RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: mattjreid on Thursday 19 December 24 22:00 GMT (UK)
-
Hi everyone.
I'm looking for the birth and death dates for my ancestors, Thomas Murphy and Catherine Driscoll of rural Clonakilty.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1868/11455/8208993.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1868/11455/8208993.pdf)
They marry in 1868; have a bunch of kids - including one of my great-grandfathers (John Murphy) in 1876 - and then disappear.
Their ages in the marriage certificate say 'Of Full Age', and I have verified Thomas's birth as 1841.
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=cork%20%26%20ross.clonakilty.p4772.00215
(https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=cork%20%26%20ross.clonakilty.p4772.00215)
I've tried looking at the following:
- death certificates in Clonakilty from 1876 to 1930
- census records in 1901 and 1911 in any district of Ireland, using a combination of their names and their childrens' names; however, a search for a Thomas and Catherine Murphy in Ireland yields thousands of results
- searched the fathers' names in Clonakilty
- searched keywords of their known locations: Clashflugh; Ballinoroher; Ballinrougher (I have a good idea of where they lived).
- census records of their last known location
My great-grandfather John Murphy next appears in Belmullet, County Mayo in 1911 when his first daughter is born. I cannot find any of his siblings: Daniel, Michael, Catherine, and Patrick.
My guess is that they and the parents have left Clonakilty - but how to confirm this? And how to find the birth registration of Catherine Driscoll, son of John Driscoll?
-
My great-grandfather John Murphy next appears in Belmullet, County Mayo in 1911 when his first daughter is born.
So there is no record of where, when and to whom he married?
-
He married Kate Dixon, however, I can't find a wedding record. They have a joint grave near Belmullet, so the union is certain.
-
My guess is that they and the parents have left Clonakilty - but how to confirm this?
There are basically two main possibilities:
- They emigrated. Most probably to the US, but could be elsewhere. This is more likely if there is no further record for multiple people, as appears to be the case here.
- Deaths simply not registered. But this is less likely of there are no death or marriage records for multiple people.
-
He married Kate Dixon, however, I can't find a wedding record. They have a joint grave near Belmullet, so the union is certain.
So what brought John to Belmullet (occupation)?
Could Kate have been a widow, such that the marriage is indexed under her previous married name?
-
Thomas is the father from 1841; John is the son from 1876.
I'm not sure what brought John Murphy to Belmullet. My knowledge of this family branch is thin because Kate and John disowned their son (another Thomas) for marrying my non-catholic grandmother.
Kate was 25 on the birth of the first child between her and John; I have her age because of a death record of a Kate Murphy in Belmullet matching her grave; I have her maiden name because of the birth record my grandfather Thomas.
I have no 1901 or 1911 census records for the young Kate Dixon. I have what I think is her birth record between Darby Dixon and Mary Connell, also in Belmullet.
-
I have her maiden name because of the birth record my grandfather Thomas.
Well, that birth registration must give the father's occupation?
-
And how to find the birth registration of Catherine Driscoll, son of John Driscoll?
There isn't going to be a birth registration for her. Registrations only started in 1864. What you need is a parish register entry.
-
Have you checked to see if the witnesses to the marriage, Daniel Murphy and Michael Driscoll are related and how?
-
I can see two possible baptisms for Catherine Driscoll, daughter of John in the parish of Clonakilty, in an 1830 to 1850 timeframe:
- baptized 28/7/1839,
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632936?locale=en#page/78/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632936?locale=en#page/78/mode/1up)
and
- baptized 8/12/1839
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632936?locale=en#page/80/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632936?locale=en#page/80/mode/1up)
-
I have her maiden name because of the birth record my grandfather Thomas.
Well, that birth registration must give the father's occupation?
Yes, the birth record states John's occupation as "labourer".
-
I can see two possible baptisms for Catherine Driscoll, daughter of John in the parish of Clonakilty, in an 1830 to 1850 timeframe:
- baptized 28/7/1839,
and
- baptized 8/12/1839
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632936?locale=en#page/80/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632936?locale=en#page/80/mode/1up)
Thank you, I will follow these up
-
Yes, the birth record states John's occupation as "labourer".
Well, Clonakilty to Belmullet would be a very unusual move for a laborer.
So, I have to ask, what is the link to show that the John Murphy of Belmullet is the same John Murphy born in Clonakilty?
-
Have you checked to see if the witnesses to the marriage, Daniel Murphy and Michael Driscoll are related and how?
I will follow up on this.
From memory, Daniel Murphy is is Griffith's valuation for the area; he and Ellen Mahony I think are the parents of Thomas, from his baptism record. However, the Daniel on the marriage record could be a brother.
Also from memory, Michael Driscoll appears as a father in Clashflugh, Clonakilty a few times in the early 1870s. I assume he is Catherine's brother.
-
I see four children for John Murphy and Kate Dixon in Belmullet
Mary Feb 1911
John, Apr 1912
Kathleen Dec 1913
Thomas Dec 1919
OP - are you aware of any others?
The eldest, Mary, was born before the 1911 census.
The gap from 1913 to 1919 might suggest that John was away during the Great War.
-
Yes, the birth record states John's occupation as "labourer".
Well, Clonakilty to Belmullet would be a very unusual move for a laborer.
So, I have to ask, what is the link to show that the John Murphy of Belmullet is the same John Murphy born in Clonakilty?
I don't have a source for this, however, my mother knows a cousin who said that John was from Clonakilty; another who I assume is a second cousin of mine has a family tree on ancestry with Thomas Murphy and Catherine Driscoll at the top (all the other family members check out).
I have found a census record for.a 28-year-old John Murphy from Cork in Belmullet in 1901, working as a "Ploughman Domestic Servant".
You're correct that I don't have any hard evidence linking the 1876 John Murphy to the one that does in Belmullet, but this is the best I've got!
-
I see four children for John Murphy and Kate Dixon in Belmullet
Mary Feb 1911
John, Apr 1912
Kathleen Dec 1913
Thomas Dec 1919
OP - are you aware of any others?
The eldest, Mary, was born before the 1911 census.
The gap from 1913 to 1919 might suggest that John was away during the Great War.
There is also a Patrick Joseph Murphy born to Kate and John in Belmullet in 1915.
-
Here are John, Catherine and Mary in the 1911 census.
They are listed as relatives of the farmer they are living with.
John is listed as born Co. Cork, and married 1 year.
https://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002971922/ (https://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002971922/)
-
Thanks Wexflyer. The ages of the parents are slightly out, but I imagine the recorders sometimes make mistakes. All other details check out.
Do you have a location for the this household?
-
Do you have a location for the this household?
House 7 in Carn (Nash) (Binghamstown, North, Mayo)
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Binghamstown__North/Carn__Nash_/709547/
-
Thanks everyone who commented. I will assume that the Murphys of Clonakilty migrated - except for John.
For any film fans who may be following this thread: little Mary later emigrated to Pennsylvania, giving birth to an actor who had minor roles in Star Wars and Who Framed Roger Rabbit?
https://www.starwars.com/news/richard-leparmentier-saluting-the-admiral (https://www.starwars.com/news/richard-leparmentier-saluting-the-admiral)
-
Some comments for OP:
I think it pretty certain that John and Catherine were married, but the marriage went unregistered. Which was quite possible in Ireland. A parish records may exist, but would have to be followed up locally.
Second, as Thomas Murphy was a farmer, it should be possible to trace what happened to his farm in the property tax records held by the Valuation Office. These can be consulted in Dublin, and were microfilmed by the LDS church. Should show who succeeded to the farm after Thomas, and roughly when.
-
I have no 1901 or 1911 census records for the young Kate Dixon. I have what I think is her birth record between Darby Dixon and Mary Connell, also in Belmullet.
Here is an alternative for you:
Kate Dixon, baptized 24 July 1887, Kilmore Erris - same parish Mary Murphy was baptized in in 1911.
Address Moorrahan, parents John Dixon and Bridget Monohan.
Here is that family in 1901
https://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001070852/ (https://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001070852/)
UPDATE - this is not OP's Kate Dixon.
-
Here is the correct Kate Dixon in the 1901 census, living with the same Lavelle family as in 1911, in same location
https://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001070544/ (https://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001070544/)
Kate appears to have siblings John and Martin.
-
If the Martin Dixon, age 10 in 1901 census, is Kate's brother, then he points to a Dixon-Lavelle couple as her correct parents. But dates don't agree well :(
-
Both John (1895) and Martin Dixon (1890) appear to be the children of Thomas Dixon and Mary Lavelle.
-
I have no 1901 or 1911 census records for the young Kate Dixon. I have what I think is her birth record between Darby Dixon and Mary Connell, also in Belmullet.
That Kate Dixon is here on the 1901 census:
https://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001070573/ (https://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001070573/)
-
Both John (1895) and Martin Dixon (1890) appear to be the children of Thomas Dixon and Mary Lavelle.
I have run into a major contradiction. Here are Thomas and Mary (Lavelle) Dixon in the 1901 census, with son Martin, and daughter Catherine, in the townland of Corclogh. The location where John (1895) and Martin (1890) were born.
https://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001070579/ (https://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001070579/)
-
Here is the correct Kate Dixon in the 1901 census, living with the same Lavelle family as in 1911, in same location
https://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001070544/ (https://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001070544/)
Kate appears to have siblings John and Martin.
The Catherine Lavelle in the 1901 and 1911 census returns is nee Catherine Dixon, widow of Anthony Lavelle.
-
The ages for the Lavelle family on the 1901 and 1911 census returns are somewhat off.
For example, Anthony was born 1871, but is said to be 25 in 1901, and 45 in 1911.
-
Here is the correct Kate Dixon in the 1901 census, living with the same Lavelle family as in 1911, in same location
https://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001070544/ (https://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001070544/)
Kate appears to have siblings John and Martin.
The Catherine Lavelle in the 1901 and 1911 census returns is nee Catherine Dixon, widow of Anthony Lavelle.
You've done some good work on this, please confirm if my summary - in reverse chronological order - is correct:
* My great-grandmother - Kate Dixon - dies in 1975 aged 89; this is supported by the grave and the death certificate. This puts her birth year as around 1886
* She gave birth to five children to John Murphy, all in Belmullet: most recent is Thomas (my maternal grandfather); eldest is Mary (later went by the name of Maureen, mother to the actor Richard LeParmentier)
* Kate is living with cousin Anthony Lavelle's family with John and infant daughter Mary in 1911. The household includes her aged aunt Catherine
* She is living with aunt Catherine's family in 1901, along with her two kid brothers Martin and John. Also in the household are aunt Rose and her husband Michael.
Can we assume the following:
* The Dixon children are orphaned, given the young age of John Dixon?
* The Lavelle family have a larger-than-average farm, and are in regular need of labour. Along comes outsider John Murphy of Cork and he seems like a good match for Kate?
-
You've done some good work on this, please confirm if my summary - in reverse chronological order - is correct:....
I would agree with this, with the exception of the following.
Having found some discrepancies, I no longer think we can assume that the Kate, John and Martin Dixon listed with the Lavelle family on the 1901 census are siblings. They may all be nieces/nephews of Catherine (Dixon) Lavelle, but may be cousins of one another rather than brother and sister. Lots of Christian names in common in multiple Dixon families.
Also, I don't think we can accept at face value any of the ages - John Dixon could have been older than 3.
Finally, not sure that they are orphans - the two sets of potential parents identified so far for Kate are both alive in the 1901 census (see next post).
-
Here is yet another inconsistency - the family of Darby Dixon and wife Mary Connolly in the 1901 census.
https://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Belmullet/Tallagh/1580354/ (https://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Belmullet/Tallagh/1580354/)
Darby is listed as farmer and blacksmith - so the same chap identified by OP as Kate's potential father.
But note son, Martin, age 8. That is now three Martin Dixons, of approximately the same age, in three families of interest. No Kate/Catherine.
Occurs to me that we might have to consider double counting in census.
-
Here is Darby Dixon's household in 1911:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Belmullet/Tallagh/708259/ (https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Belmullet/Tallagh/708259/)
We have Katie Dixon, aged 22 - hovering close to the birth year of 1886. I cannot a Katie or Catherine of this age to Mary Connell and Darby Dixon.
I'm not sure why Kate could have been booted out of the Darby Dixon household at such a young age - I don't have much a knowledge of rural Ireland at this era so any of my guesses may be wide of the mark.
I've been thinking about the suggestion that Thomas Murphy and Catherine Driscoll's family emigrated en masse - it doesn't feel right that they would leave the youngest son, John. Again, I concede there may be some historical / cultural information I am missing. Could there have been a disaster - en route from Clonakilty - and John was the sole survivor?
-
Here is Darby Dixon's household in 1911:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Belmullet/Tallagh/708259/ (https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Belmullet/Tallagh/708259/)
We have Katie Dixon, aged 22 - hovering close to the birth year of 1886. I cannot a Katie or Catherine of this age to Mary Connell and Darby Dixon.
I thought you mentioned that you had this birth of Kate to Darby Dixon and Mary Connell in 1886
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02599/1959792.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02599/1959792.pdf)
Given that your Kate Dixon is married and living with her husband John Murphy, and daughter Mary in the 1911 census, this latest 1911 census entry showing a Kate Dixon unmarried, with parents Darby and Mary Dixon surely proves that OP's Kate is not the latter Kate Dixon?
-
I'm not sure why Kate could have been booted out of the Darby Dixon household at such a young age - I don't have much a knowledge of rural Ireland at this era so any of my guesses may be wide of the mark.
Why would you assume she was "booted out"? Children visit and stay with relatives all the time. Nothing unusual.
-
Here is Darby Dixon's household in 1911:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Belmullet/Tallagh/708259/ (https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Belmullet/Tallagh/708259/)
We have Katie Dixon, aged 22 - hovering close to the birth year of 1886. I cannot a Katie or Catherine of this age to Mary Connell and Darby Dixon.
I thought you mentioned that you had this birth of Kate to Darby Dixon and Mary Connell in 1886
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02599/1959792.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02599/1959792.pdf)
Given that your Kate Dixon is married and living with her husband John Murphy, and daughter Mary in the 1911 census, this latest 1911 census entry showing a Kate Dixon unmarried, with parents Darby and Mary Dixon surely proves that OP's Kate is not the latter Kate Dixon?
I'm prepared to accept this - even if it does mean I now need to hunt for her parents again.
-
I've been thinking about the suggestion that Thomas Murphy and Catherine Driscoll's family emigrated en masse - it doesn't feel right that they would leave the youngest son, John. Again, I concede there may be some historical / cultural information I am missing. Could there have been a disaster - en route from Clonakilty - and John was the sole survivor?
For the Murphys in Clonakilty, I really think your best bet in terms of understanding what happened to them might be to look at the Valluation Office book records (cancelled rates books). I believe you can view at LDS FHCs
-
Have you names for the other children of Daniel Murphy and Ellen Mahony?
Just looking at this marriage of a Michael Murphy Clashflugh to Honora Nugent in 1864
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1864/11614/8275247.pdf
I think his father is Daniel, it’s difficult to read and I doubt the bride is 98, more likely 18. This could be Honora in 1901.
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Kilnagross/Ballinoroher/1096638/
-
To return to the Murphys of Clonakility area: John Murphy was born in the townland of Ballinoroher in 1876
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1876/03028/2109681.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1876/03028/2109681.pdf)
-
Ballinoroher is in the DED of Kilnagross, and civil parish of Templequinlan.
https://www.townlands.ie/en/cork/east-carbery-east-division/kilnagross/ballinoroher/ (https://www.townlands.ie/en/cork/east-carbery-east-division/kilnagross/ballinoroher/)
-
Griffiths Valuation for Ballinoroher, published 1851, shows a Daniel Murphy in lots no. 8 and 9, with a farm of 39-0-20 A-R-P.
As John had an elder brother named Daniel, and as his father, Thomas, was a farmer in Ballinoroher in 1876, this suggests that Thomas was the son of this particular Daniel Murphy.
-
1901 census has family of Daniel Murphy, farmer in Ballinaroher.
https://www.townlands.ie/en/cork/east-carbery-east-division/kilnagross/ballinoroher/ (https://www.townlands.ie/en/cork/east-carbery-east-division/kilnagross/ballinoroher/)
Likely John's elder brother?
[Subsequent edit - he isn't]
-
1901 census has family o Daniel Murphy, farmer in Ballinaroher.
https://www.townlands.ie/en/cork/east-carbery-east-division/kilnagross/ballinoroher/ (https://www.townlands.ie/en/cork/east-carbery-east-division/kilnagross/ballinoroher/)
Likely John's elder brother?
Not so. This Daniel is a son of Denis Murphy
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1885/10864/5966678.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1885/10864/5966678.pdf)
-
There is also another Daniel Murphy in the 1901 census of Ballinaroher, with siblings Patrick and Annie.
https://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Kilnagross/Ballinoroher/1096638/ (https://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Kilnagross/Ballinoroher/1096638/)
Are their ages consistent with John's siblings? [Family posted earlier in reply No. 38 by Sinann]
However, they are with mother named Hannah, which is not consistent.
Most likely the family of Michael Murphy, son of Daniel, probable brother of Thomas, as pointed out by Sinann
-
Link for baptisms of children of Daniel Murphy and Ellen Maloney or Mahony, in Clonakilty parish.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tjx/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tjx/)
They appear to have had at least 7 children between 1830 and 1844. Michael was the eldest son and eldest child. Note - the two baptisms that appear with address "O C Lane" are children of a different couple.
-
My interpretation of what could have happened to Thomas Murphy and family:
It is apparent that Thomas was a younger son. Michael Murphy, born 1830, was the eldest, and appears to have inherited the farm in Ballinaroher - it is his family that was there in 1901 and 1911. As a younger son and married, it was almost inevitable that either Thomas or his children would have to move out at some point, when the choices would have been to
- Emigrate
- Become a laborer, or
- Enter trade (which might require some capital, as in money).
- Of course, Thomas and Catherine could also have died unregistered.
-
I'm prepared to accept this - even if it does mean I now need to hunt for her parents again.
Note that some relevant parish registers are only available on RootsIreland. As transcripts.
-
Administration index entry for Michael Murphy of Ballinvoher, Co. Cork, died 24 March 1899.
Administrator Hanoria Murphy, the widow.
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014911/005014911_00172.pdf (http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014911/005014911_00172.pdf)
-
One of my hypotheses is that Catherine Driscoll dies soon after giving birth to John in 1876; Thomas remarried and dies in Clonakilty - there is a death record for a Thomas born 1841 in that place.
However, the witness is daughter Bridget Bennett - and when investigating this line it starts to fall apart, because one of Bridget's siblings is born in the same year as John Murphy.
-
Link for pre-Griffith's Valuation Office records for Murphys in Ballinoroher.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tjy/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tjy/)
Of particular interest is the note that Daniel Murphy had a holding in a separate townland, in a different civil parish.
-
Murphy entries in tythe valuation of civil parish of Templequinlan.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tjz/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tjz/)
Note that areas are in Irish acres.
-
Thanks for help and suggestions. The census records for 1901 and 1911 have given me something to think about.
FYI Kate and John are buried in Termoncarragh Cemetery with loads of other Dixons and Lavelles - I hope this will help in my research.
https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2529211/termoncarragh-cemetery (https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2529211/termoncarragh-cemetery)
Do you think it's worth posting on the Mayo forum?
-
Do you think it's worth posting on the Mayo forum?
Couldn't hurt - someone with local knowledge might lurk or turn up.
But if you do, please make sure to mention and link to this existing thread. :D
Otherwise there will be repetition of effort.
-
The census records for 1901 and 1911 have given me something to think about.
I have to say that taken as a whole the records are unusually confusing, and point different ways!
-
I have a partial conclusion to the this thread - the Mayo part:
There is a record of a birth of Catherine Dixon in 1886; her parents are John Dixon and Bridget Collins:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02610/1963610.pdf
(https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02610/1963610.pdf)
I stopped looking for Kate Dixon on seeing her referred to as Catherine on the census record of 1911 - the Cork husband, and infant Mary were too strong to ignore - and her year of birth matches the death record.
I found this search really difficult - and it nearly put me off finding ancestors in Ireland: the names and dates were similar, with slight variations - with so many potential candidates. Fortunately there are a lot of searchable records for free.
A post-script to this search: my initial candidate for Kate's father - Darby Dixon - was probably her uncle or first cousin once-removed; John and Bridget had a son called Darby Dixon; John Dixon's father is another Darby Dixon (d. 1875), who in turn was the son of another Darby Dixon (d. 1896). I am under the impression that this elder Darby Dixon is responsible for single-handedly populating Belmullet with Dixons - many of who were called Darby - for at least fifty years after his death.
-
I have a partial conclusion to the this thread - the Mayo part:
I stopped looking for Kate Dixon on seeing her referred to as Catherine on the census record of 1911 - the Cork husband, and infant Mary were too strong to ignore - and her year of birth matches the death record.
Kate is just a nickname. Catherine is the "primary" name, and should always be checked in addition to Kate.
Just to increase your joy, Darby is a nickname for Diarmaid/Dermot and is often anglicized as Jeremiah. They should be considered interchangeable also.
-
I think I have a full conclusion to this thread.
I'll write my methods so that others can either double-check, and/or learn from my difficulties.
My objective was to find the names, dates of birth, and dates of death of my maternal grandfather's grandparents (my 2nd great-grandparents).
I started with my maternal grandfather's parents. Details was sparse, due to estrangement of the grandfather and his parents - but I had their names, dates of death, and location of birth for the great-grandfather.
Unfortunately, I could not find the marriage records of my great-parents - which I now know to be 1910 - so there was always going to be some guesswork involved.
I got the date of birth for the great-grandmother - based on her death record - however, I identified the wrong individual (see my previous post). I eventually found the correct person and got the names of the maternal set of 2nd great-grandparents (I haven't got their dates yet, but that's another story).
I traced the paternal set of 2nd great-grandparents to Clonakilty, based on references from distant cousins; I got their names from a well-informed tree on ancestry. The great-grandfather's birth record connects them, at this location, and I found a number of other children born to this couple - then the trail went cold - as outlined in my original post.
I returned to civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie in the hope that I could find something I had missed - and I found it: four additional children. They were not transcribed by parent name, and I found them by opening each birth record for Murphy in Clonakilty between 1880 and 1900.
Now I had a list of children - in date order - with the youngest having a relatively uncommon name: Julia. I entered these names into the 1901 census and found a household in Kilmaloda, Clonakilty - less than 10km from their last known location (Ballinrougher):
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Kilmaloda/Ahaliskey/1097602/
(https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Kilmaloda/Ahaliskey/1097602/)
The 1911 census followed:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Kilmaloda_West/Ahalisky/381879/
(https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Kilmaloda_West/Ahalisky/381879/)
I'm not sure why John is listed, given that I know he was in Belmullet in 1911 :-\
Finally, I got their death records, matching the Ahalisky location, and the informant names as their children:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1908/05475/4532823.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1908/05475/4532823.pdf) I previously thought Ellen had died early - but that was another Ellen Murphy
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1926/04992/4361740.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1926/04992/4361740.pdf)
I think the moral of the story is: don't rely on digital transcripts as 100% accurate, and be prepared to sift through if the records are available as scans.