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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Armagh => Topic started by: Murphy616 on Friday 27 December 24 16:27 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone,
First post here! I'm reaching out to this wonderful community in hopes of uncovering some family history. I'm trying to find out more about a farm that was supposedly owned by my great grandad, Francis Murphy, in Armagh, Ireland.
Unfortunately, my grandma, who had most of the knowledge about our family history, has passed away. However, I recently spoke with my auntie who still remembers a few details. From what I gather, my great grandad, Francis, and his wife, Mary Ann, had a farm that was supposedly located near an abbatoir. Not ideal but thats literally all i know!
When I do some research, I only seem to find one farm listed in Armagh, which makes me think it might not be the right one. If anyone has any information or leads about farms in the area that might have been owned by the Murphys, I would greatly appreciate your help. I know this is a long shot, but any insight would mean the world to me!
Thanks
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I'm not sure where (website) you have been looking for the property or what time frame or where you believe the property may have been..
The go to place to search for property in the mid 1800s (1850 on) is Griffiths Valuation
https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch
Doing a search I can see 18 entries for a Francis Murphy c1860. I have not looked wider than that ie at names such as Frank etc. The maps for such properties are detailed and I am sure that if a Murphy related to you had property near an abbatoir the property and the abbatoir would be shown.
With more detail such as names and dates we can look further eg doB/death of Francis and Mary Ann and Mary Ann's maiden surname.
And a big welcome to Rootschat!
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Thanks very much for your reply!
It all gets a bit confusing because it sounds as though my great grandad possibly purchased the farm after some time in America. The family then left for Scotland where my grandad was born. But he later returned to the farm as a teenager. So they must have still owned it, or possibly part owned.
For time periods and useful information, my great grandad Francis was born around 1874. His father was Patrick Murphy.
Francis married my great grandmother Mary Ann Smyth.
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Murphy is the most common surname in Ireland and Francis doesn't help that much (try a search on http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/ for Francis & Frank Murphy 1901 or 1911 specifying Co Armagh). Tick Show all information & 100 results per page so can see the occupations & Farmers/Farm labourers.
An abbatoir is nicer sounding term for a slaughterhouse and there will have been many for the cattle pigs etc supplying the locals butchers in the towns and villages. You need to work back from the marriage and birth of their son or daughter.
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OP hasn't said anything about dates - his great-grandfather could have been farming in the mid 1800s, or well into 1900s. It matters!
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Thanks everyone anyway. Apologies I don't have a huge amount of information you see. This is almost a last resort as most of the information went when my my grandma passed away. I never even met my grandad. So a lot of this info comes from my eldest Auntie who unfortunately doesn't have many records!
But on Find my past I found that Francis was born in 1874. So would assume the farm came closer to the early 1900s. Again this is a guess. And makes it more complicated as I know they were in Scotland by 1915.
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Francis was born where in 1874?
I can’t see a marriage for a Francis Murphy and Mary Anne Smyth in Ireland.
You should be able to find his birth certificate here
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
Just sign in and prove you’re not a robot.
If we can’t find where the family lived there is no chance of finding the farm. Lots of tenants got the chance to buy their farms in the early 1900s after the land war, this maybe the case with your family.
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Thanks everyone anyway. Apologies I don't have a huge amount of information you see. This is almost a last resort as most of the information went when my my grandma passed away. I never even met my grandad. So a lot of this info comes from my eldest Auntie who unfortunately doesn't have many records!
But on Find my past I found that Francis was born in 1874. So would assume the farm came closer to the early 1900s. Again this is a guess. And makes it more complicated as I know they were in Scotland by 1915.
Scotlands People
There is s birth for Andrew Murphy, 1915, Shettleston with mother’s surname, Smyth.
Is that your family?
Where did Francis die? Do you have his death certificate?
Marriage
1898 Cambuslang
Francis Murphy and Mary Ann Smyth
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Seems to me that the way to proceed would be for OP to find the marriage registration for Francis plus wife. That will give some key information - name of father, his occupation, and perhaps an age for Francis.
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That’s what i was thinking.
If Francis died in Scotland, there would be more information on the death certificate too re his parents, i think.
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Thanks everyone anyway. Apologies I don't have a huge amount of information you see. This is almost a last resort as most of the information went when my my grandma passed away. I never even met my grandad. So a lot of this info comes from my eldest Auntie who unfortunately doesn't have many records!
But on Find my past I found that Francis was born in 1874. So would assume the farm came closer to the early 1900s. Again this is a guess. And makes it more complicated as I know they were in Scotland by 1915.
Scotlands People
There is s birth for Andrew Murphy, 1915, Shettleston with mother’s surname, Smyth.
Is that your family?
Where did Francis die? Do you have his death certificate?
Marriage
1898 Cambuslang
Francis Murphy and Mary Ann Smyth
Yes this is definitely my family! Francis died in Scotland in about 1933 I believe. His father was Patrick Murphy.
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Yes this is definitely my family! Francis died in Scotland in about 1933 I believe. His father was Patrick Murphy.
So I take it they are not going to be in Ireland in the 1901 or 1911 census?
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The is a birth for a Francis Murphy in Newry SRD in 1872. Father Patrick, a laborer.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1872/03227/2183111.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1872/03227/2183111.pdf)
What was Patrick's occupation on his son's marriage registration?
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Scottish marriage certificates record mothers’ names as well as fathers. They also record whether those parents were alive or dead at that date. If dead, it will normally say “dcd” after their name and if alive that will be absent. (Scottish authorities were pretty meticulous about that detail).
So, as Wexflyer says, can you tell us Francis’s father’s name and occupation. Likewise his mother’s, plus whether they were alive or dead in 1898?
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On the birth registration of earlier children of the same couple (twins Andrew & Laurence), Patrick is described as a farmer.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1864/03620/2336410.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1864/03620/2336410.pdf)
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Link for location of Ballinliss townland
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/orior-upper/killevy-upper-orior-portion/killevy/ballinliss/ (https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/orior-upper/killevy-upper-orior-portion/killevy/ballinliss/)
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There is a Patrick Murphy in Ballinliss in the 1901 census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Killeavy/Ballinliss/1034068/ (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Killeavy/Ballinliss/1034068/)
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Griffith's Valuation, published 1864, shows Patrick Murphy with a small 7 acre farm in Ballinliss.
There was also a butcher in the townland. Whether that qualifies as an abattoir, or not, I know not.
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This is all very positive thanks so much! I will do some checking over all this info when I get some time today hopefully. You're all very helpful thanks again ☺️
Not to confuse things but Francis went to America at some point but I've no idea on the year of if it was from Ireland or Scotland. But would assume it may be possible to find travel documents from around the period.
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On the birth registration of an earlier child of the same couple (Andrew), Patrick is described as a farmer.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1864/03620/2336410.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1864/03620/2336410.pdf)
Great finds.
It looks as though Andrew was a twin. There was also a child, Laurence born at the same timr but record not marked as such.
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Hmm I don't believe Andrew was a twin. He was born later on than his brother's and also had a sister. But no name of Laurence rings a bell.
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Hmm I don't believe Andrew was a twin. He was born later on than his brother's and also had a sister. But no name of Laurence rings a bell.
Perhaps because Laurence died in 1890?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1890/06092/4738525.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1890/06092/4738525.pdf)
I see 7 children for Patrick and Ann/Alice (her name varies). Could be more before start of registration in 1864.
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I was thinking it might be interesting for your records which initially seemed scant indeed.
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I was thinking it might be interesting for your records which initially seemed scant indeed.
It's all really useful thank you! I'll definitely reference them all with my auntie when I get the chance. Out of the huge family we have sadly it's only me and her that seem to be doing any investigation!
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When was Francis supposed to have owned the farm - before or after his marriage?
Did he remain in Scotland?
If so, do you have his death certificate to confirm that the records here are the right family?
As has been pointed out, Scottish records would contain information re his parents.
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Death of Alice Murphy 1897
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1897/05868/4663631.pdf
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At the moment this Irish research is largely guesswork because we don’t have both Francis’s parents names. They are easily obtained from his 1898 marriage certificate on Scotlandspeople for about £1.60, as I explained previously. Provide us with that information and we’ll try and find the family for you in Ireland.
My money now is on a different family from the Ballinliss family we have been looking at. There’s another in Ballynarea, with a Francis that fits. Mother was Ann Heaney. But you’ll need to get his correct parents names for us to know if that is right.
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Ann Heaney fits what I have found for Francis' mother. And his father was a Patrick Murphy.
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Ann Heaney fits what I have found for Francis' mother. And his father was a Patrick Murphy.
Well then, in my opinion this may be the right Francis Murphy birth. Mother Ann Heaney:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1876/03061/2121932.pdf
1876 in Ballynarea, In Co Armagh.
Likely siblings (There may well have been more. Parents married in 1865).
Teresa 5.6.1873
Michael 24.6.74
Patrick 11.1.1879
Bridget 7.4.1883
Household in 1901:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Lisletrim/Ballinarea/1023482/
1911:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Lisleitrim/Ballynarea/334438/
Ann Murphy’s death in 1898:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1898/05815/4646503.pdf
Patrick Murphy & Ann Heaney’s marriage in Cullyhanna chapel in 1865:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1865/11587/8264157.pdf
Just a gentle hint. You will struggle to build up an accurate tree if you are not prepared to make the odd purchase to view/obtain certificates to verify information. It is not all on-line free.
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Ann Heaney fits what I have found for Francis' mother. And his father was a Patrick Murphy.
If you have found this, it would have helped if you posted.
Credits for Scotlands People are very reasonably priced and getting the relevant certificates would hopefully solve all the speculation.
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As Heywood points out, you have rather wasted our time by not providing all the clues, and by not getting the parents names from the Scottish marriage certificate.
The Valuation revision records show that in 1908 Patrick Murphy’s farm was plot 7 in Ballynarea and that it was 2 acres. In 1921 the occupant changed to Patrick Sheridan. I found Patrick Murphy’s death in 1917. Informant was his daughter Mary A. Sheridan. So it looks as though Mary married a Sheridan and the farm passed to that family after Patrick’s death.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1917/05226/4446499.pdf
Mary’s marriage to Edward Sheridan in 1914:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1914/09837/5571743.pdf
The farm today is along a lane from the modern Mullaghduff Rd. From a satellite image it looks to be a large farm or industrial business. Whether any of the buildings from 100 years ago still survive I wouldn’t like to say. Nor do I know who lives there today.
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Scotlands People death - is this where you got his mother’s name from?
Francis Murphy 56 yrs mmn Hainy 1933 Camlachie
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As Heywood points out, you have rather wasted our time by not providing all the clues, and by not getting the parents names from the Scottish marriage certificate.
The Valuation revision records show that in 1908 Patrick Murphy’s farm was plot 7 in Ballynarea and that it was 2 acres. In 1921 the occupant changed to Patrick Sheridan. I found Patrick Murphy’s death in 1917. Informant was his daughter Mary A. Sheridan. So it looks as though Mary married a Sheridan and the farm passed to that family after Patrick’s death.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1917/05226/4446499.pdf
Mary’s marriage to Edward Sheridan in 1914:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1914/09837/5571743.pdf
The farm today is along a lane from the modern Mullaghduff Rd. From a satellite image it looks to be a large farm or industrial business. Whether any of the buildings from 100 years ago still survive I wouldn’t like to say. Nor do I know who lives there today.
This is amazing wow thank you so much. I never intended to waste anyone's time and I'm incredibly grateful for this information!
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It is just best to provide what you know or even suspect so it can be checked out, that’s all.
There are some public trees with no information about Francis but here is Michael Murphy’s marriage.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1907/10104/5676367.pdf
Note his residence - Cambuslang. He had several daughters in Scotland, one dying as recently as 2004.
I hope you will be able to confirm all this information when you have checked it all out.
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Thanks again to everyone who helped me on this.
I have been at my aunty's today and exhausted all possible avenues that we currently have of information.
3 main things I would like to find : Patrick's birth details and then on the other side, Mary Anne Murphy's burial in Scotland. She died in abt1948 and also her parents.
Or any guidance on where to look. I have Ancestry, but I'm afraid I can't find anything concrete. A lot of people seem to have Mary Anne Smyth/Murphy dying in 1938 in Ireland but I know this isn't true as my auntie remembers her from when she was about 8 or 9 and dying in the 40s.
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You say Mary Anne Murphy died abt 1948 - have you searched for a likely death in Scotlands People?
That would give her parents but the marriage would also. Did you purchase that?
Did the family live in Govan?
With regards to Patrick, you have his father as Michael so that may help. As he married in a Catholic church, hopefully you might find baptismal records.
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You say Mary Anne Murphy died abt 1948 - have you searched for a likely death in Scotlands People?
That would give her parents but the marriage would also. Did you purchase that?
Did the family live in Govan?
Hi there I've been using Ancestry at the moment and looking at Scottish burials..but no matter what information I put in I can't seem to find the correct Mary Anne Murphy (maiden name Smyth)
With regards to Patrick, you have his father as Michael so that may help. As he married in a Catholic church, hopefully you might find baptismal records.
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You need to search here
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
You register and can purchase the relevant documents through credits.
I posted these records earlier
Death
Francis Murphy 56 yrs mmn Hainy 1933 Camlachie
Marriage
1898 Cambuslang
Francis Murphy and Mary Ann Smyth
You can search for a death for Mary Ann. I asked earlier, did they live in Govan at the time of her death?
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Unfortunately I don't know the exact location. My Auntie just thinks it was Glasgow but we can't be 100%. Thank you for the link I'll see what I can find
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In reply #33, i mentioned Michael Murphy of Cambuslang and gave you his Irish marriage.
Here is a birth for a Michael with parents Patrick and Ann Haney. Patrick is a farm labourer at this time in 1874
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1874/03153/2156344.pdf
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The Valuation revision records show that in 1908 Patrick Murphy’s farm was plot 7 in Ballynarea and that it was 2 acres. In 1921 the occupant changed to Patrick Sheridan. I found Patrick Murphy’s death in 1917. Informant was his daughter Mary A. Sheridan. So it looks as though Mary married a Sheridan and the farm passed to that family after Patrick’s death.
Valuation revision books (you can view on Ancestry) show:
Patrick Murphy , 1885 - 1897 and 1908 - Plots 7a and 7b
Margaret Murphy, 1873 - 7a and 7b - and earlier I think.
Elwyn is more knowledgeable on this.
**note the Sheridans around too.
This may be the death of Margaret Murphy
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1874/020674/7254035.pdf
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Thanks for this. Do you have Margaret down as Patrick's wife? I've not come across a Margaret around that time you see
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No.
I was taking Elwyn’s finds back where he identifies the Murphy plot in the valuation revision books. - You can view them on Ancestry.
I am speculating that Margaret Murphy may have been Patrick’s mother and wife of Michael Murphy, Patrick’s father.
However, there is nothing yet to prove that.
It may well be that Anne Murphy, the informant at Margaret’s death is Anne Haney Murphy.