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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: Lauraine on Thursday 27 October 05 22:23 BST (UK)

Title: NICOL family
Post by: Lauraine on Thursday 27 October 05 22:23 BST (UK)
 :)Hi:

Hope someone can advise me.† The Alexander NICOL family lived at 50 Helen Street, St. Vigeans, Fofar (Angus) in the 1881 census.† I have traced much of this family to Canada & U.S.,but missing some pieces as:

Death of Alexander NICOL (head in 1881).

Marriage of Brice/Bryce (f) NICOL - found one m. in 1875 in Montrose to a Fairweather, but with her shown on 1881 cenus as U doubt it is her.  Wouldn't they use W if she were a widow?

Brown NICOL (M)† - dead. married or emigrated? (not on 1881 census)

Betsy Ann NICOL - dead, married or emigrated?

I am sure Brice/Bryce emigrated to Chicago area in 1880's, but can't find her.

Advice required if Scotlands.people is the place to look for death of Alexander NICOL & trace Brown & Betsy?† Thanks all.

Lauraine
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: ysabeau on Monday 14 November 05 22:16 GMT (UK)
Hi

Found the following in the 1891 census for 54 Helen Street, Arbroath :

Nicol - Alexander - Head - Married - 63 years - Flax Dresser - born Arbroath

Nicol - Ann - Wife - Married - 63 years - born Arbroath

Nicol - Bryce - Daughter - Unmarried - 33 years - Millworker - born Arbroath

Nicol - David - Grandson - 6 years - Scholar - born Arbroath



And in the 1901 census for 82 Lochland Street, Arbroath :

Nicol - Bryce B - Head - Single - Flax Spinner - born Arbroath



Ysabeau
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: Lauraine on Monday 14 November 05 23:01 GMT (UK)
Hi Ysabeau:

Truly appreciate your finding this information for me.† :) Wonder who the parent of the David Nicol is?† Just when I was sure had most of the family accounted for from Alexander forward, you find a grandson unheard of!† Wow.† Was planning to look for Alexander on Scotland's people so will try for David who would have been born around 1885.† This census data is a wonderful source for my family tree. :D† Some kind roots chatter sent me information on death of Bryce, Brown & Betsy.† What† a supper group.

Thank you immensely from Canada.

Lauraine
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: HeatherB on Sunday 12 February 06 07:36 GMT (UK)
Another red herring for you my greatgrandfather was Nichol Rea/Rae born Forfar 1844 we know that the Nichol family are related to us but not how and we know their are relatives in Canada but nothing else a cousin of mine has a school photo sent from Canada no names though I thought I might put it on the internet in the future as someone might recognize it.

Cheers Heather
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: Lauraine on Sunday 12 February 06 07:55 GMT (UK)
Hi Heather:

Interested in seeing the photo.† Are you saying the forename is Nichol and the surname Rae or?† ::) Can you give me a birthdate & place of birth?† Will look around in Canada a bit.† My Nicol does not have the same spelling - no idea if that means anything.† Lots of Nicol/Nichols in this area and in Canada.† I have most of mine traced here, now going back and feel David NICOL (father of Alex) would be born 1790's or so.† Just so many Davids. May try for a death registration, but no idea when he died.

Lauraine
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: HeatherB on Sunday 12 February 06 20:13 GMT (UK)
My greatgrandfather's first name was Nicol sometimes spelt with 2Ls sometimes one he was given this first name because their was a family member by that surname who it was thought would leave him money. the surname is Rea but once the family left Scotland people seemed to spell it Rae because grandma couldn't read or write I guess it depended on the information that the people inputing into the documents had in their own minds the way it was written. Another cousin doing research in Canada said that her families grave in Perth had Nicol's buried in it but so far I have not been able to find anyone by that name but as I have not gone back in all branches it may just be hidden from present view. With this family they did not always name in the traditional way for instance Nicol's eldest son was called James after his best friend and his father Walter and nobody else has had this name so far but that could have been given him for inheritance purposes also.

I will write to the cousin about the photo and see if she can get a copy for me so I can scan it to you.

I just felt that sometimes another suggestion can lead you to where you need to go.

Cheers Heather
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: wildgoose on Monday 13 March 06 20:13 GMT (UK)
I have been researching this branch of the NICOLLs family for 3 years and iI have a large database which† includes Alexander and his 6 brothers(at the last count).† Please contact me at * for further information.

Dave

(*)

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Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: charmedc on Monday 20 March 06 13:19 GMT (UK)
Hello - just wondering if you have a Christopher Niccol/Niccoll c1885 who married a Euphemia Alexander? I know he had a son Douglas.
kindest regards
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: wildgoose on Monday 20 March 06 13:33 GMT (UK)
at this moment I haven't come across one.  However, that doesn't mean to say there isn't.  Up until last week I hadn't come across an Alexander NICOLL.
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: Margie1 on Monday 13 April 09 12:51 BST (UK)
My greatgrandfather's first name was Nicol sometimes spelt with 2Ls sometimes one he was given this first name because their was a family member by that surname who it was thought would leave him money. the surname is Rea but once the family left Scotland people seemed to spell it Rae because grandma couldn't read or write I guess it depended on the information that the people inputing into the documents had in their own minds the way it was written. Another cousin doing research in Canada said that her families grave in Perth had Nicol's buried in it but so far I have not been able to find anyone by that name but as I have not gone back in all branches it may just be hidden from present view. With this family they did not always name in the traditional way for instance Nicol's eldest son was called James after his best friend and his father Walter and nobody else has had this name so far but that could have been given him for inheritance purposes also.

I will write to the cousin about the photo and see if she can get a copy for me so I can scan it to you.

I just felt that sometimes another suggestion can lead you to where you need to go.

Cheers Heather

I am interested in the Nicol's burried at Perth Scotland - what is the name of the website to search for those burried there?

 ;D Maggie
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: Lauraine on Tuesday 14 April 09 21:29 BST (UK)
Hi Margie:

Nicol/Nicoll/Nichol were used as forenames in Shetland and it probably stems from patrynomics. - perhaps Nicholson, etc.† † I have a 4x G. Grandfather Nicol SMITH b. in Shetland that is no relation to my Nicol/Nichol family in Angus.† Most of the questions I posted earlier on Alexander Nicol have† been solved thanks to research and assistance from Wildgoose and others.† The unknown grandchild actually migrated to Canada with his mother and contact made with his descendants.

Lauraine
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: scotmum on Tuesday 26 May 09 21:11 BST (UK)
Wildgoose, on your Nicoll research, do you have any from Errol, Perthshire (early to mid 1800's), some of whom later lived in Dundee?
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: wildgoose on Tuesday 26 May 09 21:18 BST (UK)
My NICOLLs are all from Arbroath.  However because some were merchant seaman their children were born in London.
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: Margie1 on Tuesday 26 May 09 21:23 BST (UK)
From what I can gather ours were all from Errol, Perth, Scotland until 1853 where they were born in Liverpool and living in Toxteth Park and were publicans in the early days and then teachers from early 1800s from what I could find out on the censuses and through family search.org.

Where is Arbroath?

 :D
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: wildgoose on Tuesday 26 May 09 21:33 BST (UK)
You are kidding me...I've you never heard of Google maps :P
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: scotmum on Wednesday 27 May 09 11:56 BST (UK)
Margie1...could you give some names/dates of your Errol Nicolls?

Arbroath is near Dundee.
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: Deb D on Wednesday 27 May 09 12:44 BST (UK)
I have an Andrew Dunsire Nicoll in my tree, born about 1893, not sure where.  He married my great aunt Jessie Beveridge Kinnear (known as "Net"), born in Leven, Fife in 1895.  They were married around 1920-24, and had a daughter - there's a remote possibility the daughter is still alive, so I won't mention her name.

Would you have Andrew Dunsire Nicoll in your tree?
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: ev on Wednesday 27 May 09 13:20 BST (UK)
hi Deb D† :)

found on SP
andrew dunsire NICOL marriage to jessie beveridg(e) kinnear 1925 scoonie fife

ev
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: ev on Wednesday 27 May 09 13:45 BST (UK)
also SP

age a bit out but matches what you have -
andrew dunsire nicol born 1899 lanark

jessie beveridg(e) nicol(other surname kinnear) died 1988 lanark born c 1895
andrew dunsire nicol died 1977 lanark born c1900

ev
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: Deb D on Wednesday 27 May 09 14:02 BST (UK)
Thanks for that, ev ... just wondered whether he might have had any connection to the Nicol family of the original post :)
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: pantanifan on Sunday 31 May 09 14:11 BST (UK)
Have you come across Ann Nicoll.

DAVID PETRIE/ANN NICOLL
 Married 31 May 1829

Son David b.12 Dec 1829 MONIFIETH.

Grand Parents of my Grandad's Mum Jessie Petrie (Bell).

I can't find anything on Ann.
Born abt 1800 in Perthshire ..??
Died before 1837.

As David re-married to Elizabeth Louson.
28 Nov 1838 Panbride Angus.
Also Married at Monifieth.
18/11/1838.

David Petrie b. 8 Sept 1801 Panbride Angus.
d. 25 Mar 1867 St Vigeans Angus.
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: Margie1 on Monday 01 June 09 21:24 BST (UK)
We have the same names occurring over and over:† We do have an ann but she was born 27July 1826 in Errol, perth, Scotland and christened 5/8/1826.† I have not been able to follow the females only the males.† It has been difficult to follow people who dont have a second name.

Good luck with your searching.

Kind regards

Title: Re: NICOL family of St Vigeans
Post by: Lhconstantino on Monday 09 December 19 09:37 GMT (UK)
I am looking for information about George Nicol (abt 1816-1850), specifically names of parents and siblings.

George married Mary Kyd (1814-1904) in St Vigeans 12 Jul 1839 and came to the US about 1843 (and died before 1850).
Mary Kyd's brother Joseph Kyd married Isabella Nicol who may be a sibling or relative of George Nicol.

The is another George Nicol, who married Ann Doig - his descendants are also connected to the George Nicol Iím looking for. All involved, except perhaps Ann Doig, were born in St Vigeans. Happy to answer any questions - I have a lot more information about the families involved.
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: Forfarian on Monday 09 December 19 10:32 GMT (UK)
I presume you have the 1841 census, in which George Nicol, 25; Mary Nicol, 25 and George Nicol, 1 were living in Dishlandtown, Arbroath?

Adults' ages in 1841 were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years, and the census was taken on 7 June, so if George's age in 1841 is accurate he was born between 8 June 1811 and 7 June 1816. The census says he was born in Angus.

As he named his eldest son George, it may be that his father's name was also George. Have you seen the original of young George's baptism in 1840? Are the witnesses named?

Joseph Kydd, 30; Isabell Kydd, 25 and Joseph Kydd, 2, are in Keptie Street, Arbroath in 1841. So if Isabella's age is accurate she was also born between 8 June 1811 and 7 June 1816.

Have you seen the original of young Joseph's baptism in 1839? Are the witnesses named?

Did Joseph and Isabella also emigrate?

In 1851, Ann Nicoll, widow, aged 62, born Kirkden, is in Gowan Bank, St Vigeans, with son-in-law Charles Gibson and daughter Ann Gibson. She is not in the 1861 census, and there is no record of a death of Ann Doig or Nicol, so she must have died before 1855.

I looked in the book of monumental inscriptions but I found no Nicoll ones that shed any light on any of these people.
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: Lhconstantino on Monday 09 December 19 17:28 GMT (UK)
Thank you so much for responding!

1. Yes, I have the 1841 census of George, Mary (Kyd, daughter of George Kyd and Ann Gibson), and George. That is the George Nicol I am trying to identify. All three went to the US about 1843. George Sr died shortly after arriving in US. He and Mary Kyd are my 3rd great-grandparents.

2. I have the handwritten baptismal records from the Scottish Archives for George Nicol's son George and for Joseph Kyd's son Joseph. No witnesses are named in either. Are there other records that might show witnesses?

3. Joseph Kyd, Isabella, and son emigrated and went to the same place in the US that George, Mary, and George went. Young Joseph died either en route or shortly after arrival.

4. In the 1841 census, Joseph, Isabella, and Joseph were living with Ann (Gibson) Kyd (the mother of Joseph and of Mary Kyd, George Nicol's wife - their father was George Kyd) on Keptie Street. George Duncan, age 12, was also living in the household. Young George was the son of George Duncan and Ann Kyd. I canít find a baptismal record for Ann Kyd, so can't say how she is related to Ann Gibson Kyd and her children.

5. After emigrating, young George Duncan married Ann Nicol, the daughter of the other George Nicol I mentioned and his wife Ann Doig. I have marriage records for this George Nicol and Ann Doig, plus baptismal records for all their children and see no apparent connection between them, ďmyĒ George Nicol, or Isabella Nicol.

6. Ann Doig Nicoll and her children, including daughter Ann (who married George Duncan in the US), emigrated in 1853 (which is why she is not mentioned in the death records). They went to the same place in the US as the others I've mentioned. Note the correct Ann Doig Nicol is listed in the 1851 census in St Vigeans, Inverbrothock Parish on West Mill ? as Ann Nicoll, age 62, born Forfarshire, Arbroath, with children Betsy, William, Alexander, and Ann.

7. Young George Duncan and Ann Nicol had a son named Joseph Kyd Duncan, born in the US. After his mother Ann died in abt 1859, Joseph lived with Joseph Kyd and Isabella Nicol (by that time, their only son Joseph, discussed above, had also died). When Isabella Nicol Kyd died (after her husband), Joseph Kyd Duncan was her sole heir. She referred to him in her will as ďmy beloved nephew.Ē

8. Thank you for looking in the book of monumental inscriptions. Thatís something Iíve been wondering about.

9. I didnít know that ages in the census were rounded - that is very helpful information.

I hope this response isnít too confusing! The similar names can make clarity a challenge.

Thank you again for responding.
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: Forfarian on Monday 09 December 19 17:55 GMT (UK)
Are there other records that might show witnesses?
No, unfortunately.

Quote
I hope this response isnít too confusing! The similar names can make clarity a challenge.
They can indeed. This one looks like quite a hard nut to crack, because they all emigrated before even the 1851 census.

I am clean out of ideas but if anything occurs to me I'll let you know.
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: Lhconstantino on Monday 09 December 19 18:13 GMT (UK)
Thank you!
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: Lhconstantino on Monday 09 December 19 19:14 GMT (UK)
How likely is it for there not to be a baptismal record for a child? I have baptismal records for 8 children of George Kyd and Ann Gibson. Ann Kyd who married George Duncan Sr is not one of them. Yet, in 1841, George Duncan Jr was living with Ann Gibson Kyd and he was referred to in 1881 as the nephew of Isabella Nicol Kyd, wife of Ann Gibson Kyd's son Joseph. If Ann Kyd Duncan were another child of Ann Gibson Kyd, it would explain both the 1841 and 1881 records.
Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: Forfarian on Monday 09 December 19 20:13 GMT (UK)
How likely is it for there not to be a baptismal record for a child?
It's fairly common. Estimates of the proportion missing range from 10% to 30% or even more. It is commoner in towns and cities than in rural areas.

Quote
I have baptismal records for 8 children of George Kyd and Ann Gibson. Ann Kyd who married George Duncan Sr is not one of them. Yet, in 1841, George Duncan Jr was living with Ann Gibson Kyd and he was referred to in 1881 as the nephew of Isabella Nicol Kyd, wife of Ann Gibson Kyd's son Joseph. If Ann Kyd Duncan were another child of Ann Gibson Kyd, it would explain both the 1841 and 1881 records.
It's difficult without the actual ages from the 1851 or later censuses.

However.

George Kydd and Ann Gibson had
George, baptised 16 March 1795
Margaret, baptised 11 February 1797
John, baptised 27 September 1799
Jane, baptised 10 October 1801
Joseph, baptised 27 April 1804
James, baptised 20 May 1809
Beatrix, baptised 16 October 1813

and in the 1841 census in Keptie Street, Arbroath are
Agnes Kydd, 70
George Kydd, 40
Margaret Kydd, 25
John Kydd, 35
James Kydd, 25
Betsy Kydd, 25
George Duncan, 12

The names Agnes and Ann can be interchangeable, and Betsy can be short for Beatrice as well as for Elizabeth. By census day George would have been 45, Margaret 44, John 41, James 31 and Beatrix 28. So although the actual ages are a bit out, apart from Betsy, the order is right so I think this could be Ann Gibson or Kydd. (In Scotland we don't use xxx yyy zzz when xxx is a woman's given name, yyy her maiden surname and zzz her husband's name. We use xxx yyy or zzz, then it is clear that yyy is her maiden surname and not a middle name.)

George Duncan, aged 12, is exactly the right age to be the son of George Duncan Sr and Ann Kydd or Duncan, who was baptised on 18 September 1828.

There's a family in Helen Street, Arbroath, consisting of George Duncan, brewer, 45; Ann Duncan, 30, and James Duncan, 11. James, baptised 16 November 1830, son of George Duncan and Ann Kydd or Duncan, would not quite have been 11 on census day 1841, but only a few months off. So if this is the right couple, and if Ann's age is accurate, she would have been born between 1806 and 1811. There do seem to be gaps in the family of George Kydd and Ann Gibson or Kydd after 1805 long enough for there to have been another child.

So it is certainly possible, and given that young George is in the household of Agnes Kydd, who is probably Ann Gibson or Kydd, it looks reasonable to suppose that he is a grandson and therefore that Ann Kydd or Duncan is a daughter of George Kydd and Ann Gibson or Kydd. But I don't know how you could prove it!

Title: Re: NICOL family
Post by: Lhconstantino on Tuesday 10 December 19 08:17 GMT (UK)
Again, extraordinarily helpful information. I'll respond more later, but just found something in the US records that I want to pursue before I do. Be back shortly.Gratefully, Laurie