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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Armagh => Topic started by: R Lennon on Sunday 15 December 24 19:51 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
A family photo has been found which has annotation on the back for Michael McGrory and for 1866.
It must have been passed down to my family through Teresa McGrory my great grandmother and daughter of Michael McGrory (b. 1856) and Sarah McKenna (b/1861). If this is indeed Michael at age 10 taken in 1866, then it could also be with his parents Edward and MaryAnne Magrory, and maybe taken at their home in Loughgilly Parish, Armagh.
Can anyone verify any of this or source any more information?
Kind regards,
Ruairi
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I think it would be best to get this photo dated on this board
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/free-photo-restoration/
I am no dater but I would be hard pressed to think that this photograph was taken in 1866. It looks more late Victorian/Edwardian and the presence of a uniformed soldier makes me wonder as well
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Great idea! posted there and see if anyone has any thoughts.
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Welcome to RootsChat, Ruairi :)
Can anyone verify any of this or source any more information?
Here's the URL link for the marriage of Michael McGrory to Sarah McKenna - 22 May 1884 at Ballymacnab RC Church. Michael a farmer living at Knockavannon.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1884/10906/5983742.pdf
Knockavannon townland.
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/fews-upper/ballymyre/ballymyre/knockavannon/
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Welcome from me too :)
From the ladies blouse and skirt outfits, I would say that this is more a photo from the period 1910-1920s.
Is there anything on the back?
Gadget
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It could be even later - I'll check my photo dating books and get back.
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See back of photo
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My Jayne Shrimpton dating books suggest the dates that I've give.
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Welcome from me too :)
From the ladies blouse and skirt outfits, I would say that this is more a photo from the period 1910-1920s.
Is there anything on the back?
Gadget
So the soldier could conceivably be a 1914-1918 soldier?
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Very likely.
Online websites:
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~victorianphotographs/history/date/main.htm
https://jayneshrimpton.co.uk/blog/
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The officer's uniform tells us that this photo cannot predate 1902. That was the year that officers started wearing cuff rank insignia of the type shown in the photo. Cuff ranks were in use 1902-1920.
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The officer's uniform also tells us that the photo can't predate 1902. He is wearing khaki service dress. That first came into use at 'home" in 1902, and was universal by the end of 1903.
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Further, the officer isn't wearing any medal ribbons. That implies the latest date for the photo is 1918. If he had served during the Great War, he would have had medal ribbons post 1918.
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OP - the officer is a British army lieutenant, in 1902-1918 period. Does that fit with anyone in your family? If you could make a higher resolution scan, concentrating on his collar tags, it should be possible to determine his regiment or corps.
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Compare the ladies' blouses with this ~
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~victorianphotographs/history/date/a1918.htm
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Hi All,
I've also found a letter posted to the McGrory family in the same collection.
Its dated 1917 so it could match with the corrected date of the family photo in the period up to the great war. On the letter is noted "P'vte Ingleton". Could this be the private soldier in the family photo.
Also taking note of my family tree in ancestry here:
https://www.ancestry.com/invite-ui/accept?token=sEnNdM2khnmSh_TkPEWagOoQvrOmh_nyOWUOC2Ddv8M=
If we then take Teresa McGrory (b 1889 d.1978) as one of the young ladies in the photo with the parents Michael McGrory (1856-1929) and Sarah McKenna (b. 1861). I have Michael McGrory born in Armagh, then his chidren born in England who then immigrated later back to Armagh.
I don't know who the soldier in the family is.
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'possible' 1911 census for this family
which has two children Teresa born c1889 and Michael born c 1893 both born in England
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
gives two results in Gateshead, for these names with MMN of McKenna/McKerma (near enough to McKenna)
and there is a ww1 service record for a Michael A McGrory which may be worth exploring to see if he's the young man in uniform - born 1893, address at enlistment was Amargh, service no 74343 Royal Garrison Artillery. That record says he married a Gladys Rose Young in 1916
Boo
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Thanks for finding the regiment number.
I was able to find his military records as a gunner including discharge in 1919 back to his residence in Liverpool, which may be the same address as the posted letter.
I was also able to confirm his birth date of 17 May 1893 in Durham instead of 1883, as confirmed by his baptism records with parents Michael McGrory and Sarah mcKenna. This then puts Michael A McGrory as aged 23 in the photo, the spitting image of his father too without a doubt. Then Theresa McGrory would have been older still around 28 years old, most likely in this photo as the older of the young ladies.
That then leads to who the others in the photo are. Is the lady to the right of michael then his newly wed wife of Gladys dressed in black surrounded by the mcgrory sisters? Could this photo have been taken around the wedding of 1916 or around the time of 1917 when the letter was posted to liverpool. was this photo taken in liverpool or back in the parents home in armagh.
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On the letter is noted "P'vte Ingleton". Could this be the private soldier in the family photo.
No. The soldier in the family photo is not a private soldier at all. He is an officer. A Lieutenant to be precise.
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I see you have added that service record I found to your tree, it says that his parents are listed in the next of kin section on enlistment as parents Michael and Sarah, then after he married it would be his wife which is a good match for your man.
However, I know very little about army uniforms and Wexflyer says the man wearing uniform on the photo was an officer so I'm not at all certain this could be 'your' Michael McGrory jnr in the photo as the service record says he was a Bombadier (or Lance Bombadier) so maybe attaching the photo is a bit of a long shot unless you have other info to confirm this?
Is that 'letter' actually a letter or is it a business card?
It looks like a business card which has M.A. McGrory's job title, employer and business address and also his Pvte (home/private) address. of Ingleton, Aigburth Hall Road, Liverpool
The Garston 1917 is not a date but a home telephone number. I haven't looked for other years but there's definitely one in the British Phone Books, 1880-1984 on Ancestry (which you seem to have access to) matching this name, address and tel no in 1946
FindMyPast have images for the marriages at parish church at Buckland in the record set kent-marriages-and-banns and this marriage record will be in there and will give you their fathers' names and occupations.
a free search of the 1921 census shows a Michael Aloysius McGrory (born 1893, Armagh) and a Gladys Rosa McGrory (born 1895, Chichester, Sussex) living in Liverpool . That would match with the possible service record I posted. Now though we know your Michael jnr was born in Gateshead and not Armagh, he did grow up in Armagh and is on the 1901 census there
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Clady/Cladybeg/1016605/
If you don't have access to FindMyPast then maybe your library does or you could sign up for a free trial and get the images for both the marriage and the 1921 register
The couple are listed on the 1939 register in Chichester and give birth dates (though the original date for Michael was later altered by the NHS)
I'm nosey and downloaded the birth register entry for the Michael McGrory who was born in Gateshead as additional verification - I've attached it for you.
Boo
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The same query is now on photo board. Because photo submissions on that board are checked for copyright etc., it seems to have only appeared recently.
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Hi,
I've scanned a higher resolution picture including a very close up of a badge on the soldier's collar.
I've also found the phone book directory for Garston phone no. 1917, great find thanks.
I did post on the other forum after posting this on recommentation, surprised it took a while to get approved and then this topic took off.
I don't know about the military uniform either, I was hoping the M.A Mcgrory who has a business card in Liverpool and was in the regiment as a bombardier would be this solder. If this officer in this photo of the McGrory family is not the bombardier, I'm not sure who it is.
Also on the back of the photo i found faint text that reads:Yours truly Lurene Fox. Michael McGrory had a daughter Lurena and who was sister to Teresa McGrory, but I can't find any confirmation if this Lurene Fox who signed the photo is Lurena McGrory.
I'll follow up more over the weekend and should I request other post to be cancelled or ask them to detail the soldier/officer?
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The officer in the photo is absolutely not a bombardier, which is the name for the equivalent of corporal within the artillery corps.
I don't recognize the officers regimental badge. If you repost the photo in the armed forces sub-forum, I am sure they will be able to identify.
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The officer in the photo is absolutely not a bombardier, which is the name for the equivalent of corporal within the artillery corps.
I don't recognize the officers regimental badge. If you repost the photo in the armed forces sub-forum, I am sure they will be able to identify.
I am seeing, I think, some medal ribbons above the pocket in the enlarged photo. Would that be possible?
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I am seeing, I think, some medal ribbons above the pocket in the enlarged photo. Would that be possible?
Good catch. Faint, but possible.
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The couple to the left in the front row seem to be 'dressed up' with the woman having a corsage and the man wearing semi formal dress with a grey waistcoat. The woman looks to have lighter (greyish) hair bit this could be an artifact of the photograph Could the picture be taken at a significant wedding anniversary for the couple say 25 years or to celebrate the homecoming of the son after war-service?
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I can’t see anyone aged 10 in that photo.
To me it looks more like a company staff / work place photo. All women employees (because it was war time) – all much the same age, along with the boss/ owner of the company.
Anything to do with the National Cash Register Co in Liverpool?
I note the back of the photo has been signed. Your truly …? ( a close up needed)
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[snipped]
Also on the back of the photo i found faint text that reads:Yours truly Lurene Fox. Michael McGrory had a daughter Lurena and who was sister to Teresa McGrory, but I can't find any confirmation if this Lurene Fox who signed the photo is Lurena McGrory.
I'm sorry to keep correcting you but this daughter Lurena only exists in the transcription on Ancestry for the 1891 census but that's incorrect, the image says Teresa.
1911 census in Armagh states Michael McGrory snr and his wife have been married 27 years and in that time have had 3 children all of who were still alive.
As Neale1961 says a close up scan of that yours truly [Q_ ?] Fox would be needed.
Boo
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Hi Please see the text that refers to "yours truly... Fox" on the back of the photo.
For lurena McGrory who was 2 in that census I cannot find any other records.
There were significant events for the mcgrory family between 1915 and 1917:
Wedding of Teresa McGrory with Patrick Lamph in Sep 1915 in Armagh.
Wedding of Michael A. McGrory and Gladys Rose Young in Oct1916 in Dover, England.
We can now be sure this photo is not in 1866 and is not of a 10 year old Teresa McGrory.
Therefore the photo could be a family photo at one of these weddings, or alternatively a work group photo of the business in Liverpool which Michael A. McGrory has the business card.
The high resolution photo's couldn't be attached here due to file size so the better photos are here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1s-C-WlI5-D0vvTMcdnc5D6f7NIfzE_Zb/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17Fbtx6wpo23He9AmMnBATnsLhGG8CBsT/view?usp=drive_link
It does seem to be medal ribbons above the pocket, but hard to see in this close. I can submit this in the armed forces subforum for further analysis.
So far I'm learning so much from this (very happy to take corrections).
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Queenie? Fox
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I also see Queenie when adjusted with Photoshop. It's the old fashioned Q that losks like an elaborate 2.
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Queenie could be a name in itself.
Or, if a nickname, could refer to a Victoria, Alexandria, or Mary, depending on when she got the moniker.
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Hi Please see the text that refers to "yours truly... Fox" on the back of the photo.
For lurena McGrory who was 2 in that census I cannot find any other records.
Please read reply no 27 in this thread. There was NO child of this name, so there ARE NO records.
Ancestry has mistranscribed the entry (they aren't too reliable at the best of times and this writing is particularly challenging)
On the image (which is the original record) children listed are Mary M(argaret), aged 4 and Teresa (aged 2).
Boo
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There were significant events for the mcgrory family between 1915 and 1917:
Wedding of Teresa McGrory with Patrick Lamph in Sep 1915 in Armagh.
The wedding on 30 June 1915 at Ballymacnab RC Church in Keady R.D.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1915/09816/5564314.pdf
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There is a marriage of a John McGrory to an Annie Fox in England in 1914. Any link to this family?
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Having 3 threads on the same subject is getting very messy!
I see that JenB also sees the name as Queenie:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=888118.msg7614193#msg7614193
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Also on the back of the photo i found faint text that reads:Yours truly Lurene Fox. Michael McGrory had a daughter Lurena and who was sister to Teresa McGrory, but I can't find any confirmation if this Lurene Fox who signed the photo is Lurena McGrory.
Just popped in from your other thread :D
I’m pretty certain that the ‘yours truly’ name is Queenie.
The first letter is certainly a capital ‘Q’.
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At least two of us have seen it as Queenie, Jennifer.
2+1 = 3 :)
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There is a marriage of a John McGrory to an Annie Fox in England in 1914. Any link to this family?
Queenie fox makes sense, thanks for the update. There is a John mcgrory ( 1858-1941) uncle to the Michael a mcgrory and brother to michael mcgrory in my family tree. That John was born and died in armagh, I have no spouse identified and no records of marriage to a fox in England. Maybe?
I'll try to separate out the other post in armed forces to identify the soldier and this post for family history in armagh.
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At least two of us have seen it as Queenie, Jennifer.
2+1 = 3 :)
I see Queenie as well. That is the way I was taught to make a capital 'Q".
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I see Queenie as well. That is the way I was taught to make a capital 'Q".
Those of us of a certain age ;)
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There are a few mentions of "Ingleton" Aigburth Hall Rd in newspapers, including this marriage announcement in 1916:
Thursday, June 1, 1916
Publication: The Times
Not sure that it necessarily relates to your album.