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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: avm228 on Tuesday 21 February 06 18:21 GMT (UK)
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Dear All,
I am new here, and wondering whether anybody can help me trace the background of my 3x great grandfather John MacGregor who emigrated to the United States in 1869. I know from his Feb 1869 Dundee marriage certificate (to Mary Barnes of Kilmarnock) that he was qualified M.D. - he continued to practise as a physician in the US. The US censuses show that he was born in June 1831 somewhere in Scotland.
The marriage certificate tells me that John's father was also John McGregor, a farmer, deceased at the date of the marriage (26 Feb 1869). His mother was Mary McGregor nee Stirling, and it does not say that she was deceased. I cannot find the death of a Mary M(a)cGregor nee Stirling in the Scottish statutory deaths database - it may be that she too emigrated to the US but there is no obvious sign of her there either.
The most likely candidate in the 1861 census is a John McGregor, unmarried, 29, b Kirkmichael, Banffshire who is a medical attendant at some sort of medical establishment in Edinburgh. Does anybody here have any information as to who this John was? I don't want to be chasing after the wrong John - and IGI has a John McGregor baptised Kirkmichael Banff in May 1832, son of Alexander McGregor and Christina Macpherson and another in 1831 shown as being baptised to Donald McGregor & Elizabeth Petrie. It would be a big coincidence if either of those had become a doctor, but I'd love to know for sure whether or not the 1861 John is the right one!
Any information as to parents John M(a)cGregor and Mary nee Stirling would be greatly appreciated too. I have nothing at all on them other than their son's marriage certificate (which shows that the marriage was performed according to the forms of the U[nited] P[resbyterian] Church, so the family may have slipped under the Church of Scotland radar). There may have been a Helen or Helena M(a)cGregor in the family who appears as a witness at John's wedding to Mary Barnes, but the first name is very hard to read.
Many thanks in advance for any tips at all!
Anna
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Well. The IGI (http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true) lists two marriages of a John McGregor to a Mary Stirling; one is n Eastwood, Renfrewshire in 1816, followed by two children, both born in Eastwood. The other couple were married in Denny, Stirlingshire, in 1840, and had 6 children, including a John, but he was baptised on 1 June 1845 in Denny so cannot be the one aged 29 in the 1861 census. He would have been old enough to marry in 1869.
The 1841 census (http://freecen.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl) lists three John McGregors, aged respectively 9, 10 and 11, in Kirkmichael, Banffshire.
The 9-year-old is in the household of Alexander McGregor, 50, and Christiana McGregor, 45, and their children. This is the one you have already identified as the son of Alexander McGregor and Christina Macpherson.
The 10-year-old is living in the household of Margaret Fraser, 70, Robert Fraser, 35, and Ann Fraser, 30, at Glauchhan. I cannot identify this one from the IGI.
The 11-year-old is in the household of James Fleeman, 40 and Ann Fleeman, 26, and their children. Also there is Charles McGregor, 14. These two will be the sons of Alexander McGregor and Elspet Stuart, who had a Charles in 1826 and a John in 1830 among others.
The family of Donald McGregor and Elizabeth Petrie were born in Kirkmichael, Perthshire, not Kirkmichael, Banffshire. This is a completely different place. (There are 5 parishes in Scotland, all named Kirkmichael; one each in Ayrshire, Banffshire, Dumfries-shire, Perthshire, and Ross-shire - see http://www.abdnet.co.uk/genuki/BAN/Kirkmichael/index.html)
What was the age of your John according to his marriage certificate?
HTH
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Many thanks, Forfarian, for your very helpful reply, and especially for pointing me to FreeCEN - I hadn't realised it was so good on the early Scottish censuses. Thank you also for pointing out my error on the family from the "wrong" Kirkmichael. I see from FreeCEN that there is an intriguing John McGregor, college student, aged 19 in 1851 who is staying in Fyvie, Aberdeenshire with the family of a Donald McGregor b Kirkmichael, Banff. John's own birthplace is given as Cromdale, Inverness-shire, which my map suggests borders on the parish of Kirkmichael, Banff. I'm beginning to wonder if he was orphaned early on and could be the same John who was with the Frasers in 1841.
John was mysteriously inconsistent about his age. Here's what I've got from sources where I definitely know it's the right John (i.e. marriage and later):
Marriage certificate (Dundee, Feb 1869): M.D. aged 32
US 1870 census (Avoca, Nebraska Jul 1870): physician aged 31
US 1880 census (Yankton, Dakota Territory Jun 1880): physician aged 42
US 1900 census (Yankton, South Dakota Jun 1900): physician aged 68 DOB Jun 1831
US 1910 census (Yankton, South Dakota Apr 1910): physician aged 78
A handwritten family tree passed down to me from one of the American descendants has John's birthdate written in as 21 June 1831 (his parents not shown on tree), but the person who drew up the tree died 20 years ago so I don't know where he got that from. I am absolutely certain that the marriage certificate and the censuses all relate to the same person because his in-laws, named on the marriage certificate, emigrated at about the same time and father-in-law Robert Barnes was living with John and Mary in Yankton in 1880. John never moved away from Yankton and died there in 1918.
One thing I have noticed from looking at the censuses again is that in 1910 John lists the mother tongue of himself and his parents as Gaelic. I'm hoping this might help me narrow down the geographical areas of Scotland he might have come from (?)
Thank you again for your help.
Anna
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Yes, FreeCEN is quite good for 1841, and geting better all the time as more transcriptions go online.
That John in Fyvie is very interesting. I think I have come across that Donald MacGregor before. There was a Donald MacGregor born in 1822 in Kirkmichael, parents Malcolm MacGregor and Margaret Burgess. The parents moved from Croughly, Kirkmichael, to Bogniebrae, Forgue, Aberdeenshire between the 1841 and 1851 censuses. So I suspect that this Donald in Fyvie could be the same one. Malcolm MacGregor was born in Abernethy and Margaret Burgess in Cromdale, by the way.
And yes, Gaelic would have been spoken in Cromdale and Kirkmichael, Banffshire, in the 1830s. There would probably also be Gaelic speakers in the Perthshire and Ross-shire Kirkmichaels, but unlikely in Ayrshire or Dumfries-shire.
Your John certainly sems to have been uncertain about his age! The marriage certificate certainly seems to rule out the Denny one (son of Mary Stirling), but it also implies a birth date of 1836/7 rather than 1831.
So it may well be that the 19-year-old John in 1851 is the 29-year-old in 1861 and the 9-year-old in 1841, but how would one prove it?
If he studied at the University of Aberdeen, he should be listed in the Roll of Graduates, which might even give his father's name and something on his subsequent career. If he was at Edinburgh or Glasgow, you'd need to check with the university archives as there isn't a published list like the Aberdeen one. Unfortunately I do not have access to the Aberdeen one at the moment.
HTH
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It looks to me as though John lied about his age upon marriage and until his father-in-law died (sometime after 1880) and only then was able to come clean about the fact that he was 11 years older than his bride!
You have given me an idea about Aberdeen. I think I had written it off because it was only formally established as a university in 1860 - but I now see that it was an amalgamation of King's College and Marischal College, both of which had medical schools. (And then I'm thinking that would be consistent with the 1851 Fyvie entry for John McGregor - "student at college" rather than "university" but maybe I'm reading too much into that...).
Do you happen to know where or how I can consult the Roll of Graduates for Aberdeen or its predecessor colleges? (I'm in London, if that's of any relevance).
Thank you again for taking the trouble to give me such helpful input.
Anna
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Do you happen to know where or how I can consult the Roll of Graduates for Aberdeen or its predecessor colleges? (I'm in London, if that's of any relevance).
The British Library? It's a set of printed books, so I would imagine the BL would have one.
Failing that, there is a set in Aberdeen Public Library and presumably the University also has copies. You could try contacting the University archives. (Elgin Library has a set but it is in storage and inaccessible at present.)
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Forfarian, you were absolutely right about the British Library - it had the roll not only for Aberdeen itself but also for both predecessor colleges (though incomplete). John MacGregor of Cromdale graduated from King's College Aberdeeb with his first degree in 1850 and I believe that is where he is likely to have studied for his M.D. thereafter. It now remains for me to check the medical registers to make sure his subsequent career ties in appropriately.
Thank you, again, for all your help.
Anna
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Glad it was useful :)
By the way, I would not read anything into the use of the word 'college' as opposed to 'university'.
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By the way, I would not read anything into the use of the word 'college' as opposed to 'university'.
Absolutely - no, it was just that prior to this exchange with you I had drawn a blank at all the Scottish *universities*, and it hadn't previously occurred to me that there were colleges with medical schools too!
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Absolutely - no, it was just that prior to this exchange with you I had drawn a blank at all the Scottish *universities*
The University of Aberdeen was formed by the amalgamation of Kings College and Marischal College in 1494. There were celebrations in 1994 to mark the 500th anniversary of its founding, so obviously it thinks that it was a university long before the early 19th century :)
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Hi there,
Just belatedly picked up this thread. Sorry!
I have a Margaret MacGregor born Kirkmichael Banff 1778 to John MacGregor and Ann Stuart.
Margaret married my x5 great Grandfather who lived in Drumblade nr. Huntly they had a large farm called Dukewell which is still there. She died in 1855 (so she had one of those super large death certificates). It says that she was 50 years in Drumblade. The undertaker was one of her sons.. William Bagrie??
Interestingly quite a number of my family thereafter were (and indeed still are Doctors.
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Hi,
I have been referred to this thread as Malcolm McGregor = Margaret Burges were my 3x gt grandparents. I have been unable to identify John McGregor, visitor to Donald McGregor in 1851 as a family member. Has any progress been made?
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Hmmm.
I see that Robert Macgregor and Elizabeth Stuart had a son John born 2 and baptised 12 April 1831 in Cromdale Inverallan and Advie.
This John would have had his 10th birthday by the date of the 1841 census, but would not quite have had his 20th by the date of the 1851 census, so he should show up there as aged 19.
In the 1841 census they were all at Lower Balmenach, Cromdale, with John aged 10. In the 1851 the parents and some of the siblings were at Lower Balmenach, but John was not.
Robert's age in 1851 was given as 58 and his birthplace as Kirkmichael, Banffshire. So he would have been born 1792/3 if the age in 1851 is accurate.
The IGI doesn't list Robert's baptism, but his death certificate says that his parents were John Macgregor, farmer and meal miller, and Janet Stewart. So Robert seems to have been Malcolm's brother, making John Macgregor the first cousin of Donald Macgregor.
Does this look as if it makes sense?
It doesn't help with Margaret Macgregor who married the Bagrie, unless Ann on her death certificate is an error for Janet.
On the other hand there is a baptism of Margaret, daughter of John Macgregor and Ann Stuart, in Aberlour on 19 July 1779, so there was indeed a John Macgregor with wife Ann Stuart at the same time as John Macgregor and Janet Stewart.
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John s/o Robert McGregor and Elizabeth Stuart became the Rev John McGregor :
Fasti Ecclesiae Scotannae, New Vol 7
Presb. of Chanonry - Knockbain:
"JOHN MACGREGOR, born 1832, son of Robert M., farmer, Cromdale, and Elizabeth Stuart; educated at King's College, Aberdeen; M.A. (March 1854); became missionary in Strathglass in 1859; ord, to Kinlochluichart, 13th May 1861; pres. by the Duchess of Sutherland, Countess of Cromartie; adm. (assistant and successor) 24th Dec 1868; died 4th May 1892. He marr. 29th July 1862, Isabella Kennedy (died 26th April 1914), daugh. of John Noble, min. of Fodderty, and had issue - John Bingham Baring, born 8th Aug. 1863, died abroad; Elizabeth Adeline, born 28th April 1866; Annie Mary, born 4th July 1868, died 16th Dec. 1883."
Robert and Malcolm were brothers. Their sister Margaret remained unmarried as housekeeper to their brother james at Balmenach. Still a mystery then.
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I have to chime in here as I'm looking for my GGG Grandfather John McGregor. Here's what I know:
John McGregor (13 Oct 1772-21 Aug 1865) married Margaret Cameron.
They had three daughters, I think: Mary, Anny and Elisabeth. Mary married Angus McLean in Delvorar Parish, Tomintoul 19 Mar 1835. In 1836 Angus, Mary and Margaret (and Mary's baby Margaret) emigrated to New York. John McGregor wrote many letters to Mary--he often mentions Angus's brother John McLean, a gamekeeper. And Angus's sister Margaret McLean. And John's brother Robert McGregor (29 Jul 1781-26 July 1846) was mentioned as dying at Laggan of Auchindoun. John lived at Keppoch in Tomintoul, sometime at Laggan, in 1840 at Doune of Rothiemurchus.
What I'm looking for are descendants of these McLeans, McGregors or Camerons that might still be around Tomintoul. And possible pedigree for John--his parents were James McGregor & Margaret Riach.
Cordially,
Jeff
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I have to chime in here as I'm looking for my GGG Grandfather John McGregor. Here's what I know:
John McGregor (13 Oct 1772-21 Aug 1865) married Margaret Cameron.
They had three daughters, I think: Mary, Anny and Elisabeth. Mary married Angus McLean in Delvorar Parish, Tomintoul 19 Mar 1835. In 1836 Angus, Mary and Margaret (and Mary's baby Margaret) emigrated to New York. John McGregor wrote many letters to Mary--he often mentions Angus's brother John McLean, a gamekeeper. And Angus's sister Margaret McLean. And John's brother Robert McGregor (29 Jul 1781-26 July 1846) was mentioned as dying at Laggan of Auchindoun. John lived at Keppoch in Tomintoul, sometime at Laggan, in 1840 at Doune of Rothiemurchus.
What I'm looking for are descendants of these McLeans, McGregors or Camerons that might still be around Tomintoul. And possible pedigree for John--his parents were James McGregor & Margaret Riach.
Cordially,
Jeff
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I wish to email you about the John McGregor and Margaret Cameron. I am new and it says not to put my email on the site..
I am interested in the Mary that married Angus and went to New York. My own line of McGregor was at Little falls New York. I have a few of Mary and Angus kids and where they went. I think one line came to Ontario. Thanks in advance, Annie
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Hi Annie--
Subsequent research seems to suggest that John McGregor and Margaret Cameron didn't actually marry. Mary McGregor McLean was likely born out of wedlock--John had three other daughters with two other women. Complicated. I know for sure that Angus McLean and Mary's kids dispersed around the US--none of them, I think, got to Canada except briefly. Rev. John McLean went to Ohio: Alexander McLean stayed in upstate New York, as did their sisters Christine and Margaret. Rev Robert McLean and Rev. Eneas McLean traveled widely, evangelizing.
My GGF Rev. Robert's personal history says that Angus, Mary, Margaret Cameron and baby Margaret traveled with Angus's "brother Alexander and far larger family emigrated in 1836 as well." Angus himself died around 1853 in California. Gold rush.
Cheers
Jeff
jdm at drizzle dot com
Port Townsend, Washington, USA
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Thanks Jeff for the information.. I do not think we relate close, but maybe way back at John Oig Macgregor 1700 or so...You know your tree goes way back... Annie
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There's a pedigree of Kirkmichael MacGregor's in a publication on the life of "Willox The Warlock", Gregor Willox MacGregor. The usual adopted surname subterfuge as the name MacGregor couldn't appear on a legal document.
Gregor's father Robert had a tack of Gaulrigg in Kirkmichael & Robert's older brother John was forester to Grant of Rothiemurchus. Much intermarriage with Cameron's therein & worth purchasing for the life of the Warlock alone.
Known for his hunting of witches, curing sick beasts & tracking down thieves with the aid of a magic stone & the bit from a kelpie's bridle. Willox is a "must" addition to anybody's family tree. Born in the 1750's & died 1833 & buried at Duthil. "Willox the movie?" I shouldn't be surprised!
The book, "Gregor Willox the Warlock," is obtainable from the Aberdeen & North-East Family History Society. Under a tenner from,
http://www. publications@anesfhs.org.uk
Skoosh.