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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cornwall => Topic started by: D@Z!! on Wednesday 01 September 04 02:55 BST (UK)
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I need help. I am looking for information on my 13th generation father, Robert Rule who was born about 1560 and died in Camborne in 1610. This, and that according to his will that he was a farmer is all I know about him.
Can anybody help, preferable freely. Any information would be gratefully accepted.
Email it to E-mail address removed to prevent spamming - PLEASE use the private message facility - Global Moderator please: NO SPAM.
regards,
D@Z!!
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G'day
Is this the Robert RULE who was father of the following:
Degory RULE born ca 1585
James RULE born ca 1598 Camborne
John RULE born ca 1600 Camborne
Christopher RULE born ca 1602 Camborne
I am descended from John who m Margery ca 1620.
Regards
Peter
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Hi,
I have Mary RULE married to Joseph DAWE 26 Jun 1834 Redruth Cornwall
(my 4 x great grandparents).
They emigrated to Australia 1846.
Do you have her in your family?
Cheers,
Darren M Flowers
Wyrallah NSW
Australia
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Hi Darren
I have a few possible Mary RULEs in my tree. Do you know the names of the parents of your Mary? When was she born?
I found the following on 1841 census:
1841 Jun 7: ENG CON Redruth Trenerry's Court:
DAWE, Joseph, 30, copper miner
DAWE, Mary, 25
DAWE, Henry, 15, mine lab
DAWE, Joseph, 5
DAWE, Mary, 2
all born in county
[HO 107 Piece 143 Book 15 Folio 18 Page 29 CP Redruth Hundred Penwith RD Redruth SD Redruth ED 4 Line 21].
Neighbours were Stephens and Thomas families.
If this is your Mary, her birth would have been around 1810 to 1815 or so, I guess.
Her father's name would be on the marriage certificate.
Cheers
Peter
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Hi Peter,
Yes this is the Mary RULE I referred to as her daughter Mary DAWE which you have shown on the Census being 2 yrs old is my 3 x great grandmother who married John Henry Parsons HARDING in Blakiston Sth Aust 30 Oct 1856.
I have her being born circa 1838 whereabouts unknown with parents Joseph and Mary. I have a brother a two years older than her named Joseph so I think that this entry you have found is a part of my family.
Do you have this same family in your tree?
Cheers,
Darren M Flowers
Wyrallah NSW
Australia
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P.S
Sorry I do not know the name of the parents of the mother Mary DAWE (nee RULE)
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Hi Darren
I won't know if your Mary is one of the possibles in my tree until we can find out her father's name. The marriage is before registration, so the parish marriage register is unlikely to name the father, I suppose? If she died in SA, the death certificate is unlikely to name the father, either.
Hmmm... what to do next? ??? I'm stumped.
Maybe someone else can suggest something?
Cheers
Peter
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Some possibilities from the IGI
The only Mary RULE's born in the appropriate timeframe are all in Camborne which from my roadmap of Great Britain isn't that far from Redruth where she married into the DAWE family.
There are none chr at Redruth. i suspect one of the below is the one I am looking for.
Mary RULE chr 10 Jan 1807 to Philip and Mary RULE Camborne
Mary Anne RULE chr 11 April 1806 to John and Anne RULE Camborne
Mary RULE chr 24 Jan 1808 to James and Elizabeth RULE Camborne
Mary RULE chr 10 Feb 1810 to John and Mary RULE Camborne
Mary Anne RULE chr 26 Dec 1810 to John and Elizabeth RULE Camborne
Maria RULE chr 11 Sept 1813 to Philip and Anne RULE Camborne
Mary RULE chr 2 Oct 1813 to Francis and Anne RULE Camborne
I need to go pick up 5 of my kids from spoting appointments now, so will have to wait until later tonight to try and locate these Mary Rule's marriages and any census records etc...
In the meantime if someone else wants to have a shot, please go ahead.
Bye for now,
Darren M Flowers
Wyrallah NSW
Australia
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Hi Darren
This is going to be difficult, I think.
The best match from my tree is Mary RULE, bapt 1813, daughter of John RULE and Grace BRAY, baptised at parish of ILLOGAN. This is between Redruth and Camborne. There were many Rule families in the area. The Illogan records are not on the IGI as far as I know. Grace BRAY was one of three sisters to marry different RULE family members:
Mary BRAY m 26 Dec 1793 Illogan to Thomas RULE bapt 1764 s/o John RULE & Jane BAUDEN (this rule line is connected to me) (11 children)
Anne BRAY m 28 Feb 1796 Illogan to Christopher RULE bapt 1769 s/o John RULE & Jane BAUDEN (also connected to me) (4 children, but he had more to his second wife)
Grace BRAY m 7 May 1803 Illogan to John RULE born ca 1778 (but I don't know who his parents were) (6 children)
The BRAY girls were daughters of James BRAY and Grace FRANCIS. Grace BRAY nee FRANCIS left a will dated 1828, I believe.
As for the brothers who married two of the BRAY girls, their family was:
John RULE s/o Christopher RULE & Elizabeth SOUDEN
bapt 3 Aug 1729 Illogan
died ca 1784 Illogan
marr 1 Feb 1750 Illogan to
Jane BAUDEN d/o Thomas & Elizabeth BAUDEN
bapt 26 Apr 1730
They had a son John bapt 25 Mar 1753 so too old to be the one that married the third BRAY girl, I think. But, this John had a bastard child (mentioned in the will of John's father John), however, I don't have details of the child or its mother.
Sorry for the ramble.
Cheers
Peter
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Hi Peter,
Rambling is fine.
The online IGI has many RULE's listed from Illogan but no DAWE's
The online IGI has many DAWE's listed from Redruth but no RULE's
Interesting seeing my Parish Locator lists the distance between the two parishes as just 1.8 km
Anyway I have decided to start a database on my Cornish connections.
Something I done many years ago with my Lincolnshire connections, so that will keep me busy for awhile.
I wonder how you do find a womens father pre 1837?
Bye for now,
Darren M Flowers
Wyrallah NSW
Australia
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Peter,
Searching thru all my papers I have found some info my mother was sent a few years ago on my DAWE/RULE families.
It states that my Mary RULE is the daughter of John RULE and Mary SAMPSON.
I have not validated this as yet.
Cheers,
Darren M Flowers
Wyrallah NSW
Australia
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Good Morning Darren
I checked my data for a Mary SAMPSON, but no result, I'm afraid.
Do you know if Joseph and Mary DAWE had a family Bible? It might give their dates of birth or baptism, or possibly the names of their parents. If you haven't already done so, ask around the family - check each branch of descendants.
Perhaps the Camborne baptism of Feb 1810 that you noted is now looking like the best option so far.
If I think of anything else, I'll post again.
Cheers
Peter
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Hi Darren
I had another thought on this problem. Rule is a surname of high frequency in Cornwall, and so is Williams (my line). I had great success sorting out my South Australian Williams connections to Cornwall by analysing the passenger lists of the ship they arrived on ("William Money", 1849). I obtained a copy of all of the documents relating to the voyage, including lists that showed the Embarkation Order Numbers (EON) for each passenger. I typed all of this into a spreadsheet and sorted by EON, and was able to identify members of my family by proximity of EON. Perhaps your family arrived with close relatives on the same ship, and this could help to identify extended family in Cornwall. That might then lead you to determining Mary's family. It's a long shot, but worth pursuing, I think.
Cheers
Peter
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My grandfather was William John Rule b. 1900 m. Edna Milne s/o Joseph Rule b. 1850 m. Ellen Reed. Joseph's father was John Rule b. 1808 m. Grace Hocking. John's father was John Rule b. 1775 m. Grace Bray.
Is this the Grace Bray that is mentoned in reply #8 from Peter?
I have John's father as Peter Rule b. 1756 m. Margaret Cocking.Then John Rule b. 1775 m. Catherine?. Then Peter Rule b. 1668 m. Elizabeth.
Then Christopher Rule b. 1634 m. Joane Stevens.
I have just recently started genealogy and have certificates confirming as far back as John Rule & Grace Hocking.
Does anybody else have information confirming the above?
Christine
Whangarei
NZ
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Hi Christine
For John RULE who married Grace BRAY 7 May 1803 at Illogan, children appear to be William 1804, James 1805, Ann 1807, Grace 1809, John 1811 and Mary 1813 (years approx). Grace BRAY was bapt 27 Mar 1780 at Illogan, d/o James BRAY & Grace FRANCIS. Grace BRAY nee FRANCIS died 1828 and left a will.
James BRAY & Grace FRANCIS had at least 6 children: Mary 1774 (m 1793 to Thomas RULE b 1764 s/o John RULE & Jane BAUDEN), Anne 1776 (m 1796 to Christopher RULE b 1769 s/o John RULE & Jane BAUDEN), James 1783 (m 1811 to Frances RICHARDS), John (mentioned in his mother's will), Joseph (mentioned in his mother's will) and Grace 1780 (m 1803 to John RULE). WIth so many connections to the John RULE m Jane BAUDEN family, it might be theorised that the John RULE who m 1803 to Grace BRAY was also closely connected to Jane BAUDEN.
As to Peter RULE who m 1768 Illogan to Margaret COCKING, I had the following children - Peter 1771 (must have died in infancy), Peter 1773 and Henry (or Henery) 1787. I don't know of any other children to this couple. The Peter RULE who m 1768 was bapt 1744 at Illogan to John RULE and Catherine PERKING, I reckon.
You said "Peter Rule b. 1756 m. Margaret Cocking". If that was so, he was only 12 years old when he married, so I think your statement must be in error.
I think you need to look more into the BRAY family, especially the connections to the several RULE sons of Jane BAUDEN.
Cheers
Peter
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Hi Peter
Thanks for your reply. You have given me a great deal more info to look into.
I certainly did get Peter Rule's birth date wrong he was born in 1744.
Regards
Christine
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Hi Peter
I have managed to get Parish birth records for John Rule b.1822 s/o John Rule & Grace (who married in 1841 a Grace Hocking b.1823). Some how I don't think my John Rule's mother is Grace Bray as you have her son John being born 1811.
Regards
Christine
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Hi Christine,
What about
John RULE = Grace SAMPSON 9 May 1812 in Illogan.
Grace aged 45 is at Tuckingmill in 1841 with her children (John aged 18 being the oldest listed - he is a miner -youngest child is only 4)
HO107/142/6 Folio 38 Page 17
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,144624.0.html
Cheers Kris :)
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Hi again Christine,
I was following up on John RULE and Grace SAMPSON's family, but while looking at the census I have just noticed a family who look to be yours living in Camborne in 1851 with a son Joseph aged 1 but this doesn't look to be the John and Grace HOCKING you mention, as this couple have older (pre 1841) children and this John was born about 1811. This John and Grace are married by 1841 and living in Camborne in the1841 census with their older children. Can you please elaborate a bit on this? Perhaps your family had already left Cornwall by 1851 and it is just a coincidence that this couple also had a son Joseph in 1850. ???
Looking at the Camborne site re this particular John and Grace I note at the baptism of his firstborn father was listed as John RULE Jnr.
Marriage Lists John RULE Jnr = Grace HOCKIN 9 Jul 1833 Camborne
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~camborneopc/
Now this John RULE does look like he may be the son of John RULE and Grace BRAY baptised Illogan 21 Jul 1811
Now if you have proved that the John RULE who married in 1841 did in fact marry Grace HOCKING we have 2 John RULES who married Grace HOCKIN/G's 8 years apart.
How have you established that your John was born in 1822? Where was Joseph born in 1850? Is your family in Cornwall in 1851?
Cheers Kris :)
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Hi Kris
My gt gfather Joseph Rule b.1850 married Ellen Reed in 1898 and on their marriage certificate his parents were John Rule & Grace Hocking.
John Rule m Grace Hocking 1841 and on their marriage cert it was noted they were both minors so I subtracted 18yrs off 1841 giving me an approx year of birth as 1823. FindMyPast Parish Records gave me a birth for John Rule as 3.2.1822 son of John Rule & Grace.
I have since looked on a few Rule Family Trees for any clues and a Grace Sampson appeared so I looked up marriages for a Grace Sampson and one matched marrying a John Rule on 9/5/1812.
I am still unable to find a Joseph born 1850 in the census matching correct parents birth years.
Regards
Christine
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Hi Kris
Also under Ancestry.com.au in one of the Rule Family Trees I found a baptism record for a John Rule son of John Rule, miner and Grace Sampson of Tolvaden Downs, Cornwall born 3/2/1822.
Regards
Christine
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Hi Christine,
I am not disputing there is a baptism for this John born in 1822. I am just not convinced at this stage that he is "your John". This John is with his mother Grace and younger siblings in 1841.
I looked for Joseph and found
1851
HO107/1916 Folio 136 Page 14
Adelaide St
Camborne
RULE John 40 b Camborne Copper Miner
RULE Grace 38 b Illogan
RULE James 17 Son b Camborne Copper Miner
RULE Louesia Dau 12 b Camborne
RULE Eliza J dau 11 b Camborne
RULE John Son 8 b Camborne
RULE Charlotte Dau 5 b Camborne
RULE William H Son 3 b Camborne
RULE Joseph Son 1 b Camborne
Joseph is with his mother and some siblings in 1861stillin Adelaide Street
I just wonder if you are looking at the right marriage for Josephs parents
This is John RULE =Grace HOCKIN 9 Jul 1833 Camborne
They have a 1 year old son Joseph in 1851
in 1841 this couple are married with 3 children.
There doesn't seem to be another John and Grace with a son Joseph in 1851 or 1861 to fit
We have 2 couples named John RULE and Grace HOCKIN/HOCKING. It looks to me as if your Joseph was the son of the older couple who married in 1833
Cheers Kris :)
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Hi Kris
If in the 1851 Census this John was 46 and Grace 38 they were born around 1805 & 1813 but the marriage marriage cert I have has them being born in the 1820's so this John and Grace are too old.
My Joseph could have been born in 1949 as I have found a birth for a Joseph Rule, Redruth 1849 and nothing in 1850.
Regards
Christine
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Hi Kris
Where did you find the 1833 marriage? I have just looked in FindMyPast and the free bmd but nothing comes up for me.
Regards
Christine
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Hi Chistine,
Sorry, but my point is - it doesn't matter how old John and Grace are as the 1841 marriage was not your John and Grace. Just coincidental that 2 John RULE's = Grace HOCKIN/HOCKING's. Your John and Grace HOCKIN married in 1833.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~camborneopc/
Cheers Kris :)
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Hi Kris
Yes I too thought the older John & Grace were my family until the only marriage cert I can find through me.
Regards
Christine
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There is no marriage Certificate as such for the 1833 marriage. This is before civil registration began in July 1837. Prior to that time there was only the entry in the parish records.(fathers not listed - though this one lists John as John Jnr.)
Cheers Kris :)
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Hi Kris
Thanks very much for all your help yesterday. As you are probably aware by now I am new at genealogy and all the tips I am given are gratefully received.
Regards
Christine.
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Hi Peter and Darren
I have been given some information from the Illogan Parish Records and in it is the following
Baptisms Illogan on LDS Film1849636, transcriptions by W. L. Bawden:
. 196? Caroline Illegittimate of Elizabeth Retallick reputed father John Rule, Camborne Church Town, Mine Captain altered this 22 of July in presence of the mother by me Liv Booth--20July1817
Hopefully this may be of some help to you.
Christine J
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Hello I have been reading through this information about the Rule Family from Cornwall. I am interested in this family of John Rule and Grace Hocking as they came out to New Zealand 1856 from Australia as a son Edward was born there 18 Jan 1856 and the family left there on the ship "Grafton" 5 July 1856 and arrived in Auckland 1856 with three children Edward, Mary and John who was 12 and he married a Mary Ann Menzies. Now John and Grace both died in Auckland and buried in the Symonds Street Cemetery in Auckland John died 29 Jan 1859 aged 38 yrs and Grace died 22 Oct 1906. Now after John Rule died Grace married twice more once to James Chapman and he died 21 June 1870 and also buried in the same cemetery. Then she married John Cox but I cannot find anything about him when Grace married him or when he died as she was a widow when she died. Now in the cemetery information from the Auckland City Library Grace was born 2 Jan 1824 in Cornwall and been living here for 50 yrs . Now i would be interested to know whether this couple had other children besides John, Mary, who was Three and Edward aged one . On Grace death certificate there was very little information it mentioned her father was Thomas Hocking he was a miner no mother names was mentioned Grace was 18 yrs old when she married John Rule and she was 82 yrs old when died . Now if this Grace Rule nee Hocking is connected to any one Please let me know Thank you Joyce Baber
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Hi Joyce
Your John Rule and Grace Hocking are another couple not related to my family but I do have the following information for you. John & Grace M1841 Illogan and migrated to Sth Australia in 1846, fled to the gold fields in Victoria when gold was found there. They sailed to NZ when their son was three months old. In NZ they were in the hotel trade. John dying in1859. Grace remarried five times and was a widow each time she remarried, still being in the hotel trade. She died in 1906. Only two of all of her children survived her, two sons, Edward & John. If you want to know any more about this family contact a Cheryl Walpole Email address removed by Moderator to stop spamming, please use the personnal message system to exchanger private information who has been very helpful with info in the past.
JollyMe
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Thank you for replying about John Rule and Grace Hocking . Yes I knew she had married about three times but not five times so that is interesting . I think one of her husbands was Thomas Eales or similar as I was able to receive her married certificate from the NZ Society of Genealogists. Yes Edward was born in Australia as I have also his death certificate from the Society and his daughter gave the information on the sheet . Yes I would like some more information please as I am also interested in one of her husbands who was John Cox thenname she died under. There is also some information about her on Papers Past her son Edward and Granddaughter were contesting her will . I must let Roots Chat know of my change of email which I forgot to give them Thank you Joyce
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Hi joyce baber
My name is Cheryl Walpole and I have quite a lot of info on John Rule and Grace Hocking who immigrated to Australia and then to New Zealand they were my great great grandparent. Please get back to me if you require any info. I am also an ancestry member. Regards Cheryl
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Hello Cheryl. Good to hear from you I did receive your earlier message but I am not sure whether I copied your email address down right.Could you sent it again please sorry about this I am also on Ancestry Thank you Joyce
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Hi Joyce - messaged you yesterday on login name with my email address but will do so again today. If not my ancestryname is johnwalpole1800 - regards Cheryl
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I have sent another e mail and yet the address you gave me was the same which I sent to you but it was returned so i hope you get it this time.Joyce
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Any RULE researchers seeing this - you might be interested in the following links:
My RULE website
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~peterpjw/FHrule.html (http://members.ozemail.com.au/~peterpjw/FHrule.html)
Rules of Cornwall (and beyond) - Facebook Group (all welcome to join)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/236722413398303/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/236722413398303/)
FamilyTreeDNA project for the surname RULE
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Rule (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Rule)
Cheers
Peter
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;D