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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ross & Cromarty => Topic started by: linmey on Wednesday 25 January 06 14:36 GMT (UK)
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I have just registered with Scotlands People and not being a local lass I was wondering if anyone knows which area I would need to look in to find someone born in Muir of Ord. I thought it may be Dingwall, but I am not having much luck with that.
Thanks very much. Linda.
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:)
hi
by googling it comes up as Ross-shire.
ricky
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Hi there,
It is in the county of Ross and Cromarty, but I don't know which parish within that.
Cheers,
Clare
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Thanks very much for your replies. I have had a bit of luck now and it seems they were in a district called Urray. Is that near Muir of Ord or if not perhaps they moved there later. At least I have found them on the 1901 census.
many thanks. linda.
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hi there,
muir-of-ord is the village within the parish of urray in the county of ross & cromarty.
it is surrounded on all sides by the following parishes:
contin, fodderty, urquhart & logie wester, killearnan, and beauly(think it is called parish of kilmorack though). all of these are in the county of ross&cromarty except for beauly which is in the county of inverness.
hope this helps a little.
kind regards,
Lorna.
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Hello Lorna,
Thank you very much for all that information. I have a much better idea of the area now. I had never heard of Urray so at first I thought I had the wrong family but thank goodness it was the right one.
Best Wishes. Linda.
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my ancestors lived there. i did too until about 10years ago and my dad still lives there now....
anything i might be able to help you with??
kind regards,
Lorna.
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Thats really kind Lorna. I have never even visited the area. I have found the family living at Fairburn House and I think my great grandfather was head game keeper on the Fairburn estate. The problem is that before that they moved around so much I cant track them down before 1891 when they settled in the Urray district. They had 10 children so I know I have the right family as some of the names are unusual. The children were all born in different places, well the older ones anyway, so I will have to track them down by the kids birth places. Its also easier to track them down in the highlands. Its not easy to single out a Burns in Lanarkshire where the family originated from.
I will let you know if I have any questions. Happy Burns night.
Best wishes Linda.
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Hi there. Just seen your old enquiries about Muir of Ord. One thing to remember is that Urray is pronounced as in 'hurry' not as in 'hooray'. My Chisholm ancestors came fro Urray in 1711. There was a particular branch of Sutherlands who lived at Fairburn ( Coul of Fairburn to be exact), which is a part of the village of Marybank, in the 19th century There is a burial ground nearby, as well as a cemetery adjacent to a church. I have the MI for these cemeteries and if you would like me to look up any names just let me know. The Sutherlands emigrated to the USA in 1884 and their descendants have the exotic names of Hudaverdi and Parseghian!!!
Matthew Chisholm
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Hello Matthew, Thank you for your reply. My great grandfather was John Burns who was born in Lanarkshire in 1844 and moved to the Fairburn estate where he was head gamekeeper. They had 10 children and I do have a record of all their names and dates of birth.
Thank you for the information on Urray. I was pronouncing in "hooray". If I can think of any names I would like looked up I will certainly contact you. Thank you very much for the offer.
Best wishes. Linda.
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Thank you, Linda. Do you know the name of the estate owners when your forebear was gamekeeper? Matthew
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Hello Matthew,
I believe they were the Stirling family. I have no idea when my gg grandfather retired but I believe one of his sons took over as head gamekeeper.
Regards Linda.
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the Stirlings still own Fairburn Estate and Estate Records might help with your search. Fairburn House is now a nursing home and the Stirling family live on a smaller house on the Estate
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Hello Lynmey.
I saw your post regarding Fairburn Estate. I have some very interesting information regarding your ancestors. Is it possible we could communicate by e-mail.
Regards,
Jim
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I am a new member (live in the US) and discovered this thread on Muir of Ord. My mother Aileen Campbell was born on the Brahan Estates (near Maryburgh) where her father William Campbell was the head gardener. His father Alexander Campbell was a constable based out of Contin Station in Garve. And his father was a crofter and an inn-keeper. The extended family lived and worked around the area in Contin Village, Conon Bridge, Beauly, Muir of Ord, etc. as crofters, carpenters, etc.
My question is about the Inn that my great-great-grandfather Alexander ran with his wife Isabel near Muir-of-Ord. The name of the Inn and croft which has appeared in family records was Croftnabuil (or Croftnabual). On a trip in 2011 with a tip from a lady in a fabric shop, I traveled across the Railway bridge and then up a road which begins sharply to the left just before the Ullapool road. About a mile up that road I did discover a house with a sign “Croc na Boull.” The owner of the house was not in so I was unable to query about the sign. My question is, does anyone have information on the old Inn? It apparently existed up into the late 1800s and perhaps there are photos or other descriptions somewhere.
Kind regards,
Doug
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The estates in mid Ross were Mackenzie territory whose lairds also had land on the west coast, Brahan & Gairloch particularly. Mackenzie of Fairburn was out in the '45 and was forfeit. Stirling I think was married to one of the Gairloch family.
www.fairburn-estate.co.uk/history.html
Urray is pronounced as written, my own folk were Grant's from Fairburn.
Skoosh.
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Skoosh,
I understand that Thomas MacKenzie of Ord was also a principle land owner in that area in the mid-19th century. I wonder if there are estate records that might still exist and perhaps have rent rolls or tenancy tracks. And where one might find such records.
Thanks,
Doug
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Hi Doug
You can get the valution rolls via Scotlands People from 1855 onwards.
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
I think it costs 2 credits a page
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
I was unaware of the Valuation Rolls, despite many years of visiting Registry House. I just did a few searches and found my grandfather and great grandfather tenancy entries for Contin. Thanks very much! More searching ahead ;-)
Kind Regards,
Doug
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Ahh - Contin - keep to the speed limit or you'll get zapped ;D
Have you looked at Scotlands Places. A lot of interesting old docs on there too. Land Tax, Horse Tax, Servant tax, etc.
https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/
Gadget
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Looks to be a treasure trove. Thanks Gadget.
Doug
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My question is about the Inn that my great-great-grandfather Alexander ran with his wife Isabel near Muir-of-Ord. The name of the Inn and croft which has appeared in family records was Croftnabuil (or Croftnabual). On a trip in 2011 with a tip from a lady in a fabric shop, I traveled across the Railway bridge and then up a road which begins sharply to the left just before the Ullapool road. About a mile up that road I did discover a house with a sign “Croc na Boull.” The owner of the house was not in so I was unable to query about the sign. My question is, does anyone have information on the old Inn? It apparently existed up into the late 1800s and perhaps there are photos or other descriptions somewhere.
In the 1881 census (LDS CD-ROM transcription) Alexander Campbell, 56, police officer, born Urray, with wife and family is in the parish of Contin. In the same enumeration district are the kirk, manse and schoolhouse of Contin, Mains of Contin, Coul, and Jamestown. So this is the police house in Contin village, not in Garve.
Cnoc-na-Boull or Croc-na-Buil (spellings can vary) is in the Ardnagrask area, just outside Muir of Ord village in the parish of Urray. In the 1841 census (transcription at https://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl), there is a family in Ardnacrask consisting of Alexander Campbell, 53, publican, Helen Campbell, 44, and several children including Alexander, age 16.
So it does look possible that your Croftnabuil and the present Cnoc-na-Boull might be the same, though it seems odd that a place called Croft-something should change to Cnoc-something. A croft is a small farm, and a cnoc is a small hillock - not quite the same thing.
Unfortunately the 1851, 1861 and 1871 censuses are not available (yet) on FreeCEN. And I have failed to find Croftnabuil, Cnoc-na-Bull, or an inn on the old Ordnance Survey maps.
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Ord Hill, Urray, is Cnoc Croit na Maoile, so hill of the bare/bald croft? west of Ardnagrask, also a Carn na Buaile west of Loch Achilty, cairn of the cattle-fold.
Skoosh.
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CAMPBELL WILLIAM Tenant Occupier
INN AND CROFT CROFTNABOUL ESTATE OF ORD AND ARNAGRASK URRAY
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Ord Hill, Urray, is Cnoc Croit na Maoile, so hill of the bare/bald croft? west of Ardnagrask, also a Carn na Buaile west of Loch Achilty, cairn of the cattle-fold.
Hmmm. That's quite possible.
Càrn na Buaile is about 8 miles from Muir of Ord/Ardnacrask, and none of the maps shows any buildings there, so I doubt that it has anything to do with Cnoc-na-Bull.
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My question is about the Inn that my great-great-grandfather Alexander ran with his wife Isabel near Muir-of-Ord. The name of the Inn and croft which has appeared in family records was Croftnabuil (or Croftnabual). On a trip in 2011 with a tip from a lady in a fabric shop, I traveled across the Railway bridge and then up a road which begins sharply to the left just before the Ullapool road.
We used to travel along those roads often and I'm trying to work out which road it was. Did you pass the Distillery (on sharp bend) or was the turn toward Ardnagrask?
Modern Map link ~
https://tinyurl.com/y776ozfm
Gadget
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Gadget, on your map between the Corry of Ardnagrask & Greenhill Cottage is a croft called Croit Cnoc just south of the Jesmore Burn. At the highest magnification! ;D
Pronounced something like croitch croach (croach as in loch!)
Skoosh.
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Is this the area?
https://goo.gl/maps/fZR3owtrwLr
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Gadget, on your map between the Corry of Ardnagrask & Greenhill Cottage is a croft called Croit Cnoc by the Jesmore Burn. At the highest magnification! ;D
So there is.
But it is at a dead end, not alongside the road that DougD was driven along.
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From what I can work our from the Don's description and the modern maps, he drove down Corry Road. It then divides - a spur going to Croit Cnoc, etc. and the other going to the SE and then bending to SW to Corry Vannie.
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From what I can work our from the Don's description and the modern maps, he drove down Corry Road. It then divides - a spur going to Croit Cnoc, etc. and the other going to the SE and then bending to SW to Corry Vannie.
That's more or less my interpretation, but he thought the house he saw was about a mile down Corry Road, and it's a good two miles to the fork, and he didn't mention having gone down a dead end road. So I think Cnoc-na-Boull must be closer to the village.
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I would ask my relations but they're in the Urray kirk-yaird! ;D
Skoosh.
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If I lived a bittie closer I'd go and take a look!
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Will your bike get you that far?
Place names in order are: Aultvaich side of Ardnagrask, Croftnaboul, Croftnallan and then the village (M of O).
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The 1851 has the family that Forfarian found on 1841 at Croftnabual. Also there in 1861. Address is now the Ardnagrask Inn
See attached for neighbouring households.
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It seems to be 3 maybe 4 east of the Distillery.
Don
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Will your bike get you that far?
It would if I started from Muir of Ord ...
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;D ;D
Don - here's the Google route down Corry Road, starting at the Muir of Ord end - any chance of you doing a little walk down and telling us where it is?
https://goo.gl/maps/Y8HMrWoW8ES2
(I could ask my old friends on the West Coast to check when they next go over to Dingwall, Beauly or Inverness)
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I'm already there...Croftallen still stands, white house 200 yards west of the Old Arms Hotel. Everything else around there seems to be newish.
Don
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So it's to the right of the main road not the left
https://goo.gl/maps/3yZc6cL1W6L2
:-X :-X :-X
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I'm already there...Croftallen still stands, white house 200 yards west of the Old Arms Hotel. Everything else around there seems to be newish.
Do you mean Ord rather than Old?
From what DougD says it must be more than 200 yards from the Ord Arms Hotel.
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Yes - he said left after the railway bridge and he meant right - The Ord Arms is just down that road on the right and Croft Allan is on my last link
:-X :-X :-X
https://goo.gl/maps/3yZc6cL1W6L2
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Correct, the A862 north.
And ditto correct Ord.
Is there a chance this is (at least the old section) the original inn and croft?
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I'm off to do some gardening.
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Correct, the A862 north.
And ditto correct Ord.
Is there a chance this is (at least the old section) the original inn and croft?
I don't think that it would have been called Ardnagrask Inn if it were on the Great North Road. Ardnagrask is evidently south-west of the railway bridge, not north-west.
Unless Alexander and family moved from Croftnabuil to Ardnagrask Inn some time between 1851 and 1861. It's all very confusing!
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The 1851 has household order as Croftnabual, Ardnagrask, Ardnagrask and then
Clew View Hill??
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No - it's View Hill which is here:
https://maps.nls.uk/view/74428424#zoom=5&lat=5714&lon=4985&layers=BT
(where we were looking before)
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OS name book has Cnoc na Luibhe just before View Hill
https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/ross-and-cromarty-os-name-books-1848-1852/ross-and-cromarty-mainland-volume-06/116
(Not sure if it's much help but a start!)
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I have just attempted to 'walk' the 1841 census enumerator's route, and come to the conclusion that the places are not listed in any logical order, because the list dots from one address to another and then back again. He 'returns' 13 times to Ardnacrask and 3 times to Creatnabuale. I've also looked for all of them on the First Edition of the Ordnance Survey six-inch map, and even found some of them. The names from the 1841 census are in black and the names from the map in blue below.
Ardnacrask. Ardnagrask is an area covering several crofts to the south of what is now called Corry or Corrie Road.
Corrie Corry of Ardnagrask is a similar are of several crofts further out along Corry Road. Both are north of the small river or burn.
Bog of Ord, Ord, Square of Ord, Glaie of Ord (which is probably a mistranscription of Glaic of Ord), Ord Square, Ord Lodge, Ord Park. None of these are mapped, but Ord Mains, House, Distillery and Cottage, and Broom of Ord, are all north of Ardnagrask.
Aultbhaich. Aultvaich (anglicised spelling of Aultbhaich) is a similar area south of the burn.
Glaisantorran/Claisantorran/Glasantorran/Glaistorran. Clashdorran is a similar area south and a little east of Aultbhaich.
Rheindown/Reindown. Rheindown is south and east again
Wellhouse. Wellhouse is south-east of Rheindown, quite close to the railway line.
Teandalloch. Teandalloch is east of Aultvaich.
Taighnlluick. Teanalick is east of Clashdorran and north of Rheindown.
Ballvulich/Ballvullich. Balavulich is west of Ord House.
Chuilich. Culach is south and west of Balavulich.
Aultnabreac. Alltnambreac is close to Tomich in the parish of Kilmorack, and was cut off from the rest of Urray when the railway was built. It no longer exists.
I have not found Carnachlarsar, Aultmor, Caiplich, Glaie (probably a mistranscription of Glaic and may be another listing of Glaic of Ord) or
Creatnabuale, which has to be a contender for Croftnabuil. This might be Cnoc na Luibhe, which is at the west end of Corry of Ardnagrask, but it's quite a leap from Cnoc to Creat (croit) and an even bigger leap from buale to luibhe, so I am inclined to doubt it.
There are some other places on the map, for example Foresthill Cottage, Viewhill, Dalvelnah and Dunmore, which are not listed in the 1841 census. There is also a Wellbank which I think must be the place listed in the census as Wellhouse, because the place named Wellhouse on the map is in the parish of Kilmorack, not in Urray.
So wherever the Campbells were in 1841, it must have been west of the railway line and of what is now the A862 Great North Road.
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A lot of walking there, Forfarian!
Are we assuming that Creatnabuale/Croftnabual on the 1841 and 51 is the same as Ardnagask Inn, which is where they are in 1861?
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Some excellent information here – thank you all!
Forfarain, your reports on the 1841 Census (which I did not have) for Alexander (Publican), wife Helen (Isabel was his mother) and children is in fact my great-great-grandfather. I do have copies of pages of the 1861, 1871 and 1881 Census for Contin which show Alexander Campbell, my great-grandfather. And thanks for the correction on the police house being in Contin village as opposed to Garve. And you did some serious walking following the census taker's route!
DonM, from what document does the entry you posted appear? (CAMPBELL WILLIAM Tenant Occupier INN AND CROFT CROFTNABOUL ESTATE OF ORD AND ARNAGRASK URRAY)
Gadget, the road of which I spoke is in fact the turn toward Ardnagrask (Corry Rd). And thank you for your reading of the 1851 Census record you posted as the “Ardnagrask Inn”.
The family stories were that the Inn was on the old Drove Road above Muir of Ord.
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Sorry Doug - I read Don's answers as yours. So did you turn Left after the railway bridge down to Ardnagrask? If so, Don's comments about the Ord Arms Hotel and Croft Allan are not relevant.
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A lot of walking there, Forfarian!
Aye. Sair feet ;(
Are we assuming that Creatnabuale/Croftnabual on the 1841 and 51 is the same as Ardnagask Inn, which is where they are in 1861?
I think that's the nub of the question, really, and I'd like to see some evidence one way or the other.
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Gadget, the road of which I spoke is in fact the turn toward Ardnagrask (Corry Rd). And thank you for your reading of the 1851 Census record you posted as the “Ardnagrask Inn”.
It was the 1861 which stated Ardnagrask Inn. In 1851 they were listed as at Croftnabual
Gadget
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Are we assuming that Creatnabuale/Croftnabual on the 1841 and 51 is the same as Ardnagask Inn, which is where they are in 1861?
I think that's the nub of the question, really, and I'd like to see some evidence one way or the other.
He is down as Innkeeper on the 1851 at Croftnabual as well.
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That is correct Gadget. I turned left and went up the Corry Road. After I found the house sign labeled "Croc Na Boull" I did drive further up the road and recall it coming to a dead end. I've attached a photo of the sign.
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Valuation rolls suggest it is the same place throughout
1855 Inn and croft at Croftnabual, Ord Estate, Proprietor Thomas Mackenzie Esquire, Tenant occupier Alexander Campbell
1865 Inn and croft, Croftmabual, Estate of Ord, Proprietor Thomas Mackenzie Esquire, Tenant Alexander Campbell
1875 Land ann Croflnacual, Tenant occupier William Campbell
1885 Inn and croft, Croftnatoul, Estates of Ord and Ardnagrask, Tenant occupier William Campbell
1895 Inn and croft, Croftnaboul, Estate of Ord and Arnagrask, Tenant occupier William Campbell
1905 House and croft, Croftnaboul, Estates of Ord and Ardnagrask, Proprietor Captain Alexander Watson Mackenzie, Tenant occupier John Cameron
1915 House and croft, Croftnaboul, Estates of Ord and Ardnagrask, Proprietor Major Alexander Watson Mackenzie, Tenant occupier John Cameron
1925 House and croft, Croftnaboul, Estates of Ord and Ardnagrask, Proprietor Lieutenant-Colonel Alexander Watson Mackenzie, Tenant occupier Simon Cameron
1935 House and croft, Croftnaboul, Estates of Ord and Ardnagrask, Tenant Angus Cameron
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So it looks as if Croftnaboul and Ardnagrask Inn are most likely one and the same.
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So it looks as if Croftnaboul and Ardnagrask Inn are most likely one and the same.
Yes, I think so.
But we still don't know exactly where is it/was, or whether it is now Cnoc-na-Bull.
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Snip of valuation listing for 1865. I know they're in order in towns but not sure in about rural areas. It might help.
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Well done girls! pour yourselves a half. I see from the books that there was an inn at Aultgowrie on the drove road west of the Muir & described as being not fit for man or beast! ;D
Muir of Ord was the main tryst for cattle in the north from 1820 hence these inns. The Tarradale probably came with the railway which in turn finished off the droving! Alastair MacLean the authors brother had the Tarradale for a time!
Skoosh.
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Many thanks to all of you for this fine (and fun) educational journey you shared. I now know about valuation rolls at Scotland’s People, old documents from Scotland’s Places, the UK Census transcriptions at FreeCEN, and of course using old Ordinance Survey maps and Name Books (matched up against modern day Google Maps, etc). And let me not forget the matching of OS Names with the Census entries and then using shoe leather to chase them down (thanks again Forfarian!).
A question Gadget, were the snippets of actual Census document images (e.g. the one that showed “Ardnagrask Inn”) from Scotland's People's web site or another resource?
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A few place names here :-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lxq/
Malky
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Looks good, Malky. Had problems on the map link but I think it's pinned on this one. looks like a lane to Upper Ardnagrask:
https://muir-of-ord.cylex-uk.co.uk/company/made-in-scotland-limited-22659386.html
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On a Goggle map, it seems to be a SE offshoot of Corry Road.
https://goo.gl/maps/m8XiqYuDXyT2
and satellite:
https://goo.gl/maps/6SJwadDXsjo
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A question Gadget, were the snippets of actual Census document images (e.g. the one that showed “Ardnagrask Inn”) from Scotland's People's web site or another resource?
Missed this, Doug. It was from SP.
Gadget
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Many thanks to all of you for this fine (and fun) educational journey you shared. I now know about valuation rolls at Scotland’s People, old documents from Scotland’s Places, the UK Census transcriptions at FreeCEN, and of course using old Ordinance
Ordnance not Ordinance! It was originally part of the Army, who needed good maps for all kinds of military reasons. See https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/
And let me not forget the matching of OS Names with the Census entries and then using shoe leather to chase them down (thanks again Forfarian!).
It was virtual shoe leather - nothing but a few electrons were incommoded during the chase.
were the snippets of actual Census document images (e.g. the one that showed “Ardnagrask Inn”) from Scotland's People's web site or another resource?
Scotland's People is the only source of original census images, apart from a few downloaded from there and posted on other web sites. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
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Using virtual shoe leather ;-), I followed that road to Upper Ardnask back down to Corry Road and a bit toward Muir of Ord. And found the white cottage where I took the photo of the sign post with “Croc Na Buill”: https://www.google.com/maps/@57.5119447,-4.4744349,3a,75y,229.88h,88.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saj9B-8s5ri6xcPkRYE8abg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en-US
You can't quite read it, but it matches the photo I posted yesterday.
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Well, I am pretty sure that that house is not a 19th century inn. It could be a modern house on the same site.
However comparing the site with the old map at http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=57.5118&lon=-4.4754&layers=5&b=1 and using the slider to toggle from the old map to the satellite view and back, there was no house on that site when the map was surveyed.
It's on the south side of the road opposite the strip of woodland that is wider at the roadside and gets narrower towards the north. On the satellite map you can just see the power lines that are supported by the pylon in the driveway of the house.
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No, clearly not a 19th century Inn. I'm guessing that the owner may have adopted the name for their house, using the name for the Inn which was perhaps located nearby.
From Malky’s "Address View" link, when I expanded to the larger Google map, it pins the location at the end of the lane to Upper Ardnagrask which comes off Corry Rd. Perhaps the Inn was up in that area…….
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I wonder if it would be worth contacting the Highland Archives to ask if they have some information that would confirm that Croftnaboul and Cnoc-na-Boull are one and the same?
The ideal piece of information would be an estate plan, but I've had a look in the NRS and SCAN catalogues and I can't see where the Mackenzie of Ord estate papers are.
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Go away foe 24 hours and come back to this. Wow!!!
Glad it has been found, although a tad flustered as to how the census reads; definitely an odd one.
Don
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Ardnagrask was part of the forfeited estates of Lord Lovat of the '45. The government factor was Captain John Forbes of Newe who settled retired soldiers on the lands. The government factors generally gave leases to tenants, abolished servitudes & spent the rents on improvements, building roads, bridges, inns etc' The Frasers got some of their estates back after military service in the 1770's. Might be worth checking the Forfeited Estates Papers for tenancies, Campbell doesn't sound very local & was Ardnagrask later purchased by the Mackenzies.
Skoosh.
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a tad flustered as to how the census reads; definitely an odd one.
Yes, very confusing in a view from 177 years on. But Ardnagrask was in the middle of his enumeration district. I imagine it as one of these stylised images of the Sun with a circle and tentacles reaching out all round. Ardnagrask is the central circle, and all the other places are along tentacles reaching outwards, so his route went out along a tentacle, then back to the middle, then out along another tentacle and back, and so on until he was back where he started, with the occasional aberration when a schedule got out of order in the pile he was transcribing into the enumeration book. If you see what I mean?
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Having done this myself, there is no proscribed route to follow just the ED list, the enumerator has to chase up absent crofters so it's snakes & ladders, go for his dinner & look in on relatives. As long as he gets the job done, I don't fancy it was any different then, although I worked from the car boot!
Skoosh.
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Just returned from a visit to Scotland. Searching through some family genealogy notes compiled by my cousin, Dr. Allan Campbell, I discovered that Allan had also travelled up the Corry Road above the Muir of Ord Railway Station in search of Croftnabual. He too found a white bungalow with the sign “Croc Na Boull” and beside that a much larger house. At the larger house he encountered Giles Foster, the long-time factor of the Lovat Estate. Mr. Foster told Allan that the ruins of the old Inn were in his garden! Both Allan and Giles are now deceased so I can’t ask them any questions. So, the location is confirmed. Now if there are any old photographs of the Inn from the 19th century to be found……