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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: BBC Gloucs on Saturday 11 February 06 10:13 GMT (UK)
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Hello Everyone
Judith is visiting Rootschat today & would like to know about
Freidrick Napoleon WIRTZ born c 1846 in Prussia.
His father was John Napoleon WIRTZ a Stationer.
Freidrick married Ann BOYMAN in 1868 in Southwark & they lived in Chatham. They were married as Catholics.
Judith would be grateful for any info on their origins in Prussia.
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Hi Judith,
Welcome to RootsChat !
My first question for immigrant ancestors is always, was he naturalised ??
Not every immigrant did become naturalised, but if yours did, then you can find the naturalisation papers at the National Archives in Kew.
See this topic: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,130042.0.html for more details.
Good luck,
Bob
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on the 1881 census at http://www.familysearch.org
there is a Frederick WIRTZ, commercial clerk, born in Germany, but 1854
... and his wife is called Wildred (Mildred ?) :(
.. and living in Stafford :( :(
Don't think that's him !
Any sightings in 1871 ??
Bob
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In 1871 there is this guy
Frederick J U Wirtz t 1846 Preußen Head living Charlton London Mathematical Instrument Maker wife Ann and children Frederick and Margaretta.
Initials threw me - definetley J.U.
Doesn't help with origins, though
Tricia ???
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Better still
1881 again,
Frederick M. Wisby or Wirtz, born 1846, Germany, with wife Anne, who was born in Chatham
He's now a milk seller, living in Edmonton. Middlesex,
with 3 daughters and two sons.
Bob
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Can anybody look at an 1881 image ??
RG11 1389 / 14 / 21
If the M. is a badly transcribed N then this could well be Napoleon
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Bob - it's J.U
Could you check that 1871 entry for occupation - it was difficult to read
RG10/774
Folio: 85
Page: 16
Tricia
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It's defo Wirtz in 1881.
Frederick's 2nd initial looks indeed like an M whereas son Albert's is clearly an N.
However, they look very much like the right family, don't they?
(Albert Napoleon was registered March quarter 1879).
Tanja :)
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Re 1871 I agree with Tricia (mathematical instrument maker).
However child Margaret matches with later census returns, and wife's name Ann as well...
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Tanja - have another look at those initials - I would bet money on J.U
Update ;D
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I don't have access to images, but using the 1901decoder and searching for WIRTZ, "living on the same page" I've found
- Sarah & Napoleon WIRTZ (Napoleon born 1858 in Germany) living in Hackney
and on another page,
- Ann (the mother) and Albert (Son on 1881) + Emma (wife ?) all living together in Hackney
Again, we need someone to check the image for more details.
There are 5 german WIRTZ living in Hackney, so a family relationship is a possibilty ...
Bob
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Tricia - yes, J U - still searching for a capital N on the page to see if it could be N.
(Anyway, there aren't many Frederick Wirtz' born Germany around so I bet this is him).
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Can't see Frederick after 1881 but did see this
Wirtz, Frederick
Death Qrt ending June 1883
Hackney
Volume: 1b
Page: 341
Age at death: 37
Tricia
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Is there anyone out there?
Would you like full details from 1871 and 1881.
What are your views re those initials?
Another possiblitiy
Margaretha Annie
Marriages Qrt ending September 1889
Holborn
Volume: 1b
Page: 1246
CLARK, Reuben
NEWBORN, Edward James
NEWMAN, Florence Emily
Wirtz, Margaretha Annie
Tricia
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Bob :)
1901
Ann Wirtz, wid, 59, b. Chatham Kent is with her children Albert and Emma, both single.
at 47 Morning Lane Hackney.
I'm afraid all this doesn't help us find where they came from in Germany :P
Judith - would you like the complete details for these census returns or do you already have them?
Edit: Oops - Tricia's quicker than me!!
Tanja :)
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On the 1881, according to familysearch.org, there is a Mayarettina, 10
Could this be Margaretha Annie marrying in 1889
If Frederick died in 1883, then this would explain Anne living with her Son and D-i-L in 1901
(my money is still on the WIRSBY or WIRTZ family from the 1881)
The other Napoleon could still be a relation, the coincidence, WIRTZ, Napoleon, Hackney, is too big !
Judith, any other legends or stories in the family to explain that name ??? :) :)
Google brings up lots of references to Napoleon in Prussia, but none with WIRTZ and Napoleon together.
Bob
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Quite a lot of WIRTZ families on http://gedbas.genealogy.net/
but no Friedrich around our time scale and no Napoleon :(
Another potential source is http://www.geneanet.org/ ,
entering WIRTZ and Prussia brings up 10 entries,
entering WIRTZ and Preussen brings up 6 entries
but that takes a lot of searching !
see my "Rainy day tip"
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,11860.msg75149.html#msg75149
Bob
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1891 in case anyone is interested:
RG12/202 4 1
74 High Street Hackney
Ann Wirtz, head, wid, 48, General shopkeeper, b. Kent Gilligham
Rosa (=Agnes R found in 1881?*), dau, 18, servant dom, b. Kent Charlton
Albert, son, 12, scholar, b. London Homerton
Emma, dau, 8, b. Mddx Edmonton
Tanja :)
(found Minnie age 15 as a servant at 94 High Street Hackney - and a William Wirtz born Hackney age 13 at Upton House Truant School Hackney)
*Births Sep 1872 Woolwich: Agnes Rosa Wirtz
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So Emma (not born in the 1881 census) was Albert's sister, not his wife
and not Anne's D-i-L) ;D
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Right - Albert marries a little later (Sep 1902)
Births Sep 1874 Shoreditch
Minnie Elizabeth Wirtz
Marriages June 1897 Islington
Minnie Elizabeth Wirtz
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I also see a William Napoleon Wirtz marrying in June 1885 Holborn - possibly to a Sarah Swindell - probably the Napoleon found by Berlin-Bob earlier.
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on the 1881 there is a son called William, 3 years old.
Did Frederick WIRTZ's have siblings ??
Calling the father John Napoleon Wirtz implies that the whole family emigrated, and Father Johann or Johannes changed his name to John
The multiple Williams, Fredericks and Napoleons, living in the London seems to point in this direction.
Bob
ps. plenty of Johann/Johannes WIRTZ on http://gedbas.genealogy.net/ but we need a bit more information to locate him
A good start would be to go through the place names to see which are in Prussia
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Hello everyone
Thanks for all the information. I have most of it already. I think there was also an older son Frederick born 1870 who was disowned by the family. My mother didn't know of his existence but I found reference in the Times Archives to him being imprisoned for stealing a coat. What skeletons I am finding. My mother also had an Aunt Cissie - born about 1880 who married someone called Clark and had 6 boys but I can't find out much about her. Emma married Walter Huggins and had 5 children, Wally, Doris, Winnie, Rosie and Albert all of whom married foreigners much to her annoyance. She was the youngest and told my mother we should have had some money from Germany, which made me think father was still over there but I may be wrong. The fact that he met Ann in Chatham made me wonder if the family landed there? Would they have any records do you think?
Thanks again all
Judith
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Hi Judith,
Welcome aboard :) :)
No need to ask
Topic: How did you find Rootschat?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,47969.0.html ;D
Enjoy !
Bob
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Hi Judith
Great to "see" you again! :D
It might be best to start a new thread for some of your new questions. Aunt Cissie's family for example.
You had a great response to your first question - best of the day by far!
When you have had time to check out the links etc let us know how we can help you further
kind regards, Arranroots (aka BBC Gloucs yesterday) ;)
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If you search the National Archives site there is a reference to Frederick WIlliam WIRTZ in the Register if Seamen's Services -£3.50 to download image.
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Hello again
I have followed up lots of your ideas and think I may have a result. I looked into the other Wirtz families in England at the same time and I think that a Louis Alexander Wirtz, who settled in Liverpool, could be Frederick's older brother. He is about the right age and the French sounding name is encouraging. He took out British Nationality and his documents say he came from Trier - the same as featured in Julian Cleary's programme. I have contacted Trier and hope for a positive confirmation that this is the same family and will let you know as and when I hear.
Judith
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Sounds promising. Let us know how you get on.
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Judith,
Frederick Joseph Napoleon Wirtz, Born 1846 Prussia was my G/G/Grandfather. His son Frederick William (bn 1870) was my g/grandfather, his daughter Nellie Wirtz born 1908 (by Harriet Flewers) was my Grandmother. We are related !
Only just found this site. If you need info/confirmation of anything let me know.
Can't believe that after 7 years of researching I have found another Wirtz descendant!!! : :o
Babs
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Woo Hoo!! ;D
This just got even more exciting!
Welcome to Rootschat Babs :D
Do let us know if you unravel any of Judith's mysteries!
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Hope Judith sees this ;D
Tricia
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Would really like to know about G/grandad being imprisoned, I knew he was at a reformatory in 1881 and that he was on a training ship- HMS Impreganble c1885 ( believe he did a runner!) No further trace until 1901 census where he appears as WERTZ. ( Further info: He deserted my g/gran in 1912 and she ended up in Hackney workhouse with her four children.)
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Babs,
The Times, Friday, Jun 10, 1892; pg. 14; Issue 33661; col C shows that John Beckett, labourer, of Oswald-street, Lower Clapton, and Frederick Wirtz, labourer, of Clark-terrace, Glyn-road, Hackney, were charged together of breaking and entering the house of Mr Russell, in Ravensdale-road, Hackney, and stealing four coats worth about 7 pounds and 15 shillings in cash. A number of items which had been pawned by the accused were identified by witnesses at whose houses burglaries had occurred. They were committed on these charges and Wirtz on a further charge of stealing from another dwellings-house.
The Times, Friday, Jun 24, 1892; pg. 3; Issue 33673; col E
John Beckett, 18, and Frederick Wirtz, 23, were brought up for sentence, having been convincted yesterday - Beckett on one indicitment and Wirtz on two - of having recieved property, the proceeds of housebreaking in the Clapham area. Although their particpation in the actual housebreaking had not been proven, they were known to frequent Stannard's house (another man, aged 61, guilty for recieving stolen goods), and stolen property had been found in their possession shortly after it was stolen. Beckett got seven, Wirtz nine, and Stannard six months imprisonment with hard labour.
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Thanks so much for filling the gap!
Guess i really did descend from the black sheep, no wonder he was never mentioned by my Gran and Great gran. Are you a descendant of one of the sisters?
I know our frederick did make up with his brother Albert in later life.
Once again, Thanks
Babs
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Babs
Yes I am descended from Minnie Elizabeth (born 1874). She married George Daniel Meers and had 5 children, one of them was my mother.
Judith
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Well hello cousin,
You may be pleased to know that after Frederick, the family improved, in fact at one time both my sister and I worked for our local constabulary !!
Good luck in your research !!
Babs
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Hi everyone
Well Babs and I have exchanged lots of information and it is so interesting to see the similarities in our families. The artistic and creative side of the family obviously came from the Wirtz genes. Both Babs's sister and mine hand make greeting cards and we both have houses full of books. She knows of other family rumours linking gt.gt. grandfather to the German Hospital at Dalston and also some connection with Eugenie - Napoleon's wife? I had already found a Jean Wirtz who fought with Napoleon and was awarded the St Helena medal so may try to find more out about this from France. Any ideas where to start?
Judith
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Empressive - sorry impressive!! ;D
I am sure most of us would swap you an ag lab for an Empress, if only for a day!
Wonderful that you have made the connection and I hope you enjoy your new virtual friendship.
I would be inclined to post again for your new line of enquiry. Try the Common Room board this time, as we do not know (do we?) that this family immigrated until later. You can refer to this thread by pasting the URL into the new one.
Good luck - I for one will be watching to see where it leads. Hopefully we can help both of you with your other lines of enquiry too.
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Jorose
Thanks for Times reports
Any idea where I could get copies of original newsprint, my mum was so intrigued by these!!
Thanks
Babs