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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => East Lothian (Haddingtonshire) => Topic started by: grahamd15 on Sunday 23 June 24 10:27 BST (UK)
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I'm hoping someone can help with figuring out how to get further with one of my ancestors, Elizabeth Outerside, I've reached quite a dead end with her and in searching for "Outerside" on ScotlandsPeople it seems as if there were not many with that surname.
Elizabeth was the mother of one Peter Rennie, born 18 April 1823 in Whittinghame, East Lothian and baptised 9 May 1823. The witnesses of the baptism were Richard Sandilands (who I believe was the stepfather of Peter's father, William) and William Muir. Peter was illegitimate. William Rennie was born 27 Apr 1798 and went on to marry a Janet Robertson in 1829 he died in 1878.
There is one possibility that I've found, an Elizabeth baptised 1809 in Inveresk to John Outerside and Elizabeth Wright. If the baptism date is close to her birthdate then she would have only been 13 when giving birth to Peter, which is possible but I am unable to confirm if this is her.
Peter went on to marry Agnes Stewart (Agnes already had a daughter Agnes) and had:
- Isabella
- William
- Peter
- Janet Elisabeth
- Margaret
- Mary Cooper Stewart
By the Scottish naming pattern, Peter's mother would be Isabella, so I guess that could be another possibility although I know Isabella/Elizabeth seemed to be somewhat interchangeable in Scotland at that time. To give a wider scope for the naming pattern, Agnes' parents were William Stewart and Agnes Ballantine, and her grandmothers' maiden names were Stephenson and Purves respectively. I have not been able to find a "Cooper" on that side as of yet. So potentially this comes from the Outerside side.
Any help and thoughts to break through this brickwall would be greatly appreciated!
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In the Kirk Session Minutes it records they were "compared" on 18 May 1823 but no record of first name for Elizabeth, it simply states Outerside.
WILLIAM RENNIE/ELIZABETH OUTERSIDE
PETER RENNIE 9/05/1823 WHITTINGEHAM
Colin
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Might be worth looking at this marriage/banns, but I have not come across the Isobel link to Elizabeth.
ISABEL OUTERSIDE to JOHN BURNSIDE 31/05/1817 WHITTINGEHAME
ISOBEL OUTERSIDE to JOHN BURNSIDE 31/05/1817 CANONGATE
Colin
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Thanks for that ColC!
I've found these children in the Church Registers:
- John Burnside to John Burnside and Isabel Outerside 27/09/1818 Morham
- William Burnside to John Burnside and Elizabeth Oughterside 21/01/1821 Stenton
- Elizabeth Burnside to John Burnside and Elizabeth Oughterside 24/08/1823 Stenton
Based on Elizabeth Burnside's baptism, it looks as if her mother can't be the same as Peter Rennie's due to the closeness in time.
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In the Kirk Session Minutes it records they were "compared" on 18 May 1823 but no record of first name for Elizabeth, it simply states Outerside.
It's not 'compared', it's 'compeared', and it just means that William Rennie appeared before the Kirk Session. Nothing to do with comparisons.
Elizabeth, clearly, did not 'compear' at the same time as William Rennie.
Interesting that the very next case involved a David Outerside being accused of fathering Catherine Amos' child.
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Thanks for the explanation. Could you please help with the next lines after Williams name, not to sure about the first word but it ends with ing and continues
"his sorrow for the sin of fornication of Outerside".
Colin
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"Compeared William Rennie professing his sorrow for the sin of Fornication with Outerside. He was solemnly exhorted by the Minister to repentance and amendment of life, and as he appeared sorry for his offence he was absolved from the scandal."
It's actually quite an odd record, because normally the woman compears first, and is interrogated who the father is, and then both compear together at a later date. If he admits he's the father they are rebuked and given a good talking to, and they have to pay a penalty, and then they are 'absolved' and 'dismissed'.
There has to be a reason why Elizabeth Outerside didn't compear. For example she might have belonged to a different religious denomination; the kirk would only deal with its own members. I think if she'd been ill, or dead, I'd have expected the minute to say so.
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Isabella is the Spanish equivalent of the Hebrew name Elizabeth. However the number of families in Scotland with both a daughter Isabella and a daughter Elizabeth suggests that this wasn't widely known, and IME it's fairly rare to find a provable case of both versions of the name being used by the same person, rather than an error by a parish clerk making it appear so.
But it isn't all that critical in this case because, as grahamd has pointed out, the dates of baptism would preclude Elizabeth Outerside, wife of John Burnside in Morham and Stenton, being the same Elizabeth Outerside who had an illegitimate son by William Rennie in Whittinghame.
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Thanks for both of your help!
Where can I access these Kirk Session Minutes? I have a few others in my tree that may have appeared and hadn't realised there was this resource.
Very interesting that there is a David Outerside right after William, are the Kirk Sessions organised by parish? There was a David Outerside baptised 17/05/1803 in Whittinghame to William Outerside and Elizabeth Paterson. Perhaps Outerside was my Elizabeth's married name? Would the minute have mentioned if it were an affair or if she were a widow?
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Where can I access these Kirk Session Minutes? I have a few others in my tree that may have appeared and hadn't realised there was this resource.
At www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk > Advanced Search > Kirk Sessions.
are the Kirk Sessions organised by parish?
Yes. The Kirk Session is the committee that manages the affairs of a parish.
In the first half of the 19th century, and in some parishes both before and after that, most Kirk Sessions devoted most of their time to (pretty futile) attempts to stamp out extramarital sexual activity among their parishioners.
There was a David Outerside baptised 17/05/1803 in Whittinghame to William Outerside and Elizabeth Paterson. Perhaps Outerside was my Elizabeth's married name? Would the minute have mentioned if it were an affair or if she were a widow?
No it isn't her married name. In Scotland, women don't legally lose their maiden surnames when they marry. A married woman is referred to in legal documents as xxx yyy or zzz, where xxx is her given name(s), yyy is her maiden surname and zzz is her husband's surname.
And yes, if she had been a widow I'd have expected to Kirk Session minutes to say so. Note that the baptism record also gives her name as just Elizabeth Outerside.
FWIW I don't think the one baptised in 1809 is your Elizabeth Outerside, unless she wasn't baptised in infancy. You'd need to look at the original baptism records to see what else it tells you. She must be one of the many people whose baptism record, if it ever existed, has not survived. My guess would be that she is a sister to David Outerside, but it is only a guess.
Out of curiosity I searched for Outerside baptisms using o*t*r*s*d* and they are few and far between. See screenshot.
Speculation. There's a death of a female Outerside, given name not recorded, in Prestonpans in 1821. Does Peter Rennie's baptism give his date of birth? Could the unnamed woman be Elizabeth dying giving birth to Peter, but it took some time for the Kirk Session to catch up with William? If I were you I'd want to have a look at the Prestonpans Kirk Session records just on the off-chance. Though if it was her I'd have expected the Whittinghame KS records to say that she was dead, so maybe not.
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The 1809 Elizabeth Outerside's baptismal record only lists the date of baptism unfortunately, Peter Rennie was born on the 18th April 1823 and baptised 9th May so it looks as if the Unknown Outerside in Prestonpans can't be my Elizabeth.
It does seem to be a very rare name in terms of lack of records, unfortunately.
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I wonder?
Elizabeth Outterside
Christening 8 June 1783
Tanfield, Durham, England
Parents James Outterside
Colin
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This on freereg but not SP?
Isabel Elizabeth OUTERSTON born 10 Sep 1789 baptised 20 Sep 1789
Haddington : Haddington Parish Church : Unspecified
parents William OUTERSTON & Elizabeth PATERSON
Wit. John Waterston & John Paterson
Colin
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Marriage
OUTERSTON
WILLIAM
ELIZABETH PATERSON
01/01/1789
HADDINGTON
JOHN OUTERSTON
08/04/1792 HADDINGTON
ELIZABETH OUTERSTON
22/03/1795 HADDINGTON
Colin
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Always possible, though the first one would have been nearly 40 when Peter Rennie was baptised.
The 1789 is on SP - spelled Oaterston
And if William Outerston is William Outerside, he and Elizabeth Paterson had an Elizabeth in 1795, implying that the one born in 1789 must have died young. But the 1795 one is a possibility - and she would be David's sister.
See screenshot.
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Good find Colin!
Interesting that the listing on freereg is Isabel Elizabeth. I wonder if the witness Waterston could be another iteration of the Outerside name?
I think that the 1795 Elizabeth is a very strong possibility, I will have to get the baptism record at some point, to see if there's anything else that I can glean from it.
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I bought the 1875 Death Certificate for Isabella Outerson and unfortunately it looks as if the Outersides/Outersons you both found may not be immediately related to my Elizabeth. This Isabella was married to John Burnside and passed away at 82 years old making her born abt 1793, her parents were William Outerson and Elizabeth Paterson.