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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: mickdickson on Friday 11 November 05 21:35 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone,
My family is trying to work past our biggest roadblock we have found in our quest for ancestors.
We have an extract (below) from the OPR of Carlaverock for the marriage of my g-g-g-g grandparents, Richard Dickson and Elspeth Dickson there on April 7 1768. It says that Richard is from Mousewald (well it looks like that anyway) and that Elspeth is the daughter of John Dickson in Byers. Other Dickson marriages on the same record page also give places like 'in Blackshaw' etc.
Does anyone have any idea where Byers is or was? The closest I have come is an old Barony in East Lothian. Someone has said it maybe a farm or something in the parish.
Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Mick Dickson
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Byers could be no more than byre - cow shed in which case it would be Byre of the other location, indicating a subordinate farmstead, or the cattle herder's cottage by the Byers of XYZ. At first glance I thought the first place name was Mousewold, but not so sure. However the name may occur as a place name without habitation as Byers of XYZ where it perpetuates tradition or myth. Be prepared to find loads of them on a large scale map, but few if any in a place-names gazetteer.
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Thanks Longshanks,
I had found that Byer could be a cowshed or such but as it said 'in Byers' as other records on the page say 'in Blackshaw' etc I thought it maybe a small place in Caerlaverock that was not gazetted that someone may have come across before.
Its definitely Mouswald or Mousewald as they seem to move to Mouswald and have a few children between 1773 and 1790 there and the family continued to live in Mouswald Parish, particularily Woodside from census records etc until at least 1938 as far as we can tell when Jacob Dickson, Blacksmith, died there. He was a brother of my great-grandfather. We will continue our quest.
Cheers
Mick Dickson
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It would be a good idea to check some map sources. MI (monument inscription) volumes sometimes have a map showing places named on gravestones. These are useful for obsolete names that might not be available elsewhere, though as early- to mid- 20th century they may not be reliable. An enquiry through the library in Dumfries (Ewart) might get this info.
William Roy's Military Map of Scotland 1747-55 is in the British Library with only copies in Scotland. Some Scottish libraries have microfiche copies. Otherwise ask the BL - copies aren't that expensive, and all the need is an area around a findable place name.
Try the National Library of Scotland website which has on line access to some old maps by county, eg 18th to 19th century. These can be very useful.
Do you know anyone who can do a search through the Abridged Seisins in Register House, Edinburgh? There are place name indexes for 1780-1840; intermittently beyond.
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This page may contain your answer...
http://www.lendingtheway.com/Crocket/Galloway.html
Not far off, on what later became the B725 still heading south, we spied on our left Caelaverock church, down a track beside Byers Farm.
or this reference...
http://www.clanboyd.info/outsideusa/scotland/wills/wills4/index.htm
16 Jun 1896 - Farmer - sometime at Bailieknowe - Parish of Caerlaverock - latterly residing at Byers - in said Parish - d. 03 May 1896 at Byers aforesaid - testate - Dumfries Sheriff Court
John
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Thanks a lot for that, John and Longshanks . Will check out the maps etc. The Crocket website is good, if anything it gives me a tour or Kirkcudbright. We have found something on the Byers Farm, I think one of the census has someone living there but not a Dickson at that time. At least we may have narrowed it down.
Longshanks, No I haven't anyone in Edinburgh at this time to check out Register House. We have found no one on the Dickson side of the family who actually lives in Scotland. But will keep these sources in mind.
Cheers, thanks again
Mick Dickson
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I have found old-maps.co.uk very useful for small settlements. Some of them have disappeared today and the locals forgotten they ever existed!
Type in Carlaverock and , if you are in luck, they will offer a map from about 1840 -1860.Use the enlarge function the n scan back and forward about ten (mouse)clicks each side. Look for the small roads and follow them to where they peter out in the hills. I found Largerie in Kirkcudbrightshire by this method.
Best of luck with the search
Russell
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Thanks Russell.
Using the info from yesterday's replies and yours, I have located an 1861 map on old-maps of the Bankend area of Caerlaverock and there is was North of Bankend and just next door to the Church.
Cheers
Mick
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re your request for information on Byers. The Byers is a small farm next to Caerlaverock Church. In fact you have to park in the farm yard to enter the churchyard. I have loads of ancestors buried in this churchyard, their family name is Craik. I live in Dumfries and Bankend is only a short distance from here and I often go down to graveyard and put flowers on my grandparent's grave. If there is any other information you would like me to look for when I am down there then I would only be too pleased to do so.
Hope this is of help.
Kathleen McGill, Dumfries
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Hi Kathleen,
Thanks very much, I'll send you a personal message shortly.
Cheers
Mick :)
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My 4th Great Grandfather was Richard Dickson who married Elspeth abt 1768. I can't seem to make any headway on just who was Richards Father so have gone off on his wife's side.
Elspeth father seems to have been another Dickson (John) who married Agnes. Johns father seems to be Samuel who married Elizabeth abt 1700. Does anyone have any info on Samuel. I believe they lived in the Caerlaverock area of Scotland. Any information would be a big help. Thanks, Richard Dickson
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Richard,
I can't remember if I've conversed with you before but we share the same 4G Grandparents, can I ask which line do you descend from? I am from Thomas (1790-1869) to Jacob (1823-1896) to Thomas (1856-1932) and Thomas (1885-1935).
As with you, I can not connect Richard with any Dickson lines in the Mouswald or Caerlaverock areas. Its a possibility he is related to the Rev Jacob Dickson in Mouswald somehow, possibly a cousin. Can I ask how you connected John Dickson to a Samuel Dickson? I can't find anything before the start of record keeping in that parish. I do believe that Elspeth may have had a sister Charlot who was born Jun 1749 as one of Richard and Elspeth's children was also called that. I have never been able to find an MI for Richard or Elspeth.
Michael Dickson
QLD, Australia
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Hi Michael, Good to hear from you as we share 4G grandparent in Richard and Elspeth. I come down from the line of that JAMES b. 1769. He is often not listed in the children of Richard and Elspeth, but I believe should be in their line. From James there is John b.1814, then another John b. 1846, then John again b. 1867 who came to America and married Mary Louise Foss (my grandparents). They had Robert Gordon my father. I believe I found Samuel while going through the Ancestry.com public ancestry lines. I'm fairly new to all this and appreciate all the research you have put into the Dickson line, its been a big help to me. Hopefully we can continue to trade notes in the future on the Dickson's. -Richard
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G'Day Richard,
Yes, I have come to same conclusion as you, that James (1769) was a child of Richard and Elspeth. Mainly due to fact that there is the gap between the marriage and the first recorded child I found, Margaret in 1773. Also the similarity in children's names. 'Richard' was not handed down any of the other lines other than yours and once in Thomas's. Thomas, my 3G GF, had a Eppy, James, Janet, Richard, Robert, John, Jacob, Thomas, David, Jane and Mary. James did have a son Richard but I have lost that line as James and his wife Elisabeth Edgar went to NY, where she died in 1852.
I can assume you have seen my 'Dicksons of Dumfriesshire' tree then. I don't have a John b 1846 in your line but a James. A John was born in 1852ish according to the 1861 census. Although I must admit I have not delved deeply into your lines as yet. You can email me at (*) if you like.
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Richard,
I've looked at one of the trees on Ancestry that has your Mary Louise Foss, the Dickson lines I believe are from in Aberdeen and possibly Midlothian . There is nothing to connect these to the Dicksons in Dumfriesshire, miles away. Someone has just found a John or James or Richard that looked right and put them in without checking the ScotlandsPeople site or other sources. If you haven't looked at my Tree, please do, its not perfect but I have more info offline.
Cheers
Mick
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Hi Michael, That John Dickson born 1846 or 1845 in some records was my Great Grandfather and he married Jane Robertson B. 1846. On my grandmother Foss side I was able to go way back from America to England to Denmark to a "Mikkel" b. 1511 who had a father named "Anders" who I do not have a birth date as yet. Also, on my wife's side, her father came down from the SARGENT'S in Nova Scotia and, even more amazing the BRUCE line going back to King Bruce in Scotland and a date of 1243.
I'm also wondering if, in your opinion, you might think Richard, husband of Elspeth may have come from a Irish line or if some of our ancestors came from Ireland? My E-mail is: (*) I have seen your Dickson Tree and it is VERY impressive, good job and a lot of hard work. Aloha-Richard
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Hi
Byers farm in Caerlaverock is right beside the church. In fact visitors to the church have to park in the farmyard. I know it well, my grandparents are buried just over the wall from the farmyard.
Ian A McClumpha
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hi, slightly random but we are related. I am from the glendinning ferguson branch. I've pulled up afew of the names you have too.
I'm heading to Kirkcudbright tomorrow to trace the lines
sarah