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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: brigidmac on Saturday 18 May 24 08:23 BST (UK)
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Thirza Caer Carlyle MCCAUGHTRIE
1876 staffs
Married in Bolton Lancashire England
Edwin ROBERTS 1995 B Wales
They had 5 children
in Bolton Lancashire England
4 living in 1911
Emma 1898 Thomas Edwin 1902 Sarah1903 Robert 1899
So far no DNA links to them not found their spouses or children
BUT
Descendants of Edwins s sisters : Harriet & Emma ROBERTS
Have DNA matches to
Thirzas brother Edgar Hugh
I'm looking into possible explanations
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granddaughter of Emma ROBERTS
Has a 103cm match with a great grandchild of Edgar H mccaughtrie
They have shared matches with descendants of Emma's sister Harriet
But not with other known great nephews and nieces of Emma's other siblings
Their other Shared matches are with people whose common ancestors are Thomas MCAUGHTRY 1840 + Sarah Carlyle
After Edwins death Thirza & the 4 Roberts children live with her widowed father
1911 census says he had 14 children only 4 still living
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So I have a few theories to test out
the highest match to Emma's granddaughter is a closed tree but on a surname.search for spouses they have FRANKLAND which is Hugh Edgar's wife
256cm 4% 9 segments
The most likely relationship is half 1st cousin once removed. If there is a NPE
Could Edgar or his brother be birth father to Emma's husband,?
I wish I could set it out in a table
Theory 2 is that there has been some familial adoptions between the 2 families .
The connection to Harriet 1872 descendants could be a coincidence
But she was a single mother to daughter Mary Ann ROBERTS b1893
Baptised in Wigan
Matches to Mary Ann s SMITH , grandchildren are 136 cm 4 %
& 121cm 2% across 8 & 9 segmants
They are definitely half 2nd cousins once removed from mutual ancestors James ROBERTS +=Dorcas JONES
But likely to be full 2nd cousins 1 removed if MCCAUGHTRIE brothers were birth fathers of Mary Ann ROBERTS + Emma's daughter Mary Elizabeth CORNTHWAITE
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B
I’m struggling to visualise.
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Yes . I think I LL have to put it on paper as a scruffy chart and screenshot it
Can I give access to the tree on ancestry
It's provisionally called
DNA to.E H Mccaughtrie
Screenshots of Thirza Mccaughtrie s profile
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Emma Roberts profile
So no matches thru Edwin & Thurza
But matches between his sisters Harriet Rebecca ROBERTS & Mary Ann ROBERTS
+ Her brother
* Indicates shared matches
There are matches to other siblings Amelia + Louisa ROBERTS but they don't share DNA with Mccaughtrie descendants
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B
I’ve messaged you
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Thanks . I still need a graphic don't I
Is it wrong to suspect that a man between wives managed to impregnate 2 of his sister's sister in laws !
A bit close for comfort
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Attempt at graphic first try was too large now I think I've cut edges off
Surely descendants of the two families should not share DNA with in-laws only with the descendants of their own ancestors
Oh attachment too large still
I.ll take up Biggles offer of help with that
3rd and 4th generation s of the MCCAUTRIES descended from Thirza s half brother Allan 1862 & full brother Edgar H 1871
Match 1 grandchild of Edwins sister Emma and great grandchildren of his sister Harriet ROBERTS
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OK B
I will look at it tomorrow when I can can see the tree fullscreen on my PC
Scratch my head a few times, cast some runes, face east and seek guidance.
Then maybe we can work up options that could be worthy of development.
Or maybe a large Pims will help loosen the old grey cells at some point on the morrow.
Will get back to you via a PM.
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I've now identified 18 of the top 25 shared matches of the top match as having Mccaughtrie . Mcatree coughty
Having direct Connections to the common ancestor David COUGHTY B 1809
& Have matches thru 4 of his children
The strongest matches are thru son thomas Mccaughtrie 1840 & his son. Edgar Hugh mcCAUGHTRIE ( most common spelling in this family )
Next step is to look at locations and oportunnities for in laws to get together or possibility of familial adoptions .
The Mccaughtrie s were in Ayrshire Scotland in 1850s
The ROBERTS were in Wales
By 1900s one branch were neighbours of the Roberts who had moved to Lancashire for mining jobs .
In 1871 gamekeeper Thomas left his wife and 5 children and moved to Rawnsley Staffordshire England where he had 3 children with Sarah Carlyle.
Or took on 2 children 1871 & 1876and had another with her .1878
What was his job those years ?
Could he have also managed to have a child in 1875 in Lancashire ?
Not found him in 1881
But by 1901 he was "widowed "..can't read profession.( Possibly Hewer written over something)
With single daughter
2 doors down from his married daughter Thirza & Edwin ROBERTS
In WestHoughton a parish of Bolton
Lancashire
Sarah death registered as Mccaughtrie but if they had married before 1891 it would have been bigamy
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An aside From newspapers I think the gamekeeper David Mccaughtrie who was shot by poachers 1888 may have been the 5 year old son that Thomas left after 1871
2 other sons continued that profession
Daughter Sara Carr Carlisle Mccaughtrie died in workhouse age 41 single 1911
I can't find her birth or baptism ancestry just suggests her sister
Can anyone do a fuzzy search to find the family in 1881.maybe just using first names . Ive seen COUGHTREE mcAutrite as versions of their surname elsewhere
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I've printed out the Tree and looked at the information and sent you a PM
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Thanks so much Biggles
I've cleaned up the tree
& Merged duplicates
Running with theory 2 as Thomas being father of James CORNTHWAITE
& Am adding stars to profiles to indicate the number of children thru whom there is a DNA match
& Tagging proved common DNA ancestors
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For anyone following here's a link to the tree which I've renamed as a hypothesis tree hoping no unproven relationships
Will be copied
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/197717876/family
I put capital letters for direct ancestors
Tag DNA connections+ if they are DNA or paper common ancestors
+ I add stars in suffix box (before married names) to indicate how many of their children are DNA connections to home person HD
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Is the next step as simple as I think ?
If there are matches to Thomas s or second wife s family ( brothers . sister mother s maiden name but not children ) ie CARLYLE then the Dna link is via son Edgar Hugh senior 1876
If there are links to Thomas first wife ROBINSON then connection could be thru one of Edgar's half brothers (unlikely as they were in Scotland )
If no matches to either wives family it's More likely to be Thomas himself
Is that correct ?.
HD s grandfather James CORNTHWAITE was born to a single mother so I don't have a different maiden surname to test against.
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It looks like Thomas is James’s Father.
The 103cM match looks like a 2C1R relationship so that looks right.
If you have not done so and if you can upload the DNA to My Heritage and ftDNA and Gedmatch to see if you can get any other matches.
Getting an Auto Cluster chart on My Heritage can also help in identifying other matches.
It is difficult to be definitive and like a lot of DNA links there will not be a paper trails to help validate.
To this end on Ancestry profiles I add in a custom fact giving details of the assumptions etc. and the cM match between the two people in the tree ie. John Smith b1902 is a 103cM match with Jane Jones b1901.
One tree we built has a marriage between two second cousins so do keep options open.
I’d walk away, leave it a while, then revisit with a fresh outlook.
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Thanks. Biggles
I don't think I can download another person's DNA
It was a struggle talking HD through how to link her DNA to the tree and how to put herself not her mother as home person
We are on opposite sides of the world
Totally agree with your analysis & other matches corroborate
I'm now in touch with a descendant of Thomas Mccaughtrie s sister Isabella
Her late mother is a 93cm match to HD and on paper they would be 3rd cousins
The amount of matches is positive too.
Circumstances also meant that Thomas was at right location right years
There is a good reason that there are few CORNTHWAITE matches
James mother was Eleanor CLAPHAM there is a match to her sister Elizabeth Clapham
He thought his father was Thomas Worthington CORNTHWAITE son of Mary Cornthwaite ,single .& supposed father Thomas Worthing
But if his father was really Thomas Mccaughtrie . There would be no CORNTHWAITE ancestors &
only DNA connections thru his daughter's children or half siblings .
James Cornthwaite s own children may not all have been his .. the first was baptised as dorothy Cornthwaite ROBERTS ..the last Cornthwaite child & the only son to survive to adulthood was born years after James death death ! + In-between his wife was in Atherton before joining him in south Africa
Btw no Carlisle matches
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The 93cM does add to the hypothesis of Thomas being James’s Father.
If HD is willing to give you Management rights to their DNA and if they are also willing for their DNA to be uploaded to other sites then you could do it.
I talked my Cousin through assigning me the Management of his DNA and I now have his Raw DNA data on my PC which I am going to give to him when I send the family tree to him on a memory stick. Hence I could upload it to other sites for him, but as yet we have no need as his DNA unlocked some mysteries on his other line.
Do remember that at 2xGGP or more likely 3x and beyond that it is possible that no DNA is actually inherited by persons currently testing or recently tested.
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Thank you again
I will ask.her and must upload my own results at same time
Though it does look like more + more connections are unravelling .
+ I can add more stars to the tree
I remembered that I had a 6cm.less than 1% match (before ancestry cut off matches less than 8%=) to a 3xggson of frank Cornthwaite.
This person does not match my mum or my cousin or HD
Maybe the amounts are too small .
the reminder about 3xggparents is a reflection of that
I've got back to that Cornthwaite person. Will ask if they have other mutual matches from that family which don't show up on shared matches 😕
(Back to star adding ** instead of star gazing.
I ll update when more breakthroughs come up )
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These are some of the filters with colour codes which I'm using to look at connections. For this DNA linkef tree
I think I can delete the Cornthwaite name group .
.
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Re reply 2
Harriet Roberts single mum
Child may have been Rebecca not
Mary Ann ROBERTS B.1893 first quarter
Harriet's death was march 1893
Correct age to marry Richard Smith & have first child Thomas F C SMITH 1920 in Bury Lancashire
MODIFIED the connection of the Smith grandchildren ( 2 cousins ) & the Connaughtries DNA
Is that daughter of Edwin Roberts & Thirza Mccaughtrie married Richard SMITH
Mystery solved by rootschatter CAZ
on topic "who is Minnie smith "
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MODIFIED 43 thru line & counting now showing to
Thomas Mccaughtrie senior grandfather of our Thomas :father of Thirza +
James Cornthwaite
Thomas the younger has 18 thru lines
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Good grief
You have the dreaded Atherton’s.
One of my DNA Cousins is an Atherton.
Took five years to get this 96cM match into my tree, there are hundreds born with a certain forename in a certain time period.
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Biggles don't panic it's Atherton the town not ATHERTON surname I find colour codes for specific areas useful
Btw answered your pm last night but sent to wrong person ! Need more information!
I see the name everywhere but so far none of my Lancashire relatives have that surname.