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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Vimeira on Tuesday 25 March 25 19:13 GMT (UK)
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I'm researching a Colonial Civil Servant in his 40s who I suspect spent WWI doing admin in Africa but titled himself Captain after the war. Would men like this have been admitted to the army in 1914 and given honorary titles? I don't find him listed as a soldier. Thanks!
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I'm not a military expert, but I believe if he was properly conscripted into the army proper he'd have had a rank which he'd retain
An alternative, given his age and location - might he have served in the Boer War and still use his rank from that time?
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Thanks - I'd considered that but he was still called "Mr" in 1907 and "Esq." in 1910. I read on Wikipedia that T E Lawrence was a Lieutenant even though he was doing a desk job (until he insisted on leaving it). I don't know if you could enlist in Africa.
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It would not have been at all unusual for a colonial civil servant to have been commissioned during the war, but then perhaps because of his skill-set, be assigned desk job. He probably held the rank of Lieutenant during hostilities and was then allowed to use the honorary rank of captain after being demobbed. That was standard practice until after the Second World War.
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Perhaps he was commissioned as a part time officer in a local volunteer corps, wherever he was in Africa.
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Thank you - those solutions would work. I'd mostly only read about men fighting in France and their ranks.
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I don't understand the reference to desk job and what it would have to with ranks and decorations. While 'an army marches on its stomach' all sorts of experienced people in civilian life were required to order and obtain the food, petrol, ammo needed for the military
Many armies have a group called the ASC and much of the work, in the early stages would have been done by men experienced in desk jobs in civvy street.
'The Army Service Corps (ASC), in the context of the New Zealand army, was the supply and transport branch, providing essential services like food, equipment, and ammunition to the troops, and also assisting in evacuating the wounded'.
(wiki)
It would not have been at all unusual for a colonial civil servant to have been commissioned during the war, but then perhaps because of his skill-set, be assigned desk job
I was discussing this with a senior military person I worked with and he said most military would have frowned on 'conscripting bright young people' especially in the early stages when there was a need for ASC duties and Intel. Later these would have been backed up by women.
Some ranks were entitled to retain their rank after hostilities cease. None of my uncles did.
Also in some areas there was an active undercurrent against men who were perceived, mostly incorrectly, of 'not fighting' during and after the war/s.
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Yes, I have a relative who was in the RAOC. My subject had been involved in getting the native population to grow crops before WWI and was 46 when the war started. So my guess was that he stayed where he knew the area and did something there as I can't find any records. I assume non-combatants didn’t get the medals and pensions that make them easy to find on Ancestry?
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Have you searched the LONDON GAZETTE which usually has information regarding officers and frommemory there's a note against each member of the forces that showed their parents paid for the "officer" rank
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Thanks, I'll try that.
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Try looking in the Army List. There are some editions online and copies on the shelves in some big libraries, notably at the National Archives in Kew and the Society of Genealogists. The Army List only deals with officers, not Other Ranks. The Gazette can be really helpful but its search engine seems to be a bit hit and miss.
Where in Africa? At the outbreak of war, many settlers in British East Africa (which became Kenya) joined together to form ad hoc regiments which were later regularised. The campaign is not well known, being a bit of a side show to the Western Front, and has its own fascination. Try Tip and Run by Edward Paice.
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Thanks, I'll try that too. He was in Southern Nigeria which had hitherto been a bit turbulent. (Benin Affair, 1906)
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there's a note against each member of the forces that showed their parents paid for the "officer" rank
The purchase of commissions was discontinued in 1871.
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May we know his name?
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His name was C. W. Todd (Charles William). Not the very active Gloucestershire Captain with the same name. There is also a man of the same name from the West Yorkshire TFR, 2nd Lieut, temp. Capt., August 1916 (Gazette).
But I apologise - he didn’t stay in Nigeria. Searching the British Newspaper Archive, I’ve found him farming in Staffordshire from Sept. 1914 to June 1915, called “Mr.” He was a wealthy man - I’ve no idea about the West Yorks TFR and whether he might have joined that. He was born in Lancashire! He was back in Staffordshire by 1918.
Does anyone know about TFRs? Were they very locally based?
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Territorial Force Reserve, I think.
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I think he married Harriet Stacey nee Kadwill in Pancras in 1915. Confusingly she is recorded as Violet on the 1921 census and the 1939 Register (with "Harriet" added later).
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Oh yes, well spotted. I assumed Violet had died. There was a stillbirth in 1918. Now, I have to find out about Harriet and if she's the reason for the Yorkshire regiment!
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Harriet's from Romford./Ilford area Her first marriage doesn't appear to have lasted a month before Mr Stacey left her - he was a soldier and was later in Cairo and elsewhere. She divorced him - looks like the decree nisi came through and she and Mr Todd married almost immediately
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Thanks - yes, I saw about the divorce (shocking in those days) but didn't know her first husband was a soldier. I've traced pretty well the whole of Capt. Todd's life now except what role he played in the war and if he was indeed linked to a Yorkshire regiment. He gave up farming and seemed to spend the rest of his life playing golf!
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He may well have joined his local regiment the West Yorkshires but never served abroad. Rather grandiose to style oneself a Captain based on that but not uncommon for the golf club!
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That’s possible, but I can’t find a connection to West Yorkshire. He’s included on a local plaque of those from a small hamlet who served in WWI and he’s the only one we can’t find any war info on. (He lived in a big house near the hamlet for about 10 years.)
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Whereabouts is the small hamlet please?
So are you saying that he actually spent the war in England and not West Africa?
Have you found and requested his military file?
Also if he was 46 at the beginning of the war that is old for active service ie immediately going off to France though here in NZ at the start of the war older men holding rank ie on the reserve at the start of the war were assigned duties relating to their expertise eg admin tasks relating to call-ups etc, gunnery instructors etc. Later on these older men did go overseas to back up younger ones who were administrators or instructors and who were then released to fight in trenches etc.
I am not sure why you feel someone who was in the military especially if this started from service in the territorials ie before any war was declared, but not on service on the battlefields was not entitled to or receiving medals. That is not how it works.....at the very least if he was serving anywhere in the military in WW1 he would have an entitlement to the medals that all who served, no matter what capacity, got.
There is a huge number of people supporting the effort that goes to ensuring boots are on the ground in actual battles. I guess the numbers and set-up of the military would show those figures.
Another way of illustrating this is to look capacity in the NZ health sector, currently, it is estimated that every Dr in our public health system is backed up/needs the support of between 7 to 8 people in order to carry out their role. In the UK I am sure there will be similar figures.
To support thousands of men overseas fighting they would need thousands of people in back-up back home.
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Hi again Shanreagh, yes I know large numbers of non-fighting people are needed to support an army and I am not saying they don’t deserve medals. However with all the other men commemorated on the WWI plaques, they were easily traced by their WWI medal records and I can’t find this man by that means. He was in Staffordshire in June 1915 giving wounded soldiers at the Infirmary rides in his car (newspaper report), having married in London earlier in the year. I assume he served directly in some way after that to get his rank of Captain but I can't find him. It's OK, we'll just leave that part of his story blank.
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Captain C W Todd of the West Yorkshire Regiment was living at Moreton Park, Newport, Shropshire in 1918.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1262/images/30850_A001562-01414
Mrs Todd was advertising for maids in January 1919 https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/e0d86031-2597-42ab-a1d3-443657a54460
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1916 Staffordshire Directory (Moreton lies on the border with Shopshire): Under Moreton, Chas Wm Todd, farmer, Moreton Park.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/2583/records/1769204
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Oh, well found Shaun! Thank you - that solves the riddle! We knew about the maids - and he and his wife advertised for places for them and the gardener when they moved into Brocton Golf Club a few years later. He was actually on the edges of the wealthy Todd-Pilkington families (steel and tiles). Goodness knows why Yorkshire ...
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Thanks again for the directory link. That's the one. Still don't know what he actually did in the West Yorkshire Regiment, but you've managed to identify him.
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A further question - I think his medal card at https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1262/images/30850_A001562-01414 shows that he got a badge, not a medal. The ref no given is 9/14/2835 - does this tell us anything more? Thanks.
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I suspect it was a silver war badge for early discharge. https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/silver-war-badge-and-kings-certificate-of-discharge
Bearing in mind he was in UK for the war and his age, then it is likely due to becoming over age, illness or general ill health rather than any military action.
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Thanks, that would make sense since he was (back) in Staffordshire in 1918. He was reportedly in a "Territorial Force Reserve" for the West Yorks Regiment. I'm not sure what they actually did, and where.
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This is the best explanation: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/british-army-reserves-and-reservists/the-territorial-force-reserve/
In simple terms he was enlisted in the Territorial Reserve rather than the Territorial Force proper. So he was not liable to be sent overseas but might be called up to the TF if needed. Otherwise he remained a civilian. As was 46 in 1914 he was unlikely to be mobilised for the TF especially as he was a junior officer despite his advanced age.
Whilst he held a commission I think it rather presumptuous be be using the title of Captain after the war as he did not actually serve in the Regular, the Terrritorial Force or even a war raised battalion. However he may have had pre-war service in the TF which enabled him to enlist in the TFR.
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Some TFR references for him ( at one point in 1916 he was a temporary major):
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/6b08d413-8ed8-486b-b195-15d73b4ffac4
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/24dc3390-882d-4128-a79c-c4afa4e9d4b6
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/24dc3390-882d-4128-a79c-c4afa4e9d4b6
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Granted the honorary rank of Captain from 20 January 1918
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30567/supplement/3089
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Thanks Alan. Yes, the Captain title did draw my attention to him as it was unusual round here (not many officers). He attended Sedbergh public school and Haileybury Imperial Service College (Herts), so there may have been some sort of cadet force there, more likely Sedbergh; otherwise he was mostly in Nigeria.
Thanks Shaun, the fact they are Yorkshire newspapers suggests he may have been in Yorkshire 1916-18. And yes an honorary Captain.
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Per the Sedbergh School register he was a cattle farmer in Queensland from 1887 before going to Nigeria in 1905.
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There are some mentions in Queensland newspapers of Charles William Todd, manager of Torilla Station, Yaamba, for several years.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/search/category/newspapers?keyword=%22charles%20william%20todd%22&l-state=Queensland
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Thanks Alan. Yes, the Captain title did draw my attention to him as it was unusual round here (not many officers). He attended Sedbergh public school and Haileybury Imperial Service College (Herts), so there may have been some sort of cadet force there, more likely Sedbergh; otherwise he was mostly in Nigeria.
Thanks Shaun, the fact they are Yorkshire newspapers suggests he may have been in Yorkshire 1916-18. And yes an honorary Captain.
Haileybury did not have a cadet corps until 1908 when they founded their Officer Training Corps.
Sedburgh founded their Rifle Training Corps (OTC from 1908) in 1901.
Alan
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Blimey, an Australian cattle farmer too! Well found! I hope he wasn’t also the steamship captain. How did you find him going to Nigeria in 1905, Shaun?
Thanks Alan, not a cadet force then.
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The school cadet movement didn't really get going until 1908 when the Junior Division of the Officer Training Corps was established and most public school converted their cadet corps into OTCs or set up an OTC if they did not have cadets.
School Cadet Corps really did not get going until the Boer War period although a few of the larger and most prestigious schools had then in the 1890s. Eton prides itself that their cadet corps was founded first in 1860.
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Answering my own question about 1905 to Nigeria, it's outside the snippet but I can see it on the Google preview.
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Thanks Alan, useful information.
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Just for completeness:
An early Sedbergh register entry (circa 1895), confirming his address in Queensland:
https://archive.org/details/b21778516/page/284/mode/2up?q=todd
Haileybury register entry:
https://archive.org/details/haileyburyregis00collgoog/page/n238/mode/2up?q=todd
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From the 1930 edition of the Sedbergh Register:
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Many thanks for all that, Shaun. A varied life!
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I have scoured the 1916 Army list of all officers and he is not in there at all let alone the West Yorks pages.
https://archive.org/details/monthly-army-list-1916-dec/page/235/mode/2up?q=Todd
It is rather odd.
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Thanks again Alan. Perhaps he was doing something hush-hush ... (Grasping at straws!) Or some special halfway admin status for men with connections in the right places?
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I agree and I suspect it was not so much hush hush but rather that he was in the Volunteers (Home Guard) and not holding an actual commission but managed to be granted a TFR commission in 1917 by dint of his money and connections which subsequently became an honorary Captain. A title rather than an actual rank.
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I did wonder. His nephew on the other hand was very active (and killed) in WWII - Hadden Royden Todd (Major). Can't prove anything really about C. W. Todd. Thank you for all your help, everyone.
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He's certainly in the October 1916 Army List. Column 1036a, West Yorks Regiment, 7th and 8th Battalions:
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Here he is in the August 1916 list. Column 1036a, just to the left of "Cockburn High School Cadet Corps"
https://archive.org/details/monthly-army-list-1916-dec/page/n649/mode/2up
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Well found again, Shaun. So that looks like the regular army, and not a Reserve. Even if he was moved to the Reserve later. Looking on Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Yorkshire_Regiment, it looks as though the 7th and 8th Battalions were the Leeds Rifles and some were transferred to Territorial Reserve in 1916, so that would fit with later records. What do the numbers before the names mean? He has "8". I'm trying to find out if he actually went overseas.
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Well found again, Shaun. So that looks like the regular army, and not a Reserve. Even if he was moved to the Reserve later. Looking on Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Yorkshire_Regiment, it looks as though the 7th and 8th Battalions were the Leeds Rifles and some were transferred to Territorial Reserve in 1916, so that would fit with later records. What do the numbers before the names mean? He has "8". I'm trying to find out if he actually went overseas.
Why is this going overseas important? I have been at pains to let you know that older men were essential to back up/release younger ones for fighting overseas. He was an older man at the time of WW1
Others have found that his rank was not doffed by him, out of the blue as a sort of status giving cap for the golf club but has been properly given. His work in Nigeria was in fact as District Commissioner and that was a fairly weighty and important role in the UK Colonial Service.
If he was called on to serve, whether this was in England or not, as part of the armed forces he deserves to be on the memorial and to have his service carefully explained.
Serving officers/men, I know for a fact in WW2 in NZ, did not exhibit the slightly sneering attitude towards their fellow soldiers who were doing work at home or who who did admin work while overseas. They realised that all were essential to the war effort and all should have their service recognised.
And yes school cadets/territorial force membership did count. Both gave a person a familarity with marksmanship and forces life and discipline. It was easier to slot these soldiers in than raw recruits. This was very important especially in the early stages of both wars.
My Uncle held gold medals for marksmanship in the territorial/cadet force he belonged to at boarding school here in NZ When he ran away at age 15 to join the AIF he was placed appropriately because of this. He was killed in France while acting as a sniper, well forward, when he was 18 years old. He was wounded a couple of times and I have the shrapnel that was removed....he saved it! Along with his medal swaps.
Various of his brothers were able to slot across, some with commissions, some without into NZ regiments early in WW2 because of their TF training that had followed on from being in cadets at school. TF training meant going away on camps etc a couple of times a year and was a commitment as some employers did not pay or did not pay the full wage, for this time away. (They do now)
Please be careful to be bland and factual in the descriptions and not put a gloss/denigration, that would not have been exhibited by fellow soldiers to those who served but who were too old or who were more valuable to the Armed forces held back because of other skills eg admin or being a NZ based gunnery instructor as happened with one of my Uncles in the early part of WW2.
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So that looks like the regular army, and not a Reserve.
Not Regular Army. The 8th Battalion was a Territorial Force unit. Looking on Wikipedia, it looks as though the 7th and 8th Battalions were the Leeds Rifles and some were transferred to Territorial Reserve in 1916
Yes, the 8th Battalion was one of two battalions that, pre-war, made up the Leeds Rifles but I think you have misunderstood what was happening during the war. On the outbreak, the 8th Battalion was retitled 1/8th Battalion and deployed to France in April 1915. During 1914 a second line battalion named the 2/8th battalion was raised and they too deployed to France in January 1917. At the same time a reserve battalion was being raised with the Leeds Rifles in order to keep the 1/8th and 2/8th Battalions supplied with reinforcements. The other original Leeds Rifles Battalion, the 7th, did something very similar.
This article explains what was happening: https://web.archive.org/web/20051220115348/http://www.yorkshirevolunteers.org.uk/Leedsrifles.htm What do the numbers before the names mean? He has "8".
It means that he was serving in the 8th Battalion. Since the entry does not specify 1/8th or 2/8th (as is the case with 2Lt Lawson, four names above his in the Army List) we cannot be sure which unit he was with in 1916. However the earlier list which Shaun found (reply 49) does note the particular battalion, namely 3/8th, which seems to have been the Reserve Battalion which remained in the UK. That of course does not prove that Charles William Todd did not at some stage deploy to France, although the lack of a medal card does support that theory.
See the article on the West Yorkshire Regiment on the Long, Long Trail website: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-prince-of-waless-own-west-yorkshire-regiment/
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From Shaun:
It means that he was serving in the 8th Battalion. Since the entry does not specify 1/8th or 2/8th (as is the case with 2Lt Lawson, four names above his in the Army List) we cannot be sure which unit he was with in 1916.
All the more reason to be a bit circumspect in any write-up about this person.
From Shanreagh
Please be careful to be bland and factual in the descriptions and not put a gloss/denigration, that would not have been exhibited by fellow soldiers to those who served but who were too old or who were more valuable to the Armed forces held back because of other skills .......
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Thanks for all that very helpful information, Andy.
I think he was Assistant District Commissioner in Nigeria, not District Commissioner, but happy to be corrected.
It’s of interest whether he went overseas just to envisage what he was actually doing, Shanreagh.
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Here he is in the August 1916 list. Column 1036a, just to the left of "Cockburn High School Cadet Corps"
https://archive.org/details/monthly-army-list-1916-dec/page/n649/mode/2up
Good spot my searches for Todd did not pick that one up.
He was certainly not in the 1/8 nor 2/8 or he would have been in France and by dint of even setting foot in France would have qualified him for 2 medals in addition to his SWB which he claimed.
Due to his age then he may have been in the 3/8th which was the depot battalion and that was home based. The 3/8th would have been responsible for managing new recruits and reinforcements beings sent to the other battalions and also discharging soldiers, This would tie in with the idea that he was at a administrative desk job.
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Thanks Alan, that would make a lot of sense.
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The 8th Battalion was not the Regular Army but was one of the Territorial Battalions. As such he had a wartime commission with the substantive rank of Lieutenant. From the Find my past links in the earlier post he was given Temporary rank of Captain and then temporary Major to reflect the responsibility of the jobs he was doing in 1916. He was clearly one of the more senior officers in the depot if he was a T/Major.
In Sep 1916 the 3rd Battalions of the 7th and 8th were amalgamated so I suspect he was retired from that job as he was not needed in the merged battalion. So that would explain why he was placed in the TFR is even though as he was below the age limit.
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Thank you - he seems to have been adjusted up and down a lot. The Yorkshire Post, 13.7.1916, has him under ARMY SERVICE CORPS - "Territorial Force Reserve - Infantry, Sec. Lt (temp. Major) C. W. Todd from West Yorks regt. to be sec. lt."
And then up to temp Captain, 16.8.1916 (Gazette).
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he may have been in the 3/8th which was the depot battalion
Presumably that's what the "3-8" signifies
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Shaun
Yes you are correct. He is in the depot battalion that was amalgamated in mid 1916. When that job ends he is not selected to be in the newly merged unit so his temporary rank is removed and he is transferred into the TFR as a sec(ond) lt (lieutenant) before being given temporary Captain rank a month later. I suspect in reality his reduction to 2Lt was an admin measure and he went from wearing Major ranks crown down to Captain's pips.
Alan
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Thank you both. I think you have him sorted.
On the matter of his using his Captain title after the war, I read that it was disapproved of but not illegal. I feel it was a bit presumptuous given the number of active Captains who died or were disabled. I don't know how it went down locally - there were a number of fatalities, mostly privates, Sergeant being the highest rank.
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Thank you both. I think you have him sorted.
On the matter of his using his Captain title after the war, I read that it was disapproved of but not illegal. I feel it was a bit presumptuous given the number of active Captains who died or were disabled. I don't know how it went down locally - there were a number of fatalities, mostly privates, Sergeant being the highest rank.
Wherever you read that honorary rank was disapproved of is wrong. The same Army List for 1916, which Shaun linked to earlier in this thread, explains the official situation on page xi: https://archive.org/details/monthly-army-list-1916-dec/page/n54/mode/1up
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Thanks Andy - I was going off this exchange in Parliament, but perhaps it only applies to the Regular Army. I couldn't find the special rules he mentioned: https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1925/jun/23/retired-officers-retention-of-rank
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I would agree an honorary rank is just that - honorary not a title. On the same page as Todd's there are lots of honorary 2lts being granted. I bet none of them used 2Lt in the golf club!
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I suppose he did whatever was done in his particular social circle. I'm trying to think if there are any in novels like Jeeves & Wooster!
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There is certainly the Major in Fawlty Towers! I am old enough to remember the ilk!
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Me too. Let's hope he wasn't like him!
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Captain Mainwaring in Dad's Army?
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Hope he was a bit more competent than that.
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Thank you both. I think you have him sorted.
On the matter of his using his Captain title after the war, I read that it was disapproved of but not illegal. I feel it was a bit presumptuous given the number of active Captains who died or were disabled. I don't know how it went down locally - there were a number of fatalities, mostly privates, Sergeant being the highest rank.
Wherever you read that honorary rank was disapproved of is wrong. The same Army List for 1916, which Shaun linked to earlier in this thread, explains the official situation on page xi: https://archive.org/details/monthly-army-list-1916-dec/page/n54/mode/1up
Yes you are correct. No strictures against using any rank above a certain level after the wars. Some kept them as they continued to be involved in military matters in peacetime and others did not. Some used them according to the circumstances ie when say making approaches on behalf of returned service people to Govt they would show the rank, when hosting talks, officially meeting envoys of nations that either fought with them or against them.
I'd hate for my officer uncles (Major, Wing Commander, Captain) several of whom were older, some who remained here in NZ (Gunnery Instructor) and some who went overseas as older soldiers S/Sgt and two L/Cpls (both killed one in each war) and some who'd gone up through the ranks (Major, Wing Commander, Captain after TFR) to be dealt with in this slightly dismissive way apparent through here.
I'd hate to see it come through in a write-up about their service filtered through a lens of 'only overseas service counts/'but Mummy what did they do' and 'officers don't count''. Not one of the military men in my family ever, ever cast aspersions on where/how their fellow combatants served or their rank per se. Whether they liked them personally or felt these people were good at their jobs different story but based on rank, no.
That they served was the key and a bond forever.
This may sound a bit harsh but I'm going to say it anyway......hopefully the write-ups will be edited, peer reviewed so that contributions are recognised no matter what the rank or the theatre of war served, officer or ranks etc etc.
Hopefully a bland, plain but informative history is given.