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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Census Lookup and Resource Requests => Topic started by: meaty on Thursday 25 April 24 09:19 BST (UK)
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Hi I recently built my existing family tree on familysearch and the fan chart is excellent as it is printable and quickly shows where the gaps in your research are...
One such gap and brick wall that has been bugging me for years is that I cannot find the marriage of my GGG grandparents and so don't know their fathers names to go back further. They are William John b1815-1820 of St Dogmells, Pembrokeshire and Ann(e) Griffiths b1823-1826 of either of Tremain or Blaenporth, Cardiganshire. They appear to have had their first child in 1846 so should be married by then but I just cant find it. Any help greatly appreciated in filling in the hole in my tree.
Thanks
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If you search on the GRO site for the child's birth certificate it will give you the mothers maiden name which might also assist for the marriage if there was one
Willow x
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Here's the GRO site-
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
You need to register (free) then once logged in select "Search the GRO indexes"
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Have you checked this possibility
Narberth September quarter 1847 26 789
Where William John and Anne Griffith, Ann Griffiths are on the same page.
You would need to pair up the various spouses to check.
One tree shows John Butterfield and Ann Griffiths , for example
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Another tree matches David Phelps with Martha James.
This leaves William John and Anne Griffith as possible spouses.
Found the marriage - his father is James John and William is a collier. Does that fit?
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Marriage 18 Sept 1847 St Issells, Pembrokeshie
William John and Anne Griffiths Residence Kingsmoor Hill. His father James John and hers James Griffiths. William John is a collier. One of the witnesses is an Isaac Griffiths.
William
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Possibles off FindMyPast
19.10.1830 at Lambston Pembrokeshire William John to Ann Griffiths
25.1.1835 at St Andrews Cardiff William John of St Andrews to Anne Griffiths of Leckwith
18.9.1847 St Issells Pembrokeshire William John of Kingsmoor collier father James John collier to Anne Griffiths of Hill father James Griffiths servant on of the witnesses is an Isaac Griifiths
Willow x
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Possibles off FindMyPast
19.10.1830 at Lambston Pembrokeshire William John to Ann Griffiths
25.1.1835 at St Andrews Cardiff William John of St Andrews to Anne Griffiths of Leckwith
18.9.1847 St Issells Pembrokeshire William John of Kingsmoor collier father James John collier to Anne Griffiths of Hill father James Griffiths servant on of the witnesses is an Isaac Griifiths
Willow x
The couple would be too young for the 1830 or 1837 marriages
They are William John b1815-1820 of St Dogmells, Pembrokeshire and Ann(e) Griffiths b1823-1826 of either of Tremain or Blaenporth, Cardiganshire. They appear to have had their first child in 1846 so should be married by then but I just cant find it.
But a marriage in St Issells - quite a long way from St Dogmells, Tremain or Blaenporth - might fit if the couple were living in St Dogmells as a married couple. To marry without a scandal they would likely go to somewhere a good few miles away.
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But..
If I have the right family in 1851 and 1861, living in St Dogmells, with oldest daughter Mary, William John is a fisherman not a collier.
In 1841 there is a William John (fisherman) age 25 (rounded) with Mary age 60 , Pheoby 20, Maria 15 - presumed mother and sisters. Mary's occupation says Ind(ependant). Normally for a married woman occupation is left blank, so I suspect she has been widowed.
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Hi and thanks very much for the replies which are appreciated. I did indeed assume that they must have gone to Narbeth to get married, which is a bit of a jaunt, however on receipt of the certificate it became clear that it wasn't them. The reason being is that my William was a fisherman, except in 1846 on his daughter Mary's birth cert he is a clog maker. I was able to trace the other William (the collier) in the censuses proving they were seperate families. Sigh
You make a good point though, if they were not married maybe they waited until later in life and went elsewhere. His daughter Maria's marriage cert claims he was deceased by 1880 at her time of marriage. Is it possible that they NEVER married?
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1841 fisherman
1846 clogmaker
1851 fisherman
1861 fisherman
That seems a bit odd.
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Maybe he worked as a clogmaker during the parts of each year not conducive to fishing?
Certainly, in the Isle of Man, most men were fishermen-farmers.
So, depending on the time of year they would either declare themselves as fishermen or farmers.
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Yes and actually on his daughters marriage certificate i believe he is given as a carpenter so must have had to switch professions between 1871 and 1880.
I also cannot trace his wife Ann John in the 1881, or possibly she reverted to Griffiths if they never did marry, but maybe she died by 1881 too. I have checked every grave in the 2 obvious graveyards (St Dogmaels church and Blaenwaun chapel) with no luck so 1871 is the last mention of them.
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There is this death - Cardigan 11b pg 6 December quarter 1873
Anne John 52 yrs
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Did daughter Anne, marry Evan Davies in 1880?
1881 5427/72/19 - Greenfield Square, Cardigan
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Thanks for replies and suggestions.
I will buy a scan of that death later on and see.
Also I have just checked the 1881 and yes it could very well be daughter Annie as after all on that census result her husband Evan is a sailor and much of this family including my line lived at Greenfirld Square so this all fits in. I will reply back after I get the pdf.
Many thanks
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I will reply back after I get the pdf.
It won't take long as you can get the digital image instantly for £2.50 from GRO
Sorry if you know that already, but it seems quite a few people don't realise.
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There is a burial, 10 Dec 1873, of an Ann John age 55 on FreeReg
Mynachlog-ddu / St Dogmael
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5d0e7743f493fd4c97bab1f4
Is that the right place? Same person?
ADDED
Probably not x 2!
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Hi well I got the digital image just now, and bingo it even says wife of William John, Fisherman.
...and yes thanks for the advice re the digital image £2.50 option, I only learned of it about a year ago...hate to think of how much I've wasted over the years!
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To Johnw the death entry gives her death as 27th Oct at Bethsaida in St Dogmaels, a chapel. Age 52. Present at death was an Ann Williams... so daughter Ann might be a William's by 1873, and now I need to try to find out where that chapels cemetary is.
Thanks for the suggestion though. You have made me wonder whether the Archives might have a database of monumental inscriptions that can be searched
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To Johnw the death entry gives her death as 27th Oct at Bethsaida in St Dogmaels, a chapel. Age 52. Present at death was an Ann Williams... so daughter Ann might be a William's by 1873, and now I need to try to find out where that chapels cemetary is.
Thanks for the suggestion though. You have made me wonder whether the Archives might have a database of monumental inscriptions that can be searched
The death sounds correct. Daughter Ann was only 8 yrs in the 1871 census so that rules her out. There are a couple of neighbours called Ann Williams.
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An old post on the same family
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=559095.0
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There are these possible deaths - have you checked them?
1876 December quarter Cardigan 11b 6
William John 60 yrs
1879 September quarter Cardigan 11b 6
William John 63 yrs
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...and yes thanks for the advice re the digital image £2.50 option, I only learned of it about a year ago...hate to think of how much I've wasted over the years!
It has only been available recently so you probably found out about it around the time it started ;D
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Have you considered that Ann may have been a widow when she married William John.
Her maiden name would be given on birth certificates, but she would have married with another name.
Just a thought 🙂
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Lol yes of course, daughter Ann would only be little.
I forgot that I asked about this family all those years ago...shows how long it's been a problem for me. I have avoided the issue for much of that time mind, it's the familysearch fan chart that has inspired me to fill in gaps - if anyone has yet to try it, go for it you can then print out your tree as a fan chart on just one page of A4 (7 generations).
And no I had not considered that Ann could have been a widow when marrying Wiiliam...looking at freebmd there doesn't appear to be a relevant record for this but I appreciate the thinking outside the box which is kind of what I was hoping for in raising this thread.
I will get those deaths later to see if one is indeed William and at least I'll have his death date.
Are there any other tricks to get back a generation when you cant find a marriage record. Unfortunately there isn't an obvious christening for Ann Griffiths in Tremain or Blaenporth either which adds to the trouble.
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Going back to Ann John's death certificate, does it actually say she died in the Bethsaida Chapel.
Bethsaida Chapel was a Baptist Chapel and connected to Blaenywaun Chapel.
I think from your other earlier post that Mi's didn't show anything
I don't know about that area but Chapel registers are not the easiest to find.
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the archives in Aberystwyth have the MIs on fiche for Blaenwaun
https://www.archifdy-ceredigion.org.uk/sched/monumental.html
Or you can get the records from Dyfed Family History Soc
https://www.dyfedfhs.org.uk/
If anyone comes across the burial register for the church, please let the boards know. I'm probably not the only one with relatives there!
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Ok well I got the death certs and bingo, he was the 1879 one so now I have his death date.
I think Ann's death certificate suggests she died in chapel as it gives her place of death as Bethsaida. I can look up in the papers now to see if I can learn anymore of their lives.
As for the archives when I go I will ask re the burial register and let you know.