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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Carmarthenshire => Topic started by: 1982FordEscort on Monday 29 April 24 20:42 BST (UK)
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Hello, I am trying to trace the ancestry of David Harris, born on 1 May 1857 to William Harris and Lettice Lloyd in Llanddarog, according to his birth certificate. I cannot find a marriage record for William and Lettice.
I would like to go further back on his parents' lines but am struggling to locate him in early life census records, even allowing for spelling variations. I found Lettice's baptism record showing she was born on 13 January 1836 to William Lloyd and Anne Lewis in Llangendeirne.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Jack
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Do you have him on any census to confirm which is yours? Any wife, children, occupation etc in later years?
It is a fairly common name, further info may help
Cas
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He married Ann Howells on 17 November 1877 and had at least 3 children, Elizabeth around 1879, Mary around 1881, and William in 1883.
I've found him in the 1891 and 1901 censuses.
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I am trying to trace the ancestry of David Harris, born on 1 May 1857 to William Harris and Lettice Lloyd in Llanddarog, according to his birth certificate.
I cannot find a marriage record for William and Lettice.
What was his father’s occupation on birth certificate record and was there a street name in Llanddarog?
He married Ann Howells on 17 November 1877 and had at least 3 children, Elizabeth around 1879, Mary around 1881, and William in 1883.
I've found him in the 1891 and 1901 censuses.
Is this the 1891 census
Piece 4486
Folio 7
Page number 8
Neath Rd Llansamlet
David Harris 34 Head coal mine fire man (dittoed born Llansamlet)
Ann Harris 43 Wife
Elizabeth Harris 12 Daughter Llansamlet
Mary Harris 10 Daughter Llansamlet
William Harris 8 Son Llansamlet
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1881 entry shows birthplace as Bettws, Carmarthenshire
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Very interested in this thread for a number of reasons.
The names Howells and Harris appear in the William Cecil Lord Burghley FTDNA Project.
My research also has Lloyd attachments.
See following threads for your interest.
Mary Howells.bc.1778.d.?.m.5.11.1799LLandydie Walter LLOYD
John HOWELLS.b.1822Vowchurch.Bapt.26.8.1822.Vowchurch.d.1897Bettws,near Abergavenny.Buried PatricioChurchyard.
m.Emma LLOYD.b.1827.Colva/Gladestry,Radnoreshire.d.1888.Bettws.
Happy to explore options - good luck on your David Harris hunt.
Cheers
Jack Gee
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Is this the 1891 census
Piece 4486
Folio 7
Page number 8
Neath Rd Llansamlet
David Harris 34 Head coal mine fire man (dittoed born Llansamlet)
Ann Harris 43 Wife
Elizabeth Harris 12 Daughter Llansamlet
Mary Harris 10 Daughter Llansamlet
William Harris 8 Son Llansamlet
Yes, that is the 1891 census for him.
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I am trying to trace the ancestry of David Harris, born on 1 May 1857 to William Harris and Lettice Lloyd in Llanddarog, according to his birth certificate.
I cannot find a marriage record for William and Lettice.
What was his father’s occupation on birth certificate record and was there a street name in Llanddarog?
His father, William, was a coal miner.
I can't quite make out the place name above Llanddarog, looks like Pontawel??
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I found Lettice's baptism record showing she was born on 13 January 1836 to William Lloyd and Anne Lewis in Llangendeirne.
On her baptism father William occupation farmer
Lettice Lloyd
Birth Date 13 Jan 1836 Llangendeirne, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Baptism 20 Mar 1836 Abergwilly, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Denomination Calvinistic Methodist
Father Wm Lloyd Mother Anne Lewis
I can’t find a marriage to David Harris ??? Nor can I find the family on 1861 census - Perhaps they didn’t marry ?
Is this Lettice on 1851 census?
Lettice Lloyd Age 16 born Llangendeirne, Carmarthenshire, Wales, servant
Civil Parish or Township Llandefeilog
Town Scyborfawr Carmarthenshire
Sub-registration district Llangendeirne
Piece 2472
Folio 305
Page number 14
Have you seen this 1881 census entry could this be Lettice with her mother ?
Lettuce Davies Age 45 born Llangendeirne, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Civil parish Llanelly
Street Address 28 Panteg Row
Condition as to marriage Married
Piece 5375
Folio 92
Page number 7
Household Members
David Davies 48 Head occ Railway (Ry Lab)
Ann Lloyd 79 Mother in Law Llandyfeilog, Carmarthenshire
Looks as if they married 1860
Letitia Lloyd age 21
Marriage 26 Oct 1860 St Trinity Church Felinfoel Llanelly
Father William Lloyd , farmer
Spouse David Davies 21 cc block layer father Daniel, gardener
Both made their mark, abode Felinfoel
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Could it have been a different Lettice Lloyd that married William Harris? Or could William Harris have died between 1857 and 1860?
I'm not even certain that the birth certificate I've got is the right David Harris, to be honest. I've tried to attach a photo of it here but the image is apparently too big.
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Any more clues on the marriage to Ann? Address, witness names. I see they married in the Neath registration district.
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I also have a GRO copy of his marriage certificate, it states they were married on 17 November 1877. David was a collier, as was his father William, who was alive at that time.
Ann Howells' father David Howells (deceased) was also a collier. David Harris and Ann Howells lived in Glaish, Llansamlet, at the time.
Witnesses were William Harris, Peter Thomas, Jeremiah Daniel, and GB Haynes.
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Ignoring the birth certificate which I can't be certain is for him, could this be him in the 1861 census? Father's name William (coal miner), born in Bettws (lines up with 1881 census which I know is him), and born around the right time.
Name David Harries
Age 4
Estimated Birth Year abt 1857
Relation Son
Father's Name William Harries
Mother's Name Mary Harries
Gender Male
Where born Bettws, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Civil Parish or Township Llanguick
Ecclesiastical parish Cwmaman
County/Island Glamorgan
Country Wales
Registration district Neath
Sub-registration district Ystradgunlais
ED, institution, or vessel 19
Household schedule number 46
Neighbors View others on page
Piece 4091
Folio 102
Page number 10
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
William Harries
32
Head
Mary Harries
34
Wife
Elizabeth Harries
6
Daughter
David Harries 4 Son
Jacob Harries
2
Son
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There is this possible census which would link with the birthplace he gave in 1881 married with family.
Not finding any connection to the details you gave from BC, I think possibly not the correct one. Bettws would come under Llandilofawr reg district.
1871 - Llansamlet, Llansamlet Higher
Piece 5440, Folio 42, Page number 32
William Harries 42 Head, collier, Llandilo
Mary Harries 44 Wife "
Elizabeth Harries 17 Daughter "
David Harries 15 Son Bettws
Jacob Harries 13 Son "
Ann Harries 8 Daughter, Llansamlet
I would not be concerned about the spelling variations of Harris/Harries at this time. Many had little to no education and the enumerator wrote what he heard.
Added - was just posting 1871 when posts crossed
Cas
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There is this 1881 birthplaces match. Mary must have died and William remarried or with another just living together.
Reason I asked for marriage address thought there maybe a possibility they may be similar for this census
1881 - Cefn Y Garth, Llansamlet Higher
Piece 5365, Folio 6, Page number 5
William Harris 50 Head, miner, Llandilo Carmarthen
Unise Harris 48 Wife Maenclochog, Pembrokeshire
Jacob Harris 21 Son miner, Bettws, Carmarthen
Cas
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Can be found in 1901 in Glais, Llansamlet - Wife Eunice
1901 - Piece 5082, Folio 13, Page number 17
William Harries 71 Head, Llandilo
Eunice Harries 68 Wife
Did David remarry? There is a possible next door to the above couple wife Catherine
Added - 1911 Eunice a widow still in Glais
Cas
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Yes, David Harris remarried to Catherine at some point (presumably in the 1890s), though I'm not currently sure when Ann died or Catherine's maiden/previous surname.
I have not yet found a death record for David or Ann, or a marriage record for David and Catherine.
EDIT: I know this is correct as the 1901 census is a match for William Harris (b. 1883), whose line I am tracing.
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Looks like the correct family for David if they are living next door and past census info.
I would check for a death between 1891 & 1901 for Ann Harris/Harries you can include approx dob to narrow. There are 4 marriages in Swansea reg district 1892 - 1897 for David and Catherine if you can find a death for Ann it would narrow. Possible they did not marry.
Digital copies for birth and death are available from GRO for some years at a cost of £2.50 and are instant downloads.
Difficult with fairly common surnames, sometimes it is hit or miss. Only way is to view certs for info to know you have correct person.
Added - Check registration district needed
Good luck
Cas
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I believe this is the death record for Ann:
First name(s) Ann
County Glamorganshire
Last name Harris
Volume 11A
Sex Female
Page 527
Birth year 1848
Country Wales
Age 49
Death quarter 2
Death year 1897
District Swansea
Collections from Great Britain, Wales
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David and Catherine's 1911 census match:
Name David Harries
Age in 1911 52
Estimated Birth Year abt 1859
Relation to Head Head
Gender Male
Birth Place Cwmaman, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Civil parish Llansamlet
County/Island Glamorgan
Country Wales
Street Address Balaclava House Glais
Marital Status Married
Years Married 10
Estimated Marriage Year 1901
Occupation Coal Miner Hewer Underground
Registration district Swansea
Registration District Number 594
Sub-registration district Llansamlet
ED, institution, or vessel 01
Household schedule number 68
Piece 32800
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
David Harries 52 Head
Cathrine Harries
50
Wife
James Hamilton Evans
22
Boarder
Joshua Morris Evans
44
Boarder
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1921 free index. View full record for details - pay to view. Only 2 showing in household.
David William Harris 1857 b Glanaman, Carmarthenshire, living Swansea
Catherine Harris 1859 b Glais, Glamorganshire, Wales living Swansea
I put in address search for Glais only 1 hit came up.
Think he may have added William after death of father?
Cas
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https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CMN/gazetteer#G
Check Glanaman on link ties in birthplaces given. Having lived in Llansamlet since very young it is understandable he put some pob there.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CMN/Betws
Also
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CMN/LlandeiloFawr
Cas
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Bit of info on William's death (based on his address in 1901). translated from the original Welsh
22 April 1909
Peniel (Chapel) lost its oldest deacon, and one of its founders in the death of brother William Harris, Nicholas Road. He lived to the fair age of 79. Since the start of the year he had the 'crown of old age' [not sure what this is - perhaps he was oldest in the congregation?] No doubt his loyalty to the best cause has now secured him a better crown. God protect his grieving widow who is like him in the shadows of the evening [of life].
A resident of Glais.
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Possible marriage for William & Mary, first child Elisabeth born c1855. All first 3 children from census can be found with mmn Davies in reg district Llaneilofawr. So very possible.
Image online
Name William Harries
Marriage Age Full Age
Marriage Date 12 Dec 1854
Marriage Place Llandeilofawr, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Father David Harries, occ. Smith
Spouse Mary Davies, full age, spinster, father David occ. Lab
Page number 247
Cas
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Probate register entry for David Harris, of Danycoed House, Balaclava, Glais. Died 19 march 1922. Probate to widow Catherine. Effects £222 2s 6d
Added:
David W Harris
Age 65
Q1 1922
Swansea Vol 11a, p1703