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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: dylan on Thursday 26 August 04 15:40 BST (UK)
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Looking for any tips on Tracing Hawkers in 1841
I am at a solid wall,
I have been looking for my Cleverly ancesters for years and have found them back to1851 they were in the east Sussex areas and settled in Hastings in 1861, any clues welcome
thanks
Dylan
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Hi Dylan
Welcome to Rootschat - nice to have you onboard.
Hawkers are always going to be difficult to trace as they moved where trade was good - and in the early to mid 1800's, the seaside revolution was underway, aided by the railways.
What exactly are you looking for, you say you have them back to 1851 - is that through the census records? Where does it say their birthplaces were.
Had a look on 1841 census for Hastings - but no Cleverly listed at all.
The more you can tell us, the more we can help you
Chris in 1066Land
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Hi Dylan,
Welcome.
I am interested in the same subject - I have more than a few licensed hawkers in my family. When I get home I'm going to dig out a wee book about gypsies because if memory serves me there is a paragraph on finding hawker licences.
Pam
;D
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hi, Re my Hawkers,
My G G Grandmother was Miriam Cleverly, she was born in 1827 in Heathfield, in the 1851 census she was in Netherfield living in tents with Mathew Mitchell as his wife and there 3 children.by 1861 they had settled in Hastings and married there in 1864,I am hopeing I might be able to find them in the 1841 census somewhere to see who she was with them,as on her birth her father is given as William and on her Marriage he is given as Thomas,I believe the latter to be the correct one.as I have found a marriage for him in Bexhill in 1822
What a headache they are giveing me
Many thanks
Dylan
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Pam - if you can find the information on hawkers licences I'd be interested in that too.
Dylan - the only thing I can suggest it to take a look at the Romany & Traveller family history society if you've not already done that - http://website.lineone.net/~rtfhs/
Sasha. :)
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Phew, finaly found it...
My Ancestors were gypsies
Sharon Sillers Floate
SoG publication http://www.sog.org.uk
(Excerpt p45) Occupational Records
Some occupations treaditionally followed by Gypsies were subject to government regulation and required licences.
As one example, those for hawkers and pedlars (*The difference being pedlars travelled on foot and hawkers by horse) were first introduced in 1697. The PRO at Kew holds registers of these Hawker licences dating from 1697 to 1699. These contain information on 4000 people but disappointingly few obvious Gypsy names. [NB: PRO ref A03/370 &371]
Licences and certificates were also issued by the quarter sessions for the following trades in the 18th & 19th centuries: pedlars, hawkers, chimney sweeps, higglers and kidders (hawkers of corn & meal) and badgers (dealers in corn and other foods).
For the where abouts of quarter sessions records containing possible references to licences granted and details to those which have been printed, use Jeremy Gibson's Quarter Sessions Records for Family Historians.
From 1870 the responsibility for the licensing of pedlars and hawkers was passed to the police. They were also responsible for issuing certificates to chimney sweeps, another trade that gypsies sometimes followed.
It seems highly unlikely that many gypsies of the 18th or early 19th centuries would have bothered to approach teh authorities for licence to trade. But as the 19th century progressed and such legislation became more vigorously enforced, you will find many gypsies describing themselves in census returns as "Licenced Hawker" and should therefore find that their names are included in licensing registers. Licensing of this kind was continued into the 20th century.
For information on what police records have survived consult Bridgeman and Emsley's A guide to the Archives of the Police Forces of England and Wales. This gives a county-by-county listing of material that continued to be held by modern day police forces in 1992, the dates of publication - covering both licensing registers and criminal records, 2 random examples from it being:
Huntingdonshire County Constabulary
Register of Pedlars 1877-1967
West Riding of Yorkshire
Pedlars and chimney sweeps certificates 1886-1930
In some counties police forces may have deposited their records with the local county record office.
Hope this helps you track down your elusive relies.
On one of the pages it gives an example cert from 1936 it has name, address, age and appearance. So for 1840s the quarter sessions look like the best bet. :)
All the best,
Pam
;D
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Right ho lets start at the beginning. Why do people assume that Hawkers were gypsies? They weren't. All a hawker did was carry his wares on his back. Thats the definition of the trade. Yes licences may still be about but dont hold your breath and dont expect them to tell you anything. All they will say is that XYZ is licenced to ply hos goods on the street. Basically the same as the modern equivalent does.
Pam thx for the description and its very illuminating. Higglers were always associated with mining or so I believed so I have learnt something :)
Back to the original poster. Have you got a copy of the birth certificate? If so who is the informant? If it is the mother then you may well have her telling porkies to turn an illigitimate birth into a legit one. Check the baptism records to confirm. If it the father who informed the registrar then the marriage in Bexhill is the wrong one. Secondly for a Hawker family he doesn't seem to have travelled to far. Mountfield to Netherfield = 3 miles at the most. Mountfield to Hastings about 10 miles. Bexhill to Netherfield about 10 miles. Knowing those areas they weren't to populated so wouldn't have been a very good selling area for a hawker although Battle would have been. Maybe ask Chris1066 to have a look the next time he visits Lewes
Rob
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Right ho lets start at the beginning. Why do people assume that Hawkers were gypsies?
Duuurrr Rob! No assumption made, sunshine, it's an excerpt from a book about tracing your Gypsy ancestory and it lists many other occupations but the poster asked about hawkers. So smoke it! By the way how are you :-*
The census was taken earlier in the year when many travelling folk - commercial or social, are in the wintering areas there for they look like they never left home.
Anyway good luck all (even you rob, sweetheart)
P ;D
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Pam,
Thanks for the information. ;D
Whilst the licence might not give many details, if it gives the appearance of the holder, like the example you gave, it would be worth getting a copy just for that. And I didn't know that a hawker travelled by horse.
Rob, I only suggested the Romany & Traveller fhs as it covers both gypsies and travellers. My husband's hawkers were definately gypsies - I've also got a hawker on my side who's not so I wasn't making any assumptions. From the mid 1850's onwards all of mine, gypsy or not, were in roughly the same place each year on the census returns - whether they moved far during the rest of the year I do not know.
Sasha. :)
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Hi Dylan,
Found this for you in Family Tree magazine, August issue,
http://www.passing-through.co.uk/
Also www.nwon.com/pauline/Travellers. 'page not available' came up when I went here)
Another is www.thegalloper.com but mainly deals with circus, fairground & music hall family research.
Can some bright spark explain to dim-wit me, why, when I go to copy & paste addresses for sites, as in this case, when I minimise the reply page I'm working on & go to a site to copy & paste an address my reply page disappears and I have to start all over again. That's why I could only paste in the first html (is that the right word?) for this reply, the other two had to be typed in.
It drives me crazy when I've got several addresses to copy & paste in,
Jane
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Hi Jane,
I had the same problem with the reply page going when I went to look for a link somewhere else >:( You can alter the defaults on your pc so that when you open a page it opens in a new window but what I do (with the reply page open)is to click File and then 'new window'and voila your reply page stays open and another identical window will open so you can use that one for looking elsewhere on the web and your original window will stay intact ;D
Hope this helps a bit,Mick ;)
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Thanks Mickey, I'll try that next time,
Jane
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Hi All, Many thanks for all the tips given to find my gg granddad,I have G grandmas Baptism which gives him as Pedlar, on his marriage he is given as Chimney sweep, and the three childen I have found all born diferent areas,as he was a widower when they married and she a widow I guess that they did'nt need to give dads name, one of the daughters is in one census as a tramp,so they cannot be called true gypsys.Having found 4 lines in my rellies search all of the roaming kind, frustrastion is growing.
Cheers
Dylan
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Pam,
You may want to go re read what I put and who I was replying to. You then may want to go and re read the piece you so elequently typed up and posted to the list. Then smoke an appology all the way to me lol
It says from your piece "Some occupations treaditionally followed by Gypsies were subject to government regulation and required licences.
As one example, those for hawkers and pedlars (*The difference being pedlars travelled on foot and hawkers by horse) were first introduced in 1697. The PRO at Kew holds registers of these Hawker licences dating from 1697 to 1699. These contain information on 4000 people but disappointingly few obvious Gypsy names. [NB: PRO ref A03/370 &371"
Now lets break that down It says Some occupations traditionally followed by gypsies and then quotes an example of Hawkers and Pedlars. It doesn't say that Hawkers and pedlers were gypsies now does it?
Until you stepped in no one had mentioned Gypsies on the thread but you assumed that hawkers were always gypsies. Well here's one my 3 x Great Grandfather was a hawker but he wasn't a gypsy he actually came off a good family in Derbyshire, one that is still in the same area and still going strong.
So all in all Hawkers were not gypsies but it was a trade that Gypsies did follow.
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;D LOL ;D Rob, I knew you'd go for that.
Not to turn this thread into a domestic, but I repeat no assumption was made about gypsies and hawkers. Where did I say that? Where did anyone say it?
The fact remains pertinant though, that tracing families that roamed is difficult and in the case in point it doesn't matter whether a person is from Romany stock or not the techniques for research are similar and the Romany & Traveller fhs are very helpful.
A point I would like to make to you madbad is that your assumption is unacceptable (sorry dylan this is a bit of a hijack)
Well here's one my 3 x Great Grandfather was a hawker but he wasn't a gypsy he actually came off a good family in Derbyshire, one that is still in the same area and still going strong.
Are gypsys not good families?!?1?!? How outrageous! As one who is decended from a family of potters who are thought to be of traveller if not gypsy stock (Youngs & Lowthers) I am offended.
On a further and slightly childish note :P
Your original note is not directed at anyone if you were talking (posting) to Sharon Sillers Floate then you're a weirdo she ain't here Honeybear :-*
If it was directed at me then I refer the honourable gentleman to the previous paragraphs.
Anyway none of this is helping the Cleverly's get found!
Love you all,
Pam
;D
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Hi Dylan,
Found this for you in Family Tree magazine, August issue,
http://www.passing-through.co.uk/
Also www.nwon.com/pauline/Travellers. 'page not available' came up when I went here)
Another is www.thegalloper.com but mainly deals with circus, fairground & music hall family research.
Can some bright spark explain to dim-wit me, why, when I go to copy & paste addresses for sites, as in this case, when I minimise the reply page I'm working on & go to a site to copy & paste an address my reply page disappears and I have to start all over again. That's why I could only paste in the first html (is that the right word?) for this reply, the other two had to be typed in.
It drives me crazy when I've got several addresses to copy & paste in,
Jane
For the site that comes up 'page not available' try this link http://users.nwon.com/pauline/Travellers.html
Sasha.
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Pam,
Sorry but in the time period we are talking travellers ( not gypsies they were romanies) were considered as trouble thieves vagabonds etc so yes they weren't considered good just as many today aren't. The fact is I was responding to the fact you made a connection which inferred hawkers were travellers/gypsies when in fact the point I made they weren't.
At the end of the day genealogy is about precise facts and when helping others we shoud be as precise. Now back to genealogy
rob
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In the interest of genealogy, I dispute what you say.
My potters of East End in Wigton believed by another researcher to be descended from Romanies (there are connections with Romany families Sewell, Young, Lovell) are extensive land owners and appear to have been respected members of the community. This can only be inferred from the slim mentions of them at Quarter Sessions etc.
Are they a "not good" family? If you want to perpetuate a petty prejudice that a small sector of sciety has heaped on the travelling community then that is your perogative but please do not call that precise genealogy.
Loving the banter,
Pam
;D
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Well, I have only been away for the weekend, and I come back to all sorts of Flaming and hi-jacking. Am I going to have to smack some legs?
Kazza.
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Hi,
My first posting.
The sites mentioned by Jane Masri:
http://www.passing-through.co.uk/
www.nwon.com/pauline/Travellers
These are research sites by Jackie and Pauline. As I have a foot in both camps (Gypsy and Travelling Showman) I told them about each others sites.
There are listings of all odd occupations - from most of the late census returns. You can email either of them to add to these, as I have done.
Why do we get back to the old cabbage about Gypsy in the family? To me, rather than working for someone for next to nothing, my family got out there and worked and had a good standard of living. I'm proud of my roots and researching any Gypsy/Showman/Traveller from Kent,London and E.Sussex.
In 1918 my GGdad Richard Pettigrove was the owner of "Fun City" several shops in the middle of the town, Ashford, Kent. Yet when he didnt pay his rates, he was just a Travelling Gypsy to the Judge. On Census returns his GDad was an Artisan and that of his wife family Fair Ground Caterers. My GdDad was a Hawker on his marriage cert., and in turn on my birth cert., I am the daughter of a Travelling Showman. The question is do I care what they have been called? I am proud of them and the standards they set have been passed down to me and my sister. We are on this site to help each other and lets hope that we can forget this Hawker/Gypsy question.
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I hope this always friendly site is not turning into a vehicle for special interests to have a rant. I have no axe to grind for any part of this argument. I believe it is a pity that an honest effort by some people to research their ancestry has produced a number of perfectly insulting replies [amongst those of use].
Politeness is an obligation on civilised people, not a matter to be reserved for "Sunday best".
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Hi Dylan
You were really lucky to have found your rellies living in a tent 1851 census because it wasn't necessary to list those not living in houses until 1861 - must have been a very conscientious enumerator! The law changed for the 1861 census and then there were separate pages titled "Those not living in houses" which were entered at the end of each district - quite easy to find as you can skip to the end of each district - which includes those who slept in tents, barns, sheds, vans etc..
Hence doubt you will find them in 1841 census at all.
The best of luck with your future Gypsy/traveller research
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Hi there
There must have been more than one conscientious enumerator - as the 1851 for sussex contains lots of entries for tents, sheds, barns and roadside buildings.
Maybe it was moere common place than was at first thought
Chris in 1066Land
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Hi,
I am researching Isaiah Carter (born approx 1824) who on one census described as a licensed hawker.
I have seen the post with the extract from 'my ancestors were gypsies' saying for references to licences use jeremy gibson's quarter sessions records for family historians, does anybody know where I can find this?
Fiona