RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: deb usa on Thursday 02 February 06 22:14 GMT (UK)
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have been researching my PENFOLD roots. most of them lived in the St Austell area as travelling pedlars.
i have managed to trace back as far as 1866:
THOMAS PENFOLD (50YRS IN 1891) M. SOPHIA/SOFFIA ORCHARD(45)they married in june 1866 in South Molton.
they had many many children , one of them being my GR.grdad William penfold(b,1873ish)
according to 1891 census , they were living in St Austell at that time.
i would appraciate any leads.
thanks deb
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Hi Deb, I think this may be your Thomas in the 1861 census
Listed in Persons not in houses
Robert Penfold 45 born Wiltshire ?busk & mat hawker
Amelia 43 " " "
Robert M 23 born Southhampton "
Thomas 12 born Exeter "
James 11 born Bridgewater
Ollof 8 born Withridge
Henry 6 born Yeovil
Elizabeth 2 born Dorchester
Pricilla 6 monthes "
Maria Thompson 29 born Brockners, Hampshire sister and hawker
Henry 6 born Prath nephew
living Uplyme, Exeter, Devon
RG9/1370
104
22
what do you think?
all the best
Kate.
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I don't think this is the same family as I have found them on the 71 census and Thomas is still living with them.
I can't find them on the 91 census either what is the reference page for them?
Regards
Kate.
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hi kate
the ref page is RG12/1822 folio 114 pg 14.......
maybe they all still lived together seeing as the were travellers.
i hope these are the ones... it would be fantastic
thanks again deb
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Hi Deb
Do you have a copy of the 1866 marriage certificate? If so, what does it say about Thomas' father and who were the marriage witnesses? Where was your Thomas born according to all the census that you have found for him?
Casalguidi :)
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hi Casalguidi
i am in the usa and do not have any certs... i only found out about thomas yesterday.
the research was done by someone else..... as you can see i am new to all this searching and feel a little lost. all the info i received is on a message board in the CORNWALL message area ..under the same heading. maybe if you read my responses there you might find something you need.
i really appreciate your help:)
deb
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What were Thomas' and Sophia's children called? I still can't find them on the 91 census.
Kate.
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hi
this is the info i have:
enumerated.... penfull
lived in tents in st austell
THOMAS 50 HAWKER
SOFFIA 45 ...COULD ALSO BE SOPHIA ...SURNAME ORCHARD (?)
married june 1866 south molton devon
CHILDREN: WILLIAM 20 my gr grdad
DEFIANCE 19
JOHN 17
CHRISTONA 16
CHRISTOPHER 14
EDWARD 12
SOFFIA 10
NELSON 8
ELIZABETH 6
HARRIET 4
MISSIA 1
SELINA 3MNTHS
i have spoken with my mum...she says william was ostracised after he married a house dweller. when he married bessie (palmer).... they had at least 17 kids ...s few of their names were; nelson, eddie . sophia, john. christopher. christobel, veeny, etc..... almost as if he were naming them after his siblings....
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Hi Deb, the family I found in the 61 census I have found in the 71, I do not think it is your Thomas as it states that he is unmarried. There is another Penfold family living next to them, I don't know if it will help but here are the details
Robert Penfold 55 born Bremmer, Wilts a brush maker and licensed hawker
Amelia 53 born not known
Thomas 22 born Devon a brush maker and licensed hawker
Harry 15 born Ilchester, Somerset " " "
Robert 20 born Shapwick, Devon " " "
Hollif 18 born Woolbridge, Dorset a licensed hawker
Elizabeth 13 born Dorchester, Dorset " "
Pricilla 11 born Leigh, Dorset
William Penfold 38 born Hampshire a brush maker and licensed hawker
Pricilla 39 born not known a licensed hawker
Pricilla 16 born Portsmouth, Hants " "
Charlotte 15 " " "
Amos 8 born Hampshire
Henry 6 "
Hollif 5 born Portsmouth, Hants
Patience 3 "
Rachel 1 "
Patience Tomson 22 born Sussex a licensed hawker and sister-in-law.
living Near Seaway Lane, Abbotsbury, Dorset.
Regards
Kate.
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I've found them on the 91 census, it says that Thomas was born in Edinburgh.
Kate.
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where do we go from here.... where do you find all this research , guys.... i just seem to be going from place to place and scrolling thru 1000's of names...... i would like to join on the search
thanks for all the help
can't tell you how it makes me feel,,,, maybe you do know?
deb :)
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Hi Deb, I've found all the info on www.Ancestry.co.uk, although the reason we may be having to scroll through so many is that they may have been mistranscribed, which happens a lot on Ancestry.
I have been researching my Israel family for two years now and it was only a two weeks ago that I found them on two census' which gave been more names to work with. They had been stated as Jsriel (I would never have thought to put that in my search), so they may be out there its just a case of different options!
The thing with traveller families though is that they moved around so much that they may have been missed.
Ancestry is quite expensive, I don't know about any other sites that are cheaper and its not as if you can just pop to Blighty to see parish records and so forth.
I will keep searching for you and let you know what I find.
Don't give up!
Regards
Kate.
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Thomas Penfold definately married Sophia Orchard in South Molton in 1866.
Thomas Penfold
married
Sophia Orchard
Apr-May-Jun quarter
1866
Disrtict: South Molton
Volume: 5b
Page: 833
it might be worth getting the marriage cert as they normally state the fathers name's and occupations of both applicants and also the witness' present.
You can get these certs from the General Register Office. You can order them online (which is cheaper) at www.gro.gov.uk. They don't say how much it costs for oversea's, but in Britain they cost £7 each which is about $12-$13. It might cost you that but may take longer to arrive.
At least if you have the marriage cert you have a basis to work with!
Let me know what you think.
All the best
Kate.
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I don't know if this is going to help or make you more confused. Found the family I found in the 61 and 71 census' living Hod Hill Lane, Shilling Okeford, Dorset in the 1881
Robert Penfold 65 born Bremer, Wiltshire a brushmaker
Amelia 66 born Canterbury, Kent "
Elizabeth 21 born Burton, Dorset "
Pricilla 18 born Ibberton, Dorset "
also living Hod Hill Lane
Henry Penfold 23 born Yeovil, Somerset a brushmaker
Charlotte 22 born Portsmouth, Hampshire "
Henry 6 born Gosport, Hampshire
William 5 born Weymouth, Dorset
Charlotte 3 born Bridport, Dorset
Amelia 4 monthes born Southampton, Hampshire
and
James Penfold 27 born Bridgewater, Somerset a brushmaker
Pricilla 24 born Portsmouth, Hampshire a brushmaker
Pricilla 6 born Chard, Somerset
John 5 born Cerne, Dorset
Patience 3 born Weymouth, Dorset
and
Thomas Penfold 35 born Weymouth, Dorset a brushmaker
Patience 29 born Shoreham, Sussex "
Patience 9 born Weymouth, Dorset "
Robert 5 born Moredon, Dorset
Elizabeth 6 monthes born Farnham, Surrey
RG11/2086
160
23
I guess its better to have these details in case you match them up later in your search for your Thomas.
Kate.
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1891 census
James Penfold (no age or place of birth given) a licensed hawker
Pricilla "
Pricilla 16
Johnny 12
Patience 11
Olis 7
A;fred 5
Rose 3
Fairfut 9 monthes
William 13 nephew
and
Pricilla 19 (no place of birth given) a hawker
Thos 6 brother
Betsy 8 sister
Pake 9 "
Richard 10 brother
Arissa 4 sister
living Lady, St Mary's, Dorset
and
Henry Penfold 40 born Bridgewater, Somerset a licensed hawker
Orean 39 born Ilminster, Somerset
Bessie 19 born Packington, Devon a hawkers assistant
Henry 15 born Exeter, Devon " "
Defiance 13 born Dawlish, Devon
John 10 born Brauton, Devon
Vastie 6 born Ilfracombe, Devon
Noah 8 born Packington, Devon
Albert 3 born Ilfracombe, Devon
Leonard 1 "
living Common Moor Lane (Caravans), South Molton, Devon coincidence? I wonder).
and
Robert Penfold 57 born Berkshire a hawker and widower
Harriett 24 born Kilkhampton, Devon "
Bessie 22 born Truro, Cornwall "
Rachel 15 born Redruth, Cornwall "
Charlotte 12 born Helston, Cornwall
listed under persons not in houses but in vans, living Northam, Devon.
For Robert it says on the transcription that he was born in Bute, Scotland but on the page it sayd Berkshire.
On the 1891 for your Thomas it says Hampton, Mid Lothian, (Edinburgh), Scotland but on the census page all it says id Hampton. Do you think maybe its Hampshire?
All of the Penfolds I have listed here have got to be related to your Penfolds as they keep moving further down the west country and some of the names are the same.
I can't find your family in any of the other census', so I'm going to concentrate on the Orchards for the time being, maybe that will give us some clues.
Kate.
ps. also found your William in the 1901 census, presumably you have that entry, if not let me know and I will post it here.
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I know the ages do not tally but I guess its too much of a coincidence, plus I only take census info at face value, but I've found this Sophia Orchard living with her family in Old Boy Road, Dulverton, Somerset in a tent! in the 1861 census
James Orchard 37 born Salisbury, Wiltshire a brush and ? maker
Sarah 27 born Sturminster, Dorset
Susan 9 born Tiverton, Devon
Henry 6 born Huntsham, Devon
Sophia 4 born Winkleigh, Devon.
RG9/1606
68
13
also found this entry
Sophia Orchard 44 born Weston Under ?, Gloucestershire a licensed hawker (married) but living on her own at 11 The Island, Midsomer Norton, Somerset.
Kate.
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Hi Deb !
You said you'd like to look them up yourself - maybe you can trawl through these!!
1881 Census: Gypsies, Hawkers, and Other Travellers
http://www.nwon.com/pauline/CensusPage6.html
1881 Census: More Gypsies, Hawkers, Travellers and Entertainers
http://www.nwon.com/pauline/CensusPage7.html
1881 Census:Even More Gypsies, Hawkers, Travellers and Entertainers
1891 Census:Showmen and Other Travellers
http://www.nwon.com/pauline/1891.html
1901 Census: Showmen and Other Travellers
http://www.nwon.com/pauline/1901.html
Annie :)
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Hi Deb,
After the CARNARTON saga, I thought I'd have a look at the PENFOLD one ...
Did you ever get the 1866 marriage certificate of Thomas PENFOLD and Sophia ORCHARD? It would be great because it should give the names of their fathers and that might help to trace them further.
I tried to find Thomas and Sarah Sophia/Soffia and family before 1891 (where they were very cleverly found under PENFULL) but with no success.
Incidentally, on that 1891 image, the only birthplace given in the family is Hampton for Thomas (no birthplace or occupation for any of the other members of the family). Someone has subsequently annotated this (in a different hand) Mdx i.e. Middlesex {not Midlothian (Edinburgh) Scotland which a transcriber on a certain site has entered!}. Whether Middlesex is correct or is just someone's guess I don't know. There definitely was a parish called Hampton in Middlesex (in the Kingston registration district) but there are also places called Hampton elsewhere.
I had a look on FreeBMD for possible marriages of William's siblings and came across this rather interesting entry.
Christiana PENFOLD, Marriage, Mar qtr 1898, St Austell
And on the same page is a William ORCHARD.
This looked as though it might be William PENFOLD's sister recorded on the 1891 census as Christonanna, 16.
So I checked out the 1901 census and found the following.
1901, Bratton Clovelly, Devon
Northcombe Moors (Caravan)
ORCHARD William, Head, Mar, 31, Licensed Hawker, b Devon Pinhoe
Do Christina, Wife, Mar, 26, b Cornwall Grampound (this is the right age for William PENFOLD's sister)
Do Edmund, Son, 1, b Cornwall Calstock
Do Joseph, Son, 4 months, b Devon Mary Tavy
Do Sarah, Mother, Widow, 64, b Hampshire Sherly
SPARGO Edmund, Mar, Brother-in-law, 30, Licensed Hawker, b Cornwall Stoke Climsland
Do Harriet, Sister, Mar, 34, b Devon Hemyock
Then I looked for William ORCHARD in earlier censuses - hoping it might just lead me back to Sophia ORCHARD (the one who married Thomas PENFOLD in 1866); of course it didn't.
But here are some census details anyway for William ORCHARD's family; it's interesting to see how they move around.
1891, St Cleer, Cornwall.
Fore Down
ORCHARD John, Head, Mar, 55, Licensed Hawker (Gipsy has been added in another hand), b Bristol
Do Sarah, Wife, Mar, 54, b Southampton
Do Harriet, Daur, Single, 30, b Devon Exeter
Do Thomas, Son, S, 26, b Bristol
Do William, Son, S, 22, b Devon Exeter
Do Rachel, Daur, S, 18, b Somerset Widdecombe
Do Sally, Daur, S, 13, b Somerset Williton
1881, Chapel Allerton, Somerset
Killing Lane
ORCHARD John, Head, Mar, 45, Traviling (sic) Hawker, b Somerset Chaffcombe
Do Sarah, Wife, Mar, 44, b Hampshire Southampton
Do Henry, Son, Unmar, 22, Trav Hawker, b Somerset Chaffcombe
Do Harriett, Daur, Unmar, 20, b Devon Culmstock
Do Joseph, Son, Unmar, 18, Trav Hawker, b Devon Culmstock
Do Thomas, Son, Unmar, 16, Trav Hawker, b Somerset Stagursey
Do William, Son, 12, b Somerset Pinhoe
Do Annie Sophia, Niece, 18, b Devon Culmstock
Do John, Nephew, 16, Trav Hawker, b Somerset Pitminster
HOLLAND Rachael, Niece, 7, b Somerset Carhampton
Do Sarah, Niece, 4, b Somerset Bichnoller
PENFUL Percilla, Niece, Unmar, 20, b Dorset Dorcester (PENFUL! - that's interesting)
1871, Crowcombe, Somerset
Crowcombe Red Post
ORCHARD John, Head, Mar, 35, Hawker with Van, b Dorset Kingston
Do Sarah Jane, Wife, Mar, 34, b Dorset Kingston
Do Henry, Son, 14, b Somerset Chard
Do Harriett, Daur, 10, b Devon H??? (Hanwel, Hamuel?)
Do Joseph, Son, 8, Somerset Wellington
Do Thomas, Son, 6, Somerset Crowcombe
Do William, Son, 2, Devon H???
Unfortunately I didn't find John, Sarah or Henry in 1861; nor John in 1851 ...
JAP
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PS
I looked on FreeBMD for 'Persilla PENFUL', 20yo niece b Dorset Dorcester(sic), living with the ORCHARDs in 1881.
Pricilla PENFOLD, birth, Dec qtr 1860, Dorchester (Dorset), Vol 5a, page 313
Looking good.
But then I got into more confusion. How does she fit in with all the census entries which Kate (buttonmoon) found ...
Looking good for Pricilla PENFOLD, 6 months, b Dorchester,a daughter living with Robert and Amelia PENFOLD in Uplyme Devon in the 1861 (in the list of persons not in houses).
And in 1871 with Robert and Amelia as daughter Pricilla PENFOLD age 11 (though she is listed as b Leigh Dorset - but her 13yo sister is listed as b Dorchester).
But 1881 throws a spanner in the works. Robert and Amelia still have a daughter Priscilla with them - age 18 born Ibberton Dorset.
At this stage I despair ...
JAP
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hi JAP
it is so hard to switch gears after all the fun we have had with the CARNARTON family.!!!!
since searching on the message boards for the PENFOLDS/PINFOLDS./...have have actually come into contact with cousins who have been searching the same line. This is the info that i have received from them:
JOHN PINFOLD b abt 1809 married HARRIET JAMES on 2aug 1831 in Pimperne , Dorset.(harriet b 1814 in warminster, wiltshire)
their children :
1. robert b.1832 (up Nately HAM) married Fiance smith
sarah harriet (vice versa) b.1833
2. john b.1834 married charlotte
3. william b. 1836 married diane sophia hewson
4.THOMAS - my thomas- married sophia orchard
5. charlotte b; 1838 married henry guess in 1858
6. elizabeth (betsy) b.1845/6 (dorset) married edwin orchard b. 1844 in ledbury hereford...... married on15 april 1871 (note another marriage between the penfolds and orchards)
7. alfred b.1849 married louisa small b.1851 married 15 april 1871
8. henry b.1851/2 bridgewater , somerst married ocean hughes b.1851 honiton devon9 they had lots of kids ie; betsy, henry,defiance,orfirus,john,noah,vashti, albert,leonard -who married another sophia orchard!!!!-,sophie,william,caroline,)
9. edward b.1853 married rachel holland
i found the marriage of john pinfold to harriet james -1831 pimperne dorset on IGI..batch # M159791
as i said earlier this is info from my "cousins"
everyone is now stuck on where john pinfold/penfold was born and who are the parents of both him and harriet.
also other snippets of info
on 1871 census there is a harriet penfold (b;1814) living with her grandson william ... -my william b 1873 who married bessy palmer (who's mother was amelia slack/smith/ knortton/carnarton lol)? harriet is living in Lamerton as a hawker in a caravan on Callacombe Downs...also with her is granddaughter , charlottefrom paignton. harriet died in Redruth cornwall in 1878, age 63
also sophia orchard (wife of thomas penold/penfull ) is buried in st Enoder ...tombstone has all the names of her kids on it
they are all difficult to trace because of them being travellers...
why are my family so complicated ..... lol
thanks everyone for your help
regards deb
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PS; i think a lot of the previous info that kate has found refers to the siblings and their families of my Thomas. i can match up a lot of the birth dates etc...
i am still going thru the info, also love all other stuff on the orchard family .
thanks again everyone
have a good day :)
Deb
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hi eceryone again...:)
i have just bee scrolling thru the census info that annie supplied recently..ie: 1891 census: showmen and other travellers .
unfortunatel could not find anything perstining to my penfolds but did come across
henry gess head 57 showman 2 caravans
charlotte gess (who was a penfold) wife 55 show woman wiltshire
mary gess 16 helston cornwall
rebecca gess 14 plymouth devon
alfred gess 9 helston
this is all under the title of caravans 383-385 Battersea Park rd Battersea London
in my earlier correspondence i had char;lotte penfold marry a henry GUESS...not gess
i know that this is not really relevant but does show how much all these families moved...also i wanted to just show my excitement at finding anything:) :) :)
thanks
later
deb
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Hello again Deb,
Actually, I'm surprised at just how much can be found from the census about Travellers. I've not looked at Travellers before this and I guess I had a sort of vague idea that the enumerators would not chase them up - but this wasn't the case at all (fortunately for you). There were certainly lots of interesting families around. And it's fascinating how the same names (surnames and forenames) keep turning up.
Your cousins have put together lots of information!
Incidentally, did you see the christening of Selina, your William's little sister, on the IGI.
PINFOLD Selina, bap 22 Feb 1891, Par Cornwall, father Tom Pinfold, mother Sophia Pinfold.
As you say, the IGI has:
John PINFOLD m Harriet JAMES, 2 Aug 1831, Pimperne Dorset
The IGI also has a John and a Harriet having:
Sarah Harriet PENNIFOLD, bap 3 Nov 1833, Saint Nicholas, Brighton, Sussex
I looked at that 1871 census entry which you mentioned (details follow) hoping that tracing some of the people in it might somehow lead to finding Harriet & John, and perhaps Thomas & Sophia in an earlier census. A vain hope!
1871
Lamerton, Devon
'Caravan' on Collacombe Downs
PENFOLD Harriet, Widow, 58, Licensed Hawker, b Wiltshire Warminster
Do Elizabeth, Daur, Unm, 24, Lic Hawker, b Dorset Stourminster
Do Alfred, Son, Unm, 22, Lic Hawker, b Somerset Marston
Do Henry, Son, Unm, 20, Lic Hawker, b Somerset Bridgewater
Do Edward, Son, Unm, 18, Lic Hawker, b Cornwall Dubwalls
Do William, Grandson, 8, b Devon Plymouth
GUESS Charlotte, Granddaughter, 11, b Devon Paignton
HUGHES Ocean, Visitor, Unm, 20, Lic Hawker, b Devon Honiton
JAMES Joseph, Nephew, 18, Lic Hawker, b Somerset Taunton
However, I came across some other family members as I trawled through so will mention them for completeness.
Listed in Barnstaple, camped next to each other, are Henry & Ocean - recorded as Penforld (transcribed on a certain site as Prurfold); and Alfred & Louisa recorded as Penfold (transcribed as Prufold)
1881
Barnstaple, Devon
Temporarily here living in Caravans
PENFORLD Henry, Head, Mar, 29, Licensed Hawker (Brushes), b Somerset Bridgewater
Do Ocean, Wife, Mar, 29, b Devon Honiton
Do Betsy, Daur, 9, b Devon Paignton
Do Henry, Son, 5, b Devon Exeter
Do Trefiance(?), Daur, 3, b Devon Paignton
Do John, Son, 8 months, b Devon Braunton
PENFOLD Alfred, Head, Mar, 31, Licensed Hawker (Brushes), b Dorset Weymouth
Do Louisa, Wife, Mar, 29, b Devon Plymouth
Do Louisa, Daur, 8, b Devon Torquay
Do Phoebe, Daur, 3, b Devon Newton Abbott
Do Moses, Son, 10 months, b Devon Newton Abbott
1891
Henry PENFOLD & Ocean (actually as Penfold!) are in a Caravan in Common Moor Lane, South Molton Devon with Bessie, Henry, Defiance, John, Vastie, Noah, Albert and Leonard.
1881
Henry GESS & Charlotte were in a caravan in East Stonehouse, Devon, with lots of children - but now Charlotte's birthplace is given as Dorset Weymouth. And one daughter, Elizabeth 18, was born in Guernsey ...
1871
Henry GESS & Charlotte and family were in St Andrew Devon - Charlotte's birthplace as Dorset Weymouth
1861
Henry GESS & Charlotte and family are in tents in Camborne Cornwall - Charlotte's birthplace given as Dorset Blandford.
1851
Henry GESS, b Britchingley Sussex, is in Wandsworth with parents Henry & Rebecca and siblings.
There are quite a lot of LDS patron submissions on the IGI for Henry GESS & Charlotte PENFOLD and their family.
But where, oh where, are Thomas & Sophia in anything other than 1891, and where is Thomas's mother Harriet in 1861 and 1851 ...
Regards,
JAP
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Here's another site which you might like to look at:
http://website.lineone.net/~rtfhs/links.html
From it there's a link to one which has lots of records:
http://romany.rootschat.net/
On it, in the census section, I came across quite a lot of travellers at Hampton Wick, Middlesex in 1861 - at a 'Pleasure Fair held on Thames Bank or Barge Walk, annually'. A number of PENFOLDs there (and elsewhere) but none that rang any bells.
The baptisms includes quite a few of interest including (you mentioned this record) Robert PENFOLD, bap 22 Jun 1832, parents John & Harriet, Up Nately, Hampshire.
JAP
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See how easy it is - to go off on a tangent Jap ??!! ::) ::) ::)
I've always been interested in the "Romanies " and was thrilled to find Cooper was a prominent name ... only to find we didn't seem to be included ...... !! :-[
But what a fascinating subject !! ;) ;) ;) ;)
Annie
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LA,
A tangent? I wouldn't call what I've been doing a tangent :D Virtually all of it has connexions to Deb's direct line and wider family.
Though unfortunately finding Harriet (or John & Harriet) on a census pre-1871, or Thomas & Sophia pre-1891 is not yielding to any of my efforts - I am hoping that someone else will have more success. However, that's why I've been trawling the wider families - hoping that Deb's direct line ancestors might be camping nearby, or that there might be some clue in the records of the wider family (even an unexpected spelling/transcription variation which might just open the door). But no luck to date.
JAP.
PS: Yes, it is a fascinating subject and one on which I found I was lamentably ignorant. I've just pulled George Borrow's 'Lavengro' out of the bookshelf - I remember reading it as a very young person (more years ago than I could possibly admit) and being surprised that I didn't enjoy it much; perhaps it may be different when I re-read it through the prism of what I have learned over the past couple of days courtesy of Deb's people.
PPS: Now to a real tangent - belongs on the Lighter Side but I'll include it here as a PPS. In my search for people with forename Defiance (Def*), I came across the following excellent name:
Definitely Derided WALLERS, a 3yo son.
What a name!
Try working that one out - if you give up, look for the poor little soul in the 1871 England census.
A clue - it's not a censuswhack.
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hi JAP and Annie
I am , again, having fun with my gypsy PENFOLDS .:)
I am really excited with all the recent info and am in complete awe at your searching skills.... how Do you find all these variants of the penfold name????preful, etc...please let me know so that i can help with the search.
another thing that i have come across and maybe not part of my family (but maybe worth mentioning).... is a STANDING PENNIFOLD b. 1778 and had many many kids including one JOHN STANDING PENFOLD b abt 1809 in mayfield sussex.(see how the surname changes !!!)
with the variant on the name penfold/pinfold/penfull/preful...maybe an older spelling of the surname pennifold/pennifield/pennyfold is not too bad a guess ??!!!!!!
okay well it seems like i am the one going that is going off on a tangent :P ...but i would rather mention stuff that i have gathered than not
hope to hear from you soon
deb
ps thanks for the sites that you posted annie, i will have a look and see if i can match something up with my family.
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Please excuse the butting in, but I have read this thread with interest.
I am trying to do some research for a friend of mine who has Penfold/James/Small conections.
I have found G. Grandmothers' Helen (Ellen) Penfold nee Small and Vashtie James nee Small. Their children married (we think) and had many children including Mark, Eliza, John, Vashti (Vastie), Jenty (Genty) Harriet, Prissy, Missy.
I wonder if you have found any link to the Penfold family you are looking for, I have found some of the Penfolds' that you have listed but we haven't found a direct link as yet.
Thanks in advance.
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Hi Jules
We love butting in...especially when there may be a direct connection to family members.
okay ..this may get complicated but bare with me....
John Pinfold/penfold married harriet james in 1836 in pimperne dorset.... they had a lot of kids ...one of them being my ggrandfather Thomas penfold (b.abt 1841) ..he married Sophia orchard (b abt 1846) in south molton devon in 1866.
they had lots of kids
defiance b 1872
John b1874...he married Ellen small (this is your friends family)
christona b 1873
William b abt 1874 married bessie palmer...this is my ggrandfather
christopher
edward
soffia
nelson
elizabeth
harriet
missy
selina
so to recap your friends gr grandfather (john who married ellen small) is the brother of my gr grandfather william who married bessie palmer.
John penfold and ellen small had these kids;
mark, eliza,john, vashtie, misselli,genty,edward,priscilla,harriet, sophie,helen.
your friend and i would then have the same gg grandparents ie; Thomas penfold and Sophia orchard
and the same ggg grandparents ie; John pinfold/penfold and Harriet James.
all of these folk were gypsy travellers and used to , by all accounts , travel together...therefore we find them all marrying each other over and over again.... eg:
another of john and harriets children elizabeth (betsy)penfold b.1845 married Edwin Orchard ...another penfold/orchard marriage
also alfred (son of john and harriet b.1850) married a louisa small ...they had abt 7 kids ...another penfold /small marriage ...although this one not directly related to your friends penfold/small marriage...
i hope all of this makes sense! :)
hope to hear from you soon
deb
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me again
just a PS:
you could try these sites they are great
www.penfold-genealogy@tiscali.co.uk
www.PENFOLD-L@rootsweb.com
I have actually come into contact with a number of living rellies..ie: cousins ..who i had no idea exsisted!!! :)
also i have actually been in contact with someone who is a direct relation to your friend...her mother or grandmother is Sophie - daughter of john penfold and ellen small.
i will try to find details for you
hope this helps you , jules
regards
deb
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This is fantastic.
I am going to let him know all this new info.
He is the grandson of Genty Penfold. She married John Albert James. Vashtie James's Son (another James wedding !) and had John, William, Vashtie, Jenty and Liberty. He is the Son of Jenty.
I will speak to him on Tues and try and get some more info for you.
Thanks for the web sites I will have a look now.
Regards
Jules
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I have been looking for John and Harriet Penfold prior to 1871 when Harriet is stated as a widow.
I think I have found them on the 1861.
RG9/1601 Folio 40 Page 30
Minehead
John Penford Head 52 Travelling Hawker b. Warminster
Harriett Penford Wife 49 Berkshire Kingclere
Thomas Penford Son 20 b. Dorset Poole
Christopher Penford Son 18 b. Somerset Taunton
Elizabeth Penford 16 Daughter b. Dorset Gladford (sic)
Alfred Penford 13 son b. Somerset Chalton
Henry Penford 10 son b. Somerset Bridgewater
Edward Penford 8 son b. Cornwall Dobbwalls
Still looking for them on the 1851 but what do you think ?
Regards
Jules
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Jules, what an excellent find!
I guess all (surviving) older children had left home - Deb had marriages for most of them before 1861. Incidentally, Christopher wasn't in Deb's list of children.
Let's hope you find the family in 1851 now!
Great that Deb's Thomas is there in 1861. But he and his wife (he married Sophia ORCHARD in 1866) and children are yet to be found in 1871 and 1881 (they were found in 1891 under PENFULL).
Cheers,
JAP
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Hi
Blimey jules ..how did you find them in 1861? i was searching today but using their kids names ...any of them born after 1850 hoping to find them> wow ...well done!!!!!
iI was under the impression that harriet was born in warminster and not john and as JAP pointed out , christopher is a family name ( christopher, christona) but i did not have him as a brother to thomas b abt 1841.
what a find ...... yey!!!
john pinfold/penfold ..hubby of harriet died in 1870 at age 64 .
so where are they in 1851 and who are the parents of john pinfold and harriet james?
Also where are thomas and sophia in '71 and "81 ...will keep looking ! :)
thanks again .... i am soo happyyou have found them!!!!! :) ;D
deb x
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Hi guys
I have been sitting at this computer searching when in actual fact i should be doing housework!!!! lol
i have not yet found Thomas and Sophia's info but have found some info that might be part of 'our' penfolds..... what do you think?
1891 census
RG12/1771 fol 73 pg 11 - A family of Henry penfold b. 1852 ( 2nd youngest child of John and Harriet (nee james) penfold:?)
south molton devon
henry - head- 40 licensed hawker
ocean (mistranscribed as orean) - 39
bessie -dau - hawker assistant 19
henry -son- " " 15
defiance-dau- 13
john 10
vasti 6
noah 8?
albert 3
leonard 1
then i found on 1901 census: family of Edward Penfold b 1853- (youngest son of john and harriet ??)
RG 13/2181 fol 70 pg 12
living at Truscott Farm rural district of Launceston (part of)
they do not give names here , just initials....
( In my miscellaneous info i have Edward married to Rachel Holland )
so this is the info
edward -head b abt 1853 (on original ...he is a hawker and horse dealer...the word stable has been added.
R penfold -wife- abt 1855
john penfold -son - abt 1882
L penfold - dau - abt 1885
J penfold -son - abt 1888
H penfold - dau - abt1892
T penfold -son - abt 1894
C penfold - son - abt 1895
M penfold - son- abt 1896
pity that there are no names ...but i am sure we could have a good guess at them ...lol... maybe a harriett , christopher, thomas ??/
....
hope to hear from you all soon
deb :)
ps let me know what you think!~
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We're on the same track. I had those printed out too. Still looking for them on the 1817 and 1881. Have you seen the Penfold family on 1881 RG11/2086 pages 22 and 23 they must fit in somewhere.
Jules
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Hi Jules
Just had a quick look...they are very , very interesting!!!
do you think that Robert (head) 1816 with his wife and son's family could be the brother of our John Penfold (m.Harriet james)???
robert penfold born same place as our john penfold.
as i said, just had a quick look, but will be back to investigate further LOL :)
have you spoken with your 'penfold' friend yet?
be back soon
deb
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What an interesting evening. Lots of names, births, deaths, marriages and stories that need sorting out.
It does seem that the James/Small/Penfold/Orchard marriages are still happening.
The problem is, that with the same names being used over and over again, its hard to work out who belongs to who.
I will keep you posted. ;D
I thought the same as you, wouldn't it be great if Robert was the brother to John ? :D
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Hello Deb and Jules,
It might be worth checking back again at all the census information which 'buttonmoon' posted at the start of this thread. Many of those surely have to be connected to your family. Henry and Ocean in 1891 are back on page 1, and in 1881 and (before they were married) in 1871 on page 2.
Edward in 1901 certainly looks right. I see that on the next page of the census there's another hawker family with a 19yo Edward Penfold with them (a son of Edward snr, I wonder).
Here is probably Rachel HOLLAND in 1861 with her family in Cutcombe Somerset - 'Gypsies Tent': RG9/1602, Fol 107, page 20.
With all the same names (surnames and forenames) recurring, and the intermarriages between families, you will need some good family history software to keep them all in order and work out all the relationships!
JAP
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hi guys
it's been a while....just wanted to update you on things.......
i have found NOTHING....nothing for them on 71/81 and also 41.
i am in the doldrums....and feel really hopeless about finding them, i have searched and searched,...but to no avail.!!!!!~~~
they were most probably hiding or travelling to distant places.lol
just thought i would touch base with you in the hopes that you may have something new ......
take care
deb x
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Hi everyone
Just a quick update on things that have happened since last posting here. I had posted some messages on the bbc kent romany boards ...... and ...... found a cousin. Her name is Chris...she is the Granddaughter of Christopher Penfold who was the brother of my g grandfather William penfold.
Soooo....Thomas penfold and Sophia Orchard (married 1866) had lots of children amoung them Christopher and My William.
William married Bessie Palmer and had my grandmother Venie Violet
Christopher married Carnation Richards and had Eddie (who was my new found cousins Dad).
Hope this all makes sense.!!!???? LOL
Anyway she is full Romany and is teaching me some of their language, she has also sent me quite a lot of info and some pictures:)
Regarding the parents of John Penfold who married Harriet James in 1831...it seems that everyone is stumped.! I do have a copy of their Banns but , that unfortunately does not yield any parents names. Is there any other place that i could look to find John or Harriet's parents....ie: would they have given or signed their names somewhere to approve of the marriage ???
I am not giving up....LOL :)
hope everyone is well
regards
deb
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Hi Everyone
Edward Orchard was the son of Henry Orchard and Pricilla nee Penfold. In 1901 they were at Bridgwater
Information removed due to copyright violation. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php for more details
RootsChat must deal with any breach of copyright by its members.
For some time the team of Copyright Editors has been removing breaches of copyright and sending detailed personal messages to the member that had posted the information. Due to the volume of posts and members this is now impractical. Messages in breach will simply be deleted and this notice posted. We apologise for any inconvenience caused but are sure you will appreciate the importance of
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Edward married Florence Mabel Whitcombe from Meare in 1913 and after she died in 1917, married Elizabeth Whitcombe also from Meare later that year.
The Orchard family settled in Caerphilly where they have a farm that produces eggs. I thought the Orchard family might be interesting to trace back well!! After finding John and Sarah at Chapel Allerton with the various Orchard and Holland families and having a great time reading all your messages (I should be working!) I am not so sure.
regards Heather
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im also searching for penfolds back from john and Harriet, My husbands family come down through there son Henry and Ocean Penfold nee Hughes would love to get back father and also find out what happened to all the children
hi Debs thanks for letting me know about this site its great
Louise
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Hi, where are you?
Just in case, I want to tell you there are plenty of Penfold's here around South Molton now. My father used to do some horse dealing in the early thirties and knew all the Penfolds locally. There are still metal dealers decended from Penfold's in S.Molton now. Joe is the eldest I can remember, son Hamiline. There was also Chris, Charlotte, Ocean, Fiance, Amy. Lenard, Veine?,and I went to school with Violet. She would be in her late 60,s now. Locally there is a small wood where some of them lived for years, it is called Fairies Patch. and when the last of them died her caravan was burnt there.
G.W.
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Hi Westaway
Where are you? LOL So nice to hear from someone who knew the Penfolds. My nan Violet Venie died a few years ago ...she was in her 80's ... maybe you know/knew a different Violet. It would be fantastic if you went to school with my venie violet. :)
I would still be interested in any stories and if you had some photos that would be WONDERFUL.
By the way ...welcome to Rootschat! You will find a lot of wonderful people here that are always happy to help search. You will not be dissappointed ;D
Deb
ps: My mother tells me that her ggrandmother (my gg grandmother) was burnt in her caravan .
ps: Fairies Patch sounds wonderful , are there photos of it , I wonder?
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Hi, It,s me Glen again. I live about 10 miles from South Molton and found your postings quite by chance.
I shall have to have a good think but Violet Penfold's father was called Lenard (not sure on the spelling) and she had a brother and a sister that I can remember and possably more, Alfie was the brother. She was the youngest of the family by a long way. We went to school in the mid 40's and I always envied her boots. She had 2 pairs of high lace-up boots and it seemed to me she wore them summer and winter, but I expect I'm wrong.
There was a fair at Bampton (still is but no livestock anymore). This was like the meeting of the clan's Every Penfold and connected families would meet there to deal in horses and generally have a real good party. I've heard my father say he sold a horse there to one of the Penfold'sand they went out to the back of the pub to sort out the money, ? Penfold had a leather purse under his trousers from which he took the money and there was 100's of pounds in it. Another fair locally was at Chulmleigh, this was also a meeting place. One pub would be full of the Penfold's and I can remember this as recently as the 1960's. I shall have to send you a private message if you want and I could give you names and addresses of connections to your family. Must add your Mum looks exactly like most Penfolds I have ever known, especially a lady who died recently called Ivy Penfold. I will keep thinking!!!.
Glen
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I'm going daft- didn't realise there was a few pages of this thread :-[
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Deb,
You've got me going now and it's not even my rellies. But must admit I am a nosy so and so.
I had a quick look at Genes Reunited, 4000 odd Penfold's there and 11 Sophia Orchard's . Plenty b. Devon and Cornwall. O.K. there has been a lot of talk about the site but if you join at least you can ask to have a look at the tree.
I remember my Dad talking about Noah, and there was Joe, Stan, who's son is/was a school teacher I think, and Chris, These would all have been around in the last 40 years I guess. Violet's older sister was called Sophie. Violet lives/ lived in Tiverton the last I heard. Don't know a married name.
Ivy who died recently, was married to a Roberts. They ran a few horses National Hunt.
Will send a personal E-MAIL with more recent info.
Glen
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hi Deb and Co
sound like thinks have been getting interesting , my husband G-Grandmother Vashti lived in a Caravan/old bus in the woods Somewhere down South Molton way, my husband can remember it from his child hood but isnt quite sure where she was a penfold til marriage. the Violet your talking about i think was one of 6 children of Leonard and Sophie Penfold nee Orchard, Voilet is i belive still alive and was the youngest by quite a bit to the others Sophie and Besty are also still about last i heard , take care Louise
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Hi its Glen here.
You have the Violet I went to school with O.K. they lived in a wooden bungalow at Burridge Moor on the Witheridge- Chawleigh road.
Vashni I think I remember was more often called Vienie? I can remember her husband also but the name escapes at the moment.and she had a sister Jennti ??? She was the Carnival Queen at South Molton once. Were they the daughters of Joe or Chris Penfold? When they were young they used to come around all the farms in a pony and trap selling things like socks, tea towels buttons thread and such like and buying rags and rabbit and mole skins. My mum always bought her clothes pegs from them and would never buy the spring ones you get today. I expect you know, but they were made from partially split sticks about 6 inches long and had a piece of tin around the top of the split about 2/3 of the way up.
I see you are in Somerset, there is a special day at the West Country Studies Library I saw when I was in there today. It's all about Gypsies and Travelling people and offers help with tracing family tree's, also photographs on show. Pretty sure it's Sat. Oct 14th but a phone call would confirm it.
Will post again when my memory returns, it's all so long ago!!
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1901 census Penfolds at North Tawton in Devon.
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hi Louise and Glen
Louise ..... how lucky you are to have hooked up with Glen who actually knew your Penfolds..... I am Soooooooooooooo envious ;D
I am still trying to find my Thomas penfold and Sophia Orchard in the 1871 and 1881 census.... WHERE ARE THEY????
Glen ... wish i could have some of the Penfold memories that you have!
please everyone leep looking for mine too ;)
deb
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Hi All
yes we are gona try an get to exeter for the r.t.f.h.s day on the 14th, my Vashti was in her late 70s in the 70s when she died she was a Saunders by marriage then a Reed, she had 5 Saunders Children Ocean, Caroline,Leonard Sophia and Defiance(my husbands granny) Vashti was sister to Leonard Penfold Violets Father so they would of been cousins. i know they travelled about alot but were often back round the tiverton area. Caroline and Defiance married two Holland Brothers, Sophia married an Orchard (i think) and Leonard married a James (we think) not sure about Ocean but she was Alive last heard, hope this helps and Maybe you may remember them take care Louise
ps Debs im still looking for them
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Hi Louise :D
Just noticed some other names at the bottom of your profile....... Hawkins!
My great uncle Nelson, brother to my Violet, son of William penfold and Bessie Palmer, Grandson of ThoMas Penfold and Sophia Orchard .... married a Pearlie Hawkins.
She originally came from Cornwall but her and nelson lived for years and years in Plymouth ,Devon.
Is there a connection?
thanks
deb
PS: so strange to look at your names and mine at the bottom of our profile ...hehehehe ...penfolds/orchards/james etc !!~
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hi all
Leonard who lived a Burridge Moor was a brother to Noah Penfold. You will find the family at North Tawton in 1901.
Glen.
Will post again .
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hi Deb
as far as i know my Hawkins came from Somerset, a little place called Huish Champflower and Ash brittle is as far back as i can go about 1790 or there about, much easier than hubbys family as mine stayed put,
Glen
yes Leonard and Noah were Brothers Of Vashti (hubbys g-grandmother) along with Elizabeth, Henry, Defiance,John Albert,Robert ,Caroline and Joe. all children of Henry and Ocean Penfold nee Hughes
take care all
Louise
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Hi. I found these mails while I was looking for help to untangle all the information I have been collecting on the Penfold and Orchard families ready for the R&TFHS open day on 14th October. If anyone is in Exeter that Saturday, do come along. It is at the Devon Record Office at Sowton from 10.30 to 4. There is plenty of free parking outside. A map showing how to find the DRO is on its web site or give me a ring 9-5 on Exeter 384253.
There will be films, displays of family info, a bookstall and live music and the computers will be available to search census returns. Other sources I have found useful are the DFHS indexes to Plymouth marriages (I found three Buckland/Penfold marriages there) and the DFHS Small Projects Group indexes to pedlars certificates.
Thanks for reading this. I am so excited about the open day and I hope someone comes to it apart from me ::)
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hi
we are gona do our best to get down to it after taking daughter to gymnastics so should see you there all being well
Louise
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Have you had an e-mail from the Devon Records Office? That is where it's all happening!
I thought it was at the Local Studies Library.
You can get directions on their web site.
Don't go into Exeter.
Web site will give you all directions.
http://www.devon.gov.uk/record_office.htm
Hope I will be able to get there, Should find you by the photo!
If not there have a lovely day
Glen
Just found the e-mail
Hi. I found these mails while I was looking for help to untangle all the information I have been collecting on the Penfold and Orchard families ready for the R&TFHS open day on 14th October. If anyone is in Exeter that Saturday, do come along. It is at the Devon Record Office at Sowton from 10.30 to 4. There is plenty of free parking outside. A map showing how to find the DRO is on its web site or give me a ring 9-5 on Exeter 384253.
There will be films, displays of family info, a bookstall and live music and the computers will be available to search census returns. Other sources I have found useful are the DFHS indexes to Plymouth marriages (I found three Buckland/Penfold marriages there) and the DFHS Small Projects Group indexes to pedlars certificates.
Thanks for reading this. I am so excited about the open day and I hope someone comes to it apart from me.
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husband thinks he know where it is roughley, not to far from the barn owl!!?
looking forward to it will see you all there hopefully
take care Louise
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http://www.romanygenes.webeden.co.uk/
penfold and orchards
sylvia
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:)
Thanks for that Maidmarionoops ....It's a great site and so much info ...It has filled in some gaps for me ! ;D
deb
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http://romany.rootschat.net/
have you seen this Deb..
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are we using this thread too??
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hi deb
i am in Uk related to Penfold family and many other romani families BUCKLAND STANLEY SMITH LOVELL BOSWELL JAMES ORCHARD
i have lots of information about families especially as most of my own family travelled the South west of England and also went to USA
If you contact me will try and help you
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Hi Tiggi,
A big welcome to RootsChat. :D I am sure Deb will be very pleased to hear from you. You have picked a great time to join us as Deb's Penfold Family are the subject of this weeks Scavenger Hunt. ;D
You might like to take a look
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,265094.0.html
Kris :D
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Hi
I would say it would help a great deal if you get marriage certificate deb will help you a great deal as so many Penfold & Orchard with same names & dates of birth, i know it maybe differcult for you in USA but unless you find someone here with that info you could link to completely wrong family
It was very common for traveling families to say they were born from place on Census they were staying at time so can be very confusing as to where they actually were born.
I have found family in 1861 Census UK ( under name of Penford)
In Minehead Somerset RG9 -1601-40 page 30
Harriet Penfold ( mother) 49 1812 Kingslere Berkshire
John Penfold ( Father) 52 1809 Warminster
Thomas Penfold ( Son ) 20 1841 Poole Dorset
Christropher Penfold ( Son )18 1843 Taunton Somerset
Elizabeth Penfold ( Daughter) 16 1845 Glandford Dorset
Alfred Penfold ( Son ) 13 1848 Chalton Somerset
Henry Penfold 10 ( Son ) 1851 Bridgewater Somerset
Edward A Penfold ( Son )8 1853 Dubbwalls Cornwall
I find family again In 1871 Census Lamerton Tavistock Devon
John ( father) is gone so presume he is dead
Thomas & Christopher are missing would presume already married
Harriet Penfold ( mother) 58 1813 warminster Wilts
Elizabeth Penfold 24 1847 Sturminster Dorset
Alfred Penfold 22 1849 Marston Somerset
Henry Penfold 20 1851 Bridgewater Somerset
Edward Penfold 18 1853 Dobwalls Cornwall
William Penfold 8 1863 Plymouth Devon ( Grandson)
Charlotte Guess 11 1860 paigton Devon ( Granddaughter)
Ocean Hughes 20 1851 Honiton Devon ( Visitor)
as you can see from these Census same family slight different birth places but 2 children Henry & Alfred born exact year and place so has to be same family
you know that Thomas Penfold is married by 1871 explains him missing from above
Christopher Penfold his brother is now in 1871 in Dean prior Totnes Buckliegh Devon
Christopher Penfold 26 1845 Taunton (Basketmaker)
Patience 24 1844 Seaton Devon
John 6 1865 Plymouth Devon
Patience 11mths 1870 Torquay Devon
I have census records for both Henry & Alfred Edward William Penfold ( Thomas brothers) too much to type on here,
Henry Penfold in 1881 1891 1901
Alfred Penfold in 1891 1901
Edward Penfold 1901
William 1901
The Robert Penfold & Amelia someone mentions I would guess he was brother to John & Harriett Penfold
Here are marriages
Thomas Penfold m Sophia Orchard
1866 south Moulton Devon 5b 833 Apr
Christopher Penfold m Patience Guess( Guest)
1864 Plymouth 5b 476 Oct
Elizabeth Penfold m Edwin Orchard
1871 Plymouth 5b 476 Apr
Alfred Penfold m Louisa Small
1871 Plymouth 5b 477 Apr
Edward Penfold m Ocean Orchard
1899 Tavistock Cornwall 5b 732
Phew got writer's cramp now hope this helps you if i can tel you anything else please say
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hi Deb
I have some marriages of Thomas Penfold children for you
Christina Penfold m William Orchard 1898 St Austell
Edward Penfold m Mary Ann Orchard 1899 Tavistock
Harriet Penfold m William Small 1915 Plymouth
will keep looking through my records for anymore
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Hi Deb
If you have Pricilla Penfold born 1860 on your tree, daughter of Robert and Amelia, later married Henry Orchard b 1857 at Chaffcombe I have some info on their son Edward who was born at Shapwick in Somerset 1889 (according to census) Henry and Pricilla were at Bridgwater in 1901, Henry a licenced van hawker.
Heather
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Hi everyone ... Thanks for all the info ...
I am away for the weekend ... will be back soon
deb
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hi Debs
hows it going? give me a yell if there is anything i can look up for you .
hi Tiggi
you mind me asking which Penfold you come down from, my husbands family also has Penfolds,Orchards and James in
would be good to link up if we can
matilda
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I am related to these names in my family tree :
Henry Buckland (son of Tenett Buckland my Great Great Grandfather) m Harriett Penfold in 1878 Plypmton St mary Devon ( they went to USA and stayed there, their daughter Esther m John Penfold also in USA
Joshua Buckland m Selina Penfold 1887 Totnes
Jenty Buckland m Wiliiam Penfold 1887 Plymouth
Sophy Buckland m James Penfold 1887 Plymouth
All Buckland children father was Plato Buckland (My great-Great Uncle & brother to Tenett Buckland)
Eliza Buckland m Nelson James 1899 Liskeard ( daughter of Nelson Buckland my Great- Great-grandfather & son of tenett Buckland)
Betsey Smith wife of Nelson Buckland her sisters married :
Selina smith married Henry James in 1866 Devon
Louisa Smith m Penfold
I have more but its differcult to place them all
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Hi Tiggi
thanks for getting back to me.
was it your Louisa Smith who married Robert Penfold son of John and Harriet daughter of James and Eliza Smith, (just trying towork itout )
Matilda
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right managed to open my file now :
Betsey Smith ( my great Grandmother) had we think 4 sisters
Selina married Henry James 1866
Harriet m Robert Lee
Britannia never married
Peggy Smith m Joseph ( Joe) Orchard had a daughter Lousia m Will Packman
Their children were :
Defiance m Joe Orchard
Louise m john Jack ( Gunner) Orchard
Mary m Joe Birch
Betsey m Jack Tucker
Emily m Alfie Harrison
Rosie m Mosey Stanley
florence m Charlie Tucker
William died as baby
John m 2 saunders girls( married twice)
Jenty m Edward Penfold
Thomas m Lena Penfold
Charlotte m Albert Harmer
William m Pheobe Penfold
The one I am most interested to find a link too is the son of Edith Buckland & wisdom Smith
Their son Nathan married a Sarah Orchard ( widow) 1906 in plymouth but not been able to find any relations up until now
Matilda if you give me names you are interested in I will look for a link there are so many names in family where parents used same first names its hard sometimes to figure out who they belong too
So if you tell me who you are looking for will try and help
sandy
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Hi all :)
Nice to meet you Tiggi and Heather :) :)
Matilda .... we have Harriet James ( who married John penfold , 1809) as being the d/o Thomas James and Harriet Palmer.... I need to go back to the other thread to be sure .... :-\
back later
deb :)
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Hi all :)
Matilda .... we have Harriet James ( who married John penfold , 1809) as being the d/o Thomas James and Harriet Palmer.... I need to go back to the other thread to be sure .... :-\
back later
deb :)
i'm not sure if that was actually confirmed Deb just they had the same name and were married in the same place as Harriets birth Kingsclere, did we ever find Harriets bapt. ?
can we use the same thread please i am getting confused.!
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back now sorry husband had forgotten his climbing harness had to drive it out to him.
right my husbands family come down from Henry Penfold( son of John and Harriet so im intrested in them) and Ocean Hughes. they link up with many other familys including Saunders Orchards Loveridges Hearnes Davis . so im always on the look out.
my tree has a lot of distance branches as i collect info of siblings and children aswell as they all travelled closely and offten linked back up through marrage, would love to find Ocean in a census before her marriage (got the one when she is with Henrys family as a vistor
thanks
Matilda
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Peggy Smith m Joseph ( Joe) Orchard had a daughter Lousia m Will Packman
Their children were :
Defiance m Joe Orchard
Louise m john Jack ( Gunner) Orchard
Mary m Joe Birch
Betsey m Jack Tucker
Emily m Alfie Harrison
Rosie m Mosey Stanley
florence m Charlie Tucker
William died as baby
John m 2 saunders girls( married twice)
Jenty m Edward Penfold
Thomas m Lena Penfold
Charlotte m Albert Harmer
William m Pheobe Penfold
sorry dont mean to be thick but are they Peggy and Joes kids or Louisa and Bill :-[
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hi, i searched the offical 1901censusonline site (which has other census other than 1901) and there areno matches fro Ocean Hughes anywhere other than the 1871 one where she is aged 20 in tavistock
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Sandy
ive had a look at the Smiths i have
James Smith m Eliza Scarrott children
Peggy m Joe Orchard
Fiance died 1863 m Robert Penfold
Louisa m Robert Penfold(after her siter died)
Betsey
is this yours sorry dont have many dates for them , i,ll see if i can find a Sarah Orchard for you
havent put all info into tree program yet paper everywhere
Matilda
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Thanks for Looking Toni
i have her in 1891 as Ocean Penfold with Henry and in 1901 with Henry but down as fiance?? cant find them in1881 or her before 1871
Matilda
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yes we found her in 1871 and 1901 did you have a look at the other thread? we are on Part 2 now.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,266055.msg1517238.html#msg1517238
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yeah
spent sometime this morning going through it all think im up to date with it.
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the son of Edith Buckland & wisdom Smith
Their son Nathan married a Sarah Orchard ( widow) 1906 in plymouth but not been able to find any relations up until now
do you know who Edith and Wisdoms parents are? dont think ive come acoss them any where but i will have a look for you
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hi matilda
right trying to follow this ok I have James Smith ( no wife I don't know name but Scarrott has been mentioned before to me)
now he had children Selina, William, Betsey ( my Great Grandmother), Harriet peggy Britannia
Selina Smith born 1844 Taunton
married 1886 Plymouth
Henry James born 1846 Somerset
On their marriage certificate witnessess were Defiance Orchard & William Smith ( brother)
william Smith married Caroline Smitheram 1874 Helston
james father deceased
Peggy Smith married Joe Orchard 1875 Truro
witnesses were her sister Harriet Smith ( Lee) & robert lee her husband ( James the father was deceased on record)
that is on previous link their children listed yes
Betsey married Nelson buckland ( My great grandparents)
Their daughter Edith married wisdom Smith in Bromsgrove 1872 not sure how he connects with Smith's
the other thing is we have Nelson parents Tenett buckland who married a Keziah Smith she was born 1832 ( NK)
so it could be James & keziah are brother & sister
but where does Wisdom fit ?
sorry have to go out for a few hours but will come back on later tonight you can always email me matilda it sounds like we have a link somewhere just need to figure it out
sandy
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will see what i can find out while your gone and let you know.
think they is a link somewhere penfolds always seem to somehow
catch you later
Matilda
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right lets see if ive got it right i now have 8 children for James and Eliza smith
peggy mjoe Orchard
fiance c1840 m Robert Penfold
louisa c1845 m Robert Penfold
betsey m Nelson Buckland
selina 1844 m Henry james
harriet
william m Caroline smithram
britannia
does that seem right
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got it i think
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I think you do Matilda .... How do they connect with the Penfolds ...will have to reread , I think ;D
deb
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Hi Tiggi :)
who did all the Penfolds who married below, belong to? wish they could have used different names for their children ;D ::) ::)
I am related to these names in my family tree :
Henry Buckland (son of Tenett Buckland my Great Great Grandfather) m Harriett Penfold in 1878 Plypmton St mary Devon ( they went to USA and stayed there, their daughter Esther m John Penfold also in USA
Joshua Buckland m Selina Penfold 1887 Totnes
Jenty Buckland m Wiliiam Penfold 1887 Plymouth
Sophy Buckland m James Penfold 1887 Plymouth
All Buckland children father was Plato Buckland (My great-Great Uncle & brother to Tenett Buckland)
deb
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Hi Matilda
the son of Edith Buckland & wisdom Smith
Their son Nathan married a Sarah Orchard ( widow) 1906 in plymouth but not been able to find any relations up until now
do you know who Edith and Wisdoms parents are? dont think ive come acoss them any where but i will have a look for you
In 1861;
there is a Wisdom Smith, 9, living with his parents Wisdom and Precilla Smith and lots of siblings (one called Ocean....LOL)
there are a lot of Smiths living 'next door' ...some are hawkers, some labourers ... they are living near a quarry.
Rg9/890 fol 51 p 29
deb
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i havent worked them out yet but i,ll have a go
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had a quick look for the Penfold that married bucklands none jump out and shout at me will need father digging
???
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ok im going round in circles :-\ i have a census for Edith and Wisdom Smith RG11; Piece: 2217; Folio: 137; Page: 55 but they are down as daughter of Tenant and Kesiah buckland, i though they were grandparents and nelson and betsy were parents.
Am i going mad or just got confused :'(
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RG12; Piece: 1807; Folio 32; Page 10 are these the same family or is this were im getting muddeled
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oh no not Smiths ;D
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i think i need to go way sit down with a large glass of wine ;)
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RG12; Piece: 1807; Folio 32; Page 10 are these the same family or is this were im getting muddeled
i cant view it cos i onyl have access to 1881 the free one!
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1891 St Germans Cornwall
Betsy Buckland 21
Edif Buckland 28
Esther Buckland 18
Henry Buckland 23
Moses Buckland 16
Nelson Buckland 30
Rezia Buckland 36
Thennant Buckland 41
Thomas Buckland 26
1901 St Stephen Glencoe Cornwall
Ayne Buckland 22
Bessie Buckland 50
Edith Buckland 17
Jamie Buckland 14
Jane Buckland 19
Moses Buckland 12
Nalson Buckland 46
Willie Buckland 7
1881 In Caravans Pethericks Ground Bannerock St
Age
Anne Buckland 18
Betsey Buckland 28
Betsey Buckland 16
Eliza Buckland 6
Esther Buckland 13
Henry Buckland 17
Kesiah Buckland 61
Moses Buckland 14
Nelson Buckland 23
Plato Buckland 15
Tenant Buckland 63
Edith Smith 22
Nelson Smith
Sophy Smith 1
Wisdom Smith 33
do you think these fit together some where
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hello I am here now you are talking about my family definiately
right lets start at beginning
We have 2 brothers Tenett & Plato Buckland both of them travelled back & forth to USA
The earliest time August 9th 1856 on SS kangaroo also loads of Stanley's Cooper's & Hicks & Smith's I have the full list of passengers but as there are like 58 names anyone who can give me a name i will check for them
Now tenett ( tenant) buckland listed on 1881 Census England married Keziah Smith but they have the date of birth wrong for them it should be 1831 for Tenant & 1832 for keziah
Nelson is their son Betsey his wife ( also a Smith and her father was James Smith she was also sister of Selina William Peggy Harriet Britannia )
eith Smith was Tenant daughter wisdom Smith i am not sure if he was related to either Keziah or James Smith
all the Penfolds I have mentioned who married Bucklands were either the children of Plato or Children of Tenett
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right think ive got that,
do you have a rough dob for nelson
Edith that married Wisdom was Tenents Daughter is that right if so i have the right ones on the 1901 census ???
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who do you have on 1901 census ? because edith died 1981 in honiton devon ?
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If its easier you can chat with me on
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another site i would suggest for anyone looking for gypsy relations is romanygenes its brill loads of information on there and the site owner has started a Buckland page for me so go check it out very helpful site
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okay that would be great, off to feed the kids in a min
i sent Sue some stuff on the Penfolds Hollands etc dont know if she has put it on yet speak later
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Sorry to break into this thread, but are the Milnes you have in your family interests travellers. I will start anew if the answer is yes!
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no my Milnes are from Halifax and have no travelling links that i know of
Matilda
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I have heard my parents talk about a family called Mills who were travellers they lived in Callington cornwall 1930s on wards
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matilda have you anything on James smith & eliza Scrarrott ? i have been told by a traveller its possible they are parents of My smith side Selina Betsey William harriet peggy & Britannia ?
would you be able to let me see what you have
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yeah i have a bit on them well on the Scarrotts
William & Joseph Orchard married Caroline and Susan Scarrott at Shipton under Wychwood, Oxon 2.10.1843 & 3.10.1842 both daughters of William Scarrott of Cheslyn Hay, Staffs.
Eliza Scarrott married James Smith un confirmed. Their daughter Peggy married a Joseph Orchard son of William & Caroline (above)
Joseph & Susan (above) had a son Edwin Orchrd 11.11.1843 Ledbury, Herefordshire.
Joseph dies in 1899 living with Annie “Orchard” in Plymouth. She died in 1905 and is 20 years too young to be his wife Susan.
William & Caroline both died in Feb 1900 near Hatherleigh. Headstone in village church.
Susan Scarrott baptised 3.12.1820 Launton, Oxon but Susanna Scarrott d/o William & Margaret Scarrott travelling basket maker.
hopethat helps a bit
Matilda
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thats very interesting my Peggy Smith who married a joseph Orchard 1875 Truro devon, on their marriage certificate it says her father was James Smith deceased licensed Hawker
joseph father was William Orchard Licensed Hawker witnesses were her sister Harriet Lee ( Nee smith) & robert Lee husband
joseph was 31 when he married so born 1845 peggy was 20 so born 1855 does any of this fit with you?
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Hi Matilda
I found something interesting about Scarrott family
a man called Shadrack Scarrott ( Scarritt) b 1825 Ramsden
Oxfordshire also a Esan Scarrott b 1802 Charlbury Oxfordshire could they be related Scarrot family you mention.
I have census records from 1841 up to 1901
In 1851 Shadrack was traveling with his family down as traveller now interesting point is they are with a family of Buckland
Timothy b 1807 Great Missenden Buckinghamshire & Penelope Buckland Hawkers they must be related to my Bucklands some how
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Hi Tiggi
sounds like the same family to me Peggy and Joe i mean, havent heard of the others but they may link up somewhere
Matilda
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hi matilda I should have said that harriet Lee & robert Lee were married and Harriet was sister of Peggy Orchard borh girls were Smiths before marriage
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hi just notice post about THOMAS PENFOLD & SOPHIA. I am a great geat granson of theres so if there is any thing i can help with let me know and i will see what i can do>
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hi im violet penfolds great grandson - the one that lived at burridge moor mentioned a few pages back, i came by this thread by chance so thought i should say hello! :)
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Hello I went to East Worlington School with Violet, I lived at Affeton Mill. Please remember me to her, I'm Glenys Keenor. The last I heard she was living in Tiverton.
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hello yes i will, im violets grandson , not great grandson ! - my mistake , unfortunatly only her and betsy are still around - and we still go to bampton fair!!
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yes i know violet and betsy aswell.just posting to put me in the link.i am south west region myself and family
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pm me who you are accordiantom.we go to bampton fair aswellbetsy taylor nee penfold was killed there in the 1950s.she was the daughter of ocean penfold nee hughes and henry.betsy and joe were my husbands grandperants
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hi deb just came across this thread by chance, i am a desandant from john and harriet,i have been trying to find his father for sometime,we were always told they go back to new forrest area,i tried the opc at kinson dorset but he said no record of him born there, but i have seen somewhere he was born 1780/3 death is registered of oct/nov/dec 1868 aged 88,if this is correct his son john [junior] died two years after his dad also called, his wife charlotte penfold born about 1781, death is registered march 1874 aged 93,she may have been a palmer. after all john and harriet were married at pimperne dorset.
john [junior]married harriet is buried at braunton just outside barnstaple. 1870
my grandfather , robert was one of henry,s sons, so henry my great grandad and john my grt grt grandad. south stoneham, hampshire,i think john [senior] was issued. so maybe you could start looking in that area. regards,mike
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i have been told much the same but have not been able to find proof as yet!let me know if you find anything definate.hi debs?you okay?
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Hi
Blimey jules ..how did you find them in 1861? i was searching today but using their kids names ...any of them born after 1850 hoping to find them> wow ...well done!!!!!
iI was under the impression that harriet was born in warminster and not john and as JAP pointed out , christopher is a family name ( christopher, christona) but i did not have him as a brother to thomas b abt 1841.
what a find ...... yey!!!
john pinfold/penfold ..hubby of harriet died in 1870 at age 64 .
so where are they in 1851 and who are the parents of john pinfold and harriet james?
Also where are thomas and sophia in '71 and "81 ...will keep looking ! :)
thanks again .... i am soo happyyou have found them!!!!! :) ;D
deb x
hi, i did see somewhere,that john who married harriet,his father also called john born about 1783 [kinson]dorset] married a charlotte palmer,i have been trying to solve this for sometime, mike
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Hi
I've just started doing the family tree for my nan! I've got some details, seems we're distantly related. I was wondering if someone could post the family tree, I've got stuck in places with finding details. My nan was Lavinia Vercoe (now Gill), her parents were Amy penfold & norman temple vercoe. Amy's parents were Nelson penfold & lavinia Richards. Then Nelson's parents were sophia orchard & Thomas penfold. The siblings of all of these have been a struggle as my aunt has just scribbled details in no order. Any help would be greatly appreciated! I see Deb you're from North Carolina, hello from Cornwall, UK!
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Newbie here - just started researching my family tree on my maternal grandmothers side - she died about 30 years ago now but my Mum has always told a few stories which we didn't know were true or not. My gran had said she was born into a travelling family but her mother disappeared at an early age and she was raised by her father and grandparents who were not travellers and she also maintained that her parents were never officially married.
Anyway - last week I got hold of her birth certificate and did some digging - her parents are listed as William and Sophia Quick - nee Penfoe. They are listed in the 1901 census but by 1911 Sophia has disappeared. After much digging around it became apparent that this was obviously a transcribing error and that her name was Sophia Penfold. She was born in 1881 though I only have the fact that in 1901 she was listed as being 20. It makes sense therefore that she is the daughter of Thomas Penfold and Sophia Penfold (nee Orchard) and it would appear I am related to a few people on here.
Sadly I cannot find anything about what happened to her post 1901 - somehow doubt I ever will but if anyone has any info I would be happy to hear it
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i am not sure i understand you?was it william Quick and Sophie orchard??i have a Sophie orchard married Leonard Penfold.Sophie being born 1892 in Cornwall?I have a william Quick but he married twice the first time to Emma Copp and then Emma Tout.he was born about 1830?thier children were Mary Jane (1862-1943)
Eliza Ann (1865-)
Henrietta (1868-)
It may help if you could give the area she was born?By your post i understand she was surname Quick is that right?how do you change the fact on her birth cert from Sophie Penfold to Sophie Orchard ?
Have you got any previous Travellers in your line?If you give us their names areas and ages we might be able to work out her family.My Sophie Orchard marries leonard penfold died 1968 by the way.They had a daughter Sophie but she was born 1912?
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do you know who she married??
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Sorry if it sounded confusing!
My gran is Florence Quick
She was born in 1899 - her parents were William Quick and Sophia Quick (whose maiden name was Penfoe = Penfold)
She was born in Winterbourne but lived around the Burlescombe/Nicholashayne area
I am trying to trace her mother - Sophia Penfold who was born c 1881 and I believe that her parents were Thomas and Sophia Penfold (nee Orchard) as per this thread
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Gets confusing with so many Christian names coming up again and again - but Sophia Penfold (b1881) as far as I can tell was never actually officially married to William Quick and left shortly after 1901 and I cannot find out what happened to her
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The sophia orchard who married Thomas Penfold had a daughter where her name was mistranscribed as Soffia Penfold
BIRTHabt 1881 'but she married Joseph Orchard in 1907??
off for tea will continue later.
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Excellent many thanks - I have seen her name written as both Soffia and Sophia which hasn't helped searching but pretty much sure she was born 1881 as either Sophia or Soffia Penfold
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but there is a sophia Quick born 1881 aswell??Name: Sophia Quick
Registration Year: 1881
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration district: Penzance
but her mum and dad were John and Jane quick.
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1901 cencus your florence...William Quick 28
Sophia Quick 20
Florence Quick 1
Blanche Quick 3/12
Ellen Quick 17
Does the Sophia Quick in this record match the person in your tree?
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i wonder what happened to florences brothers and sisters after she left them?they are not with her in 1911!!!Street address: Irafield Off Stockland Head, Cullompton, Devon
Marital status: Married
Occupation: Assistant in Business
Registration district: Honiton
Registration District Number: 269
Sub-registration district: Ottery St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Household schedule number: 28
Piece: 12565
Household Members:
Name Age
Joe Orchard 40
Sofia Orchard 29
they were living in a field by 1911
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sophie died=Name: Sophie Orchard
Death Age: 44
Birth Date: abt 1883
Registration Date: Jul 1927
[Aug 1927]
[Sep 1927]
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
In Homiton Devon
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have you got florence and her william and her grandparents in 1911??oh and by the way you are our first cousin 3 x removed!!
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Yup the 1901 census is where I started - Florence (my gran) living with her Mum and Dad, her sister Blanche and her Aunty Ellen who was Williams sister. My Mum remembers her grandad William Quick and her Aunty Blanche but Sophia her gran was never talked about!
Blanche and Florence stayed with their Dad and his parents after Sophia "left" which I believe was a travellers tradition if children were fathered by someone who was not a traveller.
where did you find a record of her marrying Joseph Orchard in 1907?
Oh and nice to meet you cousin :D
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his is the 1911 census for the Quicks - minus Sophia!
https://www.myheritage.com/research/record-10446-14717956/florence-quick-in-1911-england-wales-census?s=654964221
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Would love to know if Sofia and Joe had any children
Thanks for your help - Mum will love to hear this news when I call her later, she is 82 now and lost the last of her siblings a couple of weeks ago which has sort of been the inspiration behind this search before all is forgotten and it's too late to piece together memories which all add up
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it was in my tree.not sure if i have the marriage cert i will have to look but i would have found it on Ancestry.co.uk as that is where i subscribe.i dont know of any kids but i expect there were but they married in 1907 so i would have though there would be kids by 1908!!.i will see if i can find any.
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there's a few kids with mother Penfold and father Orchard between 1911 and 1924 but whether they are theirs or not i don't know.i only go to about 1911 in my tree so as not to upset the living folks.you may find Joe and Sophia in the 1939 cencus with some kids??
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Will do some digging though I she did die in 1927.
I guess my Gran had quite a tough upbringing and would explain her "tough" character - she separated and divorced my grandad in the 1940's/50's - not a common thing at the time, though that may be down to a family rumour of a certain GI Joe who was also brought up during dementia in her later life - her budgies were always called Joey!!
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Ian Devon, please PM me, I know what happened to Sophie. Joe orchard was my great grandfather.