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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Berlin-Bob on Thursday 25 November 04 11:14 GMT (UK)

Title: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: Berlin-Bob on Thursday 25 November 04 11:14 GMT (UK)
One possible source of information for immigrant ancestors is the National Archives at Kew:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

three areas are especially interesting:

1)  Naturalisation Records:

IF yours ancestors did in fact get naturalised; not everyone did ... (see my posting below)
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/naturalisation/

2)  Ships lists

The NA have some lists of ships for emigration and for immigration:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/migration/

3)  Internment records:

a query from "wondering" - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=21729.0  - put me on to this one :

Many immigrants from "enemy" countries were interned on the outbreak of war(s)
My guess is, that any records of internment would be kept at the National Archives at Kew.
I entered "internment of aliens" in the search box and got 57 matches, but haven't got as far as going through them all. 

If anybody has tried any of these, please could you tell us about it here, especially internment and naturalisation - It would be interesting to know what information is actually in these documents, and whether they are worth looking for ...
Title: Re: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: Haltonview on Thursday 02 December 04 03:07 GMT (UK)
Hello Bob,

.There are records of internees in the archives at Kew and I understand from HO records that someone took a census in 1916 of all the internees in the IOM under 45. I sent a request to Kew but they said I would have to go in person to do the search.  Then I heard from a researcher there that the records had been lost in the archives. I got the POW # from a lady in the Anglo-German Family History Society so there must be info. somewhere in the UK that would give the background I am looking for.  I am waiting for more news from the Society.
 Incidentally, Ernest Oswin Ihle's name in the 1901 census was written as Oswin FHLE. He was 24 at that time. Took me ages to find that.
Once again, I appreciate your information and efforts.  I'm still searching and used the addresses you gave me but no luck yet.
Robin

Title: Re: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: Berlin-Bob on Saturday 01 January 05 14:09 GMT (UK)
I posted this info. on another thread, but I thought I would put it here, too, so I don't keep repeating myself.

The original question, was whether immigrants had to become naturalised.
 

As far as I know, naturalisation wasn't /isn't compulsory.  If you thought you would benefit from it, then you did it, otherwise, --- why bother ?

Nowadays naturalisation means social service benefits, travel documents, a passport, freedom from persecution (?) and all sorts of "goodies", so I suppose it would be more common.

As to when, this could happen any time. I don't know if there are any rules; in Germany the rule is (was ?) you have to live here for 5 years, have a job, etc, etc.

Then there is the other extreme:
My g-grandfather was (supposedly) german, but in the 1901 cenus he gives place of birth as Stepney. My guess is that he came over illegally or semi-legally  and didn't want to draw unnecessary attention to himself and his circumstances.
So there will be many immigrants who were never naturalised, but whose children were british by birth.

Hope this helps.
Title: nationality and naturalization document
Post by: Penninah on Thursday 06 January 05 14:29 GMT (UK)
Hi all!

I got my long awaited  nationality and naturalization documents from Kew today, so i shall share with you what i have on it!

I have 12 pages, some things are difficult to read.
Firstly i have an opening letter stamped home office 1908
Regarding my rellie Heinrich Friedrich yacob Wambach;

Herewith we enclose memorial for the grant of certificate of Naturalization to the above alien together with the neccesary Declarations in support and trust that you will be able to give the matter you favourable attention.
we are, sir,
you obediant servants,
WATERLOW BROTHERS & LAYTON LMT.
Then it is signed,  JH
the under-secretary of state,
home office,
SW

On the next page it actually says CLOSED UNTIL 2009 but they must have had a change of heart!
On this page it gives the full name of alien and of agent plus the minutes and a report which has a few dates next to it and says 'favourable'

Next comes the 'enquiry by the home office'
With a letter from the  Capt Chief Constable (police officer, Ipswich)
He goes on to say that my Wambach was a man of good character, respectable etc... basically not a man that finds himself on the wrong side of the law! he writes my rellies reason for naturalization is to gain a vote and that his wife and child are British Citizens.

Next page i have; The humble memorial of said rellie
having been born in Hamburg in the Empire of Germany on february 20th 1876 to parents; Friedrich Yacob Wambach and Dorathea Dabelstien both subjects of Germany.
Then has my rellies address in Ipswich, his age and occupation; basing merchant
Then that he is a married man with one child, then childs name and age
Then his place of buisness.
 
Next page; All of his addresses from 1901 to 1908
Then underneath that it says;
That your Memorialist seeks to obtain the rights and capacities of a natural born British subject from a desire to....... This is quite hard to work out but mostly is from a business point of view, he goes on to say that he wishes more independence for his business and to have a say in matters of government!
Then it is signed.
 
The next page is his solemn declaration of his intent to stay in this country and that all info he has given is correct etc etc...

The next few pages are all in relation to his referees, Their declarations of british birth and their acquaintance with my rellie.  Then they write about his Character personally and in business etc...
Then their names, occupations and addresses.

Finally the signatures of all 4 referee's

THE END!

I hope that was of some help!

Pen  ;)
Title: Re: nationality and naturalization document
Post by: Biker on Thursday 06 January 05 14:35 GMT (UK)
Pen, a great document to have and full of interesting info by the sounds of it.
Useful to know exactly what kind of info is included as I'm waiting for one to arrive in the post myself.

Regards
Jonathan
Title: Re: nationality and naturalization document
Post by: Berlin-Bob on Thursday 06 January 05 14:37 GMT (UK)
Pen,

thanks for putting this info on here.† It's what people have often been asking about, so it is a big help !


I just hope my g-grandfather did get naturalised, and not just settle down in this country !

Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: JLo on Friday 07 January 05 13:15 GMT (UK)
We had an 'interesting' experience with naturalisation papers that I thought I'd relate.† Our ancestor who, we believe, came from Berlin, Prussia was called Maurice Loewenthal, but was also known as Marcus, Moses and several other names.† He was born in 1831 and was married in London in 1861.† With all this in mind (and the variations on the spelling of Loewenthal) we looked in the National Archives for Naturalisation Papers.† †;D To our surprise we found some (Moses Loewenthal from Prussia, naturalised 1855), paid our hefty fee and waited with baited breath.†

Imagine the dissapointment to find it was the wrong one† :'( :'( He was far too old (born c1794), already married with six children and living in Edinburgh.†

So anyone who is related to THIS Moses Loewenthal let me know!!

Julie

PS The Papers I've got say much the same as Pen's, gives interesting background information - this Moses Loewenthal was 'by Trade a Tea Dealer and Importer of Turkey Sponges and practises the profession of Chiropodist'  :o
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: case on Friday 21 January 05 18:28 GMT (UK)
I went to Kew to look for my grandfather's internment record - he was interned in Liverpool in 1940 as an enemy alien.

I found my grandmother's and great aunt's classifications as C grade enemy aliens (i.e. low risk). They were not interned. However I was told that most of the records of those people actually interned had not been released to the public and I would not be able to have access to my grandfather's records.

There is a useful book about internment of German and Austrian enemy aliens in WW2 called "The internment of aliens" by F. lafitte. I have a copy published in 1940 but it is still in print.
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: russethouse on Saturday 26 March 05 15:07 GMT (UK)
Does searching the archive on line give any indication as to whether there are papers ?

 My great, great grandfather was a Philip Bender, wife Catharine Zimmer, by the time it got to the 1851 census they were entered as being born in Germany, British subjects.

Were the documents with all the info,(penninahs post) naturalisation papers or a 'denizen' and what would a 'denizen' show?

Sorry to be dim !

Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: Biker on Saturday 26 March 05 15:13 GMT (UK)
Hello and welcome!

As far as I remember, when I found the reference to my ggg grandmother's naturalisation online it just indicated the year of naturalisation, it didn't give much else at all.  I was lucky in that her married name was very unusual so I knew it must be her.

One thing I do remember, when you actually order them online there is an option - sorry can't remember the wording - but something like include all papers.† I chose that option, it was £10-12 I think.†

When I got the papers there were 8 pages of A5 including the naturalisation document itself, plus Scotland Yard reports, documents from the local Police - all really interesting stuff about family as well as testemonials from two witnesses (I guess neighbours or friends).

I'm not sure what you get if you say choose this 'this document only' or similar - perhaps just the naturalisation paper itself?

Hopefully somebody else who has ordered it more recently will be able to give more accurate info.

In my opinion it was a great find and well worth the money.

Best of luck
Jonathan
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: russethouse on Saturday 26 March 05 15:51 GMT (UK)
Thanks Jonathan, Maybe I am not using the National Archive search facility correctly ? I think I looked under HO45.......
It sounds like the papers you and penninahs have are the full scale naturalisation.

A trip to Kew doesn't fill me with glee, but I would dearly love to find out where abouts in Germany they came from.
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: Biker on Saturday 26 March 05 16:24 GMT (UK)
Hello,

I just searched from the main catalogue here http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/default.asp

I did have a quick look, using the full names and surnames only but didn't find anything† :(† †If you search under Zimmer for instance, you will see quite a few entries which are easy to spot, document title is quite obvious.

Perhaps they were not actually naturalised, sorry I'm not an expert on this subject.† Berlin Bob knows quite a bit and when he comes online perhaps he'll be able to help more.

You don't say when they were born.† Have you found them on other census entries?† Might be worth checking to see if any birthplace is mentioned that might be useful.

I should mention that the individual I found the naturalisation papers for was British, but married a German.  She was obliged, after he died, to re-claim her British citizenship which was I think especially enforced in the lead up to World War 1, so you will find that there are a lot of naturalisations around the 1914-15 period.

p.s. I still have an ancestor born in Germany who I'd also love to find out where in Germany he came from, but he only ever mentions Germany on all of the census entries.

Cheers
Jonathan

Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: Berlin-Bob on Saturday 26 March 05 17:50 GMT (UK)
Hi russethouse,

I just posted a new thread here, Immigrants and Aliens about a book I found recently in the library. 
Welll worth a read !

I believe denization means naturalised by the King's Writ and Naturalisation is through Bureacratic means, but it's all in the book, I only skimmed through it !

Bear in mind, that not everybody did get naturalised so you may not find anything.

Good luck,
Bob
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: russethouse on Saturday 26 March 05 18:03 GMT (UK)
Thanks - that was kind of you.

A kind lady on another board has looked up some entries for me on the 1841 & 51 census. So far the Zimmers are just marked with an F (for foreign) on the 41, but when Philip & Catharine appear together on the 51 they are born in Germany, British subject, So I think perhaps they became british subjects between 1842 (when they married) and 1851.
I don't think they would have been well off, (a shoemaker with eventually four children) and I wonder if they may have gone for the Denizen option rather than full naturalisation.

I have looked at the IGI for Germany but without knowing a little more its difficult to know if you have the right people.

Berlin - Bob, I think they have that book at the local Family Researh centre - I'll take a look.





Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: liverpool annie on Monday 28 March 05 20:18 BST (UK)

I want to vent! - I get so frustrated with Kew - you wade through all their searches -  only to find out you can only read them there -  and I can't get there........I suppose the next step is to try and find somebody else to do it ..... but I've just spent a couple of hours -  feeling like  I'm getting somewhere
 and then boom.....!!!! - Thank's for listening -  I know I'm not the only one...... I'll just have to look up somebody else :)
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: Haltonview on Tuesday 05 April 05 20:04 BST (UK)

I want to vent! - I get so frustrated with Kew - you wade through all their searches -  only to find out you can only read them there -  and I can't get there........I suppose the next step is to try and find somebody else to do it ..... but I've just spent a couple of hours -  feeling like  I'm getting somewhere
 and then boom.....!!!! - Thank's for listening -  I know I'm not the only one...... I'll just have to look up somebody else :)
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: Haltonview on Tuesday 05 April 05 20:09 BST (UK)

I want to vent! - I get so frustrated with Kew - you wade through all their searches -  only to find out you can only read them there -  and I can't get there........I suppose the next step is to try and find somebody else to do it ..... but I've just spent a couple of hours -  feeling like  I'm getting somewhere
 and then boom.....!!!! - Thank's for listening -  I know I'm not the only one...... I'll just have to look up somebody else :)
Hello Bob,

.There are records of internees in the archives at Kew and I understand from HO records that someone took a census in 1916 of all the internees in the IOM under 45. I sent a request to Kew but they said I would have to go in person to do the search. Then I heard from a researcher there that the records had been lost in the archives. I got the POW # from a lady in the Anglo-German Family History Society so there must be info. somewhere in the UK that would give the background I am looking for. I am waiting for more news from the Society.
 Incidentally, Ernest Oswin Ihle's name in the 1901 census was written as Oswin FHLE. He was 24 at that time. Took me ages to find that.
Once again, I appreciate your information and efforts. I'm still searching and used the addresses you gave me but no luck yet.
Robin



I want to vent! - I get so frustrated with Kew - you wade through all their searches - only to find out you can only read them there - and I can't get there........I suppose the next step is to try and find somebody else to do it ..... but I've just spent a couple of hours - feeling like I'm getting somewhere
 and then boom.....!!!! - Thank's for listening - I know I'm not the only one...... I'll just have to look up somebody else :)
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: Berlin-Bob on Saturday 11 June 05 17:10 BST (UK)
Just found this "Research Guide" at the TNA site Kew

long-link-to-research-guide (http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ecatalogue%2Enationalarchives%2Egov%2Euk%2Fleaflets%2Fri2156%2Ehtm&lBack=-1)

Looks useful !

Bob
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: Happy Nick on Saturday 18 June 05 09:19 BST (UK)
I've got a query regarding the National Archives website.  I'm trying to find out more about Charles Nicolas D'Aubusson de la Feuillade who came to London from France sometime between 1753 and 1783.  I've done an online search and there's no trace - does this mean that he definitely didn't adopt UK nationality and I should stop looking?

Many thanks,

Nick
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: Berlin-Bob on Saturday 18 June 05 10:33 BST (UK)
Hi Nick,

Welcome to RootsChat.

AS far as I know, if he was naturalised, then he should be on TNA, but... it wouldn' be the first time that "should be" doesn't mean "is"  :(

He may not have been naturalised, especially if it didn't mean any advantages for him.

Check out the Book-Link on the "Immigrants Resources", board:
BOOK: Immigration and Aliens: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,45248.0.html
it is a very comprehensive description of all aspects of Immigrants, Alien, Naturalisation and the TNA.

and the link: LINK: Naturalisation Notices in "The London Gazette"
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,48920.0.html


Good luck,
Bob
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: kaysloon on Thursday 23 June 05 19:18 BST (UK)
Hi B.Bob
How I wished I had read these messages sooner!!! I have been to Greece a couple of times  to try and find out when my gt.gt.grandfather came to UK. Now with thanks to one of your links,  I know, well at least I know when he got his nationalization. THANKYOU     :-*
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: sussexgirl on Sunday 21 August 05 21:07 BST (UK)
My mother came to England in 1930 from Austria, aged 20.  As I understand it she was 'naturalised' when she married my English father in 1837.  She was lucky and was not interned during the war. 

Do you think there would be any records/documents of her arrival and subsequent movements until marriage? 

Any thoughts gratefully received... :)

Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: Berlin-Bob on Sunday 21 August 05 21:15 BST (UK)
Hi sussexgirl,

my relatives were refugees, so their situation was a bit different (as enemy aliens they definitely had to be registered). I don't know about peace-time registration but I found a book about Alien Registration in the library, from the TNA in KEW.

Check the link
BOOK: Immigration and Aliens: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,45248.0.html

with luck you can order it from your library.

Good luck,
Bob
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: loo on Sunday 02 October 05 06:21 BST (UK)
I have moved my bibliography on WW1 internments to a separate thread so that it will be more accessible and easier for me to find when i want to update it, which I will continue to do. 

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=112434.new#new

Cheers!
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: Berlin-Bob on Sunday 02 October 05 07:27 BST (UK)
Hi Loo,

A very warm Welcome to RootsChat,  and what a marvellous present for us !

This is great information for anybody with "alien" ancestors, so on behalf of all of us, Thank you !

Bob
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: loo on Sunday 02 October 05 08:01 BST (UK)
You're most welcome.
If anyone can help me find any record after the beginning of WWi for Peter KREIN, born Germany, settled in England before 1901, who was interned somewhere in Britain, I'd be thrilled.  In early 1914 he was a 48-year-old master baker living in Camden.  There is no record of him at Isle of Man; and Kew is thousands of miles and a big puddle of salty water away, alas.  Perhaps I'll find him somewhere in my own bibliography, once I have time to read it all! 
So much research, so little time!
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: loo on Sunday 02 October 05 08:03 BST (UK)
P.S.  One of the archivists at Kew told me by email that just because it says "naturalised" on the census doesn't necessarily mean that it's true.
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Friday 07 October 05 09:22 BST (UK)
Loo,
I know this is not going to further your individual research, but I've recently read a book entitled:"All Quiet on the Home Front" by Richard van Emden and Steve Humphries (pub. by Headline in 2003), which is an oral history of life in Britain during WW1.  Chapter 3: "The Enemy Within" deals with how the lives of "aliens" were affected...
..."On the outbreak of war, there were around 53,000 Germans living in Britain, with many more born of German parents but who classed themselves as thoroughly British, living, in almost every way, wholly British lives with the exception of their German names.  Surprisingly, Germans amounted to the third largest immigrant group in Britain, behind the Irish and the Jews.  They were well-known and often well-respected members of the local community: they were pork butchers, hoteliers, governesses and teachers, barbers, waiters, and were resident in almost every part of the country, although most were found in London, the Midlands and the North-East..."
There are 27 fascinating pages about how inexorably the tide of popular public opinion turned against them...
Keith
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: loo on Tuesday 11 October 05 05:55 BST (UK)
Another interesting resource.  Yes, I was aware of this kind of information, although not this source.  There are many stories of heartbreak to be found.
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: proteantime on Tuesday 13 December 05 20:31 GMT (UK)
 :-*

Season's greetings!

I wanted to share the information that I have received from the Librarian at the Manchester Police Museum, who answered a request I made to see if there were documents regarding enemy aliens in their collection.

He advised me that the documents for that area were destroyed by fire so unfortunately that's another dead end for me.  I'm still trying to get my head around the details of this issue, eg. Were naturalised British Citizens still interned or registered as enemy aliens, et.

Also in relation the question of denization and naturalisation, there is a great blurb about it at:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/familyhistory/gallery4/immigrants.htm

I quote:

A naturalised British subject has the same status as a person who was born in Britain, whereas a person granted denization under Letters Patent by the Crown left the person liable to pay double taxes, unable to vote or inherit freehold land, as if he or she were still an alien. The nominal indexes relate to naturalisations by private act of parliament from about 1400 until 1900.

I have found with my research that jewish german immigrants had initially applied for denization and then at a later date become naturalised.

Also that when naturalised, a ceremony was held where the participants swore an oath of allegiance to the Monarch of the time.  A search of the London Gazettes online (using the naturalisation date as a rough guide) has been invaluable for confirming addresses of the people I was searching for also.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/

Hope this helps someone in some way.

best wishes
Kirsten
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Tuesday 13 December 05 20:42 GMT (UK)
Kirsten,
Thanks so much for that - it all made very interesting reading indeed!
Keith
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: loo on Wednesday 14 December 05 04:47 GMT (UK)
Kirsten, I have some specific information on what happened to the spouses etc. in WW1.  Let me know if you want more.  Spouses were definitely considered enemy aliens as well, even if British born; they were not normally interned, however;  they had to avoid restricted areas in terms of geography;  they were given some sort of pittance of financial allowance, if they applied for it;  spouses were prohibited from travelling more than 5 miles from their homes without registering with the police both coming and going on every trip, which often interfered with employment opportunities, should they ever be offered any;  there is evidence that there were indeed prosecutions for exceeding the 5-mile limit.
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: proteantime on Wednesday 14 December 05 07:06 GMT (UK)
Thanks.

It seems three generations suffered in one way or another simply by virtue of the circumstances of their birth.  First the generation of the immigrants who left their home countries (in many cases because of religious or socio-economic persecution), their children who suffered with the stigma in the first world war and subsequently another generation as their children felt the same stigma in the second world war.

It is hardly surprising that although British born and educated and contributing to the societies they lived in, that these families often changed their names.

You mention the British-born wives were "registered" and their movements limited.  Do you know if the British-born children would have been under the same restrictions?

I as specifically as I have hit a brick wall with an entire branch of my tree just "vanishing" after WWI.  I cannot even find death records for any of them.  I wonder what the statistics were for British Immigrants who chose then to emigrate to the United States during this time to move even further away from the crisis of nationality.

Many immigrants from Europe in the nineteenth century had initially travelled to Liverpool and Manchester on their way to the United States and stayed as their economic opportunities turned out for the better in England.  I'm stabbing in the dark here, but it's possible that if families had relatives who had continued on and settled in the U.S. then perhaps they joined them at a later stage.

Thanks again
Kirsten
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: loo on Wednesday 14 December 05 18:15 GMT (UK)
I have been wondering the very same thing about what happened to these people.† I too can find no death record for my internee, Peter KREIN;† he simply disappears.† I have checked all through 1837online up to where he would not have been living any longer, and cannot find him;† he was older than many - almost 50 when WW1 began - so I wouldn't have thought he would have had much stamina or ambition for starting over in America, especially considering all that he'd been through already, including being widowed twice and losing some children.† It's also worth checking with the Commonwealth War Graves Commission for a death;† they do not list the internees on their website, but they do have records, as they come more or less under the category of POWs - IF they died while interned;† I wrote to them, but they did not have my man.† In my case, he also had a young English-born son, and I can't find him either;† he didn't die young, but I find him nowhere.
To answer your question specifically, I am not aware of the British-born children being labelled enemy aliens, perhaps simply because they were children and were not capable of aiding and abetting the enemy, so not considered a threat.† I guess a spouse was seen to be subject to direction by her husband, since it was usually a husband who was interned - the vast majority of German immigrants had been single males in the 19thC.
Ultimately, the Red Cross archives in Geneva are the place to look apparently, because these camps and internees were monitored and helped by Red Cross.† but I'm not sure if access is allowed;† it might be that you have to pay their researchers.† It would be expensive, as I read that their archives are in a mess.
Also, the Anglo-German Family History Society has some lists, but I have not yet seen them.
You're quite right that at least 3 generations were affected.† I think more, actually, because it messed up the future family dynamics as well, which I can demonstrate in my own situation.†
I live in Canada.† Interestingly, a few weeks ago, the Canadian government came close to apologizing to the Italians whom it interned.† They won't actually apologize, because that would make them legally liable, but they came as close as they could.† Someone tell me if I'm wrong, but it's my sense that the "climate" in Britain wouldn't allow that right now.
If you are living in a large centre with good libraries, please check out my bibliography on the subject (link is earlier on this thread).† The book by Bird documents the fact that they were forbidden to change their names, for example.† Anything by Panayi is particularly well researched.
I should also mention, in case you didn't know, that a large number of internees were deported after WW1.  I have some info on that if you want, but not names.  They were sent back to the continent.
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: Berlin-Bob on Wednesday 14 December 05 18:42 GMT (UK)
There is a fascinating book from the National Archives about Aliens and Immigrants.  see this link
Topic: BOOK: Immigration and Aliens
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,45248.0.html
Quote
One VERY interesting fact: before 1905 there were almost NO controls for entering and staying in the UK.
The first Aliens Act was passed in 1905, but it wasn't till 1914 that alien registration became mandatory !

And I know from first-hand knowledge (my family) that "enemy" aliens had to be registered for WW 2

See this thread
Topic: Aliens Order. 1920 Cert. of Registration
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,40150.0.html
with its link to this one:
Topic: My Family ARE Aliens .... TRUE !
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,40149.0.html

This topic also has a link to a page on my website, where I have transcribed my Grandmother's registration book.  This confirms how she had to report to the police station any changes of address, employment, and to report any travels outside her area, with details of where, to whom, and for how long. So much so, that it is actually a potted biography (of these aspects) of her life from 1939-1962.

Bob
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: loo on Wednesday 14 December 05 19:07 GMT (UK)
There is a fascinating book from the National Archives about Aliens and Immigrants.† see this link
Topic: BOOK: Immigration and Aliens
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,45248.0.html

I have added your recommendation to my bibliography.† I had read it, but didn't think to include it before.† thanks for the reminder.
L
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: Chelsea2 on Tuesday 10 January 06 23:12 GMT (UK)
Hallo - can I add something to this interesting topic.  My gg grandfather Johannes Von der Wege came to England and married Anna Kraft in 1862.  The had a daughter Anna and a couple of other children, both of whom died.   Johannes remarried and had more children.   Anna married Robert Mallett in London and had my grandmother and her two sisters. 

Children from his second wife - Elizabeth Woolston he had William and Rose Elizabeth.  Rose Elizabeth married Edward Heape and I have just discovered that William married in 1913 Alice Annie Russell in St Pauls Bethnal Green.  By now the name has changed to Fonderway.  Someone did look in the internment records in Kew and found that William had been interned.  I now wonder what happened to his wife and also Rose Elizabeth and her husband.  I know my Grandmother had a visit from the police and they wanted to take her away - her husband was away in France fighting the Germans!!

I have been to Germany and been to the village where Johannes was born.  It is probably exactly the same now as it was then.  There is also a family there with the same name who made us most welcome and we had a wonderful week with them. 

Does anybody know of anyone who researches in Kew?  I cannot get there and cannot lay my hands on the piece of paper sent to me.  I really would like to find out what happened to William.

Chelsea
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: proteantime on Wednesday 11 January 06 10:00 GMT (UK)
 :)

Hi,

an update:

someone with a fantastic reference on the Times Newspaper managed to find references for the death of Siegmund's wife Adele, and the subsequent social histories of the children.  These newspaper items included births, deaths and marriages as well as graduations from Oxford University and entrance to legal positions in the Inner and Middle Temple.

Without adding a burden to the person who was able to help me, I would suggest that The Times is an excellent reference and perhaps there may be a copy in Canada for you and for others in England, perhaps at your local library.

The lady with the reference answered a post I made here on Rootschat and truly solved what was the mystery of a lifetime (well five lifetimes really!lol).

Just goes to show.....This community really is the most generous and altruistic online.

*** A quick footnote for those in the UK or who have access to BB2:  Next Wednesday 18 January 2006, a new series of "Who Do You Think You Are?" begins (check your local time listings) starring celebrities such as Steven Fry and Jane Horrocks (Little Voice), searching for their ancestors.

Warmest wishes
Kirsten
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: proteantime on Wednesday 11 January 06 14:06 GMT (UK)
CORRECTION!!!  It actually starts tonight January 11!

*** A quick footnote for those in the UK or who have access to BB2:  Next Wednesday 18 January 2006, a new series of "Who Do You Think You Are?" begins (check your local time listings) starring celebrities such as Steven Fry and Jane Horrocks (Little Voice), searching for their ancestors.
Title: naturisation
Post by: sarah99 on Wednesday 15 February 06 19:53 GMT (UK)
I've just been having a look through the national archive site and I'm excited to discover that I can order the naturalisation papers of a Hungarian ancestor  from 1856. before I go ahead and order them could anyone give me an idea of the sort of information it might contain. For example, am I likely to discover the town/village of origin?

Thanks in anticipation
Sarah

Moderator Comment:  topics merged
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: Berlin-Bob on Wednesday 15 February 06 20:01 GMT (UK)
Hi Sarah,

jump to the beginning of this thread for some more details of
what can be found on naturalisation papers

Bob
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: liverpool annie on Wednesday 15 February 06 20:12 GMT (UK)

Hi Sarah!

This subject has been brought up before and I thought maybe you might like to look this over!!

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,130042.0.html

Good Luck with the papers - I'm sure you'll be happy with them!!

Annie† :) :)

That Berlin Bob - just loves make me think I'm crazy!!† ignore this post!!† :P :P :P
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: sarah99 on Wednesday 15 February 06 23:47 GMT (UK)
Annie and Bob

Thanks so much - I will go ahead and I can't wait to get the information back.

Regards
Sarah
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: loo on Thursday 16 February 06 21:59 GMT (UK)
I have one from 1872, but it did not tell me the person's parents names or where exactly he had come from, unfortunately.  It was still interesting though.  It does give his signature, and the names and addresses and signatures of those who endorsed his application.
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: rayel on Sunday 08 July 07 15:08 BST (UK)
could some one please please help me i keep looking at the national archives for naturalisation papers for my grt grandad but i must be looking in the wrong place where do i look is there anywhere to type in his name which was moses morris or moses ackerman born russia 1848 i would appreciate any help chears
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: Berlin-Bob on Sunday 08 July 07 16:03 BST (UK)
Hi Rayel,

go to the National Archives Catalogue
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/default.asp?j=1

click on "Search the Catalogue"

Enter ackerman and click on "search"

You will get a table of results; you need the catalogue HO for Naturalisation
Quote
HO      Records created or inherited by the Home Office, Ministry of Home Security, and related bodies            11

Click on the "11"

I can see a Max Ackerman, but no Moses

Bob
Title: Re: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW:
Post by: loo on Monday 09 July 07 05:46 BST (UK)
Max is another quasi-synonym for Moses etc. but the one to which Bob refers was born in Germany, it says, and the naturalization was in 1906, so probably not yours.  Was living in Southampton.

The majority of naturalizations from that far back are not to be found in the archives, unfortunately.  The records just don't exist.  I have 5 people of interest, for example, but only one of them has a naturalisation record at the archives.