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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Armagh => Topic started by: ddonaghy on Wednesday 05 February 25 15:05 GMT (UK)
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The document I recently found (see link) contains highly valuable and unique info on my mid-nineteenth century ancestors, but also has me scratching my head in several regards.
https://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/reels/c19/007246685/007246685_01226.pdf
1. The application is dated 9 March 1920, but my great-aunt Catherine (Donaghy) Lappin died five years earlier in 1915. Could Old Age Pensions be applied for by descendants of those who had passed???
2. I can’t make any sense of the address on the application: ℅ Mr. T.M. Coffey, Cookstown (25 miles from Catherine’s home in Mullavilly)
3. How much credence should I give the data included in the application? For example, two of the family members listed, Teresa and James, can’t be corroborated by any other sources. This is also the only source that’s ever mentioned the townland of Ballywilly in association with the Donaghy family, based firmly in Mullavilly since the 1840’s.
4. Do any of the other notations on the application have any meaning for those familiar with Census Search Forms?
Thanks once again for taking the time to help!
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Mr. Coffey is simply the contact address, but the most important part of the for is the note after 'Return searched by' heading - i.e. 'Not Found', this means that no record was found using the information provided, so something was not accurate, e.g. the timeframe, names or location
For comparison see the next form (https://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/reels/c19/007246685/007246685_01227.pdf) - initial search also Ballywilly but corrected after a retry, certified, copied, returned to file and copy despatched to applicant
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Thanks for your quick reply!
Any thoughts on the fact that Catherine had died five years before the application was made?
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Maybe a different Catherine ?
Pretty sure old age pension was not transferable and not allowed to pass on to a descendant or beneficiaries.
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Pension eligibility age was 70 so this 1920 applicant was probably born in 1850. Your state pension stopped with your death (as it still does today), so if your ancestor died in 1915 then this applicant is a different lady.
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I hear you both, but herein lies the mystery. I have total confidence in the identity of the Catherine Donaghy named on the application because it contains the names of both her parents: Thomas Donaghy and Ann (Donnelly) Donaghy. In the same vein, I have no doubt that this same Catherine Donaghy (married name Dale) died in 1915. Still can’t make any sense of it. Appreciate your comments.
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I'm a bit confused. Your initial post called her "Catherine (Donaghy) Lappin" which I took to mean her maiden name was Donaghy (as in the pension claim) and Lappin her married surname.
In your last post you called her Catherine Donaghy (married name Dale) who died in 1915.
There's one Catherine Dale death in 1915- widow of a Patrick Dale, schoolmaster- in Tamnavelton townland-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1915/05283/4467755.pdf
In the 1911 census there's one Catherine Dale in Co. Armagh- in Tamnavelton townland which is near Portadown- with husband a Patrick Dale, schoolmaster.
Note: Census website changing to new format and unable to post link at the moment.
Marriage of Patrick Dale, national teacher, to widow Catherine Cullen formerly Donaghy-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1881/11015/8027541.pdf
Residence for both listed as living in Mullavilly.
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Catherine's first marriage to Patrick Cullen lists her residence as Mullavilly-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1868/11474/8217318.pdf
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/orior-lower/kilmore-lower-orior-portion/mullahead-rural/mullavilly/
So, the 1911 census, 1915 death and both marriages seem to relate to the same Catherine.
As already stated, pension applicant had to be alive to claim a pension. However the other puzzling thing is the Cookstown contact address. It would have been more likely if a person wanted to get delivery of a letter that the address they would give would be somewhere in the area so that they would be able to collect said post (and possibly had it read to them and/or have a reply written).
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Apologies for adding to the confusion!
In my inital post I meant to write Catherine (Donaghy) Dale, not Lappin, which was the married name of Catherine's sister Sarah.
The Tamnaghvelton townland is adjacent to Mullavilly.
I'm just now wondering if one of my other ancestors, Catherine Donaghy (1895-1969), a lifelong resident of Mullavilly, might have been *posing* as her deceased aunt Catherine in 1920 when the application was made. Somebody had to have asked for the Census Search. Thoughts?
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Thanks for clearing up my confusion.
There's a Thomas Coffey in Cookstown in 1911 (age 25, a spirit merchant)- could this be the contact on the application?
Possibly Thomas' birth (although age is out)-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1874/03153/2156386.pdf
Coffey Thomas Martin of Cookstown county Tyrone spirit merchant died 18 April 1923 Probate Belfast 3 September to Robert Malone spirit merchant and James Mullan farmer. Effects £986 18s. 2d.
Thought Thomas might have been a relative but nothing jumping out at me here.
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I too found Thomas Coffey in the 1911 Census but didn't see any connection whatsoever to anybody in the Donaghy family. My first thought when I saw him in the address was that he might have been a lawyer, until I saw his profession in the census, spirit merchant.
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Apologies for adding to the confusion!
I....... Somebody had to have asked for the Census Search. Thoughts?
When applying for OAP it seems it was routine to ask for a check of the census. In fact these applcations can often be a valuable proxy for census returns that have been lost or not available over time. In the absence of civil B & M for many of these elderly folk the census would have provided a good source of govt information.
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When was Catherine’s sister Sarah born?
There is no child Sarah on the form.
It’s also a bit odd that Dale isn’t on it anyway either. It’s hard to tell from random search results if female applicants had married or not as most have the same surname as their fathers but some have two surnames.
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Catherine married twice. First to Patrick Cullen in 1868.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/5994863005974?b=https%3A%2F%2Fcivilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie%2Fchurchrecords%2Fcivil-perform-search.jsp%3Fnamefm%3Dcatherine%26namel%3Ddonaghy%26location%3D%26yyfrom%3D1868%26yyto%3D1868%26type%3DM%26submit%3DSearch
The widowed Catherine Cullen then married for a second time to Patrick Dale in 1881.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/5e09a72705285?b=https%3A%2F%2Fcivilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie%2Fchurchrecords%2Fcivil-perform-search.jsp%3Fnamefm%3Dcatherine%26namel%3Dcullen%26location%3D%26yyfrom%3D1881%26yyto%3D1881%26type%3DM%26submit%3DSearch
Couldn’t find a baptismal record for Catherine’s sister Sarah Donaghy, but she married in 1874.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/e52f972830332?b=https%3A%2F%2Fcivilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie%2Fchurchrecords%2Fcivil-perform-search.jsp%3Fnamefm%3Dsarah%26namel%3Ddonaghy%26location%3DBanbridge%26yyfrom%3D1870%26yyto%3D1885%26type%3DM%26submit%3DSearch
I realized Sarah wasn’t included on the Search Census Form, but assumed it was because she was born sometime after 1851.
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Thanks to all of you for sticking with me on this!
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The address doesn’t make sense.
Ballyvally is in the parish of Loughgilly not Kilmore.
Either there was two couples Thomas and Ann with a daughter Catherine.
Or You have the wrong parents for your Catherine.
Or Catherine didn’t die in 1915
But if you are sure of her parents and death than it does look like someone was trying to cheat and they got the name of the townland incorrect.
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The address doesn’t make sense.
Ballyvally is in the parish of Loughgilly not Kilmore.
You are misreading the townland address. As OP stated, it is Ballywilly.
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-west/kilmore-oneilland-west-portion/kilmore/ballywilly/ (https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-west/kilmore-oneilland-west-portion/kilmore/ballywilly/)
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3. This is also the only source that’s ever mentioned the townland of Ballywilly in association with the Donaghy family, based firmly in Mullavilly since the 1840’s.
Not so. Thomas Donaghy was baptized 27/6/1847, parish of Kilmore, address Ballywilly.
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I took a look at Griffith's Valuation for Ballywilly (1864) and Mullavilly (1863)
No Donaghy in Ballywilly, but in Mullavilly there was a Thomas Donahy equally sharing a 7-3-0 A-R-P farm with a Richard Lynes.
In my experience, such shared farms invariably indicate a family relationship.
Their landlord was the Count de Salis.
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Two other members of the family baptized in Kilmore parish
Mary-Ann, 19/5/1845, and
Elizabeth, 18/11/1848.
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A sponsor on one of the baptisms is Catherine Donaghy. [Should always check sponsors!]
Could she be the extra Catherine, and the two confused?
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Marriage of Mary Anne Donaghy, 1873
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1873/11276/8136074.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1873/11276/8136074.pdf)