Oct 1810 24y (b. ~ 1786)
* mother Isabella BLACK 3 Nov 1862 77y (b. ~ 1785)
* aunt Elizabeth BLACK 10 Sep 1852 77y (b. ~ 1775)
* cousin Margaret SCOULAR 29 Aug 1863 63y (b. ~ 1800)
* son Michael 5 Dec 1883 48y (b. ~ 1835)
* daughter Catherine 9 Sep 1898 69y (b. ~ 1829)
* daughter Margaret 3* Mar* 1913
* daughter Isabella Apr
* grandson Michael 30 May 1934 72y? ( b. ~ 1862)
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Bapt of Margaret from Scotlands People
MARGARET BLACK SCULARE JOSEPH OR GEORGE SCULARE OR CROOKSHANK BARBARA BLACK FR446 (FR446) 08/01/1800 595 20 / 107 Irvine The image lists her as natural daughter so parents unmarried George Crookshank crossed out on the image
The Kirk session says Margaret Black (not Barbara) and George Crookshank a soldier in the Grant Fencibles.
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/virtual-volumes/volume-images/volume_data-CH2-1505-5/GAZ00629?image_number=237
Added… Is it likely that George is the father, but Joseph assumed responsibility?
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* husband Michael FINLAY killed Dalry Mill 30 May 1847 52y (b ~ 1815)
should be born c1795.
Otherwise ok.
Yes - the inscriptions are not in date order. Part of the reason I think they were likely most, if not all, added at a later date.
Already there is one definite error - Margaret Scoular died 1863 not 1862
And Isabella Black died 4th not 3rd
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Interesting re the Kirk Sessions. Hopefully this is the image of the 1800 bapt.
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What does the note in the RH margin say?
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Crookshank Black In other records it is the surname of the parents - ususally just one
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Crookshank Black In other records it is the surname of the parents - ususally just one
Of course. I can’t have had enough wine yet.
Meanwhile
There is this death
BLACK
DOUGAL
-----
M
22/05/1795
595
30 / 195
IRVINE
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I can't see any church burials for Irvine between 1797 and 1855 on Scotlands People which appears to tie in with this https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Irvine,_Ayrshire,_Scotland_Genealogy
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Corrections here for years, ages - at Michael FINLAY and son John -
From the inscription headstone -
* husband Michael FINLAY killed Dalry Mill 30 May 1847 52y (b ~ 1795)
* the above Helen McKENNEN 20 Jul 1884 77y (b ~ 1807)
* son John 8 Apr 1843 14y (b ~ 1849)
And this no longer relevant -
If dates are correct, John (son of Helen McKENNEN) born ~ 1849, is not the child of Helen's husband, Michael FINLAY, who died 1847.
Is there a second marriage for Helen?
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John died 1843 not 63. Sorry didnt pick that up before.
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I can't see any church burials for Irvine between 1797 and 1855 on Scotlands People which appears to tie in with this https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Irvine,_Ayrshire,_Scotland_Genealogy
Quite a lot of headstones here
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01t4h/
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to all the people who have contributed and helped ....Blimey
I dont know where to start , seems I have opened a hornets nest !
tbh I have only made my interest in Isabella John and Helen as they are my direct lineage , so havent really paid too much attention to the other names and dates on the gravestone !
that being said , I am off on holiday for 2 weeks , so when I get back I will get into this again and do a bit more research and see what comes out of it !
thank you again and I will be back :-)
regards
Elinga
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so I have gone over the names on the headstone and this is what I have found !
Michael Findlay husband , died 30.5 1847 aged 52
No confirmation
Helen McKennon self, died 20.7.1884 aged aged 77
Death certificate confirmed
John Findlay her son , died 8.4.1863 aged 14
(John Findlay dob 12/10/1829 Irvine)
Death FINDLAY
JOHN
1861
M
14
597/ 13/ 8
KILMARNOCK
AYR
William (Auld) Findlay her son, died 6.12.1875 aged 36
Death Certificate confirmed died 6.12.1874
John McKennon her father, died October 1810 aged 24 in Chelsea England
No Record found
Isabella Black her mother , died 3.11.862 aged 77
Death Certificate confirmed 4.11.1862
Elizabeth Black her aunt, died 10.9.1852 aged 77
No confirmation
Margaret Scouler her cousin ,died 29.8.1863 aged 63
Margaret Black Sculare Or Crookshank ???
Death Certificate confirmed 1863
SCOULAR
MARGARET
63
BLACK
F
1863
595 / 179
IRVINE
Michael Findlay her son , died 5.12.1883 aged 48
Catherine Findlay her daughter , died 9.9.1898 aged 69
Margaret Findlay, her daughter , died 3.3.1913 ??
Michael Findlay her grandson , died 30.5.1934 aged 72 ?
Helen McKinnon Findlay according to her death certificate she was 75 when she died in 1884, giving her an approximate dob 1809 ……1809-1884
Michael Findlay (Finlay) according to 1841 census he was 46 , giving him an approximate DOB 1795 and he died in an accident at work in Dalry , May 29.1847 …..1795-1847
John and Katherine Glasgow Finlay were born in Irvine , 12.10.1829
parents MICHAEL FINLAY and HELEN MCKENNON (according to birth certificate from scotlandspeople ,
Both are mentioned in the 1841 census from scotlandspeople aged 11
John Findlay on Familysearch , died on 08 Apr 1843 in Irvine, birth 1829. 1829-1843
Directed to this grave in the Old Parish Church , which I believe is the same one as mentioned in the original post !
so what do you guys think ?
regards
Elinga
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I am not quite sure what you are asking.
(John her son who died age 14 died in 1843, not 1863)
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mckha489
if you look over the previous posts there were discrepancies in the dates regarding the headstone and I have gone over everything I have on the peoples names listed and posted what I know/or not !
John mentioned on the headstone I couldnt find , but I have John born 1829 and mentioned in the 1841 census with his parents Helen and Michael Finlay , but he is not mentioned in the 1851 or 1861 census with his family and couldnt find a death for him either !!
but you say there was one who died in 1842 aged 14 so where did you get that information ?
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John mentioned on the headstone I couldnt find , but I have John born 1829 and mentioned in the 1841 census with his parents Helen and Michael Finlay , but he is not mentioned in the 1851 or 1861 census with his family and couldnt find a death for him either !!
John Findlay her son , died 8.4.1863 aged 14
(John Findlay dob 12/10/1829 Irvine)
If John was born in 1829 he was a lot older than 14 by 1863. I wondered if 1863 was a mistranscription of 1843, which would fit age-wise and also tallies with the census information you quoted.
This reference Death FINDLAY
JOHN
1861
M
14
597/ 13/ 8
KILMARNOCK
AYR
is from the census index, not from the deaths index. This child is the stepson of John Harvie, one of four children of Alexander Findlay and Elizabeth Cuthbertson, who were married in Kilmarnock in 1840.
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Hi Forfarian, maybe it is a mistake , seems the likeliest explanation and as you say the dates fit better !
the John Findlay I found in Kilmarnock was the only John Findlay fitting the dates , thank you for ruling him out !
thanks for your input !
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If you look at the IMAGE of the grave stone, (not that transcription) it is clearly 1843 not 1863 for the death of the son John age 14.
But as I have said before, due to the order the inscriptions have been made, I think after the first inscription for Michael The others were all added in one bulk lot MANY years later. And so are only as reliable as people’s memories and what they had been told etc.
I thought we had solved most of the date issues etc in the bulk of the thread.
(Still no John McK though). I suspect he will forever be a mystery.
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mckha489 tbh I was so confused about all the previous posts my head was spinning and I was going on holiday !
so when I came back I looked at everything I had proof of and that is why I posted it !
but now I have reread everything and think I have it all sorted out !
except as you say John McK :-(
thank you for all your help and of course everyone else who has contributed !
regards
Elinga