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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Carmarthenshire Lookup Requests => Carmarthenshire => Wales => Carmarthenshire Completed Requests => Topic started by: timaussie on Saturday 21 January 06 11:41 GMT (UK)
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In my research I have uncovered that my ancestors were the publicans of the Old Cross Inn at Ammonford (formally Cross Inn Village) parish Llandebie for some time and lived onsite.
The following recorded them as publican of the Inn:
John CLEMENT - 1861C & 1871C (died 1873, 82)
Hannah CLEMENT, his wife - 1881C (died 1888, 87)
Anne JONES, their widowed daughter - 1891C & 1901C (died1919, 91)
William MORRIS, their son-in law (wife Sarah clement) -commercial directories 1910 & 1914. They died 1944 and 1925 respectively.
So I am interested in the following:
1. Check the 1841c for who as publican and living at Old Cross Inn (OCI). The Clements were found elsewhere at this time so maybe inherited from a related family.
2. Does anyone have any history or old photos of the OCI around the times mentioned.
3. If someone living in Ammanford could take digital photo of the inn as it is now and send to me.
4. Is there any directories or publican licence records that could confirm when OCI was in my ancestors ownership outside the census period.
A big wish list but any additional knowledge would be gratefull.
Thanks,Tim
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Oops I mean't check 1851c not 1841c.
Tim
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I have looked through various indexes for Cross Inn in Ammanford (Cross Inn) and i think this is it in 1851
It is the first dwelling Cross Inn (schedule number 1) of HO107/2471 page 1 (folio number not shown)
William Howells - head - Inn Keeper - 44 - Llandilo, Carms
Ann Howells - wife - 44 - Llandybie, Carms
Gweny Ann Morgans - Niece - 4 - Llandybie, Carms
There were 5 servants and 2 lodgers
Will send you a photo at weekend, send me your email on pm
David
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Thanks David for your search and offer to take a photo of the inn. I will send you my details. I can't as yet see any family connection to the Howells although Hannah's maiden name was Morgan.
Tim
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Don't know if this is of any interest, but it was my Great Grandfather Evan Evans who built the Arcade and buildings opposite the Cross Inn in Ammanford. Visited it in July this year lots of old photographs on the wall. Although have to say not the greatest pub in the world today! :)
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Dear Tim
John and Hannah Clements were my 3XG grandparents. I plan to visit the Cross Inn area in January 2009. So please share any further information you have.
Ann
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Hi Ann,
I hope we can share information. I have sent you a PM with my email address. Here is some information which I hope confirms the same Clements.
John Clement
c:12Feb1792, St Teilo, LlandelioTalybont parish Glam
d:3Mar1873(82), Ammanford, Carms
Married: 18Jan1825, Llanedy parish, Carms
Hannah Morgan
c: Unknown
d: 15Mar1888(87), Ammanford, Carms
They had three children(that I know):
John b:abt1825
Ann b: abt1828 - I am a descendant from her
Edward b: abt 1831
Who do you descend from? Look forward to hearing from you.
Tim
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Terry Norman has a good site on Ammanford with many pictures.
www.terrynorm.ic24.net or just put in Ammanford.
The history section at the end gives the fate of the 4 inns that formed the Cross Inn cross roads.
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Tim,
My 4th Great Grandfather, William Morgan (1756-1835), and his wife Sarah Thomas(?) (1758-1858) had seven children. The third was named Hannah, and she married someone named Clements. I nothing else about him, or their children. These Morgans lived at Tyllwyd, in Llanedy Parish. Their grandson Lewis and his family came to the U.S. in 1872. This is my first post, so I can't send you a PM, but I'd like to share information about the Morgans and the Clements.
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This may be of interest...it's a hand-drawn map of the area south of Ammanford. It Includes "Cross Inn" and part of Llanedy Parish. It was drawn by a Parry who married into the William & Sarah Morgan family of Llanedy Parish. (Their daughter Hannah married a Clement.)
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Hi
I came across this post today. My family lived in Ammanford from the mid 1800's and some of the family still live there. I suppose by now thatsomeone has told you that there were 2 Cross Inns on the Square in Ammanford one at the corner of Wind Street and College Street and the other at the corner of Quay Street and High Street. I have some old pictures dating back to about 1900 of the Square at Ammanford showing the Cross Inn at the corner of Wind Street and Colege Street and the row of shops leading up to the Arcade in College Street. This Cross Inn was knocked down in the 1960's and replaced by a modern monstrosity called The Bard. The other Cross Inn still existed in the 1990's when I left Ammanford and I believe it was still there when I last visited in 2005. Both buildings were quite old. I know one was always refered to as the Old Cross by my grandmother but I'm not sure which. I never went into Public Houses in Ammanford as my family were Chapel and Teetotal officially but I know some of my Uncles used to visit the back doors in the 1950's as I was occasionally asked to keep watch for any Ladies of the Chapel for some extra pocket money. A lot of the descendants of old Ammanford families still live there some in their 80's who would be able to tell you far more about the town and local families. I think of the Watkin- Rees and Rhys Emmanuel, Tarrs, Harries, Evans and Davies families in particular,most of whom were traders in the town during the 20th Century. If you would like a copy of the photo let me know.
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Hi All,
Sadly according to the South Wales Guardian the Old Cross Inn, Ammanford, closed its doors for the last time last Monday. :(
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Thanks 'StepheEv' & 'Lisbeths' for your replies.
The Old Cross Inn that my ancestors owned - CLEMENTS then JONES then MORRIS according to census records was the one at #1 High Street. If you have any photos of this one then that would be great.
It is sad to hear the report of the inns closing. Is there any newspaper report on its closing and maybe history available for copy?
Any info greatly appreciated.
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On the 3 June in the South Wales Guardian the closure of the Old Cross Inn was reported. I wil attempt to attach a link.
http://www.southwalesguardian.co.uk/news/ammanfordnews/4414871.Last_orders_at_Ammanford_town_pub/
Roy
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I have today signed on rootschat.com and was intrigued by the sketch in from HaiawathaMorgan dated 21 March 09. I originally hailed from Ammanford (Cross Inn) and my parents lived at 9/11 The Square. I would surmise that the original was sketched by John Owen Parry, an Ammanford Architect. At No 15 on the sketch he shows my grandfather's, Edward Rees' house (Bodlondeb) and at No 9 he shows Mountain Gate Inn where my great grandfather, David Watkins was the Innkeeper. John Owen Parry was also related to the Watkins.
The posting of StephEv of 1 December 07 was of interest as Elizabeth Emanuel, my great grandmother, was responsible for developing the retail buildings (through her son-in-law, Joseph Phillips) on the opposite of the Evan Evans' development on Ammanford Square. These buildings (including the original Lloyds Bank buildings) faced the "Cross Inn" on the Wind Street side and "Old Cross" on the Quay Street side. (I believe StephEv is the son of Gordon, a contemporare of mine who practised as a photographer in Malta).
I was also interested in the posting of lizbeths, dated 2 June 09 in which she mentions the old families of Ammanford. The Watkin-Rees's and Emmanuels are part of my ancestry. I still have a sister and brother residing in the town.
I possess quite a few photographs of Ammanford circa 1910 - 1914.
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The 24 September post by gw-r contained several things of interest to me.
Mountain Gate Inn, where David Watkins was the Innkeeper, was previously run by the mother of Rachel Watkins: Rachel Parry (born Rachel Morgan). Rachel Parry is listed in the 1881 census as a licensed victualer at Mountain Gate. I presume that David Watkins is the same Watkins who was married to Rachel Parry's daughter. Rachel Parry's son David is the father of John Owen Parry.
Also, Rachel Morgan Parry’s mother may have been a Rachel Rees (married to William Morgan)…any connection to Edward Rees at Bodlondeb?
I'd be very interested in any old photographs of the Mountain Gate Inn. Thanks.
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In response to HaiawathaMorgans posting of 05 Dec 09, the following should be of interest:
Rachel (Morgan) Parry was listed I the 1851 and 1861 Censuses as wife of John Parry (Colliery Labourer) living at “Hendrewen” in the first instance and “Mountain Gate” in the second when they were shown to have 4 sons (including David Parry “Engine Driver” – the father of John Owen Parry) and Rachel Parry). Presumably John, in addition to his colliery occupation, became the Publican of Mountain Gate. Presumably John died in the 1860s as Rachel Parry is shown as the “Publican” in the 1871 Census, “Licensed Victualler” in the 1881 Census, and “Inn Keeper” in the 1891; all entries relating to Mountain Gate.
Rachel Parry (daughter) married David Watkins (Colliery Miner) and in the 1871 Census is shown as living at “Place y Mount”, in the 1881 at “Wernoleu, Llanedy” and the 1891 Census at “Hinduisaf, Llandebie”. In the 1901 Census they are living at Mountain Gate with David Watkins’ occupation listed as “Haulier above ground and Innkeeper of pub”. David and Rachel had 4 sons and 4 daughters (including Rachel who married my grandfather, Edward Owen Rees). David Watkins died on 27 Nov 1911 and I believe his eldest son, John, took over the tenancy. Rachel died on 24 April 1924.
Edward Owen and Rachel Rees lived at “Gwalia House” which is the row of houses adjacent to Mountain Gate. The 1901 Census shows David Parry as living with them. They moved to “Bodlondeb” about a decade later. They had 4 sons (including my father, David Watkin, who became articled as an Architect, Surveyor and Civil & Mining Engineer to John Owen Parry) and 3 daughters.
I do not have old photographs of Mountain Gate but I attach photographs of David and Rachel Watkins.
Rachel (Morgan) Parry’s mother, Rachel Rees, would not have been related to Edward Owen Rees’s family. His family came from the Llanidloes area. His father, Abel Owen Rees, is shown in the 1861 Census as a “Wool Carder” living at Cwmbelan Factory, Llanidloes. I believe he became involved with Lord David of Llandinam in the construction of the Cambrian Coast Railway where Abel Rees’s expertise was used when sheep’s wool was packed into the marshy ground around Machynllech to support the railway track. Following this, Abel Owen Rees and family moved to Llanarthney, as the 1871 Census shows him as a “Colliery Clerk”. The 1881 Census shows him as “Colliery Manager” living at “Rose Cottage, Llandebie” – the collieries concerned were the Rhos and the Wernos. Abel Owen had 4 sons and 3 daughters.
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Hi,
Blwyddyn newydd dda. One of my ancestors, born in Llandybie, was the illeg. son of Phillip (Em)manuel - a miller. Phillip had another illeg child, with the same woman, called Elizabeth Emanuel b.1820/1. Could this be the same Elizabeth Emanuel that you are referring to?
Emyr
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Happy New Year to you also,
I do not think that Elizabeth Emmanuel, one of your ancestors, can be the same Elizabeth Emanuel, my great grandmother, whose maiden name I do not know. She was born in Llangennech circa 1835 and entered service with the Emanuel family at Wernddu Farm, Ammanford. Whilst working on the farm she lost an arm in a threshing machine.
She married David Emanuel (11 years her junior) and at the time it was remarked "what is David marrying Elizabeth for as she will be no use as a farmer's wife?" Subsequently, David and Elizabeth opened a Grocer's shop in Wind Street adjacent to the "old" New Inn with its thatched roof opposite the location of the Cross Inn Hotel (see photo below). They had four daughters that survived childbirth; Anne, Mary, Rachel and Lizzie - all of whom were educated at Abbey House, a private school in Llandeilo. David Emanuel committed suicide in 1898. Elizabeth, was a very shrewd and successful business woman and continued to run the shop, despite the fact that she could neither read nor write. Her daughters entered the daily transactions when they returned from school!
Her eldest daughter Lizzie married Joseph Phillips, a tinplate worker from Pantyfynnon and a prominent rugby player and cricketer in Ammanford. On Elizabeth's retirement to a house she built in College Street. Joseph Phillips was responsible for developing the Lloyds Bank Block in Quay Street (see recent photograph below); one unit of which became his delicatessant shop whilst Mary Emanuel (his sister-in-law) ran Emanuel's ladies outfitters next door.
The third photograph shows Elizabth Emanuel at her house in College Street surrounded by her family. Her "lost" left arm is concealed by her shawl. Joe Phillips is the one with a moustache and Mary Emanuel is next to him on the right. Others in the photograph are Ivor Elias (my grandfather) and Rachel (his wife), Anne Phillips and Ivor Elias and Phyllis Elias (my mother)
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StephEv -
Greetings!
I am also decended from Mr Evan Evans!
Do you know any more details of family connections? It would be great to compare notes! I have an extensive family tree in excel format, if you'd like to take a look?
Yours,
Cadell ab Arawn
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An update on The Od Cross
It did close as recorded in an earlier post and has now re-opened under the leadership of theowners of the Baird (now known as The Square) and run as a carvery.
The Square closed last week as the owners of the property and also owned a few others went into liquidation. The current tenant who also runs the Old cross moved all he could from th Square to th Old Cross. I understand that he has lost his deposit and all the cash he spent on refurbishment o I do not blame him for taking everything that was not "screwed down"
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I do not think that Elizabeth Emmanuel, one of your ancestors, can be the same Elizabeth Emanuel, my great grandmother, whose maiden name I do not know. She was born in Llangennech circa 1835 and entered service with the Emanuel family at Wernddu Farm, Ammanford. Whilst working on the farm she lost an arm in a threshing machine.
She married David Emanuel (11 years her junior)
There are possibilities for the marriage in Llandilofawr and Llanelli districts, on freebmd. Also if you purchase a birth certificate for one of the children, it will give Elizabeth's maiden name. For example, Lizzie Emanuel birth in 1874 (March quarter)
Llanelly volume 11a page 790
Kind Regards
Morgan