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Some Special Interests => One Name Studies => One Name Studies: A to G => Topic started by: Colin Charman on Monday 16 January 06 05:48 GMT (UK)
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Hi, I'm researching the CHARMAN tribe emanating from England to all parts of the world. I have an extensive file of 40,000 Charmans and their close relations and am happy to help anyone with links to the family.
Regards, Colin Charman
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Hi Colin,
I think we have conversed before about an Elizabeth Mary Charman born 21/ 6/ 1856 daughter of John Thomas William Charman who committed suicide. Think you were aware that she married an Alfred Keylougher aka Gare 30/6/1875 St Johns Waterloo Road, Surrey. Alfred was awol from the Army and it appears he and his wife were living at 11 Zoar St , Southwark under the name of Williams. They had a son, Alfred William Standen Williams born 11 Zoar St 23/4/1876 who died 8/4/1880 in the Norwood Industrial School, Lambeth in the name of Alfred Gare. Alfred had returned to his regiment and left the country to fight in the 2nd Anglo Afghanistan War leaving the child in the workhouse. Elizabeth had died on the 2/5/1876 at 11 Zoar St and her death was registered under the name of Elizabeth Mary Williams.
Regards Brian Gare
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Hi again Brian.
thanks for your note. That all fits in with what I had in my file - a lot from you in the first place.
Fascinating that your chap appears to have been awol from the Army, been court martialled, but went on to spend nearly 20 years in the police force.
Regards, Colin Charman
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Hi Colin
I have Chapmans from east Kent that I have traced back to 1811( can't get back any further untill I find the time to check parish chest records as parish BMD records have been dammaged) If you have any info I will gladly pass on what I have.
Regards
Panda
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Did you mean CHAPMANs or CHARMANs?
Regards, Colin Charman
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Hi I cant remember if I have spoken to you before Ive been unwell and its a while since I did any Thing on the Charmans.
My 2x great grand mother was Martha mildred Charman daughter of Kate Charman of Woking ... Kate had two illegitimate children Mary and Martha, she later married a John Histead and had two more children Alfred and Sarah Ann Histead.
Both Sarah and Martha married brothers .
Martha M married Alfred Lee (these were mine) Alfred was from Havant Hampshire
Sarah Ann Edmund Henry Lee. youngest brother to Alfred Lee
I would like to know if you have any thing on Kate Charmans PARENTS AND SIBLINGS PLEASE ?
known parent Henry Charman and he was married to a SARAH ???? I am not sure she wasn't his 2nd wife ?
Henry died after the 51 Census for Ripley Sarah Charman 1864
thanks in advance.
MM
Amended Martha Mildred Charman was my Great Grandmother not 2x
her mother was Kate Charman Parents Sarah and Henry Charman. sorry if I confused you .
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Hi, Kate's father was Henry Charman (probably b 1779 Ripley) and her mother Sarah Bagley (possibly 1798 Frensham). They don't appear to have married.
Note the "probably" and "possibly"!! This wasnt a well-recorded family.
Henry's mother was Rebecca Charman (1756 Warnham).
If you drop me a note of your email address I'll open the tree in ancestry for you.
Regards, Colin Charman
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I was wondering if anyone had information about Amelia Emily Jane Lee (my great-great grandmother, born 1849 in Havant, Hampshire)? She married Henry Potter (born 1839, Uphavan, Wiltshire) in 1867. I wondered if she might be the daughter of Thomas Lee (born 1803 in Havant) and Jane (Carter) Lee, born 1812? If so, she would be the sister of Edmund Henry Lee.
I am new to genealogy and would greatly appreciate any information about the Lee or Potter families.
Thank you!
SMP
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Hi,
Amelia Jane Lee (recorded also as Emily) was baptised 29/4/1849 at Havant St Faiths, daughter of Thomas Lee and Jane (nee Carter). There is an Edmond Lee baptised 30/3/1851 same place and parents.
My interest is Alfred Lee who married Martha Mildred Charman.
I'm aware of 11 children for Thomas and Jane.
Regards, Colin Charman
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Thank you Colin!
Is your Alfred Lee a brother to both Edmund and Amelia Jane then?
I have copied information about Thomas Lee (father of Amelia) from the internet, but I can't find anything about Jane Carter except that her father was John Carter. I do not live in England, so do you have any advice about how to proceed from here?
I also can't find any information on the internet about Amelia Lee's husband Henry Potter (born 1839, Uphavon, Hampshire) except that his father was John Potter. Is anyone researching this family?
Thank you again for your help,
SMP
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From 1851/1861 censuses Jane Carter was born around 1811-1812 in Froxfield. There is a baptism in www.familysearch.org for her.
Thomas Lee is trickier as his birth date from the 1851/1861 censuses would be 1801-1803 in Havant. There is a baptism in familysearch but I noted two Thomas Lee's in the 1861 census born in Havant about 1803. Its possible they are teh same person as theres only one in the 1851.
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Hi Colin,
I have a marriage in my family tree, George Charman to Louisa Binfield in Farnham, June 1921. Please do you have any information on this marriage? Louisa Binfield is either the widow of Thomas Binfield (d.1917) or the daughter of Thomas Binfield and Louisa Charlotte (nee Heard) who were my Great Grandparents.
I know my Great Grandmother re-married but cannot be sure how many times or to whom and cannot therefore trace her burial place. I would be grateful of any help, thank you,
Eddie.
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Hi, I found the same marriage too between George Charman and Louisa Binfield Jun q 1921 Farnham. I haven't looked up details of that one so far, and I can't presently identify that George Charman.
There is also a marriage between Louisa Charman and Henry Edwin Harding 25/6/1940 in West Grinstead. The PR entry says Louisa was age 62, widow, and her father was William Stewart Heard (dec), Labourer. Henry Edwin was age 72, widower, gardener and his father was Allen Harding (dec), Carman. That makes him Henry Edwin Harding baptised 13/9/1867 in Warnham.
In 1911 Louisa gives her age as 31, so she must have been born about 1878-1880, and her parents must be William Stewart Heard and Elizabeth Ellis who married Mar q 1880 in Elham RD. Theres no obvious birth registration for Louisa as HEARD but I suspect there may be one somewhere as ELLIS. It doesnt help that I couldnt find William Stewart Heard and his family in 1881/1891, nor could I find Louisa in 1901. I only looked at the 1911 census index so I don't know where it says she was born. If you look it up, please let me know.
William Edwin Hardings death appears to be registered Mar q 1955 in Worthing, aged 87. I couldnt see an obvious death registration for Louisa Harding, but she could be 1Q1968 horsham age 86 (Ref: 5h/978) or 3Q1940 Brighton age 62 (Ref: 2b/658).
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Hello Colin
Do you know if the William Charman who died in Epsom, Surrey, in 1818 aged 76, is the William baptised in Warnham, Sussex in 1742, son of Daniel and Jude? He had a wife Ann and 11 children in Epsom from about 1770
Brian (Epsom)
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Also, do you have any views on whether the John Jarman who had a wife Elizabeth and 8 children from 1725 onwards in Ashtead, Surrey, (next to Epsom), could be a Charman?
Brian
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Hello Brian
I had discounted the William Charman b 1742 (s/o Daniel & Jude) as being the William that married Ann Ward 16/3/1769 but now I'm not quite so sure.
Heres why I discvounted the possibility: Daniel & Jude had 10 childrenn baptised alogether including a William on 21/5/1742 and another William 12/4/1761 - both in Warnham. On the face of it, that would imply that the first William had died before 1761.
BUT, Ive not found a death/burial anywhere that looks convingly like the first William - except possibly an unidentified one in portsmouth in 1760. And, Daniel & Judes children baptised before after William2 are Francis 26/11/1758, Mary 3/12/1760, Shelah 7/11/1762 and Henry 26/8/1764. So for a family that seems to have children every 2 years Williams baptism 12/4/1761 is out of place, and only 5 months after Mary. So I'm just wondering out loud if they felt the need to have William baptised a second time - either because they forgot his baptism as an infant, or for some other reason (eg the first baptism was only 4 months after Daniel & Jude married.
Ive not come across Daniels will (nor any record of Jude/Judiths death) - a will might have proved very useful as Daniel survived until 1800 and might have mentioned William.
I looked at Williams possible siblings and I don't see any of them marrying in Epsom - but his brother Richard may have been the unidentified Richard who married Rebecca Worsfold in Epsom in 1776.
The William who married Ann Ward did leave a will when he died in 1818 but that didnt yield any clues. Ive attached my attempt at a transcript if you want to take a look.
So, the conclusion - its at least a possibility but needs more work!
I see youve left another note - I'll look at that next.
Regards, Colin Charman
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Re John Jarman in Ashtead
Ive never looked at the possibility that John JARMAN was really a John CHARMAN. There does seem to be a history of JARMANs in the area. Did you look for his baptism as JARMAN (or GARMAN?).
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Hello Colin
Thanks for your reply. I already have William's will. I was not however aware of William's marriage to Ann Ward in 1769. Where did this take place? It fits nicely with what I have. The Epsom William married twice - 1st to Ann Ward? who was buried in Epsom in 1802 aged 57, and then later in 1802 in London to Ann Young who was buried in Epsom in 1818 aged 78. William's eldest son John was buried in Epsom in 1819 aged 49 (I have his will). He was not bapt in Epsom and is probably the John bapt 1770 in Great Bookham, son of William and Ann.
William of Epsom had a son Francis (will dated 1846) and a grandson Francis, and the William of Warnham had a brother Francis, so I am still wondering whether they are one and the same.
Brian
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Hi Colin .
Do you have anything on Mary Charman Illegitimate sister to Martha Mildred Charman I seem to think she married a person Called Thorn BUT Seems to have gone AWOL after it
Both Daughters to Kate Charman........
Marys father believed to be HENRY Burchett.. as the banns were read in Send Church three times but the marriage never took place I wonder why ?
Regards Mary nee Lee g grand daughter of Martha Mildred Charman later Lee.
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Brian, the William Charman marriage to Ann Ward was 16/3/1769 at St George's Beckenham.
I did spot the name "Francis" being used and wondered about that. William & Anns son Francis Thomas Charman (17/3/1779 Epsom) heads the family of butchers in Ewell. I have that Francis Thomas Charmans will, and John Charmans 1819 will.
I had assumed for no particularly good reason that the William Charman who married Ann Young 5/5/1802 at st Michael Bassishaw was William 's son William (1773 Epsom) - although that William must have died before 1818 as he isnt mentioned in William snrs will. I can see your logic in William re-marrying but I need a bit of help.
Theres a burial 18/9/1801 of Mrs Mary Charman in Epsom - at least thats how I noted it some years ago. Ive never been able to identify that "Mrs Mary". Ive not noted an Ann Charmans burial in 1802 so I'm wondering if this is the burial that you mention for Ann nee Ward? Did I misread the PR?
And yes, I think we can assume that John baptised in Gt Bookham is indeed the son of William & Ann - but beware that theres also an Ann baptised in Gt Bookham 7/7/1771 and another baptised in Epsom 11/1/1775.
Colin Charman
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Hello Colin
The burial entry for St Michael Bassishaw 1802 reads William Charman of Epsom, widower, and Ann Young OTP widow.
The burial entry for Mrs Mary Charman for Sep 1801 (no day shown) appears to be an error. The following M.I. is in the churchyard at Epsom: Ann Charman wife of William who died 9 Sep 1801 aged 57. Also William Charman who died 16 Oct 1818 aged 76.
Several of their children also have M.I.s, but I cannot identify the following: Elizabeth wife of William Charman who died 7 Aug 1846 aged 38.
Brian
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Marriage entry for St Michael Bassishaw
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The 1846 burial is Elizabeth (nee Frith) bap 18/10/1807 Ewell d/o Thomas Frith and Mary (nee Wiltshire).
Elizabeth Frith was the first wife of William Charman bap 11/2/1821 Dorking St Martins, s/o Edward Charman and Susannah (nee Stillwell). William married Elizabeth Frith 8/12/1844 Bow St Mary. William re-married twice and was buried 29/1/1903 at Epsom, aged 83. He was a watchmaker in Epsom high Street.
William (1821 watchmaker) would be the 2nd cousin 3 x removed of William (1742) if the latter was indeed the son of Daniel & Jude.
I just wish there wasnt that pesky 1761 baptism of William in Warnham - that would make life so much simpler!
Ive not walked Epsom churchyard looking at MIs - are they all in one area (if so where?) or have you access to a list of them?
I'd really like to turn up burials for William (1742)'s possible brother Richard Charman (1749) who married Rebecca Worsfold 22/9/1776 at Epsom (St Martin?) - they had children John (c 4/10/1778), Ann (c 11/2/1780) and Jane (c 14/7/1782) all bap at Epsom St Martin. Richard might be buried back at Warnham (7/5/1786 or 3/9/1788) but I haven't found a burial or re-marriage for Rebecca.
Colin Charman
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Just some information on William Stewart Heard and his wife Elizabeth, in 1901 they were living in Hale, Farnham Rural, Hale, Surrey, England. From the Chelse Soldiers Records, Williams DOB is: 1857 Born in Parish of birth: BallymoneyTown of birth: Ballymoney County of birth: Antrimnt.
Hope this adds a bit more the the tale for you.
Hi, I found the same marriage too between George Charman and Louisa Binfield Jun q 1921 Farnham. I haven't looked up details of that one so far, and I can't presently identify that George Charman.
There is also a marriage between Louisa Charman and Henry Edwin Harding 25/6/1940 in West Grinstead. The PR entry says Louisa was age 62, widow, and her father was William Stewart Heard (dec), Labourer. Henry Edwin was age 72, widower, gardener and his father was Allen Harding (dec), Carman. That makes him Henry Edwin Harding baptised 13/9/1867 in Warnham.
In 1911 Louisa gives her age as 31, so she must have been born about 1878-1880, and her parents must be William Stewart Heard and Elizabeth Ellis who married Mar q 1880 in Elham RD. Theres no obvious birth registration for Louisa as HEARD but I suspect there may be one somewhere as ELLIS. It doesnt help that I couldnt find William Stewart Heard and his family in 1881/1891, nor could I find Louisa in 1901. I only looked at the 1911 census index so I don't know where it says she was born. If you look it up, please let me know.
William Edwin Hardings death appears to be registered Mar q 1955 in Worthing, aged 87. I couldnt see an obvious death registration for Louisa Harding, but she could be 1Q1968 horsham age 86 (Ref: 5h/978) or 3Q1940 Brighton age 62 (Ref: 2b/658).
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Hi Colin,
I have/had an uncle named George Charman, previously married to Marjorie Charman and residing at Hartfield Avenue in Brighton. George would be in his 70's now. George also had a nephew named Colin, but I am unsure of his sirname.
Any information would be greatly appreciated!
Cathy
Ontario, Canada
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Hello Cathy,
according to records, I'm afraid George died in 2003 in Peterborough and Marjorie had died in 1991 in Brighton.
The records show that his sister Betty married Charles (Tony) Lemmon and they had 3 children including a son Colin.
I did speak to a niece Marjorie (daughter of George's sister Marjorie and Charles Peters) some time ago. I'll see if I can work out how to send her phone number to you.
Regards, Colin Charman
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Hi Colin,
Thanks for your speedy reply. I was sad to hear that George has passed away, but I haven't seen or spoken to him in many years.
Your information is correct. Marjorie did pass away in Brighton in 1991. She was my aunt on my mother's side. Marjorie had a blood related nephew named Colin (a different Colin than you spoke of).
Do you only research the last name "Charman" or do you have access to other information?
SHORT FAMILY TREE:
Elsie Nichols - Mother (Brighton)
3 Daughters - Pamela, Marjorie & Dorothy
(Dorothy had the son named Colin ... sorry I don't even know his last name)
Both Dorothy & Majorie have passed away. My mother is Pamela. My mom married Peter Tait, also from England.
I am trying to locate Colin as he is my only cousin.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Cathy Tait
Ontario, Canada
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Hi
I did a bit of sleuth work and figured out that your GF was William W Nicholls born around 1893, and your mother Elsie May Gilbey (1901) - that led me in turn to Dorothy and Pamelas births.
Then I went looking for a Colin born in Brighton with mothers name Nicholls - on the big assumption that Dorothy married and lived in Brighton. I found Dorothy M Nicholls married Thomas G Smith 1945, and they had a son Colin M Smith registered March qtr 1949 in Brighton (so he could have been born Nov/Dec 1948).
Then to GenesReunited, where there is an Amy Smith with Colin Smith in their tree born 1948 in Brighton. I've sent them a message asking for her or Colins contact details. They may be the one in 8 that responds so don't build up your hopes!!!
With a name like Smith it could take a bit of doing. I don't mind a small excursion away from Charmans, but Smiths could be a bridge too far.
Could you send me a "personal message" with your email address please (I don't think they like email addresses in postings in Rootschat). I think you click my icon beside this message and it offers that option.
Regards, Colin Charman
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Colin,
I wonder whether you've got a Shele/Shelah Charman (born c.1705) in your records who married a Mary Lesseter and had a son called Richard baptised in Slinfold, West Sussex, in 1744?
If so, I'd be interested anything more about them, but particularly whether Shelah appears to be a family name, or whether there's likely to be a Jewish connection?
Many thanks.
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Yes, Shelah Charman (1705, Slinfold/Warnham) is in my file - he was the son of John Charman and Sarah (nee Stanford). The name is used a couple of generations later with a Shelah born in 1762 to Daniel Charman and Judith (nee Bennett). My computer tells me these two Shelahs were 3rd cousins, 3 times removed - a bit of a stretch for the naming conventions that people used, so maybe there was a closer cousin that carried the name.
I had a quick look at the use of the name Shelah (etc) in the parishes around Warnham where my ancestors came from (unfortunately I don't have the Slinfold PR but I do have a lot of the others (Horsham, Rusper, Rudgwick, Itchingfield, Billingshurst, etc). There is only one use of the name Shelah in those parishes in the period 1705-1762 - its Shelah Gibson baptised 28/4/1732 in Rudgwick, s/o Joseph. I'll have to have a closer look at him to see if I can find a link.
Outside of the Warnham area, theres Shelah Pratt in 1776 in South Bersted - he's the grandson of the 1705 Shelah Charman.
Then we come to Shelah Wales born 1792 in Rusper - who incidentally married Elizabeth Charman. This Shelah Wales is the son of Robert Wales and Sarah (nee Shaw). I couldn't see how that one occured, buty I did find a burial of Shelah Shaw in Charlwood in 1777 aged 74 so he may have been the grandfather of Sarah Shaw. Another one to check!
And thats about all there are in the Sussex/Surrey area where my ancestors lived - and there seem to be precious few elsewhere in the country.
It is biblical in origin, but not limited to Jewish families as far as I can tell. There are no particularly "biblical" names amongst Shelah Charman (1705)'s ancestors between about 1550 and 1705.
And thats about it for the name Shelah.
I have the Charman tree in Ancestry and GenesReunited. If you let me have your email address through a private message, I'll set you up as a guest in Ancestry.
Regards, Colin Charman
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Great, thanks Colin. Will do!
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Hello Colin.
Please, have you any info. on an - A W Charman? the only info I can give you is
that in 1916 he was in the army (Royal West Kents. No. 3363) & was at the
time stationed/living in Tonbridge.
Kind regards.
Brian W
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Hi
I don't have all the Army numbers for WW1 as many records were destroyed - so I don't recognise 3363.
I have an Arthur William Charman born 1868 who married in Tonbridge Reg District in 1893 to Agnes Sarah Wallis but he emigrated to Canada in 1893/1894. There, they had several children including an Arthur William Charman born 1898. Its possible that he returned to UK during WW1, then went back to Canada where he married and had at least two children.
Aside from the above, I have two Alfred Ws and 3 Arthur Ws who would have been about the right age to be in the army for WW1.
Any clues about his likely age at the time?
If you send me a personal message via this site, giving me your email address, I'll invite you as a guest to my tree in ancestry.
Regards, Colin Charman
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Colin.
Thank you for your quick response & info; no, I haven't a clue re. the age of A.W.
My address is bdotwatkinsone at ntlworlddot com
Thanks again
BrianW
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Hello Colin,
I have a Winifred May EDNEY who married Samuel Ernest Mitchell CHARMAN in 1915 in Steyning District, Sussex. He was killed on 30 Jun 1916 in France. I am trying to determine if Winifred remarried after Samuel's death. Would you have this information? I found them on the public member trees on Ancestry.com, but the tree is no longer available. The search results entry indicates they were married on 17 Nov 1915 in Coombes, Sussex, and that she was born on 11 Oct 1892. Any help you can give me with this couple would be appreciated. Thanks.
Robert
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Hi Robert
I found Winifred Edney's death (as Winifred Charman) in Dec qtr 1976 in Chichester Reg District - this gave the dob 11 Oct 1891, which we know to be a year out. My friend John Charman found her burial at Storrington 25 Oct 1976.
There were no children registered as Charman with mothers maiden name Edney, and none registered as Edney with mmn Edney just before the marriage.
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Colin,
Thank you very much for the reply and information.
Robert
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Hi Colin, Did you ever find more info. as to what happened to Annie Lewis Charman/Harding/Buffy.
According to son Laurence on his Marr Cert. he put her as Nancy Lawrence and was deceased in 1937.
Was this her "Stage-name"?. Best wishes, Syljun
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Hi again
no further progress from me, but well done for finding the sons marriage cert. I just had a look for deaths of Nancy Lawrenc and Annie L Lawrence to no avail.
Did we ever eliminate the death in 1931 of Annie L Harding, age 44 in Brentford?
Could I have a copy of teh sons cert please?
Regards, Colin Charman
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Hi Colin, did you receive Copy Marr. Certs.
They are copies of photographed copies sent to me by a very kind Australian Researcher Ros who spent time photographing Divorce papers in Archives.
Regards, Syjun
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Hi Colin, Albert James Charman (DoB 31/7/1885 - my Grand Uncle) died of a fractured skull and lacerated brain after falling out of a moving train on 27th February 1922. According to the death certificate an inquest was held on 1st March 1922. Would you know if its possible to get a copy of the inquest report? Regards Peter Charman
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Hi Peter
I found an FAQ that suggests that you have a right to looks at the report - but it needs a bit more research to find out how and what it might cost. see http://www.coronerscourtssupportservice.org.uk/faq-s/#34
I had a look at Access-to-Archives http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/coroners-inquests.htm. It looks like inquest reports might be held locally.
Perhaps a phone call to the coroners court for the area where he died might point you in the right diercetion. As he died at Lancing or Portslade, it might be best to start in Brighton.
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Hi Colin, did you make any headway with the French Connection as to Annie Charman. Son Jean Edmund Buffy married 1943 at Lot et Garonne . Stated Edmund Francis Buffy (Father) Farmer at Lafitte Sur Lot. Mum Annie Charman deceased. Would love to know when Annie died but difficult to obtain French info. Syljun
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Hi, no further forward on Annie, I'm afraid. I still wonder if she's the Annie L Harding who died in 1931 in Brentford - but theres no probate record for her
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Thanks Colin, I spoke to the Coroners Office in Brighton and they are helping me track down the inquest report. I also intend to pop down to Brighton in the next few weeks to hunt down any newspaper reports of grand Uncle Alberts death!
Peter
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Hi again Colin, Albert James Charman has his father listed as Henry Charman on the death certificate. Henry Charman's occupation is down as Miller but doesn't say where. I'm intrigued because I am lead to believe that a Miller was quite a 'good' occupation and yet I can't see any other strands of the familiy that weren't either Ag Labs or soldiers! Any clues in your files?
Peter
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Hi again. Albert James Charmans father was Henry Clear Charman, born 1858 in Worth, and his mother was Lucy Gorringe born 1854 in Preston, Brighton.
From at least 1883, Henry Clear Charman was a railway porter on the LBSCR, then from 1911 he's a miller (The 1911 census says Miller - Steam Flour Mill).
That Henry Clear Charmans father was another of the same name born 1834 in Billingshurst - he's variously listed as an ag lab, gardener, milkman, and domestic groom.
If you send me a private message giving me your email address, I'll set you up as a guest to my tree in ancestry (rootschat discourages putting email addresses in postings).
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Hello, I am researching the Potter Lee family for their great grandson. Would you like to share information? Thanks, regards, Sandra
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Hello deoxy
I have about 140 Potters and 140 Lees in my tree. I'm not sure how I can help you.
If you send me a private message with your emaill address, I'll set you up as a guest in ancestry.
Regards, Colin Charman
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Thanks Colin. :)
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Dear Colin A few years ago a Colin Charman helped me to find my grandfather Samuel David Charmans daughter teresa (also had a sister called Pamela). Was this you by any chance?
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Yes, thats me.
I have a feeling that the moderators here dont like email addresses included in posts but I think theres a way of sending a personal message somehow. If you can figure it out - or if you still have my address - please drop me a note
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Here goes lol Clare . Hunter@ hotmail . Co . Uk all lower case
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I have an Afghanistan 1880 medal to John charman
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Hi,
I'm trying to put together a tree back from Samuel Charman of Warnham, Sx, who was born c1750, and who married Sarah Charman d.o. Edward Charman also of Warnham. Samuel's father appears to have been a Charles Charman, but internet information is sketchy and contradictory. can you help please.
Many thanks
Lincsmaster
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Hi, you're quite right - it is sketchy and contradictory. I've been building the Charman tribes family tree (all of it) for 20 years now and this is what I have:
Sarah Charman was baptised 11/11/1757 Warnham daughter of Edward Charman & Ann (possiby Ann Styant). Edward was my GGGGFfather, a yeoman farmer and very well off. His will makes specific provision for looking after Sarah if her husband Samuel is unable to support her. So, I have to guess that Samuels family were not well off. Sarah died some time after 1788 (her last child) - possibly buried 24/10/1809 Warnham.
Samuel Charman was bap 26/12/1850 and buried 12/11/1831 Warnham. He was the son of Charles Charman & Mary (nee Knight) married 20/4/1742 Warnham. Note that this couple had a son Charles (27/2/1744) who married Sarah Knight - not sure how she is related to Mary Knight although Ive traced her a few generations.
Charles Charman was probably born somewhere around 1720 and buried 10/6/1792 Warnham. Mary (nee Knight) was probably bap 10/7/1718 Slinfold and died some time after 1762 - there are several burials to choose from.
I have not found a baptism that appears to be this Charles Charman (born around 1720) - in fact I can't find any baptism of a Charles Charman anywhere in England before 1744 apart from one born 1681 in Arundel who died in 1691. But that doesnt mean there weren't any!
There was a Charles Charman recorded as having a son Edward in Birmingham in 1694, another having a daughter Ann in Aldgate in 1712, and yet another who seems to have married at least twice - to Ann Aylward (1763 Horsham) and Mary Muggeridge (1773 Ifield). This Charles appears to be buried 14/1/1790 in Ifield (no age given) and his wives Ann and Mary died 1771 and 1774 respectively. Theres a burial of a Sarah Charman 11/4/1790 Ifield who may be a third wife.
So who the heck were all these Charles Charmans? I don't know, but I wonder if the absence of baptisms might be explained by King Charles II (1630-1685) not being a very popular chap in some quarters - those were sensitive times.
Could our Charles Charman (about 1720) have been born as Charles under another surname? Well, there are only four baptisms in Warnham of Charles xxxx before Charles Charman in 1744. They were Charles Tanner (1625), Charles Tovee/Tovey (1719), Charles Butcher (1720) and Charles Mose/Moase (1732). Note the gap between 1625 and 1719 - the period King Charles I and II.
I have eliminated Charles Tovey (1719) - he seems to have married in Horsham 1739 and raised a family until he died in 1781. I haven't looked at Charles Butcher - perhaps his mother re-married or went to live with a Charman (no record of that), but there are possible Charman family links to a Butcher family from Rudgwick/Slinfold, their son Thomas Butcher may be Charles Butchers father. Needs a bit more time.
Other possibilities for Charles Charman (abt 1720):
Perhaps he was born in the area surrounding Warnham, under some other surname. I haven't looked at this.
Perhaps he was born in Warnham with another firstname and adopted the name Charles at some time in his life.
Perhaps he just wasn't baptised at all - I reckon about 2-5% were not baptised for whatever reason.
Its notable that Charles etc were a poor-ish family - no wills or property that I've found.
If you want to do some real research to fill in a few gaps, you could find out where the Charles Charmans lie in Warnham graveyard. There are no stones surviving, but I believe there may be a burial plan in the hands of the local vicar - the Rev Loveless (!!)
I have all this in a tree in ancestry - with more notes, deductions and possibilities. You're welcome to take a look.
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Hi Colin,
Thank you very much for taking the time to give me such a detailed response. I will try and do your sterling efforts justice by providing some useful input. Edward is one of my 5x GGparents, through Samuel, his son Michael and then Michael's daughter Lucy. Like you I have been at this game for a long time, but on this line, have been stuck at Lucy for many, many years because I did not have her baptism. Later census entries give her place of birth as Warnham, but there is no baptism in the PR. Most of Michael's other children were baptised in Warnham, but not Lucy. Recently however, I came across a reference to a Lucy Charman , d.o. Michael, baptised in Poynings in Nov 1811, which I'm hoping will be the entry I was looking for. Yes, Samuel was obviously the poor relation, but Edward allowed his daughter to marry her love, and even provided the house for them to live in. A nice story.
Yes, I will certainly follow up the churchyard plan reference - Edward must certainly have had a headstone at some time. You almost certainly will have this reference but I will mention it just in case - Diocese and Archdeaconry of Chichester, Deposition Books, Jan 1617 - Mar 1626, a John Charman of Warnham, husbandman, was witness to the will of Thomas Borer of Warnham in Dec 1625. The entry tells us that John was born, and had always lived in Warnham, and that he was aged about 46 years ie born c1579 in Warnham. Was he the father of John bc 1608?
More later
Best wishes
Richard
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Hi
I suppose Lucy being baptised in Poynings was something to do with Elizabeth Slaughter coming from that general area, or something to do with Michaels service in the Sussex Militia.
Both Michael and Lucy are very uncommon Charman names so its hard to imagine that theres another at that time.
What exactly does the Poynings PR say? Do you have an image of the page?
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I haven't seen that deposition book - is it accessible at Chichester?
The deduced date of 1579 for that John Charman fits with the son of John Charman and Ann Boorer - presumably Thomas Borer was Ann Borers brother.
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Hi Colin, this is just a "feeler" message to know if I may still question you about my family tree. I'm new at this. Please email me or post a word, thank you in advance Roger C.
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Hi there
I am hoping you can tell me if you have an Edward Charman born to John Charman and Mary Sefton between about 1726 and 1750 please?
John Charman (from Slinfold, Sussex) and Mary Sefton (from Wooton, Surrey) were married in London on 17 May 1726 in St Benet Paul's Wharf, London. Those children of theirs that I could find were born in Slifold, Sussex - but I couldn't find an Edward.
Edward Charman had a son named Sefton in 1770 baptised in Selham so it is very likely his parents were John Charman and Mary Sefton (who also named one of their children Sefton), but I can't find a baptism record for Edward anywhere.
I would very much appreciate your advice please.
Cheers
Therese ::)
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Hi, about Edward Charman b 1730.
After a lot of digging, I concluded that Sefton Charman (bap 1730 Slinfold) was known as Edward Charman for the rest of his life.
I have no evidence for this except that theres no trace of Sefton after his baptism, and there is plenty to confirm that John & Mary had a son known as Edward, who passed his mothers name on to his son Sefton.
John Charman (marr to Mary Sefton) had a brother Edward born in 1702 so its reasonable to think that he may have passed the name onto his son.
John and Mary don't seem to have applied the normal convention for naming their children but they were nodding to it by baptising Sefton. Its a little surprising that all their childrens names came from the Charman side and that they didnt honour Mary Seftons parents Joseph & Abigail.
It would be nice to find some evidence that I have this right but I don't think thats going to happen.
Regards, Colin Charman
(email: colin.charman@gmail.com)
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Hi Colin
Many thanks for taking the time to reply to my question about Edward Charman and apologies for not acknowledging your advice before now. I only just saw the message. ::)
I looked at your tree on Ancestry for Sefton (Edward) Charman b. 1730 and see you have his pedigree as:
Sefton (Edward) Charman
Parents : John Charman and Mary Sefton
Grandparents : John Charman and Sarah Stanford
Great grandparents Francis Charman and Ann Heath
I would like Francis Charman and Ann Heath to be the right couple in this pedigree, however, I'm stuck on proving that Francis Charman is John Charman Snr's father. The reason I'm stuck is that I have 4 different baptism records in Slinfold (plus 2 in nearby Warnham) between 1666 and 1680 for people named John Charman (one of whose father is certainly Francis Charman).
Would you mind sharing with me your reasoning as to why you believe Francis Charman and Ann Heath are the right parents for the John Charman who married Sarah Stanford please.
I am of course happy to send you my spreadsheet with all the BDM details I have located for different John Charmans in Slinfold and nearby.
Kind regards and thank you again for replying so helpfully to my earlier request. :)
Therese
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Hi, I suspect Ive found all the BDMs for those early Charmans, they are all in the profiles in my tree. But I'd be the last to say that everything in my tree is "right" - some of it barely qualifies as "plausible"!! Unfortunately they didn't leave a lot of written evidence behind!
Its about 20 years since I reached the conclusion that John (m Sarah Stanford) was the son of Francis and Ann and I really don't have anything in the way of notes. About all I can say is that theres a thread of being "Yeomen" that comes down from John (about 1550, married to Ann Boorer), through Robert, then Francis and to John and his siblings. But there are other threads of yeomen coming down from John (abt 1550) and indeed his siblings. My GGGGGGGGfather was a John born around 1620-ish, and a Yeoman, and due to the naming convention of the time, every branch of every generation had a John in it, and its practically impossible to distinguish them.
I've generally used two methods to try to sort out who was who. One was wills/land/wealth and the other was naming conventions. Both are hit-and-miss!
With the naming conventions, I can see Francis, John and Robert being passed down as a name in "your" line. In my line, names like Richard, Henry/Harry and John prevail. If you look up the exact details of the convention they don't seem to have followed them rigorously, but its a clue.
I believe that apparent moving between Slinfold and Warnham doesn't mean anyone actually move house. There are a group of farms SW of Warnham associated with some parts of the family that lie on the Slinfold side of the A281 Guildford-Horsham road. They are pretty well on the parish boundary between Slinford and Warnham. Rapkyns is one of them associated with John (m Sarah Stanford) and I left myself a note that it passed from "Robert" (which one) to Johns son John. Another one nearby is Town House farm, which I'm pretty sure I've seen mentioned but can't trace now (I think it was a Thomas or Francis)
While that line of Charmans seems to have concentrated on that area, my own line of Charmans held farms between Warnham and Oakwood Hill on the A29 Bognor Road Its NW of Warnham, whilst the other farms are SW of Warnham. They are only about 2-3 miles apart so its not much to go on.
None of this is enough to prove anything but when I've tried to unscramble these early Charmans, these were my guides.
Regards, Colin Charman