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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Zebbie on Sunday 29 January 06 15:29 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone date this photo which was taken from a negative glass image.
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Hi Zebbie,
I could be well out here but I would suggest between the period of 1840 to 1860. Perhaps someone could narrow it down for you abit more.
old rowley
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Hi Zebbie,
Can you describe the glass please? Is it negative until you put a black card behind it?
If it's what I think it is - a wet collodion positive on glass (sometimes called an Ambrotype although that is a term specific to one patented kind of wet collodion positive) - then it would date from the 1850s to the very early 1860s. The women's clothes bear this out. It's a lovely picture, is it your family?
Cheers
Prue
P.S. Just to add that if it's collodion, the emulsion side (the non-shiny side) will be extremely vulnerable to damage from abrasion etc. so you might want to talk to a conservator, perhaps at your local records office, about how best to store it. That's if you haven't already done so! :)
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Can we also know the size of the plate in inches please? And are there any notches in one corner?
Denn
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Hi Denn,
The glass plate is 3 1/4" x 2 3/4". The top left and bottom right corners have small irregular clear glass pieces with remnants of paper/cardboard on them, as though originally stuck to something which destroyed that part of the image. Nothing else.
Zebbie
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Hi all,
I've had a closer look at the clothing etc. and I would now date this to the latter half of the 1850s, maybe even narrowing that down to the 3rd quarter of the 1850s. This is based on the shape of the sleeves, and the hair-dos.
Zebbie - the irregular clear corners on the plate would be where the photographer held onto the plate as he applied the coating (emulsion) in preparation for taking the picture. He had to prepare the plate immediately before taking the picture because the collodion emulsion had to remain wet the whole time. It's probably that the paper that's stuck there is either related to the paper tape seal that would once have been all around the edges of the plate.
Did you check to see what the plate looks like, as I suggested above? It would help with dating.
Cheers
Prue
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Hi Prue,
Sorry I missed your posting.
Yes, the photo is of my family. I had thought it was of my Gt. Gt. Grandmother Ann BEALE who was born in 1829, together with her only child Emily who was born in 1848.
The photo does not change when a black (or white) card is put behind it and I note your remarks on conservation (good point) and have not looked into this.
Zebbie
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Prue
I'm not sure but is this a dry plate?, also I'm not sure but I imagine the 1/4plate size was a later development, which would have made it a little later!
Your expert opinion is needed.
Denn
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Hi Denn and Zebbie,
OK, if the picture doesn't change when a black card is put behind it then I think it must be a dry plate as Denn suggested...that is unless the plate is painted black on the back (instead of having a card) but then you would have said you have a positive not a negative.
However, that presents a problem...gelatin dry plates were only introduced in the 1870s, and these ladies are certainly much earlier than that.
Zebbie - I hate to be a pain, but do you reckon you could take a photo of the whole plate? A pic of it full on, and one taken at an angle to catch the light, would be just great and would really help me to work out what it is. They don't have to be big photos, just small enough to be posted on here.
Prue
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P.S. Denn, it could be a collodion dry plate which was around at the time, but I would have thought that would have the same appearance as a collodion wet plate, i.e. milky dmax areas and appearing positive with a dark background. This is intriguing!
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Prue, What a fascinating thread.
Zebbie, what a very beautiful photograph this is! I've just seen this thread and my immediate reaction before reading on was ca 1860 and that the young girl/woman was between 12 and 16 yo (probably 14/15) judging from my own granddaughter of a similar age. Though I'm an absolute amateur in this field (despite, in my distant past, having taken photos with a Thornton Pickard camera!).
I'm really looking forward to more posts which will add to my education (already increased by posts to date).
JAP
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Just a thought! we have concentrated on the plate but was the print done recently or did you aquire the print along with the plate?
Denn
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Hi JAP,
A little bit off topic but it's good to see someone with a Thornton Pickard - do you still have it?
I am the proud owner of aquarter plate T.P.
It doesn't get a lot of use thesedays but is still in working order, it has an f3 aldis lens that is a little soft with age.
The hard part is getting plates for these things.
Denn
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Reply to all.
Thanks for all comments and help on this topic - it is appreciated.
The back of the plate is black.
Prue, I have tried taking some photos, but they are not very good.
The print was done quite a few years back by a friend who ran a photography business. The usual commercial outlets would'nt touch it and said it couldn't be done. The friend said that was because it was too much trouble for them.
Thanks for estimating the age of the girl in the photo - I am no good at guessing ages at all.
Zebbie
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Hi all,
I've solved the conundrum I think ;D
The plate already has a black backing, so that's why nothing happened when Zebbie put a bit of black backing behind it. The plate is definitely a negative, and the pattern of the emulsion coating (with the fingerprints at the corners), the thickness of the plate, the rainbow-coloured interference patterns and the women's clothing all points to what we thought initially - date of 1850s, mid to late decade.
Zebbie, you're a lucky duck to have this, so many of them have been broken and scratched to buggery. If the surface that isn't painted is very shiny, that will be the glass side and not the emulsion side. However, it was pretty unusual to paint the emulsion side, so I imagine that the side that isn't painted is the collodion emulsion side. It scratches easily as previously mentioned. Also, the old glass can cause image deterioration (that's what is causing the interference patterns) as salts make their way to the surface and push the emulsion off. The best way to keep the plate is (a) in the dark, (b) in the cool (not refrigerated, just not hot), (c) flat, emulsion side up, and (d) in a paper wallet. Your local records office conservation section should be able to advise you on all that.
Sorry we hijacked your thread - you really only wanted a date but I was getting confused!! ;D
Cheers
Prue
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P.S. Denn: nice camera! The best I can do is a 1913 Kodak vest pocket film camera. Without a lens. ;D
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Great stuff Prue,
One final question, it may sound silly but why paint the back of the plate? - all I can think of is for protection from light But that would have meant having to clean the back if the negative was wanted again! I did think about reflective printing but in my experience it was hopeless.
Denn
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Hi Denn,
When these plates were produced, there was no way of printing a positive onto paper because no-one had worked out a suitable emulsion for printing onto paper yet. So the plate, although it looks negative, was only ever intended to be viewed as a positive. And the only way it can be viewed as a positive is to put a dark background on it. Painting the back was pretty common - they sometimes used bitumen to do this, and sometimes...I can't remember (and I can't find my notes! ;D ) Sometimes though they would use black card, paper or fabric to do the job. You can sometimes find these pictures on dark glass (like ruby glass) and in that case no black paint or backing is needed at all.
This technique of collodion emulsion on glass was popular in America and the well-known Ambrotype process is a variant of it.
Cheers
Prue
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Hi JAP,
A little bit off topic but it's good to see someone with a Thornton Pickard - do you still have it?
... Denn
Hi Denn,
The TP belonged to my ex-husband. I'll email him and ask him whether he still has it (he lives in another state). It was quite elegant with a lovely wooden tripod as I recall. And a cloth to place over the photographer and camera ...
I have a lovely photocopy of a photo of his Warwickshire Gggparents (my children's Ggggparents) - probably taken in the 1860s (they died 1867/1868); I wonder what the negative was!
I also recall photos my father took - and developed out in the sunshine!
Those were the days, eh!
JAP
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Hi JAP,
The neg would have been one of these collodion plates, but by the 1860s some bright spark had worked out a way to get the silver salts to form a colloid in albumen, so we get our wonderful cartes de visite and the other albumen prints which lasted right up to nearly 1900.
:)
Prue
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Hi Prue & All,
Don't think my last posting got through, so posting again.
Prue, blow the highjacking of my posting, I have only been using Rootschat for a short time and it has been a fantastic learning curve for me and I am very appreciative of your time and efforts.
Plate has now been put in an acid-free archival wallet, surrounded by bubblewrap, surrounded by corrugated cardboard (belt & braces job). It is normally stored in the top of a dark wardrobe in an unheated bedroom, but I will check which way up it is.
Previously I had thought the clothes shown in the photo beautiful, but the lady herself a bit of a plain Jane and the girl rather sulky-looking, but was pleased to have it. I now see the plate in an entirely different light after your comments and realise I have a bit of a gem.
Thanks to all.
Zebbie
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Previously I had thought ... the girl rather sulky-looking ...
Zebbie
Hi Zebbie,
Assuming she was a teenager - what's new!!
Especially remembering back to one's own teenage years ...
JAP
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Hi JAP,
I also guess they had to stay still for a long while for the photo to be taken.
Thanks for estimating the girl's age - I am hopeless at this.
You've all been such a great help.
Zebbie
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wrong posting
Denn
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Hi Zebbie,
It's been a pleasure :D :D :D
Cheers
Prue