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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: Hawkshaw on Sunday 19 February 06 22:13 GMT (UK)
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My Grandad, John Corbett was born in or around Mitchelstown in about 1903/4.
He had a brother Michael and two sisters that I know of.
Does anyone know of the family please? My Grandad moved to England in the 1920s.
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Hi
I've already sent you a message, but this site is also very interesting:
http://www.corkancestors.com/Mitchelstown.htm
Mags
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Hmmm... sounds like my grandfather's brother. The family lived in Ballykearney, just SW of Mitchelstown.
Father: Michael Corbett b1860/1
Mother: Bridget (ne Sweeney) b1866/7
Children:
Maggie b???
Ellen b1901/2
John b1902/3
James b1904/5
Bridget b1905/6
Michael b???
Billy b1908/9
Joe b1909
Ted b1912
Does this seem to match?
Pete
P.S. I know it's been a long time since you posted, but, hey...
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Hello Pete,
They could well be my ancestors - thank you so much for replying. I'll check with my Uncle to see if any of those names are Grandad's brothers and sisters and get back to you asap. Many thanks again,
Ann Blackburn (nee Corbett).
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this looks like it could be the family on the 1911 census :
http://www.rootschat.com/links/06xk/
Shane
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I've just contacted my Uncle - your line isn't my one, Pete, but I have just found my line through the 1911 Census records, the link to which you kindly posted, Shane. This is it, with my Grandad, John, there:
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Kilphelan/Flemingstown/438633/
What a breakthrough!
Pete - could your line be cousins of mine?
Ann.
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Hi Ann,
Shane's original link is my Corbetts:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Mitchelstown/Ballykearney/439527/
I was keeping my fingers crossed that your John was here too. It's a pity he's not, but it's great that you've managed to find the right John Corbett anyway!
Regarding a possible link - A search for Corbetts in the National Archives of Ireland website's 1911 Census shows 266 in the whole of Co.Cork, 32 in the Mitchelstown DED, and only 9 (all of whom are your Corbetts) in the Kilphelan DED.
- Ballykearney's about half-way between Mitchelstown and Flemingstown.
- Your GGF Patrick's 42 and my GGF Michael's 50.
- Both families are RC.
So it's definitely possible (but by no means certain) that Patrick and Michael were brothers.
I know (from Michael and Bridget's marriage record) that my GGF's father was also called Michael.
So if you find Patrick and Ellen's marriage record... ?
From my experience online records for Mitchelstown are few and far between. Unless anybody has other ideas, I'd suggest the IFHF's Cork (NorthEast) site, run by the Mallow Heritage Centre:
http://corknortheast.brsgenealogy.com/index.php
Unfortunately it's pay-per-view (although with a bit of patience the free search can yield interesting leads). Check the "Sources" link on that page first so you know what records you're searching!
Cheers,
Pete
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Hi Ann,
I've had a quick check on the IFHF MHC site that I mentioned (only using the free search).
The 1901 census shows five Corbetts living in the Kilphelan DED
- two adults aged between 26 and 34 named Ellen and Patrick.
- three children aged between 0 and 8, named Ellen, Margaret and Michael.
No sign of a Patrick Corbett marriage record between 1883 and 1897.
There's also a couple of RC baptism records from the Glanworth RC parish:
- Michael Corbett baptism 1898
- Margaret Corbett baptism 1896
- Ellen Corbett baptism 1894
Glanworth is SW of Mitchelstown, here's a GoogleMaps link:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=glanworth&sll=52.132698,-8.280001&sspn=0.006217,0.019119&ie=UTF8&ll=52.186931,-8.358536&spn=0.198699,0.611801&z=11
Hope this helps,
Pete
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Thanks so much, Pete.
Yes, I couldn't find the marriage record either, and that is the key to finding out who Patrick's father is, isn't it?
Those records that you listed must be my people, as the dates fit so well.
What would be the next step in trying to find a marriage record, Pete? Did you find your Great Grandparents' marriage record from that site?
I might be able to get over to Co. Cork again in October and I could visit any records offices if necessary.
By the way, my Uncle spent some time at the homestead (which must have been Flemingstown) during the 2nd World War (he was born in London,as was my father). He said that his Grandmother (Ellen) was very strict indeed. His Grandfather (Patrick) had died by that time.
My Grandad (John) was a freedom fighter in Ireland and also ended up fighting in the 2nd World War, as he had moved to England by that stage. He had medals for both!
Are you based in Ireland or England? I am in Norwich but am always going over to Ireland to visit my mother.
Thanks again,
Ann.
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There is a baptism record for Patrick Corbett in each of 1868, 1869 and 1870. Any one of those could be my Great Grandfather. Hmmmm.....
Only the 1868 is for Glanworth though, I think that is worth a punt!
Ann.
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Hi Ann,
I don't think the 1901 census transcription will tell you anything new, but I'd agree - 99% certain it's your family (I'm NEVER 100% certain! ;) ). Maybe when you're in Ireland you could look at the original if you're near the National Archives of Ireland - Dublin I think?
A marriage record would definitely be the easiest way to find Patrick's fathers name, but the 1868 baptism record you mention could just strike gold, considering the scarcity of Corbetts in Glanworth! And if the father turns out to be Michael then the chance of a connection is stronger. There were 4 other Corbett baptisms in Glanworth RC between 1860 and 1868 - Michael (1860), Michael (1861), Johanna (1863) and William (1865). The Michael Corbett on my 1911 census was aged 50...
You know that Patrick and Ellen were married in 1892/3 (from the 1911 census). Since Ellen (the eldest living child) was baptised in 1894 I think it's most likely that they were married in the same place, i.e. Glanworth RC parish. Maybe the Glanworth marriage register simply isn't online, or doesnt cover 1892/3? IFHF MHC should be correcting their Sources page soon - it doesn't currently list Glanworth RC parish!
On a whim I did a check for Patrick Corbett marriages in 1892/3 on the main IFHF site (all Ireland). It gives two possibilities - 1892 Co. Limerick, 1893 Co. Tipperary. As I said, I think these are unlikely, unless you know of a connection?
I was very lucky - I found marriage records for both sets of Irish grandparents at the IFHF online sites. If you're near Mallow then the Mallow Heritage Centre, which handles IFHF records for Co Cork NE, is based there so they may be worth a visit (never been there myself). They may give you some leads.
I'm actually in SE Asia! That's why I tend to do all my research on the internet, although I get back to England occasionally.
Cheers,
Pete
P.S. The 1911 census showed 10 children born alive, only 7 still living (all listed at that address). I rechecked, and there's two more Corbetts baptised in Glanworth RC parish between 1892 and 1911 - Michael (b1895) and Margaret (b1894). So they may be 2 of the 3 who died? Can't find a third though.
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I've only just noticed - Mitchelstown is almost smack on the point where Co Cork, Co Tipperary and Co Limerick meet! So if those 1892/3 Co Limerick/Co Tipperary Patrick Corbett marriages are near here, it's less of a long-shot - one of them may be the right one. The Mitchelstown RC parish actually extends into Co Limerick.
Unfortunately the Tipperary marriage appears to be in the north of the county, and the Limerick marriage doesn't appear to be in an RC parish. But don't take my word for it - I only did a cursory check.
Pete
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...and another stupid mistake I made! IFHF MHC does list Glanworth RC parish in its sources, but as "Ballindangan & Glanworth RC parish". They have birth and marriage records from 1836-1899. So if Patrick and Ellen were married in Glanworth RC parish in 1892/3 the records should be there.
Pete
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Hi
Can't see from this correspondance that anyone has had a look at the LDS site for the Irish BMD Indexes at
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#
Looks like there may be a few clues there.
HB
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Good call Hugo, I wasn't aware of that site.
I've had a quick look. The results give the equivalent of the information in the UK GRO indexes, correct? (i.e. for all BMD records - year, quarter, surname, given name(s), volume, page; plus for death records - age, estimated birth year; plus for birth records - mother's surnames)
I assume that due to the 1922 fires, most (all?) of the original BMD certificates were destroyed. So the reference in the Irish Civil Registration Indexes 1845-1958 is as far as we can go?
Thanks again,
Pete
P.S. Unfortunately their search facility still needs a bit of work (not surprising, as the site is still only a beta-test / pilot).
E.g. a search for surname "Corbett", place "Mitchelstown, Cork, Ireland" gives zero results. But taking out the "Mitchelstown" gives nearly 2000 including many civil marriage/death records for "Mitchelstown Registration District (Cork or Limerick, Ireland)".
I've already mentioned this to them under feedback.
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...I assume that due to the 1922 fires, most (all?) of the original BMD certificates were destroyed. So the reference in the Irish Civil Registration Indexes 1845-1958 is as far as we can go?
All Civil records are intact and you can order research certs from the GRO using the index details from the familysearch site. Full BMD registration stared in 1864. Non-Catholic marriages were recorded from 1845.
GRO webpage - www.groireland.ie
the details they require are :
Name
record type (e.g. birth)
registration district
year/quarter
volume
page
the other details listed on the index are familysearch/LDS references and do not apply to the GRO
Shane
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I've had a quick look. The results give the equivalent of the information in the UK GRO indexes, correct? (i.e. for all BMD records - year, quarter, surname, given name(s), volume, page; plus for death records - age, estimated birth year; plus for birth records - mother's surnames)
P.S. Unfortunately their search facility still needs a bit of work (not surprising, as the site is still only a beta-test / pilot).
E.g. a search for surname "Corbett", place "Mitchelstown, Cork, Ireland" gives zero results. But taking out the "Mitchelstown" gives nearly 2000 including many civil marriage/death records for "Mitchelstown Registration District (Cork or Limerick, Ireland)".
Shane has already explained that the civil registrations are complete.
As soon as the Pilot site was released we realised that there were certain ways of obtaining results that were more effective than others and there's a thread on search tips somewhere which I'll post a link to later.
Meanwhile, here's a sample-
Put "Corbett" in last name box and click 'search' (5,600 results for all Ireland)
Click 'place' and select 'Cork' (now down to 866 results)
From here there are several ways to go-
1. if looking for a particular event (say births in 1870s)- select 'birth' under 'events' and '1870-1879' under 'date'.
2. if looking for a death it is sometimes easier doing birth search (there might be 20 John Corbetts who died 1900-1910 but if you are looking for one born 1825 selecting 'birth' '1820-1829' might bring up only 1 or 2)
3. if trying to find all Corbetts in Mitchelstown registration district use your computer (on mine it's Edit then Find on toolbar) to scan down the page and then note each entry.
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Found the site which discusses searching LDS Pilot site-
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,355762.0.html
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Ann - I think I may have found the Irish GRO ref for Patrick Corbett and Ellen's marriage certificate. See later...
Aghadowey (whoever you may be!) and Shane - thanks soooo much! I was utterly convinced that the pre-1922 civil BMD certificates were irrevocably lost! I've checked the GRO Ireland site and the "How to successfully search the Irish BMD site?" topic (plus secondary topics mentioned there). The ins and outs of the search facility are a well-worn subject, eh? Happily forewarned is fore-armed, so a bit of patient searching could pay big dividends.
Back to Ann - this link http://www.rootschat.com/links/06z8/ should show you a familysearch.org results page showing all (and there's only 15) registered 1891-1894 Patrick Corbett marriages in the whole of Ireland.
There's one for 1893 in Mitchelstown registration district (Apr-Jun quarter, volume 4, page 350).
This one http://www.rootschat.com/links/06za/ was a bit of a wild stab (click the "Refine Search" to see the criteria) - I checked all the results that matched Mitchelstown registration district, 1893, Apr-Jun quarter. There's only one with volume 4, page 350 - Ellen Condon, on the 8th page of results.
Hopefully 1893 Marriage, Apr-Jun quarter, volume 4, page 350, Patrick Corbett/Ellen Condon could be the Irish GRO reference you're after. But be prepared for disappointment (just in case) - and maybe wait for Shane and/or aghadowey to comment in case I've missed something!
Fingers crossed...
Pete
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that Corbett/Condon match you found looks good to me - same index details for both names so it's very likely they married each other.
Shane
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Thanks so much Pete, Shane and Aghadowey - really helpful and productive.
Now, I've got the ref. for the marriage, what is the best way to access a copy of the certificate?
Many thanks again,
Ann.
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you can order certs form the GRO by post using those index details - www.groireland.ie
they are busy at the moment .. so expect a wait of up to 4 or 5 weeks
make sure to include the name, quarter/year, registration district, volume and page on your order form
Shane
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Thank you, Shane.
Pete - we'll be able to see then if our Great Grandfathers were brothers or not, won't we?
Ann.
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Expanding on what Shane said about http://www.groireland.ie/ , it appears that you need to click the "Apply For Cert" link (halfway down the red left-hand column). The "Certificate Application Form in English" that you can download is actually a Microsoft Word document, not a PDF as they state.
The thread mentioned earlier at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,355762.45.html about the LDS pilot site contains several hints and suggestions on how to fill in the Certificate Application Form. I'd suggest (but I haven't tried it yet) filling in "SECTION 2: Details of person whose marriage certificate is requested" as follows:
Surname/forename of both parties - obvious.
PPS Number - leave blank (Shane mentions in that other topic that it's a tax reference).
Date of marriage - "Year 1893, Apr-Jun Quarter"
Place of marriage - "Mitchelstown registration district, Volume 4, Page 350"
Good luck Ann!
Pete
P.S. Shane - is it two couples per page on the actual marriage register, same as the UK?
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P.S. Shane - is it two couples per page on the actual marriage register, same as the UK?
not certain if its two or more marriages to a page - but the same logic applies. A couple marrying each other will have to appear on the same page of the same volume.
It is theoretically possible that you could have a Patrick and and Ellen on the same page and them marrying different people around the same date .. but given the small number of potential matches in your search this is highly unlikely.
The marriage cert will give Patrick's residence, father name and occupation. By comparing the details you should be able to tell if you have found siblings .. and therefore a common Great Great Grandfather..
Shane
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(New topic started at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=417147 with this query - it shouldn't really have been here in the first place!)
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Hi Ann,
I've been off-line for several weeks, so I'm doing a bit of catch-up on topics I'm interested in.
Did you order the certificate? If so (and if it was the correct one) then was Patrick's father called Michael?
Pete
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Hello Pete,
Certificate duly applied for now. I've entered:
Patrick Corbett and Ellen Condon
Date of Marriage: April to June 1893 (Irish GRO reference)
Place of Marriage and denomination: Mitchelstown Roman Catholic.
Please let me know if I've entered anything incorrectly before I post it!
Thanks so much,
Ann.
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the details the GRO require are :
Name
record type (e.g. marriage)
registration district
year/quarter
volume
page
just a note that Mitchelstown is the registration district, not necessarily the exact location of the marriage.
Shane
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You've missed the vital bit!
Name = Patrick Corbett / Ellen Condon
record type = Marriage
registration district = Mitchelstown
year/quarter = 1893, Apr-Jun
volume = 4
page = 350
Since it's a civil certificate, I don't think you need the denomination (although there's no harm including it).
Also, make sure you're only ordering the 4 Euro "photocopy of an entry in the register" - no need to pay more! I have an email for GRO Ireland to confirm this is the correct thing to get (see PS)
Pete
P.S. Here's the reply from GRO Ireland - "Where an application includes the correct reference for an entry the €2.00 search fee is deducted from the cost making the cost of a full certifcate €8.00 and the cost of photocopy €4.00.
Photocopies contain exactly the same information as a full longform certificate, however, they cannot be used for legal purposes. "
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Thanks, Pete and Shane.
There's no section on the form to include the volume and page no., but I will write them underneath anyway. Also, there's no charge of 4 Euro that you can opt for - only 10 Euro. Now, the place I am writing to is the Civil Registration Office in Roscommon (I downloaded the form from an earlier link in this thread). Am I writing to the correct place? Is this the GRO that is being referred to on this thread? The form is entitled 'Application for Marriage Certificate'.
Thanks again - I will get there!
Ann.
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Roscommon is the correct GRO office for ordering certs by post - the address is on their website (http://www.groireland.ie/) :
General Register Office,
Government Offices,
Convent Road,
Roscommon.
The forms are not designed with historic certs in mind, so some of the sections are not relevent. Just ensure all the details mentioned earlier (name, year/qtr, reg. district , vol. , page) are entered, wherever you can fit them, along with your own details (credit card, name & address etc)
Shane
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Regarding cost - here's the email replies I had from GRO Ireland:
"The cost of full Cert. is 10Euro which includes search fee of 2Euro.
If you have already done the search and provide the ref. details you will only be charged 8Euro
The photocopy is 6euro and this is reduced to 4Euro when ref. details are provided"
"Where an application includes the correct reference for an entry the €2.00 search fee is deducted from the cost making the cost of a full certifcate €8.00 and the cost of photocopy €4.00.
Photocopies contain exactly the same information as a full longform certificate, however, they cannot be used for legal purposes. "
See also the GRO Ireland Fees page at http://www.groireland.ie/fees.htm.
I'm fairly certain you should be paying 4 Euros. But since I haven't ordered anything myself, maybe somebody who has could confirm?
Pete
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Hello Pete,
I've obtained the marriage cert of my Great grandparents at long last.
Patrick Corbett and Ellen Condon were married on 30th April, 1893 in the RC Chapel of Ballindangan. Patrick's father was Michael Corbett of Ballykiernly and Ellen's father was Michael Condon of Flemingstown.
Witnesses were Richard Johnson and Katie Sullivan.
Does this fit in with your family, Pete?
Ann.
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With your latest information I now think it's almost certain that my great grandfather and yours were brothers.
I Googled Ballykiernly, and this thread was the only hit. (Google suggests "Did you mean: Ballykinler?", but since that's in Co. Down I think it's unlikely). So my guess is that Ballykiernly = Ballykearney. The places that crop up in relation to our Corbett's (i.e. Mitchelstown, Ballykearney, Flemingstown, and Ballindangan) are less than 5 miles apart.
My great-grandparents (Michael Corbett and Bridget Sweeny) were married on 3 Feb 1894 somewhere in Mitchelstown (Parish?). The church is not identified - it's a transcribed record from IFHF. His address is given as Ballandangan, and his father's name as Michael Corbett. Bridget's from Mulberry (part of Mitchelstown now) and her father's Patrick. Witnesses were James Cusack and Catherine Keys.
Hopefully there's a small photo of my great grandfather attached, taken just after the end of WWII.
Pete
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That's a result then, Pete. We are distant cousins. Shall we combine our family trees and see where we can go from there? I'm hoping to visit the Ballindangan/Flemingstown area with my Uncle in the Summer as he knows where my Great Grandparents' home was, having stayed there during WW2.
This is great progress.
Regards,
Ann.
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My mother (sadly no longer with us) was also evacuated (from London) to stay with her relations in Ireland during WWII. Her time would probably have been split between Mallow and Ballykearney. She would have been very young - around 4 when the war ended. Maybe your uncle met her?
And you're more than welcome to incorporate the information I have on the Corbetts into your tree, but it's not much! I'm sending you a PM so you can contact me directly.
Pete
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When I posted on 23 August 2009 I hadn't realised that you can include the father's given name in an IFHF birth record search, so I've just rechecked:
The "...4 other Corbett baptisms in Glanworth RC between 1860 and 1868 - Michael (1860), Michael (1861), Johanna (1863) and William (1865)..." that I mentioned all have the father's name as Michael.
I also checked the "...baptism record for Patrick Corbett in each of 1868, 1869 and 1870...". As you said, only the 1868 one is in Glanworth. It's also the only one with a father's name of Michael.
My GGF Michael must be one of the two mentioned above, either 1860 or 1861, since they're the only two Michael Corbett births in Co Cork NE in 1860+-5 where the father is Michael (according to the IFHF database). So I've just used the 5 Euros I had left in my IFHF account to look at the 1861 Michael birth record - 8 Sep 1861, parents are Michael Corbett and Ellen Cusack, witnesses William O'Donnell and Mary O'Mara. No more info than that.
No luck with any Irish GRO references though. Michael 1860, Michael 1861 and Johanna 1863 are too early. I tried the LDS site, but the only Co. Cork Corbett births they have are in Kanturk DED.
I checked the Irish Times site for Glanworth RC baptism record access ( http://www.rootschat.com/links/08ly/ ), and it appears that its either a visit to the National Library of Ireland in Dublin to see the records on microfilm for free (film ref "Pos. 4996"), or commissioned research at the Mallow Heritage Centre (the IFHF site for Cork NE is run by them).
Personally, I'll probably wait till the 1901 Ireland census records come online (latest ETA is "before the end of June") and hope to find some connections there.
Pete
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Back in the mid 19th century, I now have confirmation that the following are definitely children of Michael Corbett and Ellen Cusac(k), born/baptised in the Mitchelstown area:
Michael Corbett (b1861) - confirmed on IFHF Cork NorthEast (Mallow Heritage Centre) site [see previous post]
William Corbett (b1865) - confirmed on LDS pilot site, " Ireland Births and Baptisms, 1620-1881"
Patrick Corbett (b1868) - confirmed on LDS pilot site, " Ireland Births and Baptisms, 1620-1881"
Mary Corbett (b1870) - confirmed onLDS pilot site, " Ireland Births and Baptisms, 1620-1881"
Margaret Corbett (b1872) - confirmed on LDS pilot site, " Ireland Births and Baptisms, 1620-1881"
IFHF Cork northeast site has promising search results for a probable Michael Corbett = Ellen Cusack marriage in Glanworth RC parish in 1859 (but not confirmed yet)
The 1901 census hasn't thrown up any new leads that I can see.
There are a couple of hundred Corbetts in Co Cork, including the Ballykearney, Mitchelstown and Flemingstown, Kilphelan families that we already know of, but that's it.
No likely leads on William, Mary or Margaret.
I presume that Mary and Margaret are likely to be married, and thus no longer Corbetts?
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This is another Corbett family. It was entered in error as Corbeth in the database. There is an Ellen in the family and they are still at that address.
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Mitchelstown/Coolyregan/1153075/
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This is another Corbett family. It was entered in error as Corbeth in the database. There is an Ellen in the family and they are still at that address.
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Mitchelstown/Coolyregan/1153075/
Thank you for this, Corracunna. I'll bear this family and address in mind. Pete - does this help you too?
Ann.
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Hi Ann, and thanks Corracunna,
It's no immediate help, but who knows...
The Margaret Corbeth (head of household) would be a generation older than the Margaret, Mary and William we're looking for (i.e. Michael and Patrick's siblings).
But there could be a link between this Margaret Corbeth's husband (who'd have been a Corbeth by birth) and our Michael Corbett (senior, who married Ellen Cusack).
Pete
P.S. To me it's 50/50 whether the handwritten surnames on the form are Corbeth or Corbett.
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Hello 9k_delaney30 (I hope you found your way to this thread!),
I wonder if the Margaret Corbeth/Corbett mentioned in the three previous posts is related to your Margaret Corbett, wife of William Burke? Or maybe even the same person?
Pete