RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: lesley084 on Friday 17 September 04 20:59 BST (UK)
-
Looking for any descendants of walter Amos Turnbull and Janet Kerr amos.
I know they had at least one daughter Margaret, and walter was a joiner.
-
Hi lesley
A long time since you posted, tell me have you any conections with Rutherford's of Bonchester Bridge?
I ask because Rutherford's where Joiners and Blacksmiths in the same small village
Andrew
-
Hi Andrew,
No I am not connected to Rutherfords. The turnbull family I was looking for died out. Walter turnbull was married to Janet Kerr Amos and as far as I'm aware they only had one child Margaret who died during childbirth 1915 as did the child. In actual fact Walter was a joiner in Hobkirk all the same place today but I suppose it could have been different in days gone by. He was still there in 1901.
Have you read the book rule water and it's people ?
I think there are Rutherfords in it.
Happy hunting Lesley
-
Hi - reasonably sure about the Amos connection if this is of any use to you. The Amos family who lived at the Forkins left a number of years ago but had been in the Parish of Hobkirk for generations. They now live around the Hawick area.
-
Hi Lesley
How much earlier have gone with your Turnbulls?
One of the children of Walter (Handless Wat) Wilson, Elizabeth(Betty) Wilson born 16/04/1753, married a George Turnbull.
They had 10 children 4 boys and 6 girls.
Handless Wat was a bit of a Hawick personality.
This is info I have picked up from another researcher and is incidental to my own researches into the Wilson family.
-
Hi StintonLomas and others,
Walter Wilson 1712 - 1995 AKA "Haunless Wat" or "Handless Wat" of Hawick is my G G G G G Grandfather, not just at a guess but through evidence from birth records, marriage records, death records, wills etc etc.
@StintonLomas, I very much liked the comment that he was quite a character or personality in his day.
I also believe that in the Pioneers and Workers Room at the Borders Textile TowerHouse in Hawick, there is a foldable yard stick, or measuring stick on display there, with the inscription "Walter Wilson 1734". His son's did quite well for themselves also and I am now fairly up to speed with them, but I would love to see any further information on "Handless Wat", funny or factual.
I would also like to know more on his parents whom I believe to be John Wilson circa 1685 and Margaret Crow of Branxholme a few miles south west of Hawick.
If you can help in any way, it would be most appreciated. My father who is 80 and some other elderly relatives are enjoying all the history I am digging up for them, and my father (not in good health himself) has been knocked for a 6 after the death of my older brother last week, so I fear he has not long to go. So it would be nice to get as much info as possible for him before he passes to the other side ;-)
Thanks in advance
Brett Wilson
Happy to provide contact details if I am able to do so in this forum or by private message!
-
Brettmaximus........here is a heads up on some fine info regarding,"Haunless Wat",Walter Wilson.
Google..."A Hawick Word" by Douglas Scott...then scroll down to Wulson.
Enjoy the info there.....Cheers
-
Most appreciated, and yes I have already done so before. As well as finding some information in "Hawick and it's People 1938" though I believe more information is available in the 1921 version, but I have not yet got my hands on that.
It's been incredible to get this far, and Walter Wilson 1798-1862 my GGG Grandfather was the hardest connection to place (Haunless Wat's Grandson), he was a cabinet maker at 9 High Street, Hawick. I have nick named him the baby maker rather than the cabinet maker, as he has had at least 3 children with 3 different women that I can find so far. The 1st was my GG Grandfather Wlater Wilson who emigrated to Australia, the Second was a Jessie/Janet Wilson when he was married to a Jessie/Janet Gray, the 3rd was around 1840 another male child who emigrated to New Zealand. And Walter Wilson 1798-1862 was to marry another lady later on who was some 24 years younger than him, a lady by the name of Isabella.
It is mentioned in the records that he was quite well off and able to indulge in may angling expeditions, but I think he was up to a little more than fishing if you get my drift ;-) Walter Wilson 1798-1862 was also the 1820 Cornet for the Common Riding in Hawick, which I may have mentioned earlier.
Regardless of this, I believe his father "Walter Wilson 1770 - 1847" was a Hawick Councillor and a Portrait of him is available in the Hawick Museum.
I found a portrait of a Walter Wilson that was painted in 1755, which may be Haunless Wat? I will try to attach it? And if you look at how it is painted, only one arm is showing and it looks like it face the wrong way? I may be jumping to conclusions here, but it is in deed possible.
I have run into a bit of a brick wall with John Wilson and Margaret Crow who were Haunless Wat's (Walter Wilson 1712 - 1795)'s parents. Other than the fact that John Wilson was a farmer from Branxholme near Hawick, and I guess it would be nice to get to this next generation and see where that leeds.
Haunless Wat was of course the father of the wealthy industrialist "William Wilson 1762-1834" and he was also the grandfather of the Right Honorable "James Wilson 1805-1860" Manufacturer, Member of Parliament and the founder of "The Economist".
Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. I love the Hawick Word Book, it's a fantastic guide and reference, and without it, I would not have got this far.
Thanks Again
Brett Wilson
-
Lesley 084 Here is their headstone in Hobkirk Cemetery. It doesnt show their descendants but if you know them let me know and i will search for them in the above cemetery which is at Bonchester `bridge,
alan
"121 In m e m o r y o f J A N N E T K . A M O S w i fe o f W A L T E R A ."
"TU R N B U L L wh o d i e d a t B o n c h e s t e r B r i d g e 1 9 th June 1896 aged "
"54y r s and t he abov e W A LT E R A MO S TU R N B U L L w h o d i e d 9 th "
"No v e m b e r 1 9 1 6 a g e d 6 6 y r s ."
" "
"87 "
-
Walter was married twice second wife was a janet grieve
walter a t and janet kerr amos were 1st cousins
-
I corrected the death date of Walter Wilson to 1795.. Sorry, I had typed it as 1995 ;-)
Hi StintonLomas and others,
Walter Wilson 1712 - 1795 AKA "Haunless Wat" or "Handless Wat" of Hawick is my G G G G G Grandfather, not just at a guess but through evidence from birth records, marriage records, death records, wills etc etc.
@StintonLomas, I very much liked the comment that he was quite a character or personality in his day.
I also believe that in the Pioneers and Workers Room at the Borders Textile TowerHouse in Hawick, there is a foldable yard stick, or measuring stick on display there, with the inscription "Walter Wilson 1734". His son's did quite well for themselves also and I am now fairly up to speed with them, but I would love to see any further information on "Handless Wat", funny or factual.
I would also like to know more on his parents whom I believe to be John Wilson circa 1685 and Margaret Crow of Branxholme a few miles south west of Hawick.
If you can help in any way, it would be most appreciated. My father who is 80 and some other elderly relatives are enjoying all the history I am digging up for them, and my father (not in good health himself) has been knocked for a 6 after the death of my older brother last week, so I fear he has not long to go. So it would be nice to get as much info as possible for him before he passes to the other side ;-)
Thanks in advance
Brett Wilson
Happy to provide contact details if I am able to do so in this forum or by private message!
-
Please note that Brett Wilson is 100% not related to Walter Wilson born 1798 who only had one female child, Jessie. Brett may be related to the Walter Wilson of 1821 but he is not part of the William Wilson manufacturing family which includes many notable figures, i.e. James Wilson, Founder of the Economist who is my Great, Great, Great, Great Uncle. Brett needs to get his facts and his documents straight before making these incorrect claims.
-
Elsie Marie Wilson,
Not that anyone is reading much here, but stalking and making odd claims is just making you look silly. I forwarded your email to the various folk that manage the historic records in Hawick and they had a bit of a giggle.
You see, I have a family bible from the 1800's, baptism records, interviews from the day... Not to mention DNA matches.. So ... Mmmm... Jessie Wilson is mentioned in the Bible notes too. Not to mention my Great Great Grandfather's letters between he and his father "Walter Wilson 1798-1862" and much much more.
P.S. Did you find out about your Great Uncle? Gordon Cummins.. An interesting cat.
https://www.findersinternational.co.uk Buona Notte
-
Then you won't mind sharing which family member's DNA you match and your valid proof that your Great, Great, Grandfather was related to Walter Wilson of Hawick b. 1798. How do you prove the connection from your Australian Grandfather with the name Wilson to my Walter Wilson of 1798?
Walter Wilson and Jessie Grey only had one child. In fact, there is a big X marked after that on the family tree. What are you claiming exactly and what is your proof, aside from a nice coin?
You see, as you already know Brett Maximutt, unlike you I was born in Scotland and I can prove who all of my ancestors were and how they are related to me with birth certificates, marriage certificates, and death certificates. You know, link after link, connection after direct connection. The way it's supposed to work. You're making quantum leaps from Australia to Scotland out of thin air.
I don't advertise that I am related to famous people, I just am related to famous family members and I don't feel the need to brag about it to everybody I meet. You see, that was one of the clues that gave you away. Nobody in my Wilson Family was a braggard. It just struck me in a strange way that you have blasted the web stating your false connection to James Wilson, Economist repeatedly and because of you, I have researched the family tree and I now know the truth.
The Walter Wilson b. 1798 had one female child, Jessie who married George Hobkirk on 11 Jan 1849 and had no children as per 1921 biography in Charles Wilson’s article in Hawick.
So, the onus is on you to prove who you are. As far as I am concerned you are not a member of the family, no matter how many "friends" you convince in Hawick.
Sorry, go attach yourself to another family with family members who won't catch you in a lie. Go be a Brydon. You probably thought all of James Wilson's relatives were dead and nobody would care. I care and I have found you out. Prove me wrong with documents not BS, I dare you.
Have a nice life, sorry you can't claim you're James' descendant anymore. You had a good run. It's over now. And all your friends now know you are an imposter and that you lied to them. Just imagine for a moment, how hurt I was to find out that you were not who you said you were and that you had absolutely no proof whatsoever of your claim to be related to James Wilson and further, that I had wasted my time. I also shared with you valuable family documents, photos and information that I would otherwise not have given if you had told me the truth from the beginning. You deceived me and others. I was genuinely happy to know you and to know that you were a part of the family. You lied to me and to your contacts in Hawick...and all over the web where you bragged that you were related to James Wilson, Founder of the Economist Magazine and Standard Chartered Bank. You're not!
There were many clues, just so you know. Why is it that you never offered to get me in touch with Tony Wilson who is a close relative of mine? His father was at Pamela's Wedding with my Grandfather, Dennis. They were cousins. Tony Wilson is my real cousin not a fake 6th cousin like you. Why did you never offer me his email? Why didn't you want me to talk to Michael?
As for dear Aunt Marjorie, it never came up. I suppose that was because I was under 9 years old when we used to visit her and her Sister Freda in their West Hempstead home. When my parents and I went up to London to visit she served those little sausage rolls and other mini hors d'oeuvres in her old age. We went up to see her regularly. She also wrote to me frequently as to her many outings with friends to various exhibits and social functions in London. They must not have minded that her husband was a murderer. When she was much older she had trouble with her arm and was bothered by it. She also had an adopted child which she corresponded with.
That said, I guess Gordon's thing was all his and I'm sure she must have distanced herself from him. You never know how people are going to turn out before you're involved with them. If you did, you'd never talk to anybody. There are also people who fake being good when they're not - I'm sure you can relate. How can you really know until you hang around them for a while and then evaluate the hot garbage that comes out of their mouths. But, thanks for smugly delivering the bad news.
I have lovely memories of Aunt Marjorie and she and Freda were wonderful people as was their other Sister, My Grandmother Doris. They all had something that I noticed was missing from my interactions with you, class.
It still doesn't make you a part of the family all because you're researching the Wilson Family to which you do not belong. Feel free to have any of your Hawick friends contact me in your defense. I'd like to have a giggle too.
You're worried aren't you? You're all about the truth remember? If you told the truth, you'd have nothing to worry about. And...I'm sure everybody reads this blog otherwise you wouldn't have responded :-)
P.S. I found John, Michael's Brother and he's still alive. Bye!
-
Baptism (06 April 1823) - Father, Walter Wilson (Hawick) Cabinet Maker ;-) - You will need to navigate this image to see further to the right where it says HAWICK
-
Oh My, and look at the family resemblance coming through from Walter Wilson 1798-1862 down my Wilson line...
-
I must have had a time machine.... My Great Great Grandfather must been forced by me to insribe this in his bible he carried to Australia from Scotland.
-
Oh, and what is this also inscribed in Walter's bible... His sister Jessie who married George Hobkirk ;-)
-
Oh, and you mentioned Charles John Wilson.. A lovely man by all accounts... Oh My.. What is this? He looks like my Great Great Grandfather... Do ya think that's because they are related, or did I just make all this up after spending thousands of hours and many thousands of dollars doing the research, not to mention 3 months in Hawick doing further research... Yeah, I am sure I did it all just to connect myself with a Wilson family from Hawick, Scotland, so I could prove a connection to them... The mind boggles.
-
Hello E.M. Wilson, I see these are your first posts on our website.
We are a friendly group of researchers here at RootsChat, and we do like to keep it that way.
Regards
Sarah
-
Seriously, where is their marriage certificate?
It's not on Scotland's People in the Statutory Registers or the Old Parish Records. They weren't Quakers so they're not to be found in the Quaker records.
Where is your Great, Great Grandfather's name on the passenger list traveling from Scotland to Australia? It's not there, I've already checked. No Walter Wilson was listed as a passenger on the Diadem to Australia. But, it just doesn't matter because...there is no marriage certificate.
I took you at your word when you said you were related to my family. I didn't ask for proof, I just believed you. This is your opportunity to be a person of your word and deliver real proof, like a marriage certificate of my Walter Wilson b. 1798 and Wilhemina Bell.
As stated earlier, Wilhemina Bell is not on the hand-drawn family tree of the late 1800's. There is a big X after Walter and Jessie Grey. So, does this mean that your baptism record shows a child born out of wedlock or that you are confused with another Walter Wilson, Cabinet Maker from Hawick? So, either the child was a bastard or you are again in the wrong Wilson family mistaking one Cabinet Maker for another. Which way is it?
You spent all this time and money researching and you didn't hire a professional geneologist before you claimed to be related to James Wilson, Economist? I figured out that you weren't related relatively quickly and without spending any money. A professional geneologist would come to the same conclusion that I have come to, you are not related to Walter Wilson b. 1798 who was the son of Walter Wilson b. 1770 who was the son of Walter Wilson b. 1712 “Handless Wat” who was the son of John Wilson. Most importantly, you are not related to James Wilson, Economist and Founder of Standard Charted Bank.
-
Well Brett, I must say that this has made for interesting reading, on a Monday morn. :D
May I ask for the details of the arrival to Australia of your Walter?
Also, where he resided, who he married, children and where he died.
What was the name of the child you say went to NZ?
A family bible is generally a good source of information.
Jamjar
-
Hi Jamjar,
Walter was not recorded on the ship, yet he kept a diary or day book entries for every day on the journey in 1852 which we still have. Other notable persons who travelled on the same ship are also recorded as mentioning Walter being on the journey with them.
I am not sure who you mean in relation to N.Z but James Glenny Wilson, later Sir James Glenny Wilson went to New Zealand. James' father George and Walter's father Walter were 1st cousins.
Walter headed to Victoria, Australia for the Gold Rush. He was a master baker by trade, yet oddly enough, his mates in Australia thought he was a carpenter due to his carpentry skills.. I wonder where he learnt those skills from.... Maybe, just maybe, because he grew up at 9 High Street, Hawick with a father and a grandfather who were both carpenters/cabinet makers with their workshop and lumber yard out back ;-)
;) ;)
-
You are not related to Sir James Glenny Wilson either. You keep making these claims and you have no proof.
Your Walter Wilson would have been mentioned in Sir James Glenny Wilson's South Island Journey that he wrote to George Murray Wilson in 1873. Wouldn't he have mentioned that he had a cousin that he was going to swing by and say hello to? They never met because they're not in the same family.
You can't answer the question of the marriage certificate because one does not exist, therefore you do not exist in my family tree.
Aside from not having any valid proof, you are not one of my Wilsons because your line is not mentioned in the family papers - anywhere. All the other branches of the tree are discussed extensively.
There was no baker in the family. Which family are you referring to? Did Walter Wilson, cabinet maker bake pastries too and then teach his imaginary son how to bake? We both know he didn't. We both know that there was no marriage. We both know that there is no connection. You are not related to Sir James Glenny Wilson, M.P. and you are not related to James Wilson, Esq. Founder of the Economist Magazine and Standard Chartered Bank.
Nobody went to Australia. They went to New Zealand and established Ngaio Station in New Zealand.
-
En route to Australia on the ship "Diadem". An extract as transcribed from Walter Wilson's extensive diary, by my great aunt.
July 8, 1852
Still in Plymouth Sound. We are making final arrangements for voyage. Weather quite as warm and sultry as we anticipate meeting with in Australia. Sick at heart wishing to depart, and feel it tiresome in being detained so long.
The passengers in good working order for voyage, as regards berths, Messes, etc. We expect to sail soon. Have addressed letters to my father in Hawick and Mr Lewis Bookseller, John Brydon Merchant, and Andrew Inglis, Mason as the last I will write within sight of my dear Native Land – hence, I take this favourable opportunity of saying a farewell to home and friends, under circumstance so extremely peculiar that I am forced to mark this as an era in my existence rarely met or encountered in the lot of one out of a thousand of my fellow creatures.
If I have acted rashly or injudiciously in any point, I pray god I may be forgiven now, and not carry with me to the land of my intended sojourn, as unrepentant and an unforgiven soul.
9 o’clock, evening. I ask God’s blessing upon our voyage – while the crew weigh anchor to set sail. May our vessel speed, and the wind waft us thither in safety.
My friend and cabin mate, Thomas Wood, from Galashiels, and self, having finished a letter to James Scott of Selkirk to be sent by the owners of the vessel on going ashore – go on deck to join in the cheers given by the passengers at our departure. One cheer more, and we are off upon our deep sea track.
Little regret seems to hang about the hearts of the company, as all and sundry join with their lungs to commemorate the event a loud huzzas that threaten to rend the vessel.
Scarcely a breath of air floats to fill the canvas, and the ship slowly ventures over the barrier of the bay out into the open sea – the calm and placid waters all but asleep under the gaze of a myriad brilliant stars, coquetting upon the brow of every waving ripple that wits upon the advancing steps of our noble barque.
All aboard in good health – except one lady who being announced to be unwell, the company voluntarily left the poop, while nearly all turned in to rest for the night, at 12 o’clock p.m.
-
Whatever...
Which notable people mentioned Walter being on the ship? What are their names?
He wasn't on the passenger list. Are you now saying he was a stowaway? I recall the Australian official at the Victoria records office responding that there was no connection to my Wilson's of Hawick.
Who taught him to be a baker?
Who did he live with in Hawick?
Why isn't his birth certificate on Scotland's People?
And, the basic question which would answer it all Where is the Marriage Certificate between my Walter Wilson b. 1798 and Wilhemina Bell?????????????
-
I honestly have better things to do Elsie Marie... I have mountains of information. Give it a rest, or get your male cousin to take a Y-DNA test ;-) :D
-
Exactly what I thought. You have ougatz, goose eggs, nada, zilch.
You have no proof and you need my cousin to take the Y-DNA test.
I'm glad you admit it.
You have better things to do? Really? Why were you looking up my Aunt Marjorie? Were
you looking up Doris and Freda too? Don't answer me because I really don't care. Whatever
you're trying to accomplish with your kaput geneological research, I guarantee it's not going to happen for you.
Sure. You don't have anything better to do.
-
No, wasn't looking them up... A relative of Gordon Cummins the "Blackout Ripper" approached me via Ancestry... "Peter Wood", I gave him your contact details but he said you never replied to him.
-
Is this his death?:
1903 12848 WILSON Walt parents Wilson Walt and Wmina (Riddings), aged 80
Yes, it is if he married Jane Bryden. His death notice, 2nd column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199641961
Funeral notice, 3rd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199641972
Obit, 5th column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10575448
Jamjar
-
The only possible Walter Wilson that is recorded on Scotland's People that fits in with Walter Wilson's life span is the one born in 1859 and he died at age 9. And that would have meant that his alleged father, died when he was three years old in 1862.
-
Brett you said:
The 1st was my GG Grandfather Wlater Wilson who emigrated to Australia, the Second was a Jessie/Janet Wilson when he was married to a Jessie/Janet Gray, the 3rd was around 1840 another male child who emigrated to New Zealand.
Jamjar
-
Peter Wood never contacted me.
If this is true, then give me Peter Wood's contact information. You can email it to me, you know my email.
-
He here in June 1853, 3rd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article4793225
If he sailed in 1852, you should find him on the Scots 1841 and 1851 censuses.
Jamjar
-
Chaps in the diary mentioned here, bottom 2nd last column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article4793047
Jamjar
-
Hi E.M.,
I think that you may not be aware that you are in a public forum, readily found via google and read without any need to log in.
Seriously, where is their marriage certificate?
It's not on Scotland's People in the Statutory Registers or the Old Parish Records. They weren't Quakers so they're not to be found in the Quaker records.
Where is your Great, Great Grandfather's name on the passenger list traveling from Scotland to Australia? It's not there, I've already checked. No Walter Wilson was listed as a passenger on the Diadem to Australia. But, it just doesn't matter because...there is no marriage certificate.
I took you at your word when you said you were related to my family. I didn't ask for proof, I just believed you. This is your opportunity to be a person of your word and deliver real proof, like a marriage certificate of my Walter Wilson b. 1798 and Wilhemina Bell.
As stated earlier, Wilhemina Bell is not on the hand-drawn family tree of the late 1800's. There is a big X after Walter and Jessie Grey. So, does this mean that your baptism record shows a child born out of wedlock or that you are confused with another Walter Wilson, Cabinet Maker from Hawick? So, either the child was a bastard or you are again in the wrong Wilson family mistaking one Cabinet Maker for another. Which way is it?
You spent all this time and money researching and you didn't hire a professional geneologist before you claimed to be related to James Wilson, Economist? I figured out that you weren't related relatively quickly and without spending any money. A professional geneologist would come to the same conclusion that I have come to, you are not related to Walter Wilson b. 1798 who was the son of Walter Wilson b. 1770 who was the son of Walter Wilson b. 1712 “Handless Wat” who was the son of John Wilson. Most importantly, you are not related to James Wilson, Economist and Founder of Standard Charted Bank.
Also, :) I am sure you will agree that Family history is not ever an exact science, and whether the researcher is a professional genealogist or has conducted their own research using their own resources makes no difference when searching for passenger lists into any of the British Colonies, particularly in the 1800s.
May I please suggest that you consider that in Australia most family history buffs as well as professional genealogists avoid mis-spelling the profession, as it reflects poorly on the speller rather than on the person they are attempting to dis-credit...
JM
Exactly what I thought. You have ougatz, goose eggs, nada, zilch.
You have no proof and you need my cousin to take the Y-DNA test.
I'm glad you admit it.
You have better things to do? Really? Why were you looking up my Aunt Marjorie? Were
you looking up Doris and Freda too? Don't answer me because I really don't care. Whatever
you're trying to accomplish with your kaput geneological research, I guarantee it's not going to happen for you.
Sure. You don't have anything better to do.
-
His marriage notice, 3rd last column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199605793
This should provide his folks names:
1860 3908 WILSON Walter to BRYDEN Janet
Well E.M., I don’t doubt that Brett’s Walter came to Australia on the Diadem and the fact he doesn’t appear in the manifest means nothing. I think you’ll find that he isn’t the only person missing off it.
Your issue seems to be with connecting this Walter, a baker, to your family tree.
You say that Walter may have been out born out of wedlock, even so it is also the paternal bloodline which one can still lay claim, too.
Has anyone found the death of Wilhelmina to see what her surname was at time of death? Did this couple have other children?
I think that we who have Scottish ancestry, have all experienced an inabilty to find a Scottish marriage record, at one time.
I think it would be best if you both used the PM system to solve your issues, which I note seem to be very one sided. Brett has a right to believe what he wishes and so far he has been able to support his argument with documentation.
Brett, what evidence do you have that there wasn’t more than one Walter Wilson, carpenter, in Hawick at the time of Walters, baker, birth?
Jamjar
-
Baptism (06 April 1823) - Father, Walter Wilson (Hawick) Cabinet Maker ;-) - You will need to navigate this image to see further to the right where it says HAWICK
You failed to mention that this was in England:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JMR1-CBK
Jamjar
-
He here in June 1853, 3rd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article4793225
If he sailed in 1852, you should find him on the Scots 1841 and 1851 censuses.
Jamjar
Is this your Walter on the 1851?: WILSON Walter 1851 28 778/ 2/ 11 Selkirk Selkirk
Jamjar
-
I recall the Australian official at the Victoria records office responding that there was no connection to my Wilson's of Hawick.
This is a very odd thing to say. I very much doubt that someone working in the Victorian records office would be able to tell you of family history connections. You seem to be unfamiliar with our records systems. You will see from newspaper articles I have provided and the Victorian Records Office death registration that Brett’s information is correct. Walter and Janet had 3 sons, who would have provided the information about Walter. So, we know that must be correct and not made up by Brett.
Who taught him to be a baker?
A local baker no doubt. I was a hairdresser in my teens and a very good motor mechanic, thanks to watching my father work. My father did many jobs that were unrelated and also built our family homes. He wasn’t a trained builder. I’m also handy with tools thanks to watching/assisting him.
Who did he live with in Hawick?
I can’t find a match for him in Hawick on the 1841. Maybe he didn’t live in Hawick, but elsewhere with his mother, who I can’t pinpoint in England, or Scotland. I do now believe he was conceived out of wedlock. Also, he was baptised in 1823, which doesn’t mean he was born in 1823.
Why isn't his birth certificate on Scotland's People?
As it is highly likely he was born in England.
And, the basic question which would answer it all Where is the Marriage Certificate between my Walter Wilson b. 1798 and Wilhemina Bell
They weren’t married, I don’t think. I have an ancestor born out of wedlock who has the father’s surname.
Brett Maximutt, unlike you I was born in Scotland and I can prove who all of my ancestors were and how they are related to me with birth certificates, marriage certificates, and death certificates. You know, link after link, connection after direct connection. The way it's supposed to work. You're making quantum leaps from Australia to Scotland out of thin air.
Another very odd thing to say. I was born and live in Australia and I too can prove who all my Australian, Scottish, Welsh and English ancestors were through the purchase of all the relevant certificates.
Finally, Rootschat threads are not ‘blogs’. They are threads that focus on individual’s requests for assistance with tracing their ancestors. You may like to spend some time looking at the site. It’s very interesting and there are experienced folk on here that could give an expensive genealogist a run for their money. ;)
Jamjar
-
:) :)
Re any request for a marriage certificate to be produced for a formal marriage for Walter's parents, ... I understand that that's a formal certified legal document in the civil registration process ... and that civil registration commenced in Scotland in 1855 ... and in England in 1837.
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/guides/family-history and pre Civil Registration :
Church registers (pre-1855)
Prior to 1855 you will find Scottish births and baptisms, proclamations of banns and marriages, deaths and burials in church registers. These records are incomplete and entries contain much less information – sometimes not much more than the index entry – which varies from parish to parish and over time.
I understand that Scotland did not ban irregular marriages until 1940. https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/article/irregular-marriage-scotland
And then there's Common law marriages ...
And then there's the entries in the Family Bible that Brett holds :)
JM
-
http://www.nndb.com/people/455/000206834/
James Wilson Founder of The Economist
Born: 3-Jun-1805 Hawick, Scotland
Died: 11-Aug-1860 Calcutta, India
https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw06846/Hon-James-Wilson (portrait there)
and plenty of other live links via google search engine.
JM
ADD https://www.telegraphindia.com/states/west-bengal/taxman-rediscovers-father-of-taxation-mullickbazar-grave-of-economist-founder-james-wilson-gets-facelift-ahead-of-150th-death-anniversary/cid/1267133
-
You are not related to Sir James Glenny Wilson either. You keep making these claims and you have no proof.
Your Walter Wilson would have been mentioned in Sir James Glenny Wilson's South Island Journey that he wrote to George Murray Wilson in 1873. Wouldn't he have mentioned that he had a cousin that he was going to swing by and say hello to? They never met because they're not in the same family.
You can't answer the question of the marriage certificate because one does not exist, therefore you do not exist in my family tree.
Aside from not having any valid proof, you are not one of my Wilsons because your line is not mentioned in the family papers - anywhere. All the other branches of the tree are discussed extensively.
There was no baker in the family. Which family are you referring to? Did Walter Wilson, cabinet maker bake pastries too and then teach his imaginary son how to bake? We both know he didn't. We both know that there was no marriage. We both know that there is no connection. You are not related to Sir James Glenny Wilson, M.P. and you are not related to James Wilson, Esq. Founder of the Economist Magazine and Standard Chartered Bank.
Nobody went to Australia. They went to New Zealand and established Ngaio Station in New Zealand.
One of my elderly relatives continues to be interested in New Zealand history and recognised the mention of Sir James Glenny WILSON. He has contacted me, and after a lengthy discussion, I have eventually capitulated and agreed to post the information as follows. He is concerned about an inaccuracy of some significance … I have inserted the particular reply that concerns my rellie.
E.M. Wilson wrote ‘… Nobody went to Australia. They went to New Zealand and established Ngaio Station in New Zealand.’
Yes, Sir James was a member of Parliament in NZ, yes, he was involved in establishing Ngaio Station in NZ. ;) ;) ;) BUT he was most definitely in Australia, particularly in Victoria… and most importantly, from at least a family history perspective, HE MARRIED IN VICTORIA…
James Glenny WILSON and Annie ADAMS were married in the colony of Victoria (Australia). Vic BDM reference 1874, #801 . A Plastic Card would be needed to immediately download a full image (across two pags) of that marriage certificate.
https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/research-and-family-history/search-your-family-history
On Vic BDMs you should expect to read details that include the names of the parents of both the bride and the groom, (including nee names), and many other family history details. I think Vic BDMs are as informative as Scottish BDMs. Here’s a live link for RChat’s Resources Board for Victoria. https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369963.0 and one of the live links there includes:
Details on ALL Certificates for Victoria
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
Further info easily found via google ...
Online tree http://www.thekingscandlesticks.com/webs/pedigrees/19051.html
Biographical Material
https://teara.govt.nz/en/biographies/2w28/wilson-james-glenny
https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/3646487 at the National Library of Australia, Canberra.
http://www.nzsap.org/system/files/proceedings/1953/ab53008.pdf A pdf of a public address given in 1953 about Sir James, - mentions he came to Australia prior to New Zealand
I have checked and there’s many other online sightings for Sir James and for his wife.
Trove: https://trove.nla.gov.au/
Papers Past: https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/
NZ Archives https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ including Probate File WILSON, James Glenny (R11439752)
JM
-
I really appreciate your attention to this matter and your impressive knowledge of genealogy (spelled correctly this time) and of how to retrieve information. The details are incredible but you're just not hitting the target here.
And I agree, Brett can have his opinion as to who he is related to even if it is from an illegitimate birth. But I do not agree that Brett's opinion of being related to James Wilson, Founder of the Economist Magazine and Standard Chartered Bank should be advertised all over the internet by him. Even if his Great, Great Grandfather was born out of wedlock and that "counts" where is the proof of the birth? Where is the birth certificate? Who was the mother? Who does his Great Great Grandfather's death certificate list as his parents? Prove it's a bastard that came from my family line. Please tell me Brett is related to me with a bastard connection. Anybody?
Let's take this a little further, somebody mentioned that Brett failed to state that the baptism of his Great Great Grandfather took place in England. Why did Brett leave that detail out? Isn't that very important? Why would it take place in England when my family is Scottish and they are mainly listed as being in Hawick and Wilton?
Further, I wouldn't even care except that he has replaced his opinion as fact all over the internet. His opinion being that he is related to James Wilson, Economist and Founder of Standard Chartered Bank and now to Sir James Wilson of New Zealand when he is clearly not related.
If you search for James Wilson, Economist and Founder of Standard Chartered Bank Brett comes up and people are believing that he is from the same blood line when he has absolutely no proof and confirmed that in a previous post. There is no proof of a bastard line either. Why does my family have to have this attached to it? Do you see the big picture here? So, I'm not picking on Brett, I'm just wanting some proof. Put up or shut up type of proof and it's just not there. Any brilliant amateur genealogist willing to help? I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance. I would appreciate your help. :) It would be nice for Brett to get some third party assistance and unbiased judgment as to what is true and what is false, for Brett to finally get to the bottom of this since he's spent so much time and effort on trying to connect to my Wilson Family and still hasn't been able to do it.
Don't waste time with the minutia, just the facts please. Thanks again.
-
E.M.
I think you have mis-read my post ... the info I have provided in my reply is from one of my elderly relatives ... He is contradicting you. It is an aspect of your research that he is questioning.
JM
ADD Sir James was from Hawick, ENGLAND apparently ... see NZ papers past. OBSERVER, VOLUME XXXIII, ISSUE 19, 18 JANUARY 1913 page 4. James Glenny Wilson was born in Hawick, England, sixty-four years ago, and had his education topped off at London and Edinburgh universities. When he was twenty-one he arrived in Victoria, picked up some colonial experience, discovered New Zealand four years later and took up wool and mutton culture ....
I really appreciate your attention to this matter and your impressive knowledge of genealogy (spelled correctly this time) and of how to retrieve information. The details are incredible but you're just not hitting the target here.
And I agree, Brett can have his opinion as to who he is related to even if it is from an illegitimate birth. But I do not agree that Brett's opinion of being related to James Wilson, Founder of the Economist Magazine and Standard Chartered Bank should be advertised all over the internet by him. Even if his Great, Great Grandfather was born out of wedlock and that "counts" where is the proof of the birth? Where is the birth certificate? Who was the mother? Who does his Great Great Grandfather's death certificate list as his parents? Prove it's a bastard that came from my family line. Please tell me Brett is related to me with a bastard connection. Anybody?
Let's take this a little further, somebody mentioned that Brett failed to state that the baptism of his Great Great Grandfather took place in England. Why did Brett leave that detail out? Isn't that very important? Why would it take place in England when my family is Scottish and they are mainly listed as being in Hawick and Wilton?
Further, I wouldn't even care except that he has replaced his opinion as fact all over the internet. His opinion being that he is related to James Wilson, Economist and Founder of Standard Chartered Bank and now to Sir James Wilson of New Zealand when he is clearly not related.
If you search for James Wilson, Economist and Founder of Standard Chartered Bank Brett comes up and people are believing that he is from the same blood line when he has absolutely no proof and confirmed that in a previous post. There is no proof of a bastard line either. Why does my family have to have this attached to it? Do you see the big picture here? So, I'm not picking on Brett, I'm just wanting some proof. Put up or shut up type of proof and it's just not there. Any brilliant amateur genealogist willing to help? I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance. I would appreciate your help. :) It would be nice for Brett to get some third party assistance and unbiased judgment as to what is true and what is false, for Brett to finally get to the bottom of this since he's spent so much time and effort on trying to connect to my Wilson Family and still hasn't been able to do it.
Don't waste time with the minutia, just the facts please. Thanks again.
-
I know that they stopped in Australia but they didn't settle there. Thank you for that.
Brett claims to be from Walter Wilson of 1798. If he was a bastard baptised in England, they would have never crossed paths.
James Glenny Wilson was the Son of George Wilson of Kilmeny, Son of William Wilson, Manufacturer at that point the family was contained in Hawick busy with textiles and James went on to New Zealand after his housekeeper peaked his interest while he was studying and breeding dogs in Edinburgh. All of this happened in the next generation after Walter Wilson b. 1798. They were Quakers by now and wouldn't have associated with a bastard.
I'm in touch with the NZ side of the family but thank you for that.
-
Where is the birth certificate? Who was the mother? Who does his Great Great Grandfather's death certificate list as his parents?
The birth of Walter, born to Walter and Wilhelmina has been established by the baptism document. You most likely won’t get a birth cert for that time.
Walter’s death registration confirms parent’s names, as provided by his family, and link to information on baptism document.
The family bible supports the information found.
The only issue I see is linking him to those you call ‘your’ ancestors in Hawick.
I’d like to know where Wilhelmina ended up. Although Walter mentions writing to his father - no mention of mother - in the travel diary, it doesn’t mean he had lived with him, hence the need for the ‘41 and ‘51 census showing his age, location and occupation.
I’m still waiting on Brett to say who - the 3rd child - the brother of Jessie and Walter was who went to NZ.
I know you don’t believe that Jessie had siblings, but the family bible seems to indicate she did.
Has Brett provided you with copies of the bible’s listings?
Jamjar
-
Brett claims to be from Walter Wilson of 1798. If he was a bastard baptised in England, they would have never crossed paths.
He was baptised in England, that doesn’t mean he was born, or lived there.
Jamjar
-
I had added to my post :)
E.M.
I think you have mis-read my post ... the info I have provided in my reply is from one of my elderly relatives ... He is contradicting you. It is an aspect of your research that he is questioning.
JM
ADD Sir James was from Hawick, ENGLAND apparently ... see NZ papers past. OBSERVER, VOLUME XXXIII, ISSUE 19, 18 JANUARY 1913 page 4. James Glenny Wilson was born in Hawick, England, sixty-four years ago, and had his education topped off at London and Edinburgh universities. When he was twenty-one he arrived in Victoria, picked up some colonial experience, discovered New Zealand four years later and took up wool and mutton culture ....
.....
So an NZ paper in January 1913 noted Sir James was 64 and was born in Hawick, England...
JM
-
I had added to my post :)
E.M.
I think you have mis-read my post ... the info I have provided in my reply is from one of my elderly relatives ... He is contradicting you. It is an aspect of your research that he is questioning.
JM
ADD Sir James was from Hawick, ENGLAND apparently ... see NZ papers past. OBSERVER, VOLUME XXXIII, ISSUE 19, 18 JANUARY 1913 page 4. James Glenny Wilson was born in Hawick, England, sixty-four years ago, and had his education topped off at London and Edinburgh universities. When he was twenty-one he arrived in Victoria, picked up some colonial experience, discovered New Zealand four years later and took up wool and mutton culture ....
.....
So an NZ paper in January 1913 noted Sir James was 64 and was born in Hawick, England...
JM
I think they erred there JM. It should be Scotland, I feel.
Having said that it appears that there is no evidence for the birth of James. Wonder why that is?
Jamjar
-
The NZ paper listing Hawick as being in England. It's a misprint. Sir James Glenny Wilson was there 20 years after Brett's Great Great Grandfather was there. No mention of these two meeting in Australia...because it didn't happen. Brett's Great Great Grandfather was in Castlemaine as a Gold Rush pioneer digging through mud. Sir James Glenny was very comfortable let's say and married a woman whose father owned 53,000 acres of New Zealand land. Worlds apart.
You write "The only issue I see is linking him to those you call ‘your’ ancestors in Hawick." That is the issue. Brett has linked himself to My ancestors without any proof, without making the connection. Not even the illegitimate connection. I call them "my" ancestors because that is a fact, that is the truth and it can not be changed or interpreted, or opined and it's all laid out on Scotland's People for anyone to see and it is in my family tree.
No, Brett did not provide me with the bible listings.
There are a lot of "ifs" here, aren't there?
If Jessie had illegitimate half-brothers and half-sisters and if they are related as Brett claims but can not prove, Walter still would not have been associating with his bastard cousin (if Brett's Great Great Grandfather was actually the cousin of Sir James Glenny Wilson), Sir James Glenny Wilson because James was a Quaker with high moral standards from a family with high moral standards. They were Quakers that didn't believe in war, debt and being louses creating children out of wedlock - you follow me here? If you want to be louse, that's fine but you can't be both a louse and a Quaker being part of a Quaker family or be a Quaker and hang around louses. My family also made the Quaker Chapel in Hawick - so they were really into the Quaker lifestyle all the way. There is no connection here.
-
They may well have erred ... :) newspapers can make mistakes, afterall, reporters are human too.
JM
-
E.M. Yes, I do well appreciate Quakers. I wonder though if you are reading all the live links and going through these to see all the information about the Hawick WILSONs that has actually been in the public domain for decades, long before the Internet...
JM
-
The NZ paper listing Hawick as being in England. It's a misprint. Sir James Glenny Wilson was there 20 years after Brett's Great Great Grandfather was there. No mention of these two meeting in Australia...because it didn't happen. Brett's Great Great Grandfather was in Castlemaine as a Gold Rush pioneer digging through mud. Sir James Glenny was very comfortable let's say and married a woman whose father owned 53,000 acres of New Zealand land. Worlds apart.
You write "The only issue I see is linking him to those you call ‘your’ ancestors in Hawick." That is the issue. Brett has linked himself to My ancestors without any proof, without making the connection. Not even the illegitimate connection. I call them "my" ancestors because that is a fact, that is the truth and it can not be changed or interpreted, or opined and it's all laid out on Scotland's People for anyone to see and it is in my family tree by Lucy Ann Wilson of 1890.
No, Brett did not provide me with the bible listings.
There are a lot of "ifs" here, aren't there?
If Jessie had illegitimate half-brothers and half-sisters and if they are related as Brett claims but can not prove, Walter still would not have been associating with his bastard cousin (if Brett's Great Great Grandfather was actually the cousin of Sir James Glenny Wilson), Sir James Glenny Wilson because James was a Quaker with high moral standards from a family with high moral standards. They were Quakers that didn't believe in war, debt and being louses creating children out of wedlock - you follow me here? It just doesn't make sense. If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck, guess what - It's a duck! There is no connection here.
James Glenny WILSON was in Victoria for a number of years, in the 1870s. Brett's relative was also in Victoria in that same time frame. James was here on his father's properties. While here, in Australia, he went to New Zealand, and purchased land there and returned to Victoria where he married. His father's businesses were unable to continue to fund James, so his wife's funds were vital in the New Zealand ventures.
Earlier E.M. was concerned about Brett's claim about his WILSON passenger on the Diadem. - I imagine E.M. would have the shipping details for James Glenny WILSON to Victoria and then back and forth to New Zealand. I know that they stopped in Australia but they didn't settle there. Thank you for that.
Brett claims to be from Walter Wilson of 1798. If he was a bastard baptised in England, they would have never crossed paths.
James Glenny Wilson was the Son of George Wilson of Kilmeny, Son of William Wilson, Manufacturer at that point the family was contained in Hawick busy with textiles and James went on to New Zealand after his housekeeper peaked his interest while he was studying and breeding dogs in Edinburgh. All of this happened in the next generation after Walter Wilson b. 1798. They were Quakers by now and wouldn't have associated with a bastard.
I'm in touch with the NZ side of the family but thank you for that.
I am amazed that any family history buff in the 21st century is fretting over whether someone's birth was or was not within a formal marriage.
JM
-
No, I have not read any of it. I have done my own research through family books in private circulation, private family trees, and family members. However, I do keep coming across Brett's false claims whenever I research James Wilson, Economist and Founder of Standard Chartered Bank. It's outrageous!
I wouldn't even have started researching the family if it wasn't for coming across an imposter.
That is not my concern. I was not concerned to uncover the Wilson family and how great they were, my interest is solely that somebody is perpetuating a lie.
Why is it not a MAJOR issue that someone is lying? Does anyone have a moral compass?
I've made my point multiple times. I guess I'm just old fashioned and I am very concerned that there was no legitimate birth. I am even more concerned that nobody can prove an illegitimate birth connection. So, I guess I'm alone in having high standards. So be it.
-
The Southern Reporter, Selkirk Scotland, Wed Dec 31, 1925, page 4
HAWICK
Handsome Gift
Sir James Glenny Wilson of Bulls, New Zealand, who belongs to Hawick, has sent a contribution of £20 to be distributed in gifts of coal to the deserving poor of his native town.
:) That's sorted one issue ! :)
JM
-
No, I have not read any of it. I have done my own research through family books in private circulation, private family trees, and family members. However, I do keep coming across Brett's false claims whenever I research James Wilson, Economist and Founder of Standard Chartered Bank. It's outrageous!
I wouldn't even have started researching the family if it wasn't for coming across an imposter.
That is not my concern. I was not concerned to uncover the Wilson family and how great they were, my interest is solely that somebody is perpetuating a lie.
Why is it not a MAJOR issue that someone is lying? Does anyone have a moral compass?
I've made my point multiple times. I guess I'm just old fashioned and I am very concerned that there was no legitimate birth. I am even more concerned that nobody can prove an illegitimate birth connection. So, I guess I'm alone in having high standards. So be it.
E.M. Genealogy is not about proving legitimacy of birth. Genealogy is not a moral compass. :) Pedigrees can be useful pointers, but until IVF came along, in the 1970s, I think it is doubtful that anyone could actually prove who fathered any baby - legitimately or otherwise.
JM
-
That's lovely, I didn't know that.
I did know that the Wilson's erected the first public laundry for the people in Hawick.
As a whole, they had certain qualities that made them inherently good.
I found it interesting that the town of Hawick tried to get them to pay a lot more than their fair share of water fees and they even went to court over it. Evil doesn't take a holiday. The Wilson's prevailed with the help of several magistrates. The Wilson's employed many townspeople, drove industry, built a public laundry, a public chapel and the town wanted to bill them more than other people for their water usage.
Genealogy is all about who fathered who and who claimed who as their son or daughter. Even if there was an illegitimate birth, the father is the person who claims the child. The father is the person who stands up and takes responsibility for a child. That is what a father does. A man who reproduces and then doesn't claim the kid is not a real father, or a real man. An illegitimate child is that of a union that is not blessed. Don't you see that in real life? Do you not see unwed mothers and children having children in Hawick? They are not blessed. Anyway, I can't get into it.
-
The NZ paper listing Hawick as being in England. It's a misprint. Sir James Glenny Wilson was there 20 years after Brett's Great Great Grandfather was there. No mention of these two meeting in Australia...because it didn't happen. Brett's Great Great Grandfather was in Castlemaine as a Gold Rush pioneer digging through mud. Sir James Glenny was very comfortable let's say and married a woman whose father owned 53,000 acres of New Zealand land. Worlds apart.
You write "The only issue I see is linking him to those you call ‘your’ ancestors in Hawick." That is the issue. Brett has linked himself to My ancestors without any proof, without making the connection. Not even the illegitimate connection. I call them "my" ancestors because that is a fact, that is the truth and it can not be changed or interpreted, or opined and it's all laid out on Scotland's People for anyone to see and it is in my family tree.
No, Brett did not provide me with the bible listings.
There are a lot of "ifs" here, aren't there?
If Jessie had illegitimate half-brothers and half-sisters and if they are related as Brett claims but can not prove, Walter still would not have been associating with his bastard cousin (if Brett's Great Great Grandfather was actually the cousin of Sir James Glenny Wilson), Sir James Glenny Wilson because James was a Quaker with high moral standards from a family with high moral standards. They were Quakers that didn't believe in war, debt and being louses creating children out of wedlock - you follow me here? If you want to be louse, that's fine but you can't be both a louse and a Quaker being part of a Quaker family or be a Quaker and hang around louses. My family also made the Quaker Chapel in Hawick - so they were really into the Quaker lifestyle all the way. There is no connection here.
EM...You may not be aware but at RChat when we modify our postz we note it... and I gather you modified the final paragraph after I had quoted it so your modification is not showing up in my post # 53
JM
-
JM,
I don't know what I modified, especially since it didn't take.
But after reviewing what I wrote there is a mistake. To correct it, I meant to say the following:
If Jessie had illegitimate half-brothers and half-sisters and if they are related as Brett claims but can not prove, Brett's Great Great Grandfather still would not have been associating with his alleged cousin, Sir James Glenny Wilson because James was a Quaker with high moral standards from a family with high moral standards. I hope that makes better sense.
-
JM,
I don't know what I modified, especially since it didn't take.
But after reviewing what I wrote there is a mistake. To correct it, I meant to say the following:
If Jessie had illegitimate half-brothers and half-sisters and if they are related as Brett claims but can not prove, Brett's Great Great Grandfather still would not have been associating with his alleged cousin, Sir James Glenny Wilson because James was a Quaker with high moral standards from a family with high moral standards. I hope that makes better sense.
EM, please take care and read back through this entire thread. You have made some very strong statements that can be tested for truthfulness. You claim the high ground on your moral compass. You are now saying that you did not modify your own post.
I have already quoted the original of your post, and that same post, modified.
The final paragraph was originally : If Jessie had illegitimate half-brothers and half-sisters and if they are related as Brett claims but can not prove, Walter still would not have been associating with his bastard cousin (if Brett's Great Great Grandfather was actually the cousin of Sir James Glenny Wilson), Sir James Glenny Wilson because James was a Quaker with high moral standards from a family with high moral standards. They were Quakers that didn't believe in war, debt and being louses creating children out of wedlock - you follow me here? It just doesn't make sense. If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck, guess what - It's a duck! There is no connection here.
as per MY QUOTE some 35 or so minutes after your post.
Some time later, you then modified it to: If Jessie had illegitimate half-brothers and half-sisters and if they are related as Brett claims but can not prove, Walter still would not have been associating with his bastard cousin (if Brett's Great Great Grandfather was actually the cousin of Sir James Glenny Wilson), Sir James Glenny Wilson because James was a Quaker with high moral standards from a family with high moral standards. They were Quakers that didn't believe in war, debt and being louses creating children out of wedlock - you follow me here? If you want to be louse, that's fine but you can't be both a louse and a Quaker being part of a Quaker family or be a Quaker and hang around louses. My family also made the Quaker Chapel in Hawick - so they were really into the Quaker lifestyle all the way. There is no connection here.
I have highlighted a number of differences ....
And now you seem to be saying you should have written that paragraph as:
If Jessie had illegitimate half-brothers and half-sisters and if they are related as Brett claims but can not prove, Brett's Great Great Grandfather still would not have been associating with his alleged cousin, Sir James Glenny Wilson because James was a Quaker with high moral standards from a family with high moral standards. I hope that makes better sense.
JM
-
http://quaker.org.nz/quaker-faith-and-practice-in-aotearoanew-zealand
JM
-
Somebody might like this .Squabbling doesn't help. I recorded this at Hobkirk cemetery .There are numerous Turnbulls and Amos there.Hope the photo come out readable.
121 In memory of JANNET K. AMOS wife of WALTER A.
TURNBULL who died at Bonchester Bridge 19th June 1896 aged
54yrs and the above WALTER AMOS TURNBULL who died 9th
November 1916 aged 66yrs.
-
Forget it!
-
Why isn't his birth certificate on Scotland's People?
And, the basic question which would answer it all Where is the Marriage Certificate between my Walter Wilson b. 1798 and Wilhemina Bell?????????????
There is no marriage certificate because marriage certificates did not exist before 1 January 1855.
Also the absence of a record of an event does NOT mean that the event did not take place. It is estimated that around a third of baptisms in the early 19th century either were not recorded, or if they were, the records have not survived. The further back you get, the patchier the records get.
Scotland's People has all the post-1855 statutory civil records, all of the surviving Church of Scotland Registers and Roman Catholic records, and most of the Secession and Free Churches' records. It does not have any records of the Episcopal Church.
The only possible Walter Wilson that is recorded on Scotland's People that fits in with Walter Wilson's life span is the one born in 1859 and he died at age 9. And that would have meant that his alleged father, died when he was three years old in 1862.
Just because there is only one possible candidate in the index at SP does NOT means that (s)he was in fact the only one. There is always a possibility that there was another person whose baptism and/or marriage records have not survived.
-
EM Wilson I have just sent you a pm regarding your posting on this topic.
Sarah
-
See attached family tree snapshot. The line is discontinued. There were no additional children.
Brett Wilson is not part of the Wilson Family and he is not the Cousin (five times removed) of James Wilson, Economist.
He has not provided the bible listings or any documents to the contrary. He needs to rescind his false claims.
-
I very much doubt that that X on that chart was put there at the same time as the rest of the information. It looks to me as if it has been added later. In fact it looks like a felt pen or crayon rather than a pen nib. I don't think it is safe to assume that it is part of the original information.
-
I agree with Forfarian's post.
Also, may I mention that there's an excellent set of Resources provided by RootsChat at the following live link. https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=506855.0
ADD
Including a live link for this : https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/ROX/Hawick/wilson
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/ROX/Hawick/table .... which is a transcribed set of records kept by a Howick solicitor named James WILSON - unofficial register of 408 deaths in the Hawick area 1825-1862 .... the list was transcribed back in 1915 by a Hawick Society, so many years before anyone posting on this thread was born.... :) There is a note there reminding the readers that ' In total 408 deaths were recorded, only a fraction of those in the Hawick area at this time'
JM
-
Yes, that is an accurate assessment. The felt tip pen was invented in the 1960's and the family member who published the tree which was hand drawn one hundred years prior, must have added the mark in the early 1970's when she published the family tree (see tree in previous post).
Thank you for the links. Fair warning though, the Hawick Archaeological Society may not be very accurate since they inducted Brett Wilson as a lifetime member without verifying his claims to my Wilson Family and James Wilson, Founder of the Economist and Standard Chartered Bank. They have also allowed him to boast his fake relationship to James Wilson, Economist on their website.
“ The Transactions from the Hawick Archaeological Society have been a most valuable resource for me in tracing my ancestors that stemmed from Hawick and the surrounding countryside, from my GGGGGG Grandparents from Branxholme Town to the likes of my ancestor James Wilson, the founder of the "Economist" magazine from Hawick.” -BRETT JAMES WILSON CEO - Technology Company
http://hawickhistory.scot/members/
Can we move on here? You're all very knowledgeable and it is impressive but the facts remain don't they. Brett Wilson is not related to James Wilson, Economist. This is a false claim as per my family tree image.
Further, John Wilson had Walter Wilson (the handless wat) b. 1712
The handless wat had Walter "Uncle Watty" Wilson, Cabinet Maker b. 1770
Uncle Watty had Walter "Cousin Wattie" Wilson, Cabinet Maker b. 1798-1862
Cousin Wattie married Jessie Grey. He didn't marry anybody else. He didn't produce
any other children (Brett's Grandfather). It never happened. Sorry.
Their child was Jessie Wilson who married Hobkirk 11 Jan 1849 in Hawick. They had no children.
The line ended as per the "X" on the tree.
Brett Wilson is not related to James Wilson, Economist. Brett belongs to another Wilson family from Australia. There is no connection here. He needs to stop claiming he's related to James Wilson. He is NOT.
-
Yes, that is an accurate assessment. The felt tip pen was invented in the 1960's and the family member who published the tree which was hand drawn one hundred years prior, must have added the mark in the early 1970's when she published the family tree (see tree in previous post).
Thank you for the links. Fair warning though, the Hawick Archaeological Society may not be very accurate since they inducted Brett Wilson as a lifetime member without verifying his claims to my Wilson Family and James Wilson, Founder of the Economist and Standard Chartered Bank.
Can we move on here? You're all very knowledgeable and it is impressive but the facts remain don't they. Brett Wilson is not related to James Wilson, Economist. This is a false claim as per my family tree image.
Further, John Wilson had Walter Wilson (the handless wat) b. 1712
The handless wat had Walter "Uncle Watty" Wilson, Cabinet Maker b. 1770
Uncle Watty had Walter "Cousin Wattie" Wilson, Cabinet Maker b. 1798-1862
Cousin Wattie married Jessie Grey. He didn't marry anybody else. He didn't produce
any other children (Brett's Grandfather). It never happened. Sorry.
Their child was Jessie Wilson who married Hobkirk 11 Jan 1849 in Hawick. They had no children.
The line ended as per the "X" on the tree.
Brett Wilson is not related to James Wilson, Economist. Brett belongs to another Wilson family from Australia. There is no connection here. He needs to stop claiming he's related to James Wilson. He is NOT.
Thank you for providing your perspective.
JM
-
You're welcome JM.
-
Cousin Wattie married Jessie Grey. He didn't marry anybody else.
You are wrong.
Walter Wilson, retired cabinetmaker, married to Isabella Gray, aged 64, died at Silverbuthall, parish of Wilton, Roxburghshire, on 9 May 1862 and his death was registered by Jessie Hobkirk, daughter.
The 1861 census lists at Silverbuthall House, Wilton, Walter Wilson, retired cabinetmaker, 62, born Hawick and his wife Isabella Wilson, aged 36. The 1851 lists him as a widower in Hawick, and he married Isabella Gray in 1856.
The FamilySearch index for that baptism in 1823 lists the child's name as Walter Bell or Wilson, which is a crystal clear indicator that he was illegitimate.
I also note that in spite of your challenge to Brett to produce a clearly non-existent marriage certificate of Walter Wilson to Wilhelmina Bell, there is no listing on Scotland's People of a marriage of Walter Wilson to Jessie or Janet Grey. Can you produce evidence of that marriage?
In my opinion the available records do support Brett's claim that he is a descendant of Walter Wilson (1798-1862) through an illegitimate son by Wilhelmina Bell.
-
Well found, excellent, that makes good sense to me, here in Australia. I am not a descendant, I have no knowledge of Brett or anyone else who has posted on this thread.
Thanks to Forfarian for that excellent effort. My elderly rellies will be very impressed, - retired clergy, archivist, and senior NSW BDM officers, all read the threads but wont join up .... instead they phone me and prompt me to post .... :) I was borm 1947 ... they are a generation older...
JM
-
Well found, excellent, that makes good sense to me, here in Australia. I am not a descendant, I have no knowledge of Brett or anyone else who has posted on this thread.
I am not related either - know nothing of Brett or of E M or their families - but facts are chiels that winna ding, and you have to take all the evidence into consideration. I await E M's response with great interest.
-
Thank you for your input Forfarian. I was wrong that Walter did not remarry. He did and you found the document. Great detective work! This is another addition to the pattern of levirate marriages in my family history. This is probably due to the wives dying after childbirth. There are also several first cousin marriages with children.
Regarding the marriage certificate of Walter Wilson to Jessie (not Janet) Gray, there doesn't need to be a marriage certificate on Scotland's People because the marriage is already noted on the family tree. A marriage certificate would be necessary for Brett to prove he's a family member since Wilhemina Bell is not on the family tree. We can establish that Walter Wilson had two marriages (Jessie and Isabella Gray).
Since there is a record of a Walter Wilson and Wilhelmina Bell being parents of a Walter Bell or Wilson and that would prove an illegitimate child, we would still need to identify Walter Wilson being the same man as Walter “Cousin Wattie” Wilson, Cabinet Maker born 1798 in Hawick with the death in 1862. To help clarify the Baptism record of 1823, I await a response from my local family search center to see if the Walter Wilson listed on the document is my Walter Wilson. I'm interested to hear what this unbiased third party record holder has to say. Otherwise, if there is no identity match Brett's Gt. Grandfather born 1823 belongs to John Wilson and M. Brydone and Brett is part of their Wilson family not mine. 8) ;D :o ;)
-
Thank you for your input Forfarian. I was wrong that Walter did not remarry. He did and you found the document. Great detective work! This is another addition to the pattern of levirate marriages in my family history. This is probably due to the wives dying after childbirth. There are also several first cousin marriages with children.
Regarding the marriage certificate of Walter Wilson to Jessie (not Janet) Gray, there doesn't need to be a marriage certificate on Scotland's People because the marriage is already noted on the family tree. A marriage certificate would be necessary for Brett to prove he's a family member since Wilhemina Bell is not on the family tree. We can establish that Walter Wilson had two marriages (Jessie and Isabella Gray).
Since there is a record of a Walter Wilson and Wilhelmina Bell being parents of a Walter Bell or Wilson and that would prove an illegitimate child, we would still need to identify Walter Wilson being the same man as Walter “Cousin Wattie” Wilson, Cabinet Maker born 1798 in Hawick with the death in 1862. To help clarify the Baptism record of 1823, I await a response from my local family search center to see if the Walter Wilson listed on the document is my Walter Wilson. I'm interested to hear what this unbiased third party record holder has to say. Otherwise, if there is no identity match Brett's Gt. Grandfather born 1823 belongs to John Wilson and M. Brydone and Brett is part of their Wilson family not mine. 8) ;D :o ;)
I am quite sure that there's many unbiased third party RChatters with many years of experience , some with formal tertiary qualifications who have been following this thread.
ADD ... see images at Replies #14, and thereabouts... :)
JM
-
Regarding Reply #14, there was more than one Walter Wilson in Hawick at the time. Brett's illegitimate Gt. Grandfather could have been from Isabel Richardson's husband, Walter Wilson of 1821 in Hawick. The bible listing shows "W.W." as the father which is not very descriptive.
WILSON
WALTER
ISABEL RICHARDSON/FR1365 (FR1365)
25/06/1821
789/
60 4
Hawick
I'm sure the FamilySearch Library in Utah will help sort it out.
Refer to Reply #12, the DNA matches Brett claims to have - who matches who? I'm listening intently.
See below where Barbara, Staff Member and Loyal Member of forum.familyhistory.uk.com points out that there is no connection to Walter Wilson of Hawick.
20 June 2013#42
Hi Brett,
yes I know Mary very well, with her at the moment at BFHS archives and am a volunteer there. Gibbo and Dave have been great getting the ship that Janet went on and tying up Janet's daughter Marion Inglis.
We have been looking at Janet's grandparents today at the archives and sure Mary will be in touch. The Walter Wilson in Hawick is not yours, I am sorry to say. He was in Selkirk in 41 and 51.
Barbara
Further to this, the Jessie Wilson that Brett claims is my Jessie Hobkirk (nee Wilson) is according to him another illegitimate child of 7 between Walter Wilson and Wilhelmina Bell. That coin he posted earlier is not to legitimate Jessie Hobkirk (nee Wilson) but to illegitimate Jessie Wilson.
" Walter Snr. and Wilhelmina Bell had 6 or 7 children: Walter Wilson Jnr., Fergus Wilson, Ann Wilson, James Wilson, Jessie Wilson, Wilhemina Wilson, and possibly an Isabella Wilson also. At least, these siblings are all listed as such in the front cover of Walter Wilson's (my GGG Grandfather) Bible, of which I now have a photo of ;-)"
20 June 2013#46
Fergus marries a Sarah and in 1861 he is in Newbiggin, Cumberland with his wife and several children, one of whom is called Walter Wilson Elliot! Walter is aged 3. There seems to be a lot more info for you to find on this family.
Barbara
Brett writes:"This all follows true with what I have been told, in that he has an open and loving relationship with his apparent adoptive mother in Mrs. Hume, yet he is distant from his real mother "Wilhemine Bell". other notes in his bible also indicate that he had sisters promised to marry someone in Penrith (England) where his birth mother had moved to or back to.. So it seems likely that there was a great rift between his father and his mother and they both went back to where they came from e.g Walter Snr. to Hawick and Wilhemine to Penrith (Englan). And whilst the evidence has not been gathered, it still appears that Walter Snr. began a new life in Hawick with Isabella and Walter Jnr. and Walter Snr. continued to have a distant relationship that consisted of letters of communication rather than personal encounters...
Strange days in deed, though my father himself "Brydon William Wilson" has been married 4 times, so who knows LOL."
Oh hahahaha! It's just all so funny. There is no connection here to James Wilson, Founder of the Economist Magazine and Standard Chartered Bank. Sure, Walter Wilson fathered 6-7 children and then left while being married to a 36 year old Isabella Gray.
For more stupidity see the whole tale here: https://forum.familyhistory.uk.com/threads/wilson-and-bryden-victoria.24109/page-3
Brett further writes:
Then Wilhemina marries Robert Elliot in 1824 and they have 6 children. Fergus may have named his child Walter Wilson in some attempt of elderly brother worship???
At least with this theory we dont have Walter Wilson Snr leading a double life LOL.
And yes, still a bit of theory here, but let's say Walter Senior and Wilhemina Bell never married.. And Wilhemina marries Robert Elliot in 1824 as you mentioned Barbara; And Walter Wilson Snr, if I have the correct Walter Wilson from Hawick, marries Isabella Richards son around 1824 and they have their first daughter Jane in 1825...
Then Walter Wilson Jnr is simply illegitimate. Both his mother and father start new lives and families, which explains why at some point, Walter Wilson Junior is then living with the Hume family in Selkirk..
HERE IT IS ABOVE- It's a different Walter Wilson. It's the one married to Isabella Richardson.
Extract from Walter's Diary here:
"Left Selkirk, Scotland (Not Hawick), 22nd May 1852. 29 years of age previous 3rd March. With the intention of emigrating to Australia. Arrived in London by way of Leith and Hull 25th May. Sailed from The East India Docks, Blackwall London on Sabbath morning 27th June, 10 o’clock am, per ship Diadem 714 Tons reg. And 1100 tons burden. Capt. Gillis, Commander, native of Greenock, N.B. Anchored off Gravesend same date, making preparation for voyage up to 30th June."
AND.. He arrives in Melbourne Australia...
"Entering the bay in safety, we signalled for a pilot, and anchored abreast of Melbourne at 3 o’clock afternoon 31st October 1852 – forming a protracted passage of 126 days."
-
Regarding Reply #14, there was more than one Walter Wilson in Hawick at the time. Brett's illegitimate Gt. Grandfather could have been from Isabel Richardson's husband, Walter Wilson of 1821 in Hawick. The bible listing shows "W.W." as the father which is not very descriptive.
WILSON
WALTER
ISABEL RICHARDSON/FR1365 (FR1365)
25/06/1821
789/
60 4
Hawick
I'm sure the FamilySearch Library in Utah will help sort it out.
Refer to Reply #12, the DNA matches Brett claims to have - who matches who? I'm listening intently.
See below where Barbara, Staff Member and Loyal Member of forum.familyhistory.uk.com points out that there is no connection to Walter Wilson of Hawick.
20 June 2013#42
Hi Brett,
yes I know Mary very well, with her at the moment at BFHS archives and am a volunteer there. Gibbo and Dave have been great getting the ship that Janet went on and tying up Janet's daughter Marion Inglis.
We have been looking at Janet's grandparents today at the archives and sure Mary will be in touch. The Walter Wilson in Hawick is not yours, I am sorry to say. He was in Selkirk in 41 and 51.
Barbara
Further to this, the Jessie Wilson that Brett claims is my Jessie Hobkirk (nee Wilson) is according to him another illegitimate child of 7 between Walter Wilson and Wilhelmina Bell. That coin he posted earlier is not to legitimate Jessie Hobkirk (nee Wilson) but to illegitimate Jessie Wilson.
" Walter Snr. and Wilhelmina Bell had 6 or 7 children: Walter Wilson Jnr., Fergus Wilson, Ann Wilson, James Wilson, Jessie Wilson, Wilhemina Wilson, and possibly an Isabella Wilson also. At least, these siblings are all listed as such in the front cover of Walter Wilson's (my GGG Grandfather) Bible, of which I now have a photo of ;-)"
20 June 2013#46
Fergus marries a Sarah and in 1861 he is in Newbiggin, Cumberland with his wife and several children, one of whom is called Walter Wilson Elliot! Walter is aged 3. There seems to be a lot more info for you to find on this family.
Barbara
Brett writes:"This all follows true with what I have been told, in that he has an open and loving relationship with his apparent adoptive mother in Mrs. Hume, yet he is distant from his real mother "Wilhemine Bell". other notes in his bible also indicate that he had sisters promised to marry someone in Penrith (England) where his birth mother had moved to or back to.. So it seems likely that there was a great rift between his father and his mother and they both went back to where they came from e.g Walter Snr. to Hawick and Wilhemine to Penrith (Englan). And whilst the evidence has not been gathered, it still appears that Walter Snr. began a new life in Hawick with Isabella and Walter Jnr. and Walter Snr. continued to have a distant relationship that consisted of letters of communication rather than personal encounters...
Strange days in deed, though my father himself "Brydon William Wilson" has been married 4 times, so who knows LOL."
Oh hahahaha! It's just all so funny. There is no connection here to James Wilson, Founder of the Economist Magazine and Standard Chartered Bank. Sure, Walter Wilson fathered 6-7 children and then left while being married to a 36 year old Isabella Gray.
For more stupidity see the whole tale here: https://forum.familyhistory.uk.com/threads/wilson-and-bryden-victoria.24109/page-3
May I just note that this post has been modified, by adding many paragraphs. I first read it at several minutes past two o'clock, (1405 hours, NSW daylight savings time) . The new additions commence with the words :
See below where Barbara, Staff Member and Loyal Member of .......
ADD, I confirm the changes were made after I read the post, and then attended to some domestic duties and then returned to RChat. The OP was not online at that time, and it was about 2:45 pm (1445 hours NSW daylight savings time) ie 11 hours ahead of GMT.
JM
-
See below where Barbara, Staff Member and Loyal Member of forum.familyhistory.uk.com points out that there is no connection to Walter Wilson of Hawick.
20 June 2013#42
Hi Brett,
yes I know Mary very well, with her at the moment at BFHS archives and am a volunteer there. Gibbo and Dave have been great getting the ship that Janet went on and tying up Janet's daughter Marion Inglis.
We have been looking at Janet's grandparents today at the archives and sure Mary will be in touch. The Walter Wilson in Hawick is not yours, I am sorry to say. He was in Selkirk in 41 and 51.
Barbara
Further to this, the Jessie Wilson that Brett claims is my Jessie Hobkirk (nee Wilson) is according to him another illegitimate child of 7 between Walter Wilson and Wilhelmina Bell. That coin he posted earlier is not to legitimate Jessie Hobkirk (nee Wilson) but to illegitimate Jessie Wilson.
" Walter Snr. and Wilhelmina Bell had 6 or 7 children: Walter Wilson Jnr., Fergus Wilson, Ann Wilson, James Wilson, Jessie Wilson, Wilhemina Wilson, and possibly an Isabella Wilson also. At least, these siblings are all listed as such in the front cover of Walter Wilson's (my GGG Grandfather) Bible, of which I now have a photo of ;-)"
20 June 2013#46
Fergus marries a Sarah and in 1861 he is in Newbiggin, Cumberland with his wife and several children, one of whom is called Walter Wilson Elliot! Walter is aged 3. There seems to be a lot more info for you to find on this family.
Barbara
Brett writes:"This all follows true with what I have been told, in that he has an open and loving relationship with his apparent adoptive mother in Mrs. Hume, yet he is distant from his real mother "Wilhemine Bell". other notes in his bible also indicate that he had sisters promised to marry someone in Penrith (England) where his birth mother had moved to or back to.. So it seems likely that there was a great rift between his father and his mother and they both went back to where they came from e.g Walter Snr. to Hawick and Wilhemine to Penrith (Englan). And whilst the evidence has not been gathered, it still appears that Walter Snr. began a new life in Hawick with Isabella and Walter Jnr. and Walter Snr. continued to have a distant relationship that consisted of letters of communication rather than personal encounters...
Strange days in deed, though my father himself "Brydon William Wilson" has been married 4 times, so who knows LOL."
Oh hahahaha! It's just all so funny. There is no connection here to James Wilson, Founder of the Economist Magazine and Standard Chartered Bank. Sure, Walter Wilson fathered 6-7 children and then left while being married to a 36 year old Isabella Gray.
For more stupidity see the whole tale here: https://forum.familyhistory.uk.com/threads/wilson-and-bryden-victoria.24109/page-3
-
So from what I can gather, Walter Snr. and Wilhemina Bell had Walter Wilson in April 1823. Born on the 5th and christened/baptised on the 6th of April in Cumberland. (See transcript of the extract further down).
Walter Snr as mentioned in another post, was from Hawick, or was living there in July 1852 as Walter Jnr, mentions writing a letter to him then and to his mother Wilhemina Bell in Penrith.
Then Wilhemina marries Robert Elliot in 1824 and they have 6 children. Fergus may have named his child Walter Wilson in some attempt of elderly brother worship???
At least with this theory we dont have Walter Wilson Snr leading a double life LOL.
And yes, still a bit of theory here, but let's say Walter Senior and Wilhemina Bell never married.. And Wilhemina marries Robert Elliot in 1824 as you mentioned Barbara; And Walter Wilson Snr, if I have the correct Walter Wilson from Hawick, marries Isabella Richards son around 1824 and they have their first daughter Jane in 1825...
Then Walter Wilson Jnr is simply illegitimate. Both his mother and father start new lives and families, which explains why at some point, Walter Wilson Junior is then living with the Hume family in Selkirk..
I will chase up information on Walter Wilson Senior to see if we can in deed confirm that he was a baker by trade from the diaries etc.
-
Regarding the marriage certificate of Walter Wilson to Jessie (not Janet) Gray, there doesn't need to be a marriage certificate on Scotland's People because the marriage is already noted on the family tree. A marriage certificate would be necessary for Brett to prove he's a family member since Wilhemina Bell is not on the family tree. We can establish that Walter Wilson had two marriages (Jessie and Isabella Gray).
Come off it.
You are questioning the validity of Brett's claim because he cannot produce a marriage certificate, yet you cannot produce the corresponding proof of a marriage between Walter Wilson and Janet or Jessie Gray. The only marriage that can be proved is the one to Isabella Gray, but before you were presented with that proof you said that he was only married once, to Janet or Jessie Gray.
You are relying on a tree as 'proof' that you are right and Brett is wrong, but you refuse to accept the evidence from his family bible that his Walter Wilson had a sister Jessie who married Mr Hobkirk.
A family bible is primary evidence, because it is written at the time of an event by the people involved. A tree is secondary evidence because it was drawn up later.
Your tree is clearly inaccurate because it does not mention Isabella Gray. Therefore it cannot be relied upon to be 100% correct in every respect. Who drew it up? A prudish Victorian who would not want to include a bastard line?
What was the purpose of the tree? Was it to set out a full family, or was it to show a particular line of descent only? If the former, why does it not include Jessie's husband's given name? If the latter, then the omission of other children of the parties involved is irrelevant.
You initially set great store by the 'x' alongside Jessie's name, which you said proved that Walter Wilson's line had ended with Jessie. Yet you later admitted that this 'x' was not part of the original tree, so it proves nothing.
The primary evidence clearly shows that Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker in Hawick, had an illegitimate son by Wilhelmina Bell in 1823. There were of course two Walter Wilsons, both cabinetmakers, in Hawick in the early 1820s, father 1770-1847 and and son 1798-1862. Was there a third one?
The only way that it could possibly be proved that your Walter Wilson is not the one who may or may not have actually married Janet or Jessie Grey is a DNA test. Brett has undergone such a test and suggested that you get your male cousin tested. That seems to me to be the only way to proceed.
Since there is a record of a Walter Wilson and Wilhelmina Bell being parents of a Walter Bell or Wilson and that would prove an illegitimate child, we would still need to identify Walter Wilson being the same man as Walter “Cousin Wattie” Wilson, Cabinet Maker born 1798 in Hawick with the death in 1862. To help clarify the Baptism record of 1823, I await a response from my local family search center to see if the Walter Wilson listed on the document is my Walter Wilson. I'm interested to hear what this unbiased third party record holder has to say.
Allow me to point out that I am a disinterested party. I am not related to any of the people under discussion, and frankly it matters nothing to me whether or not you and Brett are related, or whether either or both of you are related to some famous person or other. I am only interested in solving this intriguing puzzle in a civilised manner.
Please tell me Brett is related to me with a bastard connection. Anybody?
Happy to oblige. In my opinion the primary evidence shows that Brett is related to you through a bastard connection.
-
EM
I support Forfarian's post. In my view, you need to consider making a public apology to Brett, and to RootsChat.
Like Forfarian and many many others here, we are disinterested, thus we strive to be fully informed, educated, without bias, and able to share information in a civilised polite manner.
JM
-
Regarding Reply #14, there was more than one Walter Wilson in Hawick at the time. Brett's illegitimate Gt. Grandfather could have been from Isabel Richardson's husband, Walter Wilson of 1821 in Hawick.
Walter Wilson married Isabella Richardson in 1821. They had quite a large family: Jane 1822; Walter 1824; Margaret 1827; Isabella 1829; James Donaldson 1831; John 1833; Elizabeth 1836 (from the Scotland's People index).
In the 1841 census there is a Wilson family in Hawick consisting of Walter, 49, baker; Isabella, 40; Jane, 15; Walter, 14; Margaret, 13; Isabella, 12; James, 9; John, 7; Elizabeth; 5; Agnes, 3; Jessey, 1. (From the transcription at https://freecen1.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl). Therefore Isabella Richardson's husband was not a cabinetmaker, therefore he is not the father of Wilhelmina Bell's son.
Also Walter Wilson, baker in Hawick, died on 10 September 1849, and his will was confirmed on 24 July 1851, so he cannot possibly be the father that Walter Wilson on his way to Australia wrote to in 1852.
I'm sure the FamilySearch Library in Utah will help sort it out.
Why ask them to 'sort it out' when all the original records are in Scotland, and most of them can be readily accessed online at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk? In fact, given that Walter Wilson's 1862 death certificate that I found there was news to you, have you ever actually looked at Scotland's People at all?
The Walter Wilson in Hawick is not yours, I am sorry to say. He was in Selkirk in 41 and 51.
In the 1851 census the only Walter Wilson in Selkirk was a 28-year-old master baker, born in England. He fits exactly with Wilhelmina Bell's son who in the following year emigrated to Australia. In the 1841 there are no Walter Wilsons at all listed in Selkirk. This is from FreeCEN and from the indexes at Scotland's People and FamilySearch. Therefore your source above appears to be giving you wrong information.
Further to this, the Jessie Wilson that Brett claims is my Jessie Hobkirk (nee Wilson) is according to him another illegitimate child of 7 between Walter Wilson and Wilhelmina Bell.
According to whom? In any case, it's easy to disprove. Jessie Wilson, widow of George Hobkirk, died in Hawick in 1913, parents Walter Wilson, master cabinetmaker, and Jessie Gray.
That coin he posted earlier is not to legitimate Jessie Hobkirk (nee Wilson) but to illegitimate Jessie Wilson.
That coin contains nothing that could have a bearing on the legitimacy or otherwise of Jessie Wilson or Hobkirk. And in any case how would her legitimacy or otherwise have any bearing on the parentage of Wilhelmina Bell's son? It's a complete red herring.
Walter Wilson fathered 6-7 children and then left while being married to a 36 year old Isabella Gray.
Wrong again. The Walter Wilson who married Isabella Gray did not leave, and if we are to believe your repeated assertions he fathered only one child, Janet or Jessie, born 1828 died 1913.
And by the way, the names Janet and Jessie are used interchangeably in Scotland, She was baptised Janet but known as Jessie/Jessey/Jessy for the rest of her life. Which reminds me that if you had bothered to look at the original baptism record on Scotland's People you would have had evidence to prove or disprove whether or not Walter Wilson and Janet or Jessie Grey or Gray were married.
-
So from what I can gather, Walter Snr. and Wilhemina Bell had Walter Wilson in April 1823. Born on the 5th and christened/baptised on the 6th of April in Cumberland. (See transcript of the extract further down).
Correct.
Walter Snr as mentioned in another post, was from Hawick, or was living there in July 1852 as Walter Jnr, mentions writing a letter to him then and to his mother Wilhemina Bell in Penrith.
Also correct.
Then Wilhemina marries Robert Elliot in 1824 and they have 6 children.
Correct again.
At least with this theory we dont have Walter Wilson Snr leading a double life LOL.
A reasonable inference, but I don't see any evidence that anyone claimed he did.
And yes, still a bit of theory here, but let's say Walter Senior and Wilhemina Bell never married.. And Wilhemina marries Robert Elliot in 1824 as you mentioned
Correct again. My, my, aren't we doing well!
And Walter Wilson Snr, if I have the correct Walter Wilson from Hawick, marries Isabella Richards son around 1824 and they have their first daughter Jane in 1825...
But now you are completely wrong. Walter Wilson and Isabella Richardson were married in 1821. The marriage record is at Scotland's People. Jane was baptised in Hawick on 11 October 1822. She is listed as aged 15 in the 1841 census because in that year the ages of people over 15 were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years.
Then Walter Wilson Jnr is simply illegitimate. Both his mother and father start new lives and families
Correct again.
which explains why at some point, Walter Wilson Junior is then living with the Hume family in Selkirk.
Where did that come from? Neither in the 1841 nor in the 1851 census is there any household in Selkirk including both a Walter Wilson and anyone by the name of Hume. (FreeCEN transcription but the SP index lists only the one Walter Wilson in Selkirk).
In any case, even if he was living with some other family, he would have been 18 on the day of the 1841, and many young men would have left home by that age to follow an apprenticeship.
I will chase up information on Walter Wilson Senior to see if we can in deed confirm that he was a baker by trade from the diaries etc.
Since I have proved conclusively that that Walter Wilson Sr was dead before Walter Wilson Jr wrote to his father in September 1852, you would be wasting your time. And you don't need to look further than the original of the 1841 census on Scotland's People to show that he was a baker.
You spent all this time and money researching and you didn't hire a professional geneologist before you claimed to be related to James Wilson, Economist?
That is a bit rich.
You didn't mention Scotland's People, and you seemed to think it was a great feat of achievement on my part to find the 1862 death certificate of Walter Wilson. You have not looked at any of the primary sources that would be a professional genealogist's first port of call in researching a client's connections to anyone famous or otherwise. Yet you accuse Brett of not having employed a professional, when you have clearly not done so either.
You even proclaim it as if it were something to be proud of!
No, I have not read any of it. I have done my own research through family books in private circulation, private family trees, and family members.
-
This is another addition to the pattern of levirate marriages in my family history.
Levirate marriages? Forced marriage of a woman to her sister's childless widower? Really?
First, you seem to be making the assumption that Isabella Gray was the sister of Janet or Jessie Grey. You have not a shred of evidence to back up that assumption.
Isabella Gray's parents, according to her marriage certificate, were James Gray and Margaret Rutherford. They were married in 1810 and had six children, not, apparently, including a Janet or Jessie.
Second, although it wasn't actually illegal to marry a deceased wife's sister in Scotland (it was definitely illegal in England and Wales), it was generally frowned on and discouraged by the Church of Scotland and later by the Free churches. See https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1889/apr/03/marriage-with-a-deceased-wifes-sister for a summary of the matter.
So while it is, just, possible that James Gray and Margaret Rutherford had a daughter Janet or Jessie whose baptism record has not survived, and who was old enough to marry and produce Janet or Jessie Wilson in 1828, it's even less likely that Isabella was forced into marriage at least 15 years after the death of Janet or Jessie.
-
Pigot's Directory for 1825-1826 lists two Walter Wilsons in business in Hawick. One a baker and the other a cabinetmaker. It would be reasonable to assume that the one cabinetmaker's business was that of the father (1770-1847) and son (1798-1862), and that he baker is the one married to Isabella Richardson. Pity that seems to be the earliest such directory available.
-
Brett, there are quite a few things that puzzle me about what has been said in this thread.
First, Handless Watt must have been 40 when he married in 1752, and 61 when his youngest recorded child, Katharine, was born in 1773. Are you sure that there isn't a generation missing?
Also, there is a gap in the Scotland's People baptisms from the marriage in 1752 until the first baptism, in 1759. Are there missing children?
StintonLomas says that there was at least one, Elizabeth or Betty, born 1753 and married to George Turnbull, and that they had 10 children. I can find 12 of the 10 children, but not the marriage. What is the evidence for this Betty Wilson being the daughter of Handless Wat?
(Haunless Wat's Grandson) had at least 3 children with 3 different women that I can find so far. The 3rd was around 1840 another male child who emigrated to New Zealand.
What was the name of this child and who was his mother?
You have posted two extracts from your family bible, so closely cropped that some of the information is cut off. Can you re-scan and post the whole page so that we can see what else it says, please?
There are references to Walter Wilson b 1823 writing to his mother, but you don't seem to have said that on this thread. Where did that come from?
There have also been mentions of six or seven more children born to Walter Wilson and Wilhelmina Bell. You didn't post that on this thread. Where did that come from? Is there some confusion with the 6 children Wilhelmina Bell had by her husband Robert Elliot?
-
This is one of several posts since I'm not sure how much text I can post at a time.
I didn't write this from the previous post, all of this was written by Brett on https://forum.familyhistory.uk.com/threads/wilson-and-bryden-victoria.24109/page-3 and I just pasted it in there for your review.
Brett states:
“Then Wilhemina marries Robert Elliot in 1824 and they have 6 children. Fergus may have named his child Walter Wilson in some attempt of elderly brother worship??? “
Please note it is Walter Wilson Elliot.
Barbara at familyhistory.uk writes:
“The Walter Wilson in Hawick is not yours, I am sorry to say. He was in Selkirk in 41 and 51. “
Walter Wilson Jnr (Brett's Gt. Grandfather who left from Selkirk to Melbourne was the illegitimate child of Wilhelmina Bell and Walter Wilson, Baker in Ha (ick not Walter Wilson, Cabinetmaker) who was married to Isabella Richardson). Walter Wilson, Baker in Hawick is not a member of my Wilson family.
No Brett's Walter Wilson had a Sister, Jessie Wilson but it was not the Jessie Wilson married to Hobkirk. Brett writes: " Walter Snr. and Wilhelmina Bell had 6 or 7 children: Walter Wilson Jnr.(Brett's illegitimate Gt. Grandfather), Fergus Wilson, Ann Wilson, James Wilson, Jessie Wilson, Wilhemina Wilson, and possibly an Isabella Wilson also. At least, these siblings are all listed as such in the front cover of Walter Wilson's (my GGG Grandfather) Bible, of which I now have a photo of ;-)" So, this is not Jessie Hobkirk (nee Wilson), this is Jessie Wilson, Daughter of the Baker named Walter Wilson in Hawick.
Forfarian, I think you need to see things from my perspective for a moment. I am a family member. I have nothing to prove. Brett has boasted all over the internet that he is related to James Wilson, Economist and I would like to know how he makes that claim. We are in touch with the extended members of the family and know their whereabouts. There have been books written documenting the family history, there is the family tree. The tree is published in one of the books by a real publishing company. It's not some piece of paper I had lying around. The tree was hand drawn by Lucy Ann Wilson in 1890, a prudish Victorian (1853-1944 and Granddaughter of William Wilson). The book that contains the family tree sans Brett's bastard line is The Wilson Story by Cynthia Anne Ormond Wilson(1913). She is Sir James Glenny Wilson's Granddaughter in New Zealand. Her father was Walter Wilson born 17 September 1796, Hawick.
None of those books mention a baker or a bastard line in Australia. I only started researching my family since this imposter decided to advertise his pedigree which is false. He did not say all over the internet that he was the bastard cousin of James Wilson, Economist five times removed he said he was the legitimate cousin. He is not even an illegitimate cousin five times removed. His bastard connection is to that of Walter Wilson, Snr. Baker in Hawick who is not a member of my family. First of all, his Gt. Grandfather, Walter Wilson, Jnr., Baker in Hawick was not a member of my family. Secondly, as you pointed out he died before being able to have written correspondence. Finally, I'm not the one bragging about my ancestors, Brett is and their not even his ancestors. He has attached himself to my family, specifically James Wilson, Economist and he is of no relation at all. The onus is on Brett to prove who he is and how he is related...and that is not possible. I am the one who is owed an apology.
-
Jessie Wilson (1828-1913, Hawick) married George Hobkirk, Baker and Corn Merchant (1816-1877, Slitrig Villa). They were married 11 Jan 1849, Hawick.
It is evident that the Jessie Wilson Brett mentions and has a coin bearing the name is from Walter Wilson Snr, Baker in Hawick and Wilhelmina Bell or Robert Elliot. Who knows what went on there.
Like you, I am not impressed to be the Niece of James Wilson, Economist but somehow Brett wants to announce that he is his legitimate fifth cousin and has advertised this fiction worldwide. I just don't like being lied to and I strongly believe that Brett has lied to me and the world. This is an interesting puzzle but I believe now that Brett is surely barking up the wrong tree, pun intended and his Australian Great Grandfather was the son of Walter Wilson Snr., Baker, in Hawick and not part of my family. Again, Brett is the one who needs to rescind his false claims and make a public apology.
Forfarian, you wrote:
“In the 1841 census there is a Wilson family in Hawick consisting of Walter, 49, baker; Isabella, 40; Jane, 15; Walter, 14; Margaret, 13; Isabella, 12; James, 9; John, 7; Elizabeth; 5; Agnes, 3; Jessey, 1. (From the transcription at https://freecen1.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl). Therefore Isabella Richardson's husband was not a cabinetmaker, therefore he is not the father of Wilhelmina Bell's son. “
Also Walter Wilson, baker in Hawick, died on 10 September 1849, and his will was confirmed on 24 July 1851, so he cannot possibly be the father that Walter Wilson on his way to Australia wrote to in 1852.
What proof do you have that Wilhelmine Bell's son's father was a Cabinet maker? Walter Wilson, the Baker in Hawick married to Isabella Richardson had an illegitimate child with Wilhelmine Bell. Brett's Gt. Grandfather is not the Cabinet maker's son, he's the Baker's son or he's somebody else's son. He is not part of my family.
Yes, I have looked at Scotland's People. If you take another look at my family tree snapshot that I posted, I had added his death date of 1862 in red. I have also purchased many certificates from Scotland's People and I am able to look up my own birth certificate there too. It's a link by link thing. I can trace all my ancestors that way. In fact, I have been working backwards as well as forwards regarding the generations and I have come very far with the help of the Gunn Clan, the Branxholme records and other means. As far as hiring a genealogist, again I'm not the one with anything to prove. I'm being honest about what I know and my family history.
Walter Wilson was a common name, so it begets scrutiny.
You wrote:
Walter Wilson fathered 6-7 children and then left while being married to a 36 year old Isabella Gray.
I was being sarcastic. Of course, he didn't leave her.
YOU ARE WRONG:
Walter Wilson born 1798 cabinetmaker High St. son of Walter Wilson senior and was known as 'Cousin Wattie'. He was the father of Mrs. Hobkirk of Slitrig Villa. He inherited his business from his father and being comfortably off left much of the running of his business to his journeyman John Rae. 'Cousin Wattie' was a
-
keen fisherman and often stayed at country inns where in the evenings he became the life and soul of the party with his story telling. He died 9 May 1862 aged 64.
You wrote:
Pigot's Directory for 1825-1826 lists two Walter Wilsons in business in Hawick. One a baker and the other a cabinetmaker. It would be reasonable to assume that the one cabinetmaker's business was that of the father (1770-1847) and son (1798-1862), and that he baker is the one married to Isabella Richardson. Pity that seems to be the earliest such directory available.
Brett wrote:
“which explains why at some point, Walter Wilson Junior is then living with the Hume family in Selkirk. “
You wrote:
“Where did that come from? Neither in the 1841 nor in the 1851 census is there any household in Selkirk including both a Walter Wilson and anyone by the name of Hume. (FreeCEN transcription but the SP index lists only the one Walter Wilson in Selkirk).
In any case, even if he was living with some other family, he would have been 18 on the day of the 1841, and many young men would have left home by that age to follow an apprenticeship.”
You also write:
“Since I have proved conclusively that that Walter Wilson Sr was dead before Walter Wilson Jr wrote to his father in September 1852, you would be wasting your time. And you don't need to look further than the original of the 1841 census on Scotland's People to show that he was a baker. “
You also write:
“In the 1851 census the only Walter Wilson in Selkirk was a 28-year-old master baker, born in England. He fits exactly with Wilhelmina Bell's son who in the following year emigrated to Australia. In the 1841 there are no Walter Wilsons at all listed in Selkirk. This is from FreeCEN and from the indexes at Scotland's People and FamilySearch. Therefore your source above appears to be giving you wrong information. “
THIS MUST BE BRETT'S GT. GRANDFATHER – Mystery Solved!
-
“The Walter Wilson in Hawick is not yours, I am sorry to say. He was in Selkirk in 41 and 51.
I repeat: there was no Walter Wilson in Selkirk in 1841. In 1851 Walter Wilson, aged 28, baker, was in Selkirk. If you don't believe me, go to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk and see for yourself by viewing the original document. Barbara or whoever told you that was giving you wrong information.
Walter Wilson Jnr (Brett's Gt. Grandfather who left from Selkirk to Melbourne was the illegitimate child of Wilhelmina Bell and Walter Wilson, Baker in Hawick not Walter Wilson, Cabinetmaker) who was married to Isabella Richardson).
Walter Wilson who went to Australia was the son of Walter Wilson, CABINETMAKER in Hawick. His baptism record is perfectly clear and legible.
Walter Wilson, Baker in Hawick is not a member of my Wilson family.
He is probably some sort of cousin of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, but that is neither here nor there. The point is that he is NOT the father of Wilhelmina Bell's son, born in 1823.
1. He was married in 1821 and had children by his wife in 1822 and 1824.
2. He was a baker and Wilhelmina's son's father was a cabinetmaker.
3. His son Walter was born in 1824 and was living with his parents in 1851.
4. He died in 1849, three years before Wilhelmina's son wrote a letter to his father in Hawick.
5. His son Walter Wiilson, born 1824, was a baker, living in Hawick in 1861 with his mother and three siblings, AFTER Wilhemina's son had emigrated
No Brett's Walter Wilson had a Sister, Jessie Wilson but it was not the Jessie Wilson married to Hobkirk. Brett writes: " Walter Snr. and Wilhelmina Bell had 6 or 7 children: Walter Wilson Jnr.(Brett's illegitimate Gt. Grandfather), Fergus Wilson, Ann Wilson, James Wilson, Jessie Wilson, Wilhemina Wilson, and possibly an Isabella Wilson also.
Those siblings are not Wilsons, they are Elliots; Wilhelmina's children by her husband Robert Elliot. That is why I have asked Brett to post an image of the whole of the page of the family bible.
So, this is not Jessie Hobkirk (nee Wilson), this is Jessie Wilson, Daughter of the Baker named Walter Wilson in Hawick.
The death certificate of Jessie Hobkirk, née Wilson, says that her parents are Walter Wilson, master cabinetmaker, and Jessie Wilson, maiden surname Grey.
Jessie Wilson, daughter of Walter Wilson, baker in Hawick, was one year old in the 1841 census. Therefore she was born in 1839/1840, and was not old enough to marry in 1849.
Forfarian, I think you need to see things from my perspective for a moment.
Why? What I see is you clinging doggedly to information that is just plain wrong in a desperate attempt to prove that Brett is not descended from an illegitimate line of your family. Something it is impossible to prove either way unless possibly by DNA.
I really don't care whether or not Brett and you are related to one another or to these assorted 'famous' people, as neither of you is related to me at all. I do care that you are using misinformation and a wilful disregard for FACTS in a vain attempt to further your vendetta, and that you have not bothered to check any of your information by looking up the original records on Scotland's People as any reasonably compenent genealogist would have done.
-
“In the 1851 census the only Walter Wilson in Selkirk was a 28-year-old master baker, born in England. He fits exactly with Wilhelmina Bell's son who in the following year emigrated to Australia. In the 1841 there are no Walter Wilsons at all listed in Selkirk. This is from FreeCEN and from the indexes at Scotland's People and FamilySearch. Therefore your source above appears to be giving you wrong information. “
THIS MUST BE BRETT'S GT. GRANDFATHER – Mystery Solved!
The question at issue is which Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker in Hawick, was the father of Walter Wilson, illegitimate son of Wilhelmina Wilson, born in Cumberland in 1823, who emigrated to Australia, married Janet Brydon and eventually became Brett's ancestor. The 1851 census says nothing about that.
-
Moderator comment:
It is unfortunate that this point has been reached. It is perhaps time to agree to disagree.
Topic locked.
-
In doing a Google search on the Wilson Family history of Hawick, I stumbled upon an exchange between E. M. Wilson and Forfarian that I guess got a little chippy and the moderator ended the forum. In that exchange, E. M. Wilson stated, among other things, " There have been books written documenting the family history, there is the family tree. The tree is published in one of the books by a real publishing company. It's not some piece of paper I had lying around. The tree was hand drawn by Lucy Ann Wilson in 1890, a prudish Victorian (1853-1944 and Granddaughter of William Wilson)." That really caught my attention as it so happens that a beautiful copy of that hand drawn tree was framed and graced my grandfather's house for years here in California until he passed away in the 1990's. I joined the rootschat to see if I could reach out to E.M. and compare notes. My grandfather was the grandson of Elizabeth Ann Wilson - center top leaf on said tree. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
-
Hello TTLovesKwi,
I have unlocked the topic and merged your reply so that the poster will be notified of the reply.
Regards
Sarah :)
-
Here's a photo of the Wilson Family Tree that has been in California for approximately 100 years.
-
Hi TTLovesKwi,
Might you be able to draw a circle around Elizabeth Ann Wilson in the tree, as I am struggling to see her there.
This image of the family tree is one that I scanned from a book called "The Wilson Story" by Cynthia Wierzbicka who was descended from Sir James Glenny Wilson who emigrated to New Zealand from Hawick, Scotland. The book was published in 1973.
The notes on the image are mine, and the X denotes my Great, Great, Great Grandfather's branch "Walter Wilson" 1798-1862 Cabinet Maker of Hawick.
I would be interested in knowing more about your Wilson family TTLovesKwi.
I had some Wilson family that ended up in California.
I also have some Y-DNA connections to male Wilson's in California at present, but they are likely connected to myself from about 400 years ago, so the DNA experts suggest.
Thanks
Brett
-
Hi Brett,
Attached is an enlargement of the image with Elizabeth's leaf denoted in red. BTW, I have a grand total of one week's experience doing this type of research. But I have made significant progress thanks to the Scotland peoples website. I have found most of the records associated with the Wilson family from the base of the tree through Elizabeth's leaf.
A brief history of our branch: Elizabeth Ann Wilson married William Howitt Wood (born in Nottinghamshire) in Wilton in 1900. I believe that Elizabeth Ann Wilson's father was William Richard Wilson, who passed away in Wilton in 1896. They had one child - William Wilson Wood born 1902. They immigrated to Massachusetts sometime around 1907. William Wilson Wood attended the University Of Massachusetts and upon graduation moved to California to pursue a job opportunity. He married Mary Bernice Wood and they had three children: Mary Ann Wood, Nancy Beth (Wood) Hemstreet, and William Wilson Wood Jr.
William Wilson Wood Jr. is my father.
As mentioned before, the Family Tree was framed and hung in WWW Sr.'s house until his death in 1996. It now belongs to my cousin. He took a photo of it and sent to to me. Until this week, I had always assumed that this version was a hand drawn original. As you mentioned, it appears to have been part of a book. I'm guessing that the author also had a copy of the original. What is still interesting, is that I think it's safe to assume that our family's copy came over with them in 1907. And, it should be noted, our copy also has the hand drawn "X" on your relative's branch.
All of it I find fascinating. Any comments are appreciated
Tim
-
Thank you, that is interesting, and I am not sure why your tree has an X on it as I drew an X on the one in this thread. Attached is a photo of William Richardson Wilson's father: John Wilson of LadyLaw (Hawick). BIRTH 1806 • Hawick, Roxburghshire, Scotland
DEATH 1886 (Buried at the old Wilton burial ground).
-
I am trying to upload a photo of John Wilson but it is coming up as an error?
-
I am trying to upload a photo of John Wilson but it is coming up as an error?
Try giving it a different file name
-
Thank you, that is interesting, and I am not sure why your tree has an X on it as I drew an X on the one in this thread. Attached is a photo of William Richardson Wilson's father: John Wilson of LadyLaw (Hawick). BIRTH 1806 • Hawick, Roxburghshire, Scotland
DEATH 1886 (Buried at the old Wilton burial ground).
See the discussion at reply #66 to 71 or thereabouts.
JM
-
Thanks MAJM.
John Wilson of LadyLaw (Hawick). BIRTH 1806 • Hawick, Roxburghshire, Scotland
DEATH 1886 (Buried at the old Wilton burial ground).
-
I just went and got the book and have taken a photo of the tree in the book "The Wilson Story". There is no X on it, as I drew the X on a photocopy of same, and I wrote Lucy Wilson 1890, as that is when it was drawn up for Lucy by a firm in Glasgow. See attached ;-)
-
Curiouser and curiouser ....
So how did EMW and TTLK obtain copy with that X marked on it?
JM
-
Hi MajM,
EMW got the copy from me ;-)
Brett
-
Dear Tim,
The family tree that was marked with an X came from my private collection. It was marked by Aunt Cynthia because the family line did not continue. There were no fruits from that branch.
Sincerely,
Mike
-
All,
I might have caused some confusion. Here's an enlargement of the image showing the "X" on our copy.
-
Brett,
Thank you for the image and info. I'll work on reconciling that info with other data and see what I come up with. You gave a new variation of William R Wilson's name - "William Richardson Wilson."
I've been assuming that his middle name was "Richard", at least partially based on the data I pulled from the Scotlandspeople site. I've attached a screen shot of that data. But, based on other data from that same site, it appears that WRW's grandmother was Betty Richardson, so "Richardson" as a middle name makes sense. Is this your opinion?
-
I've been assuming that his middle name was "Richard", at least partially based on the data I pulled from the Scotlandspeople site. I've attached a screen shot of that data.
That's only the index listing. You can view the full original document at modest cost, which will clarify whether it is Richard or Richardson.
-
Thank you Forfarian. I've not yet taken that approach, not just because I'm cheap, but because I want to be somewhat methodical in which I download. I've been dumping all of the Scotlandpeople results into a spreadsheet and I'm close to 200 entries. I use the spreadsheet approach to re-sort based on date and event. As I mentioned previously, I'm a neophyte at this.
BTW, are there any suggestions on where one could acquire the book that has been mentioned several times? It appears to be out of print, and I've not found an online copy (yet).
-
TTLK, I have sent you a personal message with a possible source for the book.
-
Hi
Does anyone have any earlier information about William Beck who married into the Wilson family?
William Beck
Sex : Male
Age : ?
Occupation : Hosier
Notes :
An Englishman
Married
Margaret Wilson born 1759 Daughter of Father : Walter Wilson Mother : Catherine Oliver
Children : 1781 Katharine Douglas Beck
1780 William Beck
Sally Trotter Beck
Peggy Beck
Betty Farquhar Beck
1785 John Beck
Nanny Thorburn Beck
My tree has led me back to them via Sally Trotter Beck, William and Margaret's daughter.
The info source for the above was a correspondent across the pond.
-
@TTLovesKwi
That is quite a coincidence TTLovesKwi, that your Aunt marked the tree with an X as that line did not continue, however, Lucy Ann Wilson, who had the tree made up in 1890, may not have been aware, that my Great Great Grandfather emigrated to Australia in 1852 and she was not born until 1853. So the line did in fact continue.
Did you see the photo of John Wilson? I also have a photo of his and his wife's headstone/monument that I took when in Hawick, Scotland in 2014.
Yes, William Richardson Wilson is the correct full name. That William Richardson Wilson, son of John Wilson, also had a son named William Richardson Wilson JNR. 1869-1902. He died relatively young, whilst on business in the USA of pneumonia from memory?
William Richardson Wilson JNR was the 1894 Cornet for the annual Hawick Common Riding.
Photo attached.
Brett
-
Hi
Does anyone have any earlier information about William Beck who married into the Wilson family?
William Beck
Sex : Male
Age : ?
Occupation : Hosier
Notes :
An Englishman
Married
Margaret Wilson born 1759 Daughter of Father : Walter Wilson Mother : Catherine Oliver
Children : 1781 Katharine Douglas Beck
1780 William Beck
Sally Trotter Beck
Peggy Beck
Betty Farquhar Beck
1785 John Beck
Nanny Thorburn Beck
My tree has led me back to them via Sally Trotter Beck, William and Margaret's daughter.
The info source for the above was a correspondent across the pond.
@StintonLomas
Not sure if this will help, but you may find it informative all the same. Walter Wilson AKA Handless Wat as he was born with just one hand. He and Catherine Oliver were my 5 x Great Grandparents.
William Beck (18th/19th C.) from Carlisle, he was apprenticed to Bailie Hardie in 1775. Afterwards he started out on his own, and by 1818 was producing 41,000 pairs of hose per year. He became one of the most popular employers in Hawick, being the only manufacturer who refused to lower wages during the dispute that led to the ‘Lang Stand Oot’ of 1822.
There is a record of 1788 (with the Board of Trustees for Manufactures) of him asking for funds to purchase a frame for ribbed stockings. One of his frame knitting apprentices was John Pringle, half brother of Robert, founder of Pringle’s. He is still recorded as a stocking manufacturer on the High Street in Pigot’s 1825/6 directory. His firm was declared bankrupt in 1821, but must have recovered. However, it collapsed in 1826, possibly related to bank failures at the time.
A sale of his company’s and personal effects took place in the Subscription Rooms in late 1827 (including the sale of his share in those Rooms). Since his household possessions were also being sold off, then probably he died in 1827.
An engraved cup presented to him by his employees in 1819 is in the Museum. His stocking-shop was off the back of 21 High Street, and he is marked as owner there on Wood’s 1824 map. In 1779 he married Margaret (or ‘Peggy’) Wilson, daughter of Walter Wilson (known as ‘Handless Wat’) in Hawick.
Their children included: William (b.1780), who died unmarried; Katherine (b.1781), who married Robert Douglas in 1800; Sarah (b.1783), who must have died young; John (b.1783), possibly a twin of Sarah; Sarah or Sally (b.1785), who married George Trotter; Margaret or ‘Peggy’ (b.1786), who married John Routledge and secondly M. Thompson; Betty, who married G. Farquhar; and Nanny (or perhaps Nancy), who married John Thorburn.
He was said to be fond of good eating, and his house was a favourite eating place for friends and relations. In later life his wife was known as ‘Auld Peggy Beck’. William Beck JNR (b.1780) elder son of manufacturer William. He was a hosier and was Cornet in 1808. Like his father he was listed as a freeman of Carlisle in an election of 1816. He died unmarried.
Beck’s (beks) n. William Beck’s stockingshop. The building was constructed about 1800 and marks a transition between the cottage and factory industries. The firm collapsed in 1826 following bank failures. The upper floor of the building has small regularly sized and spaced windows, each of which would have provided light for a single stocking frame. It is hidden at the back of 21 High Street, and was converted into a dwelling by Dennis Rodwell for the National Trust for Scotland in 1991 as part of the ‘Little Houses’ scheme. It is a grade C listed building.
Courtesy of "A Hawick Word Book" by Professor Douglas Scott (You can find this online). I am mentioned in it as a contributor.
http://www.astro.ubc.ca/people/scott/book.pdf
Brett
-
TTLK, I have sent you a personal message with a possible source for the book.
The 1973 book "The Wilson Story" would be fairly rare I would think, and the 1983 Postscript (11 pages) would be even rarer I would think. Some libraries may have a copy. I got mine from the author's daughter in New Zealand. We did a book swap, but I got the feeling that that book may have been amongst the last of them?
The Postscript shows a portrait of my GGGG Grandfather Walter Wilson (1770-1847) but incorrectly suggest that the portrait is of his older brother William Wilson (1764-1832).
You may need to scroll on the attached image, as it is quite wide. I have included a pic to the right of the photo from the postscript also as a collage, or comparison so to speak.
Brett
-
One of the most important features of the RootsChat community is collaboration based on trust, respect, integrity, and common purpose.
Sadly, I note that to me, that there seems to be something fundamentally wrong.
At reply #66 there's that X mark, which EMW posted, along with computer generated red text.
At reply #96 there's an X Mark plus handwriting lower right hand area.
At reply #104, no X mark, no handwriting
At reply #108, X mark, zoomed re reply #96.
So at reply # 105 I asked a question....
BUT now I simply say ...
It is the same X mark each time. It is not a mark madet 100 years ago. It is a more recent mark. The handwriting on the document at reply #96 is NOT in the style of 100 years ago, and is BLOCK HANDWRITTEN, and the numbers are as taught starting from the 1960s. Most likely it is written using a biro.
I say no more.
JM.
Dear Tim,
The family tree that was marked with an X came from my private collection. It was marked by Aunt Cynthia because the family line did not continue. There were no fruits from that branch.
Sincerely,
Mike
-
Hi @MAJM
The image of the family Tree that has been shared here, is from the Book, The Wilson Story, published in 1973 by Cynthia Anne Ormond Wierzbicka (Nee Wilson).
In the book image (and you can see the crease in the image from the book), there is no X nor is there handwriting. I scanned the image from the book and printed it.
I then marked the X on it with pencil to denote my branch of the tree for my GGG Grandfather "Walter Wilson" Cabinet Maker from Hawick (1798-1862).
I also wrote By Lucy Ann Wilson 1890.
I did this, so when I re-scanned it or photographed it, it would be easy to see what line I was talking about and to also note who got the tree printed it up and when "Lucy Ann Wilson" of Hawick, Scotland.
This is my handwriting (Print writing) and not my best cursive writing as that has declined due to computer use.
I sent the scan of the tree with the X on it and the handwriting to E.M Wilson and I had already sent it to Professor Douglas Scott (Astrophysics - Canada) who was born and raised in Hawick, Scotland. Douglas knows more about the people, names and places surrounding Hawick and the Scottish Borders than probably anyone. http://www.astro.ubc.ca/people/scott/book.pdf
I am also mentioned in the credits of this book under Thenks (Thanks)
Oh, and spot on regarding writing styles (Born in 69) ;-)
If there is another copy of the tree with an X marked on it for some reason, then it would be interesting to see it.
Reply #104 was a new photo that I took from the book at the time of the post ;-)
And here is a photo taken just now with the Book, The Tree, My Mac computer and this very RootsChat forum open on my computer in Sunny Melbourne, Australia. Please see attached (Below).
One of the most important features of the RootsChat community is collaboration based on trust, respect, integrity, and common purpose.
Sadly, I note that to me, that there seems to be something fundamentally wrong.
At reply #66 there's that X mark, which EMW posted, along with computer generated red text.
At reply #96 there's an X Mark plus handwriting lower right hand area.
At reply #104, no X mark, no handwriting
At reply #108, X mark, zoomed re reply #96.
So at reply # 105 I asked a question....
BUT now I simply say ...
It is the same X mark each time. It is not a mark madet 100 years ago. It is a more recent mark. The handwriting on the document at reply #96 is NOT in the style of 100 years ago, and is BLOCK HANDWRITTEN, and the numbers are as taught starting from the 1960s. Most likely it is written using a biro.
I say no more.
JM.
Dear Tim,
The family tree that was marked with an X came from my private collection. It was marked by Aunt Cynthia because the family line did not continue. There were no fruits from that branch.
Sincerely,
Mike
-
Thanks Brett.
Waiting now for
..... Tim and Mike .... possibly in different time zones?
JM
-
In doing a Google search on the Wilson Family history of Hawick, I stumbled upon an exchange between E. M. Wilson and Forfarian that I guess got a little chippy and the moderator ended the forum. In that exchange, E. M. Wilson stated, among other things, " There have been books written documenting the family history, there is the family tree. The tree is published in one of the books by a real publishing company. It's not some piece of paper I had lying around. The tree was hand drawn by Lucy Ann Wilson in 1890, a prudish Victorian (1853-1944 and Granddaughter of William Wilson)." That really caught my attention as it so happens that a beautiful copy of that hand drawn tree was framed and graced my grandfather's house for years here in California until he passed away in the 1990's. I joined the rootschat to see if I could reach out to E.M. and compare notes. My grandfather was the grandson of Elizabeth Ann Wilson - center top leaf on said tree. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Just copying some posts
JM
-
Here's a photo of the Wilson Family Tree that has been inf California for approximately 100 years.
No, that's not been in California for approximately 100 years.
JM
-
Dear Tim,
The family tree that was marked with an X came from my private collection. It was marked by Aunt Cynthia because the family line did not continue. There were no fruits from that branch.
Sincerely,
Mike
Hi Mike,
I take it that you are a cousin of Karola yes? Karola sent me a copy of the book some years ago.
Here it is photographed today.
Brett Wilson
-
To All on this post.
Thank you for taking the time to reply to my inquires. I appreciate it.
I'm in California. Sadly, I've never been to Scotland although I hope to rectify that some day.
To answer at least a few of the questions.
1. I assumed that our family's framed copy of the family tree was both an original and must have been brought over to the US when my Great Grandfather emigrated here in 1907. Clearly that assumption was wrong. However, I still cling to the belief that it has been in my family's possession since I was a child and loved looking at it at my Grandparents house (since at least the 1960s). But that contradicts what has been stated here. Quantumleap777 said that his Aunt Cynthia marked it. And I also saw an entry from Brettmaximus where he states he marked it. Any further insight into who did what, and when was it done would be appreciated.
2. Which leads to the question: how did our branch of the family here in California end up with a copy? And when?
2. Brett was kind of enough to post images of Walter Wilson. Thank you for that. Again, I need to reconcile the dates that he presented with the dates I have from the tree and from the Scotlandpeoples website.
Again - thank you all.
Tim
-
All,
Attached is the Wilson Family tree I sketched out of our lineage. I've not updated it yet with data from this thread, but thought I'd share with you nonetheless.
Any comments are more than welcome
Tim
-
Here's a photo of the Wilson Family Tree that has been in California for approximately 100 years.
Tim,
That photo you uploaded .... did you take it?
JM
-
Hi JM,
My cousin took the photo at my request. He has the framed copy at his place in Los Angeles.
Tim
-
Hi JM,
My cousin took the photo at my request. He has the framed copy at his place in Los Angeles.
Tim
And so you are effectively saying that that framed copy includes the hand writing in the lower right hand corner
JM
-
Dear Tim,
The family tree that was marked with an X came from my private collection. It was marked by Aunt Cynthia because the family line did not continue. There were no fruits from that branch.
Sincerely,
Mike
Mike,
re your Aunt Cynthia,
Do you know why she did not mark any other apparently non fruiting branches on that tree?
JM
-
JM,
Precisely. It has the handwritten comment "By Lucy Ann Wilson Feb 1890" as well as the "X" previously mentioned.
Tim
-
JM,
Precisely. It has the handwritten comment "By Lucy Ann Wilson Feb 1890" as well as the "X" previously mentioned.
Tim
Yes, and so you need to accept that that handwriting is NOT Lucy's nor was it written on that document in 1890.
There was a discussion about it earlier in this thread, long before you joined.
You could consider the info on that tree as an AID to help you to do your own research, but you need to recognise it may well contain flaws or may not be fully developed.
If you are seaching internationally, it can be a good habit to refrain from US date conventions, and write the letters for the month ... eg 12 Feb 2021 or Feb 12, 2021.
So if displaying your work in progress, online, in a public forum like RChat, You will likely need to have confidence in your own research, and have alreadu obtained some official records, and primary source records, and have become less reliant on secondary sources or on indexes.
Just my opinion of course, but the handwritten comment on that tree is likely to be a 21st century note by a researcher who is attributing the info on that tree to Lucy, and dating it to Feb 1890.
JM.
-
JM,
Thank you for the advice, I mean that sincerely.
I do not believe that the "Lucy..." handwritten note was done in the 21st century. I'll go contact my remaining relatives and see if anyone has any insight into the history of how we came into possession of that specific copy.
The mystery continues.
Tim
-
Hi TTLovesKwi,
Might you be able to draw a circle around Elizabeth Ann Wilson in the tree, as I am struggling to see her there.
This image of the family tree is one that I scanned from a book called "The Wilson Story" by Cynthia Wierzbicka who was descended from Sir James Glenny Wilson who emigrated to New Zealand from Hawick, Scotland. The book was published in 1973.
The notes on the image are mine, and the X denotes my Great, Great, Great Grandfather's branch "Walter Wilson" 1798-1862 Cabinet Maker of Hawick.
I would be interested in knowing more about your Wilson family TTLovesKwi.
I had some Wilson family that ended up in California.
I also have some Y-DNA connections to male Wilson's in California at present, but they are likely connected to myself from about 400 years ago, so the DNA experts suggest.
Thanks
Brett
Brett says HE wrote those words.
JM,
Thank you for the advice, I mean that sincerely.
I do not believe that the "Lucy..." handwritten note was done in the 21st century. I'll go contact my remaining relatives and see if anyone has any insight into the history of how we came into possession of that specific copy.
The mystery continues.
Tim
I see no mystery, only misunderstanding.
JM
-
Attached is a copy of my email sent to Professor Douglas Scott (Astro Physics) in Canada.
Douglas is from Hawick, Scotland and he is also the author of "A Hawick Word Book" which is a document comprising more than 3,000 pages on the people, the places and words of Hawick and the Scottish Borders in general.
The email I sent, was of a scan or photograph of the tree from the book "The Wilson Story", which I marked an X on my family line and I wrote "By Lucy Ann Wilson 1890".
I sent this email on the 5th of June, 2016 to Douglas Scott. I had not come into contact with E.M Wilson at that point, infact, I believe it was September 2016 when I was introduced to E.M Wilson via Alastair Redpath of Project Hawick.
The book with the tree inside the front cover, covering the front cover and the first page of the book horizontally (the crease is clearly visible), was kindly sent to me by Karola (daughter of the author, Cynthia Wierzbicka nee Wilson) from New Zealand and my email records show that I emailed Karola on the 16th of Feb, 2015 to thank her and tell her that the book had arrived.
Brett Wilson
-
Thank you Brett.
You may need to dedact email addresses from that image.
JM
-
Roger that, I shall delete the post, remove the email addresses and repost.
-
New file name ;D ;D
ADD
Lucy Ann WILSON 1853-1944.
JM
-
Done, I blurred out the email addresses and renamed the file. I removed the previous attachment and uploaded the revised image. Thanks MAJM
-
Mr Geggle tells me that Ballpoint pens in the USA date from 1945. I cannot find a date for their introduction to Scotland, but I am sure Lucy never contemplated any discussion about if she had written on a document that was published 1973, or transmitted by email in this century. I rather suspect that her hand would be full of flourishes , with sweeping tails, and clear up and down strokes, with quill and personalised bond paper. Afterall she was a spinster of independent means, so had learnt to read and write in the 1860s.
JM
-
JM, Brett, All,
Let me begin by offering my sincere apologies for not having my facts in place and verified. Upon further research I have found out the answer to what was so mystifying (at least to me).
I have stated that the copy of the Wilson Family tree has been in California for decades. That turns out to be a true statement. The story unfolds thusly...
I had asked my cousin, who I was under the impression possessed the framed Wilson Family tree that had been on my Grandfather's wall for decades, for a digital copy of said family tree. He then sent us an image. That is the image I've been sharing. After all of the discussion on Rootschat, I asked my cousin for any insights into as much as he knows about the history of that copy...
So...
He replied that it's his sister that actually has the framed family tree. But he had been doing genealogy research on our shared family history and had found a digital copy of the same tree! Since it was the same family tree, he sent that to us (not mentioning the circumstances). That completely explains why I shared Brett's image.
As I await my other cousin's input on her copy of the family tree, I wanted to share this update with all. Although I should stop making assumptions, am I allowed to assume that we do possess an early copy of the family tree print?
Thanks for the help.
Tim
-
@MAJM this is certainly my handwriting in print by pencil, and I would have made this note between the date of receiving it in the Book in Feb 2015 and emailing a copy to Professor Douglas Scott in SEP 2016. ;D ;D
Attached is another photo of the tree, taken by Tony Wilson of Hawick who is my 5th cousin, 5 x removed.
Note that there is no handwritten note or an X on his copy of the tree.
He sent took this photo on the 21st of June, 2014. Which was when I was in Hawick for 3 months studying family history and attending the annual Common Riding events.
The tree that Tony photographed is likely to be one of the original copies of the tree circulated to various family members circa 1890, as Tony also has family bibles and old letters dating back to the early 1800's (originals).
Here is some of the meta-data from that photograph :o
Make SAMSUNG
Model SAMSUNG ES74,ES75,ES78 / VLUU ES75,ES78
Orientation Horizontal (normal)
XResolution 96
YResolution 96
ResolutionUnit inches
ModifyDate 2014:06:21 11:02:01
YCbCrPositioning Co-sited
Copyright COPYRIGHT, 2010
ExposureTime 1/90
FNumber 3.5
ExposureProgram Program AE
ISO 100
ExifVersion 0220
DateTimeOriginal 2046:12:09 11:59:48
CreateDate 2046:12:09 11:59:48
ComponentsConfiguration Y, Cb, Cr, -
CompressedBitsPerPixel 1.951827095
ShutterSpeedValue 1/76
ApertureValue 3.5
ExposureCompensation 0
MaxApertureValue 3.5
MeteringMode Multi-segment
LightSource Unknown
Flash Off, Did not fire
Regards
Brett Wilson
-
Tim, I have not ever knowingly met any member of RChat, but if one day you happen to be in New South Wales or if one day I happen to be in California, I am sure I would be pleased to meet you and chat about family history being the best hobby, a hobby for a lifetime.
JM.
-
JM, Brett, All,
Let me begin by offering my sincere apologies for not having my facts in place and verified. Upon further research I have found out the answer to what was so mystifying (at least to me).
I have stated that the copy of the Wilson Family tree has been in California for decades. That turns out to be a true statement. The story unfolds thusly...
I had asked my cousin, who I was under the impression possessed the framed Wilson Family tree that had been on my Grandfather's wall for decades, for a digital copy of said family tree. He then sent us an image. That is the image I've been sharing. After all of the discussion on Rootschat, I asked my cousin for any insights into as much as he knows about the history of that copy...
So...
He replied that it's his sister that actually has the framed family tree. But he had been doing genealogy research on our shared family history and had found a digital copy of the same tree! Since it was the same family tree, he sent that to us (not mentioning the circumstances). That completely explains why I shared Brett's image.
As I await my other cousin's input on her copy of the family tree, I wanted to share this update with all. Although I should stop making assumptions, am I allowed to assume that we do possess an early copy of the family tree print?
Thanks for the help.
Tim
Hi Tim,
Then that would explain things for sure, and I would suggest that your cousin found that image from my family tree on Ancestry.com or from someone who I invited to view my tree and they copied my information on Lucy Ann Wilson.
Image attached from my Ancestry tree ;-)
Brett
-
Well, its all sorting out now.
Team work.
It's 3 pm in NSW and ummm .... nothing done in real life ....
JM
-
Dear Tim,
The family tree that was marked with an X came from my private collection. It was marked by Aunt Cynthia because the family line did not continue. There were no fruits from that branch.
Sincerely,
Mike
Maybe not quite sorted yet @MAJM as we still have Quantumleap777's (Mike's) comment above. And I would think that Mike is referring to his Aunt Cynthia who I would guess would be Cynthia Wierzbicka who authored the book "The Wilson Story" published in 1973. This would make Mike a cousin of Karola (Cynthia's daughter) who sent me the book in 2015 from New Zealand.
Mike, are you able to photograph the the tree from your private collection and share it here?
Thanks
Brett
-
Tim,
You're welcome to send me a private message.
E.M. Wilson
-
Tim,
You're welcome to send me a private message.
E.M. Wilson
May I gently mention that the PM system at RChat does not have an option to include attachments.
JM
-
All,
Thanks for the help and guidance. Now that the family tree mystery has been (mostly) resolved, I can now further investigate our family's roots. I've reread the entire thread and there are several aspects that are intriguing. I'm trying to educate myself on unfamiliar terms - e.g. "Cornet" - from it's usage I'm assuming a honor that is associated with a "ride out" or "common riding." Must be similar to a Grand Marshal in a parade here in the States.
I love the word "Ladylaw" - romantic images of a majestic Scottish manor come to mind, but Google says it is much more pedestrian than that.
I'm also fascinated by some of the more notable members of the extended Wilson family. Maybe there's a discount on The Economist for family members?
I'll start work in earnest on mapping our lineage. I know that it likely exists on Ancestry.com, but it will be fun to do the digging myself. Although, I'll note, that the Wilson Family could have made things so much easier if they had had more variety in choosing names. Couldn't they have named one of their offspring "Oscar" instead of using "Walter" yet one more time?
And if I do find myself heading to NSW for any reason, I will absolutely let folks down there know.
I hope you all will indulge me if I do occasionally pop up with a question or three.
Tim
-
Dear Tim,
The family tree that was marked with an X came from my private collection. It was marked by Aunt Cynthia because the family line did not continue. There were no fruits from that branch.
Sincerely,
Mike
Maybe not quite sorted yet @MAJM as we still have Quantumleap777's (Mike's) comment above. And I would think that Mike is referring to his Aunt Cynthia who I would guess would be Cynthia Wierzbicka who authored the book "The Wilson Story" published in 1973. This would make Mike a cousin of Karola (Cynthia's daughter) who sent me the book in 2015 from New Zealand.
Mike, are you able to photograph the the tree from your private collection and share it here?
Thanks
Brett
Mike "Quantumleap777" claims that the family tree that was marked with an X came from his private collection. It was marked by Aunt Cynthia...
Surely Mike is suggesting that Aunt Cynthia is Cynthia Wierzbicka (nee Wilson) who authored the book "The Wilson Story"??
Well I chatted to my relative "James Wilson" who is actually Cynthia Wierzbicka's nephew, and there are no Mike's or Michael's in the family.
What is interesting, is that the day that this thread was unlocked when TTLovesKwi (Tim) posted, Mike "Quantumleap777" joined RootsChat soon thereafter (On the same day).
It would appear that Mike "Quantumleap777" is not who he, or should I say "she", is purporting to be.
I think you'll can figure out who it is ;D ;D ;D
See my chat with James (attached)
BW
-
You're making quantum leaps from Australia to Scotland out of thin air.
Hmmmm.
-
;D
Hummmmm
Quantum leap .... thin air ......
Would that be on a Boeing 777 ?
JM
-
You're making quantum leaps from Australia to Scotland out of thin air.
Hmmmm.
Nice Catch on that one @Forfarian and in that post at https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=12124.msg6632119#msg6632119 it discusses my GGG Grandfather from Hawick "Walter Wilson" 1798-1862 Cabinet Maker.
Attached, and I think I have shared this before, is a photo of said Walter Wilson compared to my grandfather Cecil Walter Wilson and my Father Brydon William Wilson. Notice the similarities?
Brett
-
;D
Hummmmm
Quantum leap .... thin air ......
Would that be on a Boeing 777 ?
JM
@MAJM 777 ;D ;D
-
May I remind you that there were two Aunts named Cynthia.
Genealogy without documentation is mythology.
Do your research Gentlemen. :)
-
May I remind you that there were two Aunts named Cynthia.
Genealogy without documentation is mythology.
Do your research Gentlemen. :)
Excuse me, I asked you a question earlier, please answer it.
JM ... I am not a Gentleman. 8)
-
Dear Tim,
The family tree that was marked with an X came from my private collection. It was marked by Aunt Cynthia because the family line did not continue. There were no fruits from that branch.
Sincerely,
Mike
Mike,
re your Aunt Cynthia,
Do you know why she did not mark any other apparently non fruiting branches on that tree?
JM
This question.....
JM
-
I am confused.
Two aunts called Cynthia?
One presumably Cynthia Wilson or Wierbicka, author of the book, 'The Wilson Story', which contains the copy of the chart prepared for Lucy Ann Wilson in 1890. The version without the 'x' added in pencil by Brett.
Who was the other Aunt Cynthia please?
-
Yes, well in NZ, there was a lass born in 1920. Her grand-dad was John, he was born in Portpatrick in 1858. His Dad was Alexander.
The family name was WILSON.. The lass born in 1920 in NZ was aged 82 when she died in NZ. Her second middle name was Cynthia.
Perhaps she was the other Aunt Cynthia? 8)
No mention of Hawick on any of the family trees I have sighted online for that Alexander Wilson
JM
-
Oh My.. Elise Marie Alvarez (nee Wilson) AKA E.M Wilson, AKA Quantumleap777 (Mike) is at it again on another platform..
From: https://hawickcornets.wordpress.com/2011/06/20/1814-walter-wilson-and-the-hanging-in-the-haugh/#comments (https://hawickcornets.wordpress.com/2011/06/20/1814-walter-wilson-and-the-hanging-in-the-haugh/#comments)
Naughty, naughty.
-
I've been following this thread because I, too, am a Wilson descendant, albeit one without access to that amazing family tree, the 1970s book, family Bibles, original letters, etc.
Brett, would you please post the portion of your ancestor's baptismal record that shows his father's occupation as cabinetmaker? His occupation isn't listed in the FamilySearch.org index and I don't have access to an LDS family history centre, so I can't view the image anywhere. (I'm not asking because I doubt your lineage; I'm a stickler for detail and would like to see it for myself.)
Thank you,
Josephine
-
Hi @Josephine
Certainly, though he is recorded as a carpenter. Over the years, he was recorded as a Carpenter, Cabinet Maker and another associated profession to do with woodworking etc.
And Hawick is mentioned in the Baptism record also.
Might I ask where you Wilson connections are from and if they tie in with this Wilson lot Josephine?
Attached - Top Listing. 06 April 1823
Thanks
Brett
-
Hi @Josephine
Certainly, though he is recorded as a carpenter. Over the years, he was recorded as a Carpenter, Cabinet Maker and another associated profession to do with woodworking etc.
And Hawick is mentioned in the Baptism record also.
Might I ask where you Wilson connections are from and if they tie in with this Wilson lot Josephine?
Attached - Top Listing. 06 April 1823
Thanks
Brett
Thanks so much, Brett; that's really awesome.
I find the Wilsons to be confusing and so am hesitant to say where I think I fit into it at this stage. I'm still trying to work it all out.
Regards,
Josephine
-
Feel free to message me Josephine as I may be able to help with the Wilson connections for you.
Brett
-
Feel free to message me Josephine as I may be able to help with the Wilson connections for you.
Brett
Thank you, Brett.
Regards,
Josephine
-
Part of an interview with my GG Grandfather Walter Wilson (1823-1903).
Walter whose father was also Walter the Cabinet Maker/Carpenter of Hawick.
The interview is dated 24 September 1886 and it is from the book "Records of the Castlemaine Pioneers".
My GG Grandfather, Walter Wilson (1823-1903) who came out to Australia in 1852 for the Victorian Gold Rush.
He was a Baker, who did his baking apprenticeship in Selkirk, not all that far from Hawick. I have travelled there on the bus myself in 2014. From the age of 21, (1844) Walter spent 5 years in London furthering is skills as a baker, and then later setting up shop for himself in Selkirk as a Master Baker (1851 Census records him as such).
Now why would Walter's fellow diggers (gold miners) think that he was a Carpenter? Where on earth did he pick up these skills as a Baker?
Could it be from growing up in his father and grandfather's house who just happened to be Carpenters and Cabinet Makers? They lived at 9 High Street, Hawick with their workshop at the rear of the premises.
Please see the attached snippet from the book and a section of the 1824 Hawick map.
Brett 8) :D ::)
You may need to scroll the image across to see the full text.
-
Here is an excerpt from the new 2021 version of The Hawick Word Book writing by Brett's Friend, Douglas Scott.
P. 3532 states
"By 1861 he was a retired cabinet-maker living at Silverbuthall
House. He had a son called Walter (b.1823), ap-
parently before he was married (with the mother
being Wilhelmina Bell); this son became a baker
in Selkirk and then emigrated to Australia. He
rstly married Janet Gray (who probably died
in 1829). He also appears to have had an ille-
gitimate son (Robert Brodie Wilson, 1840{1906)
with Margaret Brodie. In 1856 he secondly mar-
ried Isabella (c.1824{98, from Lilliesleaf), daugh-
ter of farmer James Gray; they had a daughter,
Jessie (1828{1913), who married George Hobkirk,
of Slitrig Villa. He was said to be very keen
on shing, and left his business largely to be
run by John Rae, while he went on angling ex-
cursions. He was also said to be a great story-
teller. An early photograph of him exists."
As I stated earlier, the Hawick Word Book is not a reliable source. Again, here is another presumption that has no evidence to back it up...except for the fact that Brett has not only inserted himself into my family but has convinced his Friend, Douglas Scott, the Author of the Hawick Word Book to insert Brett's guess about his Great, Great, Great Grandfather's lineage into a book that most people would consider a good source. This is an example of what I have been saying all along, there is no documentation and no link that can be shown of Brett's Walter Wilson Elliot being the son of my Walter Wilson, Cabinet-maker. Perhaps he is the son of Walter Wilson, the Skinner. Why isn't the Son, Walter's last name appearing in Mr. Scott's paragraph? What is the proof for these statements? Brett's word? What research backs up this new 2021 edited version. It is very different from the old version of the Hawick Word Book.
I find it very interesting that the death certificate of Walter Wilson Elliot (Brett's Grandfather) states that his Mother's name is Wilhelmina Riddings.
Why did he not know his own mother's name and where she was from? She was Wilhelmina Bell from Riddings, UK?
Wouldn't you know your Mother's name if you spent any time with her?
Why does his grave say he was born in Canonbie, Scotland?
Why does Wilhelmina Bell's Grandaughter, Sibella Elliot's birth record show that she was born in Canonbie too? They were from Canonbie.
When the book that Brett quotes says that “he was writing to his father in Hawick” who was that? Was it Robert Elliot, of Yorkshire whose family and clan was originally all located in Hawick? Or, was it John Dobie in Hawick?
Where is the proof of the emigration to Australia when you can't even identify who the person is and who's son he is?
There was no Walter listed on the Diadem or the Wanata going to Australia.
How do you make the connection that Brett's Walter Wilson Elliot is the son of Walter Wilson, Cabinet-maker in Hawick when there are NO records of this and then put it in a book that people are going to think is a credible source?
The Hawick Word Book has lost all credibility when it has not done it's own research and fact finding.
Brett has just made Douglas Scott sink to his level.
-
Thank you for sharing this today.
JM.
Here is an excerpt from the new 2021 version of The Hawick Word Book writing by Brett's Friend, Douglas Scott.
P. 3532 states
"By 1861 he was a retired cabinet-maker living at Silverbuthall
House. He had a son called Walter (b.1823), ap-
parently before he was married (with the mother
being Wilhelmina Bell); this son became a baker
in Selkirk and then emigrated to Australia. He
rstly married Janet Gray (who probably died
in 1829). He also appears to have had an ille-
gitimate son (Robert Brodie Wilson, 1840{1906)
with Margaret Brodie. In 1856 he secondly mar-
ried Isabella (c.1824{98, from Lilliesleaf), daugh-
ter of farmer James Gray; they had a daughter,
Jessie (1828{1913), who married George Hobkirk,
of Slitrig Villa. He was said to be very keen
on shing, and left his business largely to be
run by John Rae, while he went on angling ex-
cursions. He was also said to be a great story-
teller. An early photograph of him exists."
As I stated earlier, the Hawick Word Book is not a reliable source. Again, here is another presumption that has no evidence to back it up...except for the fact that Brett has not only inserted himself into my family but has convinced his Friend, Douglas Scott, the Author of the Hawick Word Book to insert Brett's guess about his Great, Great, Great Grandfather's lineage into a book that most people would consider a good source. This is an example of what I have been saying all along, there is no documentation and no link that can be shown of Brett's Walter Wilson Elliot being the son of my Walter Wilson, Cabinet-maker. Perhaps he is the son of Walter Wilson, the Skinner. Why isn't the Son, Walter's last name appearing in Mr. Scott's paragraph? What is the proof for these statements? Brett's word? What research backs up this new 2021 edited version. It is very different from the old version of the Hawick Word Book.
I find it very interesting that the death certificate of Walter Wilson Elliot (Brett's Grandfather) states that his Mother's name is Wilhelmina Riddings.
Why did he not know his own mother's name and where she was from? She was Wilhelmina Bell from Riddings, UK?
Wouldn't you know your Mother's name if you spent any time with her?
Why does his grave say he was born in Canonbie, Scotland?
Why does Wilhelmina Bell's Grandaughter, Sibella Elliot's birth record show that she was born in Canonbie too? They were from Canonbie.
When the book that Brett quotes says that “he was writing to his father in Hawick” who was that? Was it Robert Elliot, of Yorkshire whose family and clan was originally all located in Hawick? Or, was it John Dobie in Hawick?
Where is the proof of the emigration to Australia when you can't even identify who the person is and who's son he is?
There was no Walter listed on the Diadem or the Wanata going to Australia.
How do you make the connection that Brett's Walter Wilson Elliot is the son of Walter Wilson, Cabinet-maker in Hawick when there are NO records of this and then put it in a book that people are going to think is a credible source?
The Hawick Word Book has lost all credibility when it has not done it's own research and fact finding.
Brett has just made Douglas Scott sink to his level.
-
What a load of rubbish E.M Wilson (Elise Marie Alvarez) AKA Mike in this thread!
Walter's headstone says Canonbie, because a 3rd cousin once removed (Don Wilson) had guessed at that due to what Walter said in an interview. About being a stone's throw from the border. Don figured it was Canonbie, but it was Riddings, England. A stone's throw from Scotland.
This headstone or monument is a new one that was ordered by Don and other family members that contributed.
The old one was in disrepair. Attached is a photo of the old headstone that is in my Uncle Jack's shed.
Also attached, a snippet from an Interview with Walter Wilson 1823-1903 where we can see where Don somehow got the idea that he must be referring to Canonbie in Scotland, yet it was Riddings, England.
Born on April 5th 1923 in Riddings, Baptised on April 6th not far from Riddings, and then taken to Hawick, Scotland by his father "Walter Wilson" the Cabinet Maker of then 9 High Street, Hawick.
E.M Wilson also states: "I find it very interesting that the death certificate of Walter Wilson Elliot (Brett's Grandfather) states that his Mother's name is Wilhelmina Riddings".
Walter Wilson Elliot was a grandson son of Wilhelmina Elliot (Bell) and Robert Elliot. Walter Wilson Elliot was born in 1857 and died in 1867 from my records.
Wilhelmina Bell did not play a part (in person) in Walter Wilson's life after birth and baptism. (1823-1903).
He was raised by his father Walter Wilson of Hawick, Cabinet Maker of Hawick (1798-1862), and then took on an apprenticeship in near by Selkirk as a young lad.
Handwritten in Walter's bible, it also states Jessie as a sibling Married to G.H (George Hobkirk).
His other mentioned siblings were half siblings who were the children of Wilhelmina Bell and Robert Elliot. For Walter to know of them, then he must have been in touch with them all by letter one would thing, as Walter says that he never set foot again on English soil until the age of 21. Perhaps he caught up with them all on his way to London in 1844?
YAWNNN!
Brett
-
Also an extract from my GG Grandfather's diary or day book where he took notes about the days events for every day of his voyage from Scotland to Australia in 1852. Walter Wilson 1823-1903.
July 8, 1852
Still in Plymouth Sound. We are making final arrangements for the voyage. Weather quite warm and sultry as we anticipate meeting with in Australia. Sick at heart wishing to depart, and feel it tiresome in being detained so long. The passengers in good working order for voyage, as regards to berths, Messes, etc. We expect to sail soon. Have addressed letters to my father in Hawick and to my mother in Penrith – to Mr Lewis - Bookseller, John Brydon - Merchant, and Andrew Inglis - Mason.
As the last I will write within sight of my dear Native Land – hence, I take this favourable opportunity of saying a farewell to home and friends, under circumstance so extremely peculiar that I am forced to mark this as an era in my existence rarely met or encountered in the lot of one out of a thousand of my fellow creatures. If I have acted rashly or injudiciously in any point, I pray god I may be forgiven now, and not carry with me to the land of my intended sojourn, as unrepentant and an unforgiven soul.
9 o’clock, evening. I ask God’s blessing upon our voyage – while the crew weigh anchor to set sail. May our vessel speed, and the wind waft us thither in safety.
My friend and cabin mate, Thomas Wood, from Galashiels, and self, having finished a letter to James Scott, to be sent by the owners of the vessel on going ashore – go on deck to join in the cheers given by the passengers at our departure. One cheer more, and we are off upon our deep sea track.
Little regret seems to hang about the hearts of the company, as all and sundry join with their lungs to commemorate the event a loud huzzas that threaten to rend the vessel. Scarcely a breath of air floats to fill the canvas, and the ship slowly ventures over the barrier of the bay out into the open sea – the calm and placid waters all but asleep under the gaze of a myriad brilliant stars, coquetting upon the brow of every waving ripple that wits upon the advancing steps of our noble barque.
All aboard in good health – except one lady who being announced to be unwell, the company voluntarily left the poop deck, while nearly all turned in to rest for the night, at 12 o’clock p.m.
+++
There are 3 months worth of entries in this diary...
Brett ::) ::)
-
Let me translate the text inside the first few pages of Walter Wilson's bible. Attached Photo of same.. (1823-1903) He got this bible in 1852. The year he travelled to Australia. My translations and explanations are in brackets.
W.B.W (Walter Bell Wilson) born April 5th 1823
Father's name W.W (Walter Wilson) place of residence, Hawick. Mother's name
Whil Bell: (Wilhelmina Bell). Names of Brothers & Sisters -
Fergus & James (Surname Elliot and younger half brothers to Walter. They are sons of Wilhelmina Bell and Robert Elliot)
Jessie (Daughter of Walter Wilson Snr and Isabella Gray. Jessie was born in 1828 in Hawick), Isabella, Ann, Wilhimina (Isabella, Ann, Wilhimina are younger half siblings of Walter and daughters of Wilhelmina Bell and Robert Elliot).
Sister married to G.H (This is in relation to Jessie Wilson of Hawick (half sister to Walter), who married George Hobkirk of Hawick).
Brother F to Sarah Donald (Younger half Fergus married to Sarah). Ann to James Smith Esq. residing in London (Younger half sister Ann married to James)
Wilhilmina to m James Burns, Penrith. (Younger half sister Wilhimia, to m = to marry).
A quick note on Scottish Naming Patterns. The fist son, is generally named after the father's father.
Walter Wilson (1823-1903) would have been named after his father's father (or Grandfather), as he was the first son.
The Grandfather being also a Walter Wilson (1770-1847) Cabinet Maker and head of works for the Hawick town council, as . He in turn was the father of Walter Wilson (1798-1862) also a Cabinet Maker. The family resided at 9 High Street, Hawick with a workshop out the back. The family resided at that address since circa 1755 when my 5 x great grandfather (Walter Wilson 1712-1795) first lived there.
Enjoy ;-)
Brett
-
Someone messaged me to ask if I could look at Walter Wilson's (1823-1903) marriage record to see if it states his father's occupation. Well I hadn't looked at that for years, so I checked my records and what do you know... It names Walter Wilson - Cabinet Maker as his father.
Well how about that! Please see the attachments.
Awwww
Brett
-
FH101 lesson 1
Victoria BDM civil registrations are as informative as Scotlands. And like Scotlands, Victoria's death registrations on family history details simply are NOT first hand, afterall the person of interest is The Deceased.
So may I mention that EMW discusses the death certificate for Walter Wilson Elliot. There is NO such certificate.
There is, however, one for Walter WILSON, registered in the Australian state of Victoria in 1903. He was a widower, and likely the informant will be named on that official record. It won't be the mother of his children, she died several years prior. So the informant was likely one of his sons, giving answers to verbal questions posed by the funeral director, and jotted down in notes for later formally registering the death.. I do not see any issue with a grandson not knowing the maiden name of his grandmother.
There are also quite a number of obits, plus funeral and death notices freely available online via the National Library of Australia's TROVE website. The ship of arrival is named therein.
JM
-
Yes MAJM
Walter's funeral saw the town shut down in 1903, such was the esteem in which he was held.
This was from Trove I believe.
Please see the attached
Brett
-
The only possible Walter Wilson that is recorded on Scotland's People that fits in with Walter Wilson's life span is the one born in 1859 and he died at age 9.
Irrelevant.
There were six Walter Wilsons born in Scotland in 1859, seven years after Walter Wilson, son of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker in Hawick and half-brother of Jessie Wilson or Hobkirk, arrived in Australia, and just one year before Walter Wilson, son of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker in Hawick, married in Australia.
Not one of the six Walter Wilsons born in Scotland in 1859 can possibly shed any light at all on someone 35 or 36 years older than they are who had left Scotland seven years before they were born.
-
“He was raised by his father Walter Wilson of Hawick, Cabinet Maker of Hawick (1798-1862), and then took on an apprenticeship in near by Selkirk as a young lad. “
No, he was not raised by his father Walter Wilson of Hawick, Cabinet-maker of Hawick and he did not live with either Walter Wilson, Sr. or Jr. in Hawick because he was not on the census in either 1841 or 1851. See attached 1841 Census document.
-
“He was raised by his father Walter Wilson of Hawick, Cabinet Maker of Hawick (1798-1862), and then took on an apprenticeship in near by Selkirk as a young lad. “
No, he was not raised by his father Walter Wilson of Hawick, Cabinet-maker of Hawick and he did not live with either Walter Wilson, Sr. or Jr. in Hawick because he was not on the census in either 1841 or 1851. See attached 1851 Census document.
-
FH 101 lesson 2
When noting information found on UK 19th century census images, best to remember they are only a snapshot of a household on one night in TEN years and are not giving information about the days, weeks, months or years in between. They are only information transcribed by the enumerator about that one day. “He was raised by his father Walter Wilson of Hawick, Cabinet Maker of Hawick (1798-1862), and then took on an apprenticeship in near by Selkirk as a young lad. “
No, he was not raised by his father Walter Wilson of Hawick, Cabinet-maker of Hawick and he did not live with either Walter Wilson, Sr. or Jr. in Hawick because he was not on the census in either 1841. See attached 1841 Census document.
“He was raised by his father Walter Wilson of Hawick, Cabinet Maker of Hawick (1798-1862), and then took on an apprenticeship in near by Selkirk as a young lad. “
No, he was not raised by his father Walter Wilson of Hawick, Cabinet-maker of Hawick and he did not live with either Walter Wilson, Sr. or Jr. in Hawick because he was not on the census in either 1841 or 1851. See attached 1851 Census document.
-
The current time is 12.44 p.m. in NSW Australia. I wonder where EMW is located at this moment.
-
1851 Census
-
In 1841, incorrectly recorded or transcribed as W.M (Walter) Wilson as the M has no place as his middle initial was B. Walter was in Selkirk with the Hume family at age 18 in 1841. Remember that he was born in 1823. 1841 - 1823 = Mmmm 18! The Humes were the family that he did his baking apprenticeship with. He was very close with the Hume family. Image attached for the 1841 Census.
A Janet Brydon is also mentioned in this census record, but it is not the Janet Brydon that he married. This is another Janet Brydon. Though his sweetheart "Janet Brydon" that he later married, was already in the picture.
How do I know this? Ahhh.. Well in 1894, Walter wrote an article in Castlemaine, Victoria, Australia and sent it to the Southern Reporter newspaper in Scotland and it was published on April the 5th, 1894, which incidentally was also Walter's birthday. Copies of the Southern Reporter newspaper then made their way to even Australia.
In the attached snippet, it says I (Walter Wilson) went, as also my present wife (Janet Brydon) and an acquaintance of the same name .. (the other Janet Brydon recorded in the 1841 Census).
Yawn!
Brett
“He was raised by his father Walter Wilson of Hawick, Cabinet Maker of Hawick (1798-1862), and then took on an apprenticeship in near by Selkirk as a young lad. “
No, he was not raised by his father Walter Wilson of Hawick, Cabinet-maker of Hawick and he did not live with either Walter Wilson, Sr. or Jr. in Hawick because he was not on the census in either 1841. See attached 1841 Census document.
-
Yes, keep me posted as to what counts as a fact and what does not.
Tell me this, if W.B.W. a.k.a. Walter Bell a.k.a. Walter Wilson Elliot a.k.a Walter Wilson had a relationship with his father why was he not the heir apparent? Why did he receive nothing from the will?
I digress. I have more facts that don't apparently count. Please show me the facts that do qualify that counter my argument.
"He" stated previously that W.B.W. a.k.a. Walter Bell a.k.a. Walter Wilson Elliot a.k.a Walter Wilson lived with the Hume family in Selkirk and apprenticed with them. See Hume Census part 1 attached.
-
Henry Hume Census document part 2
-
I enjoyed this one:
“Have addressed letters to my father in Hawick and to my mother in Penrith – to Mr Lewis - Bookseller, John Brydon - Merchant, and Andrew Inglis - Mason. “
Why was “and to my mother in Penrith” left out of the previous post of this paragraph?
Where is the original undoctored page?
-
"His" Bible refers to the Elliot Chidren, fathered by Robert Elliot born in Canonbie, Scotland in 1801. They're all from Canonbie, Scotland. See Robert Elliot's birth record attached. The whole family was born in Canonbie, Scotland just like W.B.W. a.k.a Walter Bell a.k.a Walter Wilson Elliot a.k.a. Walter Wilson.
-
"Yawn"
Take a vitamin
-
The Selkirk Master Baker by the common name of Walter Wilson ended up in Australia making more babies. But the problem is how do you connect W.B.W., a.k.a. Walter Bell, a.k.a. Walter Wilson Elliot, a.k.a, Walter Wilson born in 1823, Canonbie Scotland to Walter Wilson Master Baker, 1851 in Selkirk. 28 years have passed. Where did he pass them?
What was his name in Scotland BEFORE he was 28 years old?
Where did he live in Scotland, England BEFORE he was 28 years old
These are basic questions that need to be answered.
I suspect that this illegitimate child grew up in the Guide Port Inn and the Crosskeys Inn and was tossed around like a hot potato.
So many discrepancies, now, the headstone has been changed. This is starting to look like a pantomime.
There is no traceability. All of this information is being manipulated to fit a big guess that is a DEAD END. Waste of time. What is eerie to me is the desperation the “he” has to be a real Wilson.
-
EMW, re your post
I enjoyed this one:
“Have addressed letters to my father in Hawick and to my mother in Penrith – to Mr Lewis - Bookseller, John Brydon - Merchant, and Andrew Inglis - Mason. “
Why was “and to my mother in Penrith” left out of the previous post of this paragraph?
Where is the original undoctored page?
Perhaps you could go back through this very long thread and using the quote button you could demonstrate your concerns.
JM
-
The Selkirk Master Baker by the common name of Walter Wilson ended up in Australia making more babies. But the problem is how do you connect W.B.W., a.k.a. Walter Bell, a.k.a. Walter Wilson Elliot, a.k.a, Walter Wilson born in 1823, Canonbie Scotland to Walter Wilson Master Baker, 1851 in Selkirk. 28 years have passed. Where did he pass them?
What was his name in Scotland BEFORE he was 28 years old?
Where did he live in Scotland, England BEFORE he was 28 years old
These are basic questions that need to be answered.
I suspect that this illegitimate child grew up in the Guide Port Inn and the Crosskeys Inn and was tossed around like a hot potato.
So many discrepancies, now, the headstone has been changed. This is starting to look like a pantomime.
There is no traceability. All of this information is being manipulated to fit a big guess that is a DEAD END. Waste of time. What is eerie to me is the desperation the “he” has to be a real Wilson.
All those questions you are now posing have likely been answered in earlier posts on this thread. May I please suggest that the regular RootsChatters are volunteers, the owners of RootsChat do not require us to pay any subscriptions, and we are all expected to work co-operatively and collaboratively in an harmonous way.
I am turning off notifications for this thread.
JM
-
I bring up these points because they have not been addressed.
How do you connect a bastard born in 1823 in Canonbie, Scotland to a Master Baker in Selkirk in 1851 when neither of them have any record of where they've been for the past 28 years.
They each need to be identified.
How do you identify W.B.W. a.k.a Walter Bell a.k.a Walter Wilson Elliot a.k.a Walter Wilson after birth in 1823?
How do you identify the Master Baker in Selkirk showing up out of the blue in 1851 in Selkirk?
How do you connect these two people without any documentation? What is the documentation that connects these two events?
How much more harmonious can this be. I am simply asking questions. Don't feel any pressure. I don't expect answers from you. I will find them. :-* :-* :-*
-
As per Records of the Castlemaine Pioneers by Rigby Limited 1972 ISBN 085179386 x
On page 95 when he is 63 years old, Walter Wilson (Master Baker, Selkirk presumably) mentions that he built an oven on Kangaroo Flat, opposite Dr. O'Donnel's and not far from Gunn's Hotel.
On page 169 when he is 72 years old, he writes that a horse "dropped dead in front of Gunn's Hotel".
Here, in this book he has two opportunities (if he is a real Wilson) to mention how the Wilson Family is a Sept of the Gunn Clan but he does not mention it. The Gunn Hotel and the Gunn Clan is of no consequence to him.
On page 102, Walter Wilson writes "For the present, I will detain you no longer, but bid you "Good Night" in the words of Ebenezr Elliott, the Corn Law rhymer - "He that hath done his best, let him rest." He chose a quote from an Elliott, his Father's name is Elliot. More compelling, if he was raised by a Wilson, he would have mentioned that James Wilson, Economist published The Corn Laws in 1853 if he was a relative. How could he leave that out if he was a REAL Wilson. They were contemporaries. There was no relationship with Walter Wilson, Cabinet-maker of Hawick. They didn't know eachother. He didn't know or know of James Wilson, Economist. Walter Wilson a.k.a Walter Bell a.k.a Walter Wilson Elliot a.k.a Walter Wilson of Castlemaine, Victoria, Australia was not a member of the Wilson Family of Hawick.
-
You have simply not been paying attention E.M Wilson (Elise Marie Alvarez).
And you are truly grasping at straws. Do you really think that humble Walter Wilson needs to drop the name of James Wilson (his 1st cousin once removed) just because there is a mention of a the words of a Corn Law Rhymer? Really?
1851 Census.. Walter Wilson listed as 28 years old (Born 1823 remember, and he was recorded as 18 years old in 1841). Recorded in 1851 as a Master Baker in Selkirk. Birthplace listed as England, as in Riddings, England, which as Walter's own words, described his birth place as being in England and a stone's throw from the border. See attached for the 1851 census and Riddings, England.
Calling him a bastard in this day and age just shows what a nasty person you are Elise. How many children these days are born out of wedlock? Are you running around New York calling them all bastards?
We are not talking about the Royal family here, just a Wilson family from Hawick, who just happened to have done well in the Hosiery and Tweed industries. And one or two of them made a name for themselves, such as James Wilson (1805-1860) "The Economist" Magazine founder, and perhaps Sir James Glenny Wilson (1849-1929) who emigrated to New Zealand from Hawick.
If Walter Wilson's problem with you, is that he was born out of wedlock, then that is your problem. You knew all this before you turned nasty on me.
Walter was a wonderful soul and much loved and respected by the people around him in Scotland and Australia.
Walter was born on the 5th of April 1823 in Riddings, England. His baptism record says his Mother is Wilhelmina Bell from Riddings (England) and that his Father is Walter Wilson (Carpenter) from Hawick (Scotland). He was baptised at Kirk Andrews Upon Esk, Cumberland, England on the 6th of April 1823. Kirk Andrews Upon Esk, Cumberland is South of Riddings, toward Carlisle (England). And likely chosen as it was the closest Presbyterian church to Riddings at the time for a Baptism.
Walter Wilson Senior (1798-1862) was known as a carpenter, a joiner and a cabinet maker at different times. He lived at 9 High Street Hawick for most of his life and retired to SilverbutHall Lodge by the time of the 1861 Census. It was another man that built the SilverbutHall mansion after W.W Seniors death. (Check the Pigots Directories, which were like a Yellow Pages of that era.)
In 1844 Walter Wilson (1823-1903) wrote in his diary of the receival of a letter from his father in Hawick (W.W Senior) and that tears flowed down his cheek when something is mentioned about a long departed soul who had in part played Mother to him. This would be referring to Janet Wilson (Gray) who died in 1829, a year or so after she gave birth to Jessie Wilson in 1828. I incorrectly called Janet as Isabella in a previous post, as W.W Snr later married another Gray by the name of Isabella.
Walter Wilson's (1823-1903) marriage record also states that his father is Walter Wilson - Cabinet Maker.
Walter Wilson's (1823-1903) Bible clearly shows his father as W.W with a place of residence in Hawick, and it clearly lists his Mother's name "Wilhelmina Bell". It clearly mentions his half siblings names including Jessie that Married G.H (George Hobkirk), and also the children that Wilhelmina had with Robert Elliot whom she married in England in 1824 from memory.
In my opinion, any references to Canonbie are mistakes, as assumptions were made that Walter was born in Scotland rather than England. I don't think people knew where such a small village of Riddings was in England, so they might have been told that it is not far from Canonbie, which is correct. But Canonbie is on the Scottish side of the border.
I shall leave you all with this poem written by Walter Wilson in 1844 when he was to leave Scotland to work in London to further his talents as a Baker. He stayed there for 5 years.
Adieu to the rapture that thrills
through the heart on the red heather heath
when the sunlight sleeps calmly above, and the loud
troubled tempest roars wildly beneath
Adieu to the birchen clad braes
where the rivulets murmur down the sweet vales
Then here’s to the hills of Caledonia
here’s to the brave heather land!
And here`s to the smile of a sweet Scottish Maid
and the grasp of a Scotsman`s hand.
Caledonia, when thee I forget
proud land of my Fathers before me
I`ll forget my best Friend, the Maid that I love
and the dear loving Mother who loves me.
Walter wrote this at age 21.
P.S Elise, you should get one of your male relatives to do a Y-DNA test like I have already done with FamilyTreeDNA.
Oh, but I forgot, none of them are talking to you are they? What about Professor Mike Wilson (Thomas Michael Aubrey Wilson)? You know, the one who visited you inside of "you know where" in 2005!
Brett
-
"His" Bible refers to the Elliot Chidren, fathered by Robert Elliot born in Canonbie, Scotland in 1801. They're all from Canonbie, Scotland. See Robert Elliot's birth record attached. The whole family was born in Canonbie, Scotland just like W.B.W. a.k.a Walter Bell a.k.a Walter Wilson Elliot a.k.a. Walter Wilson.
Rubbish. This time you are not only clutching at straws, you are clutching at non-existent straws.
Walter Wilson's original baptism record, already posted twice on this thread, shows that he was born in England, not in Canonbie. Not surprising, because the subsequent censuses show that Wilhelmina was also born in Kirkandrew in Cumberland.
The birthplaces of the subsequent husband and children of Wilhelmina Bell are irrelevant, because they have no bearing on the identity of her illegitimate son's father, but just for the record each and every one of the children, according to the 1851, 1861 and 1871 census when Wilhelmina was living in Penrith, was born in Cumberland.
And there are NO records of baptisms of Walter Wilsons or Walter Elliots in Canonbie.
There is only one Walter Wilson Elliot* in the Scottish records, born 1860 and died in Scotland in 1940. Far too young to be the son of Wilhelmina who married in Australia in 1860.
-
"His" Bible refers to the Elliot Chidren, fathered by Robert Elliot born in Canonbie, Scotland in 1801. They're all from Canonbie, Scotland. See Robert Elliot's birth record attached. The whole family was born in Canonbie, Scotland just like W.B.W. a.k.a Walter Bell a.k.a Walter Wilson Elliot a.k.a. Walter Wilson.
Rubbish. This time you are not only clutching at straws, you are clutching at non-existent straws.
Walter Wilson's original baptism record, already posted twice on this thread, shows that he was born in England, not in Canonbie. Not surprising, because the subsequent censuses show that Wilhelmina was also born in Kirkandrew in Cumberland.
The birthplaces of the subsequent husband and children of Wilhelmina Bell are irrelevant, because they have no bearing on the identity of her illegitimate son's father, but just for the record each and every one of the children, according to the 1851, 1861 and 1871 census when Wilhelmina was living in Penrith, was born in Cumberland.
And there are NO records of baptisms of Walter Wilsons or Walter Elliots in Canonbie.
There is only one Walter Wilson Elliot* in the Scottish records, born 1860 and died in Scotland in 1940. Far too young to be the son of Wilhelmina who married in Australia in 1860.
Hi @Forfarian, You may have meant something different in the last line? Did you mean the marriage of Walter Wilson and Janet Brydon in 1860?
And 100% correct on the Elliot Family being in Penrith on the census records.
Cheers
Brett
-
Here, in this book he has two opportunities (if he is a real Wilson) to mention how the Wilson Family is a Sept of the Gunn Clan but he does not mention it. The Gunn Hotel and the Gunn Clan is of no consequence to him.
Because the idea that all Wilsons are connected to Clan Gunn is fantasy.
The Surname Wilson means 'son of William'. William is one of the commonest given names in the English-speaking world, so it follows that the surname Wilson (and variants) must have arise independently in many places in Scotland and of course in England.
So there probably were some Wilsons who belonged to Clan Gunn, but that is a very long way from meaning that all Wilsons belong to Clan Gunn. That idea is a fabrication of the Brigadoon industry and has no place in genealogy.
And it might come as a surprise that most Lowland and Border Scots do not feel any particular affinity to any Highland clan. Borderers may feel an affinity to one or other of the Border families, but until Sir Walter Scott started romanticising the clans in the early 19th century it would not have occurred to them that they had anything to do with the clan system.
-
Hi @Forfarian, You may have meant something different in the last line? Did you mean the marriage of Walter Wilson and Janet Brydon in 1860?
Yes.
The only recorded Walter Wilson Elliot was born in 1860, therefore he cannot be the Walter Wilson who married Janet Brydon in Australia in 1860.
-
Roger that @Forfarian
Hi @Forfarian, You may have meant something different in the last line? Did you mean the marriage of Walter Wilson and Janet Brydon in 1860?
Yes.
The only recorded Walter Wilson Elliot was born in 1860, therefore he cannot be the Walter Wilson who married Janet Brydon in Australia in 1860.
-
5 PMs... five !
Right, well Clan GUNN ... hogwash.... the British Colony of Victoria was hived off from the British Colony of New South Wales in 1851. Huge inflows of people from around the world came by ship, most suffering gold fever. People from California, China, The sub-continent, Italy, Germany, France, Spain, ... the melting pot for EGALITY .... birth of democracy, .... who your ancestors were had no bearing on how you were received in your community. NO ONE would have boasted about being Gunn Clan or any other clan.
Calling anyone a Bastard in Australia can be one of the greatest compliments awarded. "You Bastard" if spoken aloud with a friendly gesture is often considered as a badge of honour....
But as for presuming a person's surname ought to be amended to reflect his mum's subsequent marriage to someone who was NOT his actual dad, and to do so, nearly 200 years after he was born .... now that's plainly lack of understanding.
JM.
-
Tell me this, if W.B.W. a.k.a. Walter Bell a.k.a. Walter Wilson Elliot a.k.a Walter Wilson had a relationship with his father why was he not the heir apparent?
Because none of the Walter Wilsons actually left a will.
There are two confirmations of testaments of Walter Wilsons in Hawick in 1848 and 1849 respectively. Neither contains an actual will, and even if Wilhelmina's son had been the son of either of them, which he can't have been because Wilhelmina's son wrote to his father in Hawick in 1852, he could not have inherited in the absence of a will because he was illegitimate.
Wilhelmina's son's father died in 1862 but there is no record of the confirmation of his testament, so he obviously left no will either. I imagine that his daughter Jessie Wilson or Hobkirk would have got anything left by him, being not only his only legitimate child, but also the only one to remain in Hawick, her two illegitimate half-brothers having emigrated.
-
On page 102, Walter Wilson writes "For the present, I will detain you no longer, but bid you "Good Night" in the words of Ebenezr Elliott, the Corn Law rhymer - "He that hath done his best, let him rest." He chose a quote from an Elliott, his Father's name is Elliot.
That is so nonsensical that it's beyond ridicule. If I choose to quote Robert Burns, or Walter Scott, does that prove that either of them is related to me?
More compelling, if he was raised by a Wilson, he would have mentioned that James Wilson, Economist published The Corn Laws in 1853 if he was a relative. How could he leave that out if he was a REAL Wilson. They were contemporaries.
He emigrated to Australia before the publication of the 'Corn Laws' and he probably neither knew nor cared about some work published by a politician in Britain, even if the politician in question was a cousin.
More clutching at straws in a vain and futile attempt to ignore the PRIMARY evidence.
-
Hitting your stride on this @MJM and right up your alley.
And @Forfarian The mention of 1848 and 1849 would most likely be in relation to my GGGG Grandfather Walter Wilson 1770-1847 and I have a copy of his Will. Also a Cabinet Maker of 9 High Street, Hawick.
I never found a Will for for his son, Walter Wilson 1798-1862, but I do Have Jessie Wilson's Will from 1913.
A photo and description of Walter Wilson 1770-1847 with description from the Hawick museum attached.
Also a photo and description of Walter Wilson 1798-1862 with description from the Hawick museum attached.
Brett
-
I have, among my Australian ancestors, a publican with the surname WILSON. His father arrived in NSW in the 1810s when the Scotsman, Lachlan Macquarie, was governor. My husband has, among his Australian ancestors, a cabinetmaker, surnamed GUNN; his mum and dad arrived 1850s, made a fortune making coffins..... ;D nothing in that family's private papers indicates any recognition of Scottish CLAN status.
-
“He was raised by his father Walter Wilson of Hawick, Cabinet Maker of Hawick (1798-1862), and then took on an apprenticeship in near by Selkirk as a young lad. “
No, he was not raised by his father Walter Wilson of Hawick, Cabinet-maker of Hawick and he did not live with either Walter Wilson, Sr. or Jr. in Hawick because he was not on the census in either 1841 or 1851. See attached 1841 Census document.
That census proves nothing, and in particular it does not prove that Wilhelmina's son was not brought up by his father.
1. The census lists a W M Wilson, aged 18, apprentice, in the household of Henry Hume, baker, in Selkirk. It is an assumption that this is Walter, because it cannot be proved that this is not a William Wilson, and where did the middle initial come from?
2. It is normal for a young man to enter on an apprenticeship in his mid-teens, so the fact that W M Wilson (if we accept that he is Wilhelmina's son Walter) is living with the Hume family tells us nothing about where he lived until then.
3. Henry Hume, at 34, is far too young to have stood in loco parentis for Wilhelmina's son.
4. In the 1851 census Walter Wilson, 28, baker, born England, is living in Selkirk. Obviously, if his job was in Selkirk he would live in Selkirk, not 17 miles away in Hawick.
Therefore neither the 1841 nor the 1851 census proves that Walter Wilson was not, as he said, brought up by his father Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker in Hawick.
The 1851 census does show, however, that Walter Wilson, 52, widower, is the only cabinetmaker in Hawick of that name, and therefore must be the one to whom his and Wilhelmina's illegitimate son wrote in 1852 on his way to Australia.
-
And @Forfarian The mention of 1848 and 1849 would most likely be in relation to my GGGG Grandfather Walter Wilson 1770-1847 and I have a copy of his Will.
No.
The 1848 one is indeed your GGGGGf the cabinetmaker 1770-1847, but the 1849 one is the other Walter Wilson, who was a baker married to Isabella Richardson. Which proves that he cannot have been the father of Wilhelmina's son, because Wilhelmina's son wrote to his living father four years later.
-
;D
"Dunn n Dustered" as my Late Gran would say.
Well sorted Forfarian.
9.58 p.m. in NSW ... not sure of NYC time.
JM
-
Correct @Forfarian , neither the 1841, or 1851 census have any affect on where Walter grew up.
He was certainly apprenticed as a baker with the Hume family, as that is also reflected in his 1844 diary.
It is also mentioned in words of such, that he shed tears when his father wrote to him and mentioned the woman that had long since passed away "Janet Wilson nee Gray" who had played the part of Mother to him. Which indicates that he was raised by his Father and Janet Gray.
There is also Walter's inexplicable carpentry skills as mentioned in the interview in the 1880's .. His fellow diggers (gold miners) thought him to be a carpenter rather than a Baker.
This suggests to me that Walter was doing quite a lot of woodwork with his father and grandfather at 9 High Street, Hawick, before deciding to become a Baker.
And interesting stuff @MAJM on the Clans.
Cheers
Brett
“He was raised by his father Walter Wilson of Hawick, Cabinet Maker of Hawick (1798-1862), and then took on an apprenticeship in near by Selkirk as a young lad. “
No, he was not raised by his father Walter Wilson of Hawick, Cabinet-maker of Hawick and he did not live with either Walter Wilson, Sr. or Jr. in Hawick because he was not on the census in either 1841 or 1851. See attached 1841 Census document.
That census proves nothing, and in particular it does not prove that Wilhelmina's son was not brought up by his father.
1. The census lists a W M Wilson, aged 18, apprentice, in the household of Henry Hume, baker, in Selkirk. It is an assumption that this is Walter, because it cannot be proved that this is not a William Wilson, and where did the middle initial come from?
2. It is normal for a young man to enter on an apprenticeship in his mid-teens, so the fact that W M Wilson (if we accept that he is Wilhelmina's son Walter) is living with the Hume family tells us nothing about where he lived until then.
3. Henry Hume, at 34, is far too young to have stood in loco parentis for Wilhelmina's son.
4. In the 1851 census Walter Wilson, 28, baker, born England, is living in Selkirk. Obviously, if his job was in Selkirk he would live in Selkirk, not 17 miles away in Hawick.
Therefore neither the 1841 nor the 1851 census proves that Walter Wilson was not, as he said, brought up by his father Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker in Hawick.
The 1851 census does show, however, that Walter Wilson, 52, widower, is the only cabinet maker in Hawick of that name, and therefore must be the one to whom his and Wilhelmina's illegitimate son wrote in 1852 on his way to Australia.
-
Aye 8) 8) 8)
;D
"Dunn n Dustered" as my Late Gran would say.
Well sorted Forfarian.
9.58 p.m. in NSW ... not sure of NYC time.
JM
-
Please show me the facts that do qualify that counter my argument.
With the greatest of pleasure.
The primary sources are
1. Baptism record of Walter Wilson, illegitimate son of Walter Wilson, carpenter in Hawick, and Wilhelmina Bell of Riddings (already posted twice on this thread).
2. Marriage certificate of Walter Wilson, son of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, and Wilhelmina Bell, to Janet Brydon. Already posted on this thread.
3. Death certificate of Walter Wilson, husband of Janet Brydon, son of Walter Wilson and Wilhelmina, whose surname was incorrectly given as Riddings (where she lived). Only the index listing posted so far but I have no doubt that it would be easy enough to get and post the original document.
Therefore there is absolutely no question whatsever that Walter Wilson, illegitimate son of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker in Hawick, and Wilhelmina Bell, is the one who emigrated to Australia, married Janet Brydon and died there in 1903.
So the only question is which Walter Wilson was his father.
The early trade directory lists one Walter Wilson, cabinet maker, in Hawick. Already mentioned in this thread.
The 1841 census shows two Walter Wilsons, cabinetmakers, in Hawick, in the same household, one aged 71 and the other 42. It is reasonable to suppose that these are father (1770-1847) and son (1798-1862), and that they would therefore be listed only once in the trade directory.
The 1851 census shows one Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, widower, 52, in Hawick.
The 1861 census shows one Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, married, 62, in Hawick.
Death of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, in Hawick in 1862, husband of Isabella Gray, son of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, and Katherine Oliver. Extract already posted on this thread.
Wilhelmina's son's diary states that he wrote to his father in Hawick in 1852 on his way to Australia. If his father was not Walter Wilson (1798-1862), you would have to invent another, entirely separate, Walter Wilson who was a cabinetmaker in Hawick for 40 years but is not recorded in the baptism registers, the early trade directories, or the census, or the death records.
There are a massive number of secondary sources that support him being brought up by his father Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker (1798-1823), apprenticed to a baker, working as a baker, emigrating to Australia and settling there.
All your arguments against this interpretation are either easily disproved or so abstruse or irrelevant that they are not worth the effort of repeating them.
Walter Bell Wilson (1823-1903), was the son of Walter Wilson (1798-1862), grandson of Walter Wilson (1770-1847) and great-grandson of Walter Wilson (b 1712).
-
Correct @Forfarian
Other than:
Death of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, in Hawick in 1862, husband of Isabella Gray , son of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, and Katherine Oliver. Extract already posted on this thread.
Note: Walter Wilson 1770 - 1847 was married to Agnes Fletcher. It was his Father Walter Wilson AKA Handless Was (1712-1795) that married Ketherin/Catherine Oliver.
Wilhelmina's son's diary states that he wrote to his father in Hawick in 1852 on his way to Australia. If his father was not Walter Wilson (1798-1862), you would have to invent another, entirely separate, Walter Wilson who was a cabinetmaker in Hawick for 40 years but is not recorded in the baptism registers, the early trade directories, or the census, or the death records.
There are a massive number of secondary sources that support him being brought up by his father Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker (1798-1823), apprenticed to a baker, working as a baker, emigrating to Australia and settling there.
Note: This date should be 1798 - 1862
But I am across all this data as a matter of course, so I am not critiquing your info which is largely correct.
Appreciated
Brett
Please show me the facts that do qualify that counter my argument.
With the greatest of pleasure.
The primary sources are
1. Baptism record of Walter Wilson, illegitimate son of Walter Wilson, carpenter in Hawick, and Wilhelmina Bell of Riddings (already posted twice on this thread).
2. Marriage certificate of Walter Wilson, son of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, and Wilhelmina Bell, to Janet Brydon. Already posted on this thread.
3. Death certificate of Walter Wilson, husband of Janet Brydon, son of Walter Wilson and Wilhelmina, whose surname was incorrectly given as Riddings (where she lived). Only the index listing posted so far but I have no doubt that it would be easy enough to get and post the original document.
Therefore there is absolutely no question whatsever that Walter Wilson, illegitimate son of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker in Hawick, and Wilhelmina Bell, is the one who emigrated to Australia, married Janet Brydon and died there in 1903.
So the only question is which Walter Wilson was his father.
The early trade directory lists one Walter Wilson, cabinet maker, in Hawick. Already mentioned in this thread.
The 1841 census shows two Walter Wilsons, cabinetmakers, in Hawick, in the same household, one aged 71 and the other 42. It is reasonable to suppose that these are father (1770-1847) and son (1798-1862), and that they would therefore be listed only once in the trade directory.
The 1851 census shows one Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, widower, 52, in Hawick.
The 1861 census shows one Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, married, 62, in Hawick.
Death of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, in Hawick in 1862, husband of Isabella Gray, son of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, and Katherine Oliver. Extract already posted on this thread.
Wilhelmina's son's diary states that he wrote to his father in Hawick in 1852 on his way to Australia. If his father was not Walter Wilson (1798-1862), you would have to invent another, entirely separate, Walter Wilson who was a cabinetmaker in Hawick for 40 years but is not recorded in the baptism registers, the early trade directories, or the census, or the death records.
There are a massive number of secondary sources that support him being brought up by his father Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker (1798-1823), apprenticed to a baker, working as a baker, emigrating to Australia and settling there.
All your arguments against this interpretation are either easily disproved or so abstruse or irrelevant that they are not worth the effort of repeating them.
Walter Bell Wilson (1823-1903), was the son of Walter Wilson (1798-1862), grandson of Walter Wilson (1770-1847) and great-grandson of Walter Wilson (b 1712).
-
Correct @Forfarian
Other than:
Death of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, in Hawick in 1862, husband of Isabella Gray , son of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, and Katherine Oliver. Extract already posted on this thread.
Note: Walter Wilson 1770 - 1847 was married to Agnes Fletcher. It was his Father Walter Wilson AKA Handless Was (1712-1795) that married Ketherin/Catherine Oliver.
So the death certificate got his mother's name wrong. Just like the death certificate of Wilhelmina's son got her surname wrong.
There are a massive number of secondary sources that support him being brought up by his father Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker (1798-1823)
Note: This date should be 1798 - 1862/
You're right. Slip of the finger. Apologies.
-
:D :D :D
FH 101 Lesson 3.
Remember the two magic words and use them wisely.
So I noticed that various RChat contributors to this thread have logged in, and thus have been online since Forfarian's brilliant summary but not all have found the time or words to congratulate Forfarian.
Thank You.
JM.
-
Thank you @Forfarian and @MAJM
Especially for your time and effort.
Brett Wilson
-
@Forfarian, the Wilsons were either part of the Gunn Clan or the Innis Clan and our Wilsons were part of the Gunn Clan as Abe Gunn can tell you. He also said that there is usually an imposter trying to insert himself in every family. So common. All of the Hawick Wilsons know which Clan they belong to. No person named Gunn went to Australia? Poppycock.
So many irregularities in this Australian fairytale of epic proportion that need to be buttressed with so many explanations without documentation. Such an overwhelming response for my brief points that nobody else picked up on.
Multiple times I have found reference of BW as a 1st Cousin 5x removed to James Wilson, Economist but never have I seen it stated for what it MAY (on the 12th of never) be, illegitimate 1st Cousin 5x removed. Don't worry though, everyone who BW lied to sees through this charade.
I understand from several sources from Hawick that Brett made a real pest of himself when he visited claiming that he was a Wilson and his presence was not welcome. Nobody had ever heard of him.
I guess it's time to change the headstone again. ;)
-
Bahahahaha..
Interestingly, I have over 160 years of digitised Hawick Archaeological Society records.
You know the Hawick Archaeological Society of course Elise Marie Alvarez (nee Wilson)?
The same Hawick Archaeological Society that made me a lifetime honorary member for my contributions? http://hawickhistory.scot (http://hawickhistory.scot)
These records cover all topics about Hawick and the Borders dating back to the birth of the town when Mary Queen of Scots was a child.
Well I have just scanned all of the digitised records for the words Gunn and Innes.
Gunn mentions:
Gunner, Gunners, Rev George Gunn, Marcus Gunn, Dr. Clement Gunn, George Gunn Bannerman, P.B Gunn, Gunning Men, Gunns Close.
Innes mentions:
Professor Cosmo Innes, takinnes, Prescott-Innes, Mr James Innes, Master William Innes, pinnes, Mrs Innes.
Not a single mention of Clan Gunn or Clan Inness in them.
Work that out!
As for being a pest.. I think that award goes to someone else!
Oh Shoot! Pun intended ;D ;D ;D ;D
Brett
@Forfarian, the Wilsons were either part of the Gunn Clan or the Innis Clan and our Wilsons were part of the Gunn Clan as Abe Gunn can tell you. He also said that there is usually an imposter trying to insert himself in every family. So common. All of the Hawick Wilsons know which Clan they belong to. No person named Gunn went to Australia? Poppycock.
So many irregularities in this Australian fairytale of epic proportion that need to be buttressed with so many explanations without documentation. Such an overwhelming response for my brief points that nobody else picked up on.
Multiple times I have found reference of BW as a 1st Cousin 5x removed to James Wilson, Economist but never have I seen it stated for what it MAY (on the 12th of never) be, illegitimate 1st Cousin 5x removed. Don't worry though, everyone who BW lied to sees through this charade.
I understand from several sources from Hawick that Brett made a real pest of himself when he visited claiming that he was a Wilson and his presence was not welcome. Nobody had ever heard of him.
I guess it's time to change the headstone again. ;)
-
the Wilsons were either part of the Gunn Clan or the Innis Clan and our Wilsons were part of the Gunn Clan as Abe Gunn can tell you.
I don't give a toss what some bloke I've never heard of called Abe Gunn says. I am looking at the facts as recorded in primary sources, and only those facts. Everything else is irrelevant.
All of the Hawick Wilsons know which Clan they belong to.
Balderdash. Most Lowland and Border Scots do not and never did belong to any historical clan, or if they do they don't care. There were and are probably millions of 'sons of William' out there who are descendants of Williams who had absolutely nothing to do with any clan. Some of them have undoubtedly been brainwashed by the brigadoon industry into believing that they belong to Clan Gunn or Clan Innes. Maybe even some of the canny folk of Hawick. Believing something doesn't make it a fact. Some people believe the Earth is flat or that Covid-19 is caused by 5g phobile networks.
So many irregularities in this Australian fairytale of epic proportion that need to be buttressed with so many explanations without documentation.
The documentation is there in those primary sources, and it is corroborated by the secondary sources: newspaper reports and the Hawick Word Book (which of course you have to dismiss because it doesn't contain your interpretation of the facts).
Be so kind as to note that in my summary I cited only the baptism record, marriage and death certificates, the census, the trade directories and Walter's own diary, all of which are primary sources recorded at the time of the event by the people concerned. There is no need for any other explanations, with or without documentation.
Multiple times I have found reference of BW as a 1st Cousin 5x removed to James Wilson, Economist but never have I seen it stated for what it MAY (on the 12th of never) be, illegitimate 1st Cousin 5x removed.
So? The fact that someone is illegitimate doesn't negate a cousinly connection.
Are we getting to the point now? That you just don't want to have to admit to illegitimacy in your family?
Illegitimacy was a fact of life in Scotland. The bulk of the records of most Kirk Sessions deals with the rather futile efforts of the Kirk to extirpate 'sin' in the form of extramarital fornication. After the first year of statutory registration, the authorities were horrified that the average rate of illegitimacy was 9.1%, and that in some rural counties it was more than double that. Don't take my word for that, of course. See https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1468-0289.1987.tb00419.x
They were Quakers by now and wouldn't have associated with a bastard.
If Jessie had illegitimate half-brothers and half-sisters and if they are related as Brett claims but can not prove, Walter still would not have been associating with his bastard cousin (if Brett's Great Great Grandfather was actually the cousin of Sir James Glenny Wilson), Sir James Glenny Wilson because James was a Quaker with high moral standards from a family with high moral standards. They were Quakers that didn't believe in war, debt and being louses creating children out of wedlock - you follow me here? If you want to be louse, that's fine but you can't be both a louse and a Quaker being part of a Quaker family or be a Quaker and hang around louses. My family also made the Quaker Chapel in Hawick - so they were really into the Quaker lifestyle all the way.
And here I was, naïvely imagining that Quakers were gentle, forgiving and open-minded, not a bunch of narrow-minded bigots intent on visiting the sins of the parents on innocent children. Such an unChristian way of looking at things, don't you think? But thank you for putting me right about that.
Illegitimate children had to be brought up somewhere, and Walter says that he was brought up by his father, and that although he was born in England he was taken across the Border soon afterwards and never set foot again in England for 21 years. There is no reason to doubt what Walter himself recorded about his own life.
Facts are chiels that winna ding. Whether you like it or not, the primary sources show that Brett is descended from a bastard line of your Wilson family, and no amount of obfuscation or futile wool-pulling on your part is going to change that. Get over it.
-
Spot on @Forfarian
Though all were bastards before religion came along ;-)
As for the Quakers, E.M Wilson is incorrect. It was only William Wilson (1764-1832)'s family that were Quakers, the rest of this particular Wilson family were Presbyterian. Willam was the older brother of my GGGG Grandfather Walter Wilson 1770-1847 who was Presbyterian.
The Quakerism connection only lasted for 2 generations in one line of the family (William's line) in fact, one might say one generation, as I am sure that the majority of his children converted out of Quakerism whilst alive, Including James Wilson (The Economist).
But you gotta give her points for trying ;-)
You are quite right on the Kirk Sessions.. So many children were born out of wedlock in those days. It appears that the parents largely god a kick in the shins, 100 Hail Mary's and had to make a small donation to the Church.
This reminds me of a current story..
Artist Delphine Boel has finally been acknowledged as Belgian Princess Delphine of Saxe-Coburg after a two-decade royal paternity scandal. ... The princess bears a striking resemblance to certain members of the royal family, including Albert II.
https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/sculptor-wins-20-year-fight-to-be-recognised-as-belgian-princess-39592760.html (https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/sculptor-wins-20-year-fight-to-be-recognised-as-belgian-princess-39592760.html)
E.M Wilson can't seem to agree that my Walter Wilson is related, or that he was a child born out of wedlock. You just can't win with her as she is simply out for revenge because I ignored her for some time. I think she has abandonment issues?
It was not easy dealing with her emails (when she was friendly) of many thousands of words on multiple subjects when I was busy. Most of the emails were moaning about her husband ( Armando Alvarez ) etc. I have a life...
She even accused me of blowing her off one time because I had something cooking on the stove. I had to then send her photographic proof of what I was cooking to placate her... Mmmm Bunny Boiler!
Brett
-
You are quite right on the Kirk Sessions.. So many children were born out of wedlock in those days. It appears that the parents largely god a kick in the shins, 100 Hail Mary's and had to make a small donation to the Church.
No Hail Marys in the Church of Scotland - that's a Roman Catholic thing and absolute anathema to a Presbyterian!
Apart from trying to stamp out 'sin', the Kirk had a parallel agenda, which was to prevent illegitimate children becoming a burden on parish funds by nailing the errant fathers and making them pay towards the maintenance of the child. Until the Act of Parliament setting up parochial boards and transferring responsibility for the poor of the parish from the kirk to the parochial board in 1845, a large proportion of kirk funds had to be applied to that.
-
Interesting info @Forfarian, and I was only mentioning the Hail Mary's in gest, as My Mother was a Catholic and that is what I was aware of as a child for Confession etc.
Brett
-
As for the Quakers, E.M Wilson is incorrect. It was only William Wilson (1764-1832)'s family that were Quakers, the rest were Presbyterian. Willam was the older brother of my GGGG Grandfather Walter Wilson 1770-1847 who was Presbyterian.
The Quakerism connection only lasted for 2 generations in one line of the family (William's line) in fact, one might say one generation, as I am sure that the majority of his children converted out of Quakerism whilst alive, Including James Wilson (The Economist).
You prompted me to have a look at the Statistical Accounts of Scotland.
The Old Statistical Account of Hawick, in 1793, says, "besides the Established Church, there are two meeting-houses; a Burgher and an Antiburgher ....". See attached screenshot.
The New Statistical Account mentions a chapel belonging to the Society of Friends, which is "frequented by only two families from this parish".
Both accounts make interesting reading - see https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/parish/Roxburgh/Hawick
-
Interesting info @Forfarian, and I was only mentioning the Hail Mary's in gest, as My Mother was a Catholic and that is what I was aware of as a child for Confession etc.
I didn't take it as serious :)
-
Interestingly, I have over 160 years of digitised Hawick Archaeological Society records.
That is interesting. How did you manage to snag those, Brett, and where can I get copies?
Regards,
Josephine
-
@Forfarian Interesting on the Statistical Accounts. I hadn't looked at those for many years.
As mentioned, it was was only William Wilson's line (1764-1832) that became Quakers and that barely lasted for a generation.
William died in London in 1832 of cholera, after attending a Quaker meeting of sorts. (I would have to look it up). I have a copy of a letter he wrote to his children from London just before his death.
@Josephine I received the HAS records on a hard drive in 2014 whilst in Hawick, from the then President of the Hawick Archaeological Society.
The files amount to 130 Gigabytes in total size, so they are not easily shared. The intention is that they will someday be available for members in a searchable format, via the Society's website and available to folk around the globe to access. http://hawickhistory.scot
"A Hawick Word Book" by Professor Douglas Scott is available and downloadable online and that is your best bet for detailed information at this point @Josephine.
I might add, that until Walter Wilson (1712-1795) AKA Handless Wat, came into the town of Hawick and became a successful traveling merchant, this Wilson family were simple tenant farmers as were most folk prior to the industrial revolution.
Attached is are two photos.
They are photos of Handless Wat's measuring stick with his name carved on it and a date of 1734 (Age 22). One is of the stick on display at the Tower House Textiles Museum in Hawick, and the other is of me holding the item when the curator of the museum kindly allowed me to hold it for a photograph.
Oh, and on another online forum where Hawick ghost stories were being discussed, I mentioned that:
I remember having a drink with Colin Murray (I think I have his name right, he was once Cornet) when I was in Hawick in 2014. He told me his son saw a ghost without a hand in their home at 9 High Street. And I said to him "That would be Handless Wat" who lived at that address "my GGGGG Grandfather" and he almost fell over.
To which Colin's wife replied in the forum: Av asked Colin and he said it was true that when Lyle was small he saw a one handed man and he wasni legless lol x no sorry couldn't help that but yes he swears Lyle said this x
:o
Brett
-
Bill GUNN was a significant chap in the Wool industry in Australia. 1914 - 2003
His forebears include WILSON. Scottish heritage. I never once heard him mention clan GUNN.
Babe GUNN was a great chap too. He was central west NSW focused. Another who I never heard mention Clan GUNN. I hear Babe' s deep laugh at the very concept. He died in 1985. Hubert George Mafeking GUNN.1900-1985.
JM.
-
We need a LIKE button for RootsChat Posts I think @MAJM
By Wendell E Wilson (Below)
Part 1.
Ancient Origins of the Wilson Families
The surname Wilson has roots in Ireland, Scotland and England, and before that some lines extend back into Normandy and Denmark. The surname appears to have originated independently in many different areas, and thus not all Wilsons today are related to each other. Five of the principal family lines bearing the name of Wilson in Britain today stem from (1) the ancient Irish, (2) Wolf of Denmark via clan Inness, (3) William of clan Gunn, (4) William de Waldershelf, and (5) an unknown Norman invader named Wilson. Spelling variants include Wilson, Willson, Willsonne, Wilsone, Wulson, Wilsoun, Wolsoun, Wolfson, Wilfson, Wylsone and others, some versions being older than others but the differences often meaning relatively little, since one man might spell his own name in more than one way at different times in his life.
Our Wilson line stems from the ancient Irish clans, as proven by DNA analysis (see below). However, before we get to the Irish Wilsons, let’s review all of what is currently known about the various other independent and mutually unrelated Wilson families in Great Britain:
The Norse Willsons of Scotland
Many of the English Wilsons are of Norman ancestry whereas some of the Scottish Willson's are mostly of Irish or Picto-Norse descent and represent either a branch (“sept”) of the clan Gunn in Caithness or the much older House of Inness in Banffshire. The clan Gunn Willson's are descended from George Gunn “the Crowner,” through his son William—hence “Will's son”—who lived in the late 1400’s.
The Wilsons of clan Gunn, however, were a relatively late-emerging Norse branch of the Wilson surname.
The name Wilson definitely dates to a much earlier time in Scotland. The early Nordic Wilsons were descended from a Danish Prince of the Royal House of Norway (Norway administered Denmark for centuries), and established themselves at a very remote period in the Orkney Islands, in the 9th century, soon after 888 when King Harold of Norway routed the more rebellious clans. The name occurs in the Viking Sagas and the Orkneyinga Sagas.
European historians generally refer to the period between the 8th and 11th centuries as the Viking Age. The Vikings expanded east, west and south from Scandinavia through trading, raiding and the establishment of settlements. From bases in Sweden they invaded the Baltic region and Russia; from Denmark they invaded England, France and coastal Spain. The Shetland and Orkney Islands were the first of the British Isles to be colonized around 780, and by 800 the Western Isles, the Faeroe Islands and Iceland were colonized.
In the Orkney Islands the indigenous Pictish population may have been entirely replaced by Viking settlers from Denmark. Numerous Viking settlements sprang up both east and west of present-day Cheshire County where our Tattenhall Wilsons were to be centered. Scotland did not regain administrative control of all of these lands until 1469, and the language called Norn, the Norse dialect of Shetland and Orkney, survived there until the 19th century.
Part 2 in the next reply post.
-
Part 2.
Ancient Origins of the Wilson Families
These earliest Wilsons stem specifically from a Danish tribe who followed a 9th- century Prince named Wolf—which allegedly gave all Wilsons who possessed a grant of arms the privilege of using the golden wolf on their family crest. The Wilson surname from this line is a corruption of “Wolf’s son” and “Wilf’s son.” Apparently any Wilson coat of arms containing the rampant wolf, and there are a number of them, indicates an ancient line stemming from Prince Wolf in the 9th century.
The Wilsons of Sandbach in Cheshire, for example, situated just a few miles from Tattenhall where our Wilsons lived, had just such a coat of arms: a golden wolf on a black background surmounted by three gold stars (or, in the old English/French language of heraldry: “Sable, a wolf rampant Or, in chief three estoiles of the second”). One might theorize that our Wilsons, in such close proximity but of commoner status by the 18th century, were from the same stock but had lost their armorial roots over the generations. That, however, would be wrong.
It should be noted that the name Wilson was recorded in Ayrshire at least a hundred years prior to the time of William Gunn: a Michael Wilson, born in the mid- 1300’s, was burgess of Ayr in 1418. That example alone predates the Wilsons of the clan Gunn by at least a century or more, and probably stems from the more ancient clan Inness, Wilsons who had taken their name from Prince Wolf. The Wilsons of the Tattenhall and Carden area who trace their ancestry to Andrew Willsonne (born ca. 1450) also predate William Gunn.
During the creation of the Scottish boroughs under King David of Scotland (1084-1153) many English/Welsh people came north to settle in the new boroughs; Irish –descended and Norman-descended Wilsons may have been among them. In any case, the Ayrshire group of Wilsons is considerably larger than any other branch of Wilsons in Scotland, and they also seem to have held lands in Ireland.
The Norse-descended clan Inness Wilsons and clan Gunn Wilsons took lands around Berwickshire, Ayrshire, Fraserburgh, Fingach, Kelton, Glenderston, Glasgow and Edinburgh, and are especially numerous today in Ulster. They aided William the Conquerer by taking part in the war on the side of the Vikings, whom Harold of England fought in the North of England prior to the battle of Hastings in 1066. This was a diversionary tactic which drew Harold's attention from the actual invasion site of William the Conquerer in the south of England.
Although the surname Wilson is among the 30 most common surnames in Ireland today, it was formerly thought that all Wilsons from Ireland were actually of Scottish ancestry, descended from Scots who went there after the religious wars when King William of Orange (1650-1702) settled Protestant lowland Scottish families there. DNA analysis, however, has shown that many Northern Irish Wilsons are instead descended from an Irish warlord over a thousand years earlier, long predating the Scottish immigration there. The Wilson name today is most common in Ulster, and also in Antrim, Armagh, Down, Tyrone, Dublin, Derry and Fermanagh..
The Irish and Norse-Scottish Wilsons also moved south into England, especially after the disbanding of the Scottish border clans in 1603. Major branches of the Wilson family were established in Eshton Hall, Yorkshire; Melton, Bankhall; Penrith in Cumberland; Casterton Hall in Westmoreland; Forest Hall in Northumberland; and Rivington Hall in Lancashire.
Part 3 in a following reply
-
Part 3.
Ancient Origins of the Wilson Families
The Wilson family of Ayrshire was a Covenanting Protestant family. (“Covenanters” were adherents of the “National Covenant,” a 1638 agreement among Scottish Presbyterians to uphold their faith.) The name is also seen in the land of Kintyre (a peninsula between Scotland and Ireland) where the Ayrshire Wilsons who were Covenanters settled and were given farm land.
The Wilson's in Glasgow are predominantly related to the Wilson family that originated in 11th-century Berwickshire, Scotland and moved out into Ayrshire, during the formation of the Royal Boroughs under Kind David, and later into Kintyre (during the Covenanting wars).
This accounts for the earliest records of the name, which are found in Yorkshire, Berwickshire and Ayrshire. Berwickshire is situated along the border of Scotland and England, but was originally part of Scotland. The earliest written historical records of the name Wilson as a Scottish name are in Berwickshire, which is where the Wilsons of the lands south of Edinburgh and on the West coast, Ayrshire and Kintyre, are claimed to descend from. It is interesting to note that Berwick is barely a stone’s throw from Yorkshire, where the Norman-descended Wilsons of Jerusalem Hill are to be found.
The murder of the “virgin martyr” Margaret Wilson (who was of Berwickshire) at the hands of Oliver Cromwell (1599-1658) caused many Wilsons who were Covenanters to go west into Ayrshire and later Argyll. One instance of this is Margaret's brother, who was outraged at his sister’s murder and became a soldier in the Covenanting army which opposed Cromwell and his slaughter of Presbyterians. After waging war he fled to Kintyre and ultimately Ireland and may have ended up in the American colonies as a fugitive.
The Norman Wilsons of Jerusalem Hill, Yorkshire
In Yorkshire the name of Wilson of Jerusalem Hill (not our line) is attributed to the descendents of Sir William (Will) de Waldershelf, a knight from the Pennine Hills of Hunshelf and Waldershelf in Normandy, who came to the British Isles to join William the Conquerer after the conquest in 1066 and was apportioned lands in Yorkshire.
His descendant, John de Hunshelf and de Waldershelf, born around 1320, had a son William whose son John was the first to take the surname Wilson, in honor of their ancestor. This Yorkshire Wilson family is of the peerage, and their full and documented family tree can be found in older editions of Burke’s Peerage. Despite being from Normandy, their coat of arms is similar to that of most of the Nordic Wilson arms, with a rampant Wilson wolf surmounted by three stars, and similar latin mottoes including Aut pax, aut bellum (“Either in peace or in war”) and Vincit qui se vincit (“He conquers who conquers himself”).
As indicated above, some of the Norman Wilsons were apparently also the descendants of the original Danish Wilsons. They had been driven out of Scotland and England in 1002 by King Ethelred the Unready because he feared (justifiably) that they were against him. Fleeing to France, they returned with William the Conqueror and were by then considered Normans.
The Wilson family is found in the Domesday Book (William the Conqueror’s census of England in 1086), indicating that people of that surname (distinct from William de Waldershelf’s Norman line) had come to Britain with William the Conquerer in 1066. In Devon a Manorial Lordship dating from the Domesday Book is also called Wilson. The arms include the emblematic Wilson wolf with a fleur-de-lis overhead representing Normandy, and the motto of Wil sone wil (a pun on the name, translating as “Get one’s way”).
Recent Genetic Research
There is new and current speculation based on some recent evidence found in a huge DNA study (drawn on by the BBC for their show “The blood of the Vikings”). DNA samples were taken from groups across the four countries of the British Isles in order to determine the impact and spread of the Danish bloodlines, especially in the areas which were traditionally known to be Viking: the area of “the Danelaw” lands in northeastern England, and northeastern Scotland (Caithness and Orkney).
It was revealed that the Irish today are predominantly descended from the “Britons” or Brythonic Celts, as are most of the Welsh, and are not of Danish or Norman ancestry. Areas of northeastern Scotland and the Danelaw areas of England, on the other hand, were found to be predominantly of Danish/Norman descent.
The Wilson name, however, does have some representation in northern Wales, and this is also an area of A+ blood grouping—a blood group which only people of Nordic descent have. [See, for example, Helgason et al. (2001) MtDNA and the islands of the North Atlantic: estimating the proportions of Norse and Gaelic ancestry. American Journal of Human Genetics, vol. 68, pp. 723-737.]
<<Ends>>
-
@Josephine I received the HAS records on a hard drive in 2014 whilst in Hawick, from the then President of the Hawick Archaeological Society.
The files amount to 130 Gigabytes in total size, so they are not easily shared. The intention is that they will someday be available for members in a searchable format, via the Society's website and available to folk around the globe to access. http://hawickhistory.scot
"A Hawick Word Book" by Professor Douglas Scott is available and downloadable online and that is your best bet for detailed information at this point @Josephine.
Brett
Thanks, Brett.
Are the digitized Transactions a perk of lifetime membership in the Hawick Archaeological Society? If so, where do I sign up?
I contacted the Society several years ago (prior to 2014) and was told about their intentions, but it still hasn't happened and I'm starting to doubt it'll happen in my lifetime. Have they even got a timeline for the launch? I'm shocked to learn that all of the Transactions were already digitized 7 years ago and nothing's been done with them: what a waste of potential income for the Society! At this point, it would probably make more sense financially to make them available for sale on CDs. If and when an index ever gets done and put up on their website, people could use both, or they could purchase the indexes on supplemental CDs.
I am familiar with Douglas Scott's impressive Hawick Word Book and consider it to be a helpful pointer but he doesn't list his sources, so when he writes something like, "A story is told that..." or "He is said to have...," I don't know where he got this information.
Unless Douglas Scott also has copies of all of the digitized Transactions?
The photos are very nice!
Regards,
Josephine
-
Hi @Josephine,
No the digitised transactions were not perk. They were given to me to assess, as to how they could be best used on the website.
I made a number of suggestions as to what could be done.
These records were essentially OCR scans, and each batch of text has a reference number that also corresponds to the image that the texts were scanned from.
Douglas Scott sources his information from many books and records (including the Transactions).
His Father R.E Scott or Dick Scott, probably knew more about the history of Hawick than anyone else, and he was a prolific collector of books and information on everything to do with the Scottish Borders, but with a focus on Hawick. He was also the Curator of the Wilton Lodge (Hawick Museum) http://www.hawickonline.com/wilton-lodge-park (http://www.hawickonline.com/wilton-lodge-park) So his passion has apparently flowed down to the next generation of his family.
You can read all about R.E Scott in the Hawick Word Book.
The is a great book by R.E Scott called "Companion to Hawick". See attached. Douglas gave me a copy of it in 2014. You can buy one online if you search for it.
I know that there was some work being done for the Society to make HAS records available online, but I have not really had an update on this matter for a couple of years now.
Brett
@Josephine I received the HAS records on a hard drive in 2014 whilst in Hawick, from the then President of the Hawick Archaeological Society.
The files amount to 130 Gigabytes in total size, so they are not easily shared. The intention is that they will someday be available for members in a searchable format, via the Society's website and available to folk around the globe to access. http://hawickhistory.scot
"A Hawick Word Book" by Professor Douglas Scott is available and downloadable online and that is your best bet for detailed information at this point @Josephine.
Brett
Thanks, Brett.
Are the digitized Transactions a perk of lifetime membership in the Hawick Archaeological Society? If so, where do I sign up?
I contacted the Society several years ago (prior to 2014) and was told about their intentions, but it still hasn't happened and I'm starting to doubt it'll happen in my lifetime. Have they even got a timeline for the launch? I'm shocked to learn that all of the Transactions were already digitized 7 years ago and nothing's been done with them: what a waste of potential income for the Society! At this point, it would probably make more sense financially to make them available for sale on CDs. If and when an index ever gets done and put up on their website, people could use both, or they could purchase the indexes on supplemental CDs.
I am familiar with Douglas Scott's impressive Hawick Word Book and consider it to be a helpful pointer but he doesn't list his sources, so when he writes something like, "A story is told that..." or "He is said to have...," I don't know where he got this information.
Unless Douglas Scott also has copies of all of the digitized Transactions?
The photos are very nice!
Regards,
Josephine
-
Thank you, Brett. I think I have a better understanding now. I will look for the book you recommended.
Hawick must be a special place, indeed, for it to have inspired so much dedication and loyalty.
Regards,
Josephine
-
Not a problem @Josephine,
There were also lots of Buccleuch records, Business directories, Tax records and much more.
Some of the tax records were crazy. Dog Tax, Horse Tax, Hearth (Fire Place) Tax, Clock/Watch Tax and even a Windows Tax.
I believe that the Window's Tax (A tax on how many windows a building had), is where the term "Daylight Robbery" came from, as people boarded up their windows to avoid being taxed for them, hence a lack of daylight making its way into a building. Being robbed of daylight..
All of these such records help with ancestry research. And Scottish naming patterns can also help when they are adhered to.
Brett
-
Hi Everyone, my name is Kelly Wilson, my uncle spent over 2 years traveling and tracing our family heritage to discover that we are direct descendants of James Wilson and George Wilson (first cousins 5-6 down the line apparently)
I myself don't have the financial means to travel around the world to find out more information about my heritage as I live in Australia but would really love to know more. Is there any documentation that would help me trace back my history or any other information you could share to help me? Anything would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you for your time.
Kelly Wilson
-
I believe that the Window's Tax (A tax on how many windows a building had), is where the term "Daylight Robbery" came from, as people boarded up their windows to avoid being taxed for them, hence a lack of daylight making its way into a building. Being robbed of daylight..
Interesting. I'm familiar with the term "highway robbery" but not "daylight robbery."
Regards,
Josephine
-
Hi Everyone, my name is Kelly Wilson, my uncle spent over 2 years traveling and tracing our family heritage to discover that we are direct descendants of James Wilson and George Wilson (first cousins 5-6 down the line apparently)
I myself don't have the financial means to travel around the world to find out more information about my heritage as I live in Australia but would really love to know more. Is there any documentation that would help me trace back my history or any other information you could share to help me? Anything would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you for your time.
Kelly Wilson
Hi, Kelly, and welcome to Rootschat.
I'm sure someone will be able to help you. It might be useful to state which James Wilson and George Wilson you're referring to.
Regards,
Josephine
-
I believe that the Window's Tax (A tax on how many windows a building had), is where the term "Daylight Robbery" came from, as people boarded up their windows to avoid being taxed for them, hence a lack of daylight making its way into a building. Being robbed of daylight..
Interesting. I'm familiar with the term "highway robbery" but not "daylight robbery."
Regards,
Josephine
Attached is a snippet on the term Daylight Robbery. It is an Oxford Dictionary term I believe. So if you are American, it may not be a familiar term @Josephine.
Sir James Augustus Henry Murray, FBA was a Scottish lexicographer and philologist. He was the primary editor of the Oxford English Dictionary from 1879 until his death.
Sir James was also a school teacher in Hawick. In the book, "The Wilson Story" he gets a mention as he taught some of the Wilson's.
Sir James is also played by Mel Gibson in the movie "The Professor and the Madman".
Brett
-
Hi Everyone, my name is Kelly Wilson, my uncle spent over 2 years traveling and tracing our family heritage to discover that we are direct descendants of James Wilson and George Wilson (first cousins 5-6 down the line apparently)
I myself don't have the financial means to travel around the world to find out more information about my heritage as I live in Australia but would really love to know more. Is there any documentation that would help me trace back my history or any other information you could share to help me? Anything would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you for your time.
Kelly Wilson
Hi, Kelly, and welcome to Rootschat.
I'm sure someone will be able to help you. It might be useful to state which James Wilson and George Wilson you're referring to.
Regards,
Josephine
Hey Kelly
What are you doing here?
It was more like 9 years of family research (thousands of hours and many many thousands of dollars).
I spent 3 months in Hawick in 2014 pouring over every record I could find, walking past every grave in every cemetery surrounding Hawick.
Just to be on the side of correctness. I think that the James and George that you refer to is James Wilson 1805-1860 and his brother George Wilson 1815-1898. There are many other siblings to them also.
We are not actually direct descendants of James and George, but they are considered our ancestors. James and George were 1st cousins to my GGG Grandfather (Your GGGG Grandfather) Walter Wilson 1798-1862, Cabinet Maker from Hawick.
James and George's grandfather, Walter Wilson 1712-1795 AKA Handless Wat, is my GGGGG Grandfather and your GGGGGG Grandfather ;-)
Hope you are well Kelly (Red Jelly Bean)
Brett
-
We are not actually direct descendants of James and George, but they are considered our ancestors.
Your ancestors are only the people from whom you are directly descended. James and George are your distant relatives; they are not your ancestors.
Regards,
Josephine
-
Attached is a snippet on the term Daylight Robbery. It is an Oxford Dictionary term I believe. So if you are American, it may not be a familiar term @Josephine.
Thank you, Brett.
Regards,
Josephine
-
We are not actually direct descendants of James and George, but they are considered our ancestors.
Your ancestors are only the people from whom you are directly descended. James and George are your distant relatives; they are not your ancestors.
Regards,
Josephine
Hi Josephine,
The definition of the noun "ancestor" seems to vary depending on the source of the definition.
At https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ancestor (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ancestor) it suggests that an Ancestor is a person related to you who lived a long time ago.
The Oxford Dictionary gives a similar explanation at: https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/ancestor (https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/ancestor)
However; the Merriam Webster's Dictionary, which I believe is an American dictionary, suggests that the word Ancestor means: "One from whom a person is descended and who is usually more remote in the line of descent than a grandparent" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ancestor (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ancestor)
The earlier two referenced dictionaries are British of course.
(Updated)
Regards
Brett
-
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, Brett. That learner's dictionary seems overly simplified.
See:
https://www.etymonline.com/word/ancestor
Regards,
Josephine
Edited to add:
This article includes a definition: https://www.familytreemagazine.com/strategies/collateralrelative/
-
Yes Josephine,
We shall have to agree to disagree.
I was raised in Australia using British English, so the dictionaries we used, were the likes of the Oxford Dictionary. So in this case, and Australian and an American would have had a different education in some ways, particularly in relation to spelling and grammar.
In my words, I generally say that past related members of my family are ancestors, yet I would refer to a GGGG grandfather (for example) to be a Direct Ancestor.
But I get your point Josephine.
Brett
-
Sir James Augustus Henry Murray, FBA was a Scottish lexicographer and philologist. He was the primary editor of the Oxford English Dictionary from 1879 until his death.
Sir James was also a school teacher in Hawick. In the book, "The Wilson Story" he gets a mention as he taught some of the Wilson's.
Sir James is also played by Mel Gibson in the movie "The Professor and the Madman".
I wonder how on earth Mel Gibson would manage to include his trademark bare backside shot in a film about Sir James?
Er ... I'll get my coat, shall I? ...
-
Sir James Augustus Henry Murray, FBA was a Scottish lexicographer and philologist. He was the primary editor of the Oxford English Dictionary from 1879 until his death.
Sir James was also a school teacher in Hawick. In the book, "The Wilson Story" he gets a mention as he taught some of the Wilson's.
Sir James is also played by Mel Gibson in the movie "The Professor and the Madman".
I wonder how on earth Mel Gibson would manage to include his trademark bare backside shot in a film about Sir James?
Haha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO0TbcAkhYY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO0TbcAkhYY)
Brett
Er ... I'll get my coat, shall I? ...
-
Turnbull was not in Rulewater until after 1314
-
Hi James
You used the report to moderator button and sent a message, Publican and Smith, in reply to an earlier post #1 by AndiR.
I'm putting it here so others can see.
Dawn
-
OKAY