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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: Cadoret on Wednesday 01 March 06 12:26 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I've traced my mum's paternal side back to my ggg grandparents' marriage in 1812 thanks to my grandfather's entries in our family bible - and confirmed the line thanks to a couple of kind RootsChat members! - but can't find any details further back than this. I know that the next stage is to order the marriage cert, but for various reasons I can't do this at the moment.
I know that it's a long shot, but does anyone have any information about William or Helen? I'm interested in parentage, but also any info re their children would be good. It's likely that their son William was a character nicknamed 'Sorbie Trees' was quite well known in the Castleton area (owned sorbietrees farm), as he was murdered - oops, I should simply say shot dead, as the guy was aquitted - by a reverend minister in 1851.
From the 1841 census William snr was a farmer in Heiton near Kelso, and his son Robert was my gg grandfather who also went into farming (farm steward at Easter Ulston farm, Jedburgh), so obviously any info re him or his wife Isabella Cairns would be ace.
Here's William & Helen's family details;
Name Where Born Born Notes
William Armstrong Roxburghshire ? Died 21/12/1896
Helen Riddle ? Died "in childbed September 1839"
Margaret Smith Roxburghshire ? Second marriage, 22/1/1841
William 17th July 1813
Isabella 17th March 1815
John 27th May 1817
Davis 21st April 1819
Agnes 4th April 1821 "Died aged of 3 years"
Mary 5th March 1823
Robert Roxburghshire 27th February 1825
Peter Roxburghshire 5th August 1927
Adam Yetholm, Roxburghshire 25th December 1829
Agnes Roxburghshire 26th July 1831
Any help or advice greatly appreciated!
Graeme
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ARMSTRONG, William Bir 1813 Scot Roxb Yethol
Fa: William ARMSTRONG
Mo: Helen RIDDLE
ARMSTRONG, Isabella Bir 1815 Scot Roxb Yethol
Fa: William ARMSTRONG
Mo: Helen RIDDLE
ARMSTRONG, John Bir 1817 Scot Roxb Yethol
Fa: William ARMSTRONG
Mo: Helen RIDDLE
ARMSTRONG, David Bir 1819 Scot Roxb Yethol
Fa: William ARMSTRONG
Mo: Helen RIDDLE
ARMSTRONG, Mary Bir 1823 Scot Roxb Yethol
Fa: William ARMSTRONG
Mo: Helen RIDDLE
ARMSTRONG, Robert Bir 1825 Scot Roxb Yethol
Fa: William ARMSTRONG
Mo: Helen RIDDLE
ARMSTRONG, Peter Bir 1827 Scot Roxb Yethol
Fa: William ARMSTRONG
Mo: Helen RIDDELL
these details come from my owen tree
audrey
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William Armstrong married
Hellen Riddell
1/9/1812 at Kelso Rox.
audrey
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Thanks Audrey,
My mistake - I already knew that but forgot to put it in the post!
Regards, Graeme
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Hi Graeme
In your initial post you said the next step was to order the 'marriage certificate'. I think you might be disappointed by the information received.
Statutory records only started in 1855. Prior to that the only records of births and marriages were the Old Parochial records (OPR)
Marriages were often not recorded. The intention to marry was shown by the posting of Banns which were read out in church on three occasions. If the groom was from another parish they would be read in his parish too which explains why the IGI records sometimes make it appear as though they married twice in different places.
In reality it was possible that the wedding did not take place at all and it probably was not on any of the dates quoted.
Some OPR were more detailed than others so you might be in luck - some have not survived the years so there might be no trail left to follow. then you start to search through graveyards and M.I. lists
Good luck with the search
Russell
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Thank you Russell, you have cleared up my confusion as to why my gggg grandfather's marriage in 1786 was entered twice in the IGI!! He was born (we think) in Manuden but was married in Birchanger (both in Essex).
Anna :)
PS Sorry to go off topic!!
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Thanks also, Russell; I knew about the change in 1855... when I said 'order' I should have said 'try to obtain' the marriage certificate! But what you say about the banns clarifies what another RootsWeb member told me - the person who I suspect is my gg uncle (the 'Sorbie Trees' character) seemed to have been married twice, 10 days apart in Kelso & Castleton... but then the double banns thing this would 'prove' a link between my gg grandfather who lived in Heiton near Kelso and William's spouse who came from Newcastleton. But there again it seems that Sorbie Trees' farm was his 'paternal estate', which would have made my ggg grandfather the owner.... only documentation will decide this.
So before I try for a marriage cert, it would be better to try & get the birth certs. of gg grandfather Robert and his brother William - and I've also traced the will of the 'Sorbie Trees' guy, it's available for printout, and would prove/disprove if he's my gg uncle... if he was, I'd love to know what happened to 'his' 4416 acre farm, as he died intestate! It's a fascinating story about how he died - you can read about it at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/CUMBERLAND/2004-05/1084569791
regards, Graeme
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Hi Graeme
Under Scots law when someone died intestate there were strict rules about how the estate would be divided up. You may find out quite a bit about the whole family that way.
I downloaded a will from the Pringle estate in Torwoodlee (near Galashiels) and learned nothing as he had already divvied up most of his money in previous years.
Dispute over money and land would have been dealt with by the Commissariot Court in Hawick or one of the other larger towns so look there too.
Happy hunting
Russell
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Graeme
If you do manage to come up with anything on the Riddell side please keep me in mind
Margaret Riddell b 6/9/1793 Hawick
father Walter Riddell
mother Janet Hamilton
I have my dough ts about this one as I have never had a Walter but had loads of Janet's but its the best I have come up with to date
audrey
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Will do, Audrey - just checked my Riddells & only came up with one Walter, born Roberton Rox, but he was christened 31 DEC 1749, so possiby a bit too old?
And thanks Russell re the will information. I've bookmarked the wills for download ASAP
And the story gets more complex - just found today that William Armstrong's widow was listed as 'farmer' in the 1861 census at the family farm, so seemingly inherited it. But the listings I have for 'his' wills are Jedburgh Sheriff Court dated Aug & Dec 1852, the year after he died in early 1851, and the second one is a Testament Dative, which is one "drawn up by the court if a person died intestate ... in order to appoint and confirm the executor on their behalf" in case you didn't know.
I say 'his' wills as I haven't confirmed the name, but they're both listed for 'Farmer at Sorbytrees', and WIlliam Armstrong was known as 'Sorby Trees' as I already explained - I guess it's possible that 2 other farmers local to the village of Sorbietrees died within a year of Armstrong, but his farm would have covered most of the area around Sorbitrees, plus it seems that farmers in that area were known by the name of their farm rather than surname ... worth a tenner to find out!
Plus I'm still short on proof that Sorby Trees was my gg uncle - however, Sorby Tree's wife was born in Newcastleton, there were the 2 marriages/banns read for William Armstrong/Elizabeth Hall at Castleton/Kelso, and 'both' Elisabeths had a father called Thomas (unless the FamilySearch entry for the 'Kelso' William Armstrong iss a mistake). Sorby trees was born 'about 1813 Of Sorbytrees' and my gg uncle at Yetholm 17/7/1813; I can't think of a reason why there was the entry at Kelso unless he had family there, and my gg grandfather had a farm only 2 or 3 miles south of Kelso...
The only fly in that ointment is that I only found out yesterday that Sorbitrees was Williams 'paternal farm'... if he was my gg uncle that would mean that my gg grandfather owned it or gifted it to him, but William snr was listed as 'farmer' in Heiton in the 1841 census... I guess he could have retired, being around 60 when Sorby Trees was shot, but gg grandfather was over 100 years old when he died!
So I still need to see the wills and try & trace birth/marriage certs for Willliam!
So the search goes on...
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hi graeme
i have copies of all grave inscs in newcastleton cemy.
thought you might be interested in this one.
IN THIS SPOT NEAR WHICH RESTS THE ASHES OF HIS FOREFATHERS
IS INTERRED WILLIAM ARMSTRONG OF SORBY TREES WHO TO THE GREAT
GRIEF OF THE NEIGHBOURHOOD WAS SHOT WITHOUT CHALLENGE OR
WARNING BY THE REVEREND JOSEPH SMITH INCUMBENT OF WALTON
CUMBERLAND ON THE NIGHT OF WEDNESDAY 16TH APRIL IN THE 38TH
YEAR OF HIS AGE.
IN AFFECTIONATE REMEMBRANCE THIS MONUMENT IS ERECTED BY
NUMEROUS BODY OF HIS FRIENDS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER AS
A TRIBUTE OF THEIR RESPECT FOR ONE OF WHOSE MANLY
STRAIGHTFORWARD AND GENEROUS DISPOSITION GAINED HIM THE LOVE
AND ESTEEM OF ALL WHO KNEW HIM.
ELIZABETH ARMSTRONG NEE HALL WIFE OF WILLIAM ARMSTRONG
SORBIETREES BORN 11TH SEPTEMBER 1820 AT NEWCASTLETON
DIED 21ST OCTOBER 1900 AGED 88YRS . AWIDOW FOR NEARLY 55YRS.
BETTER IS A LITTLE WITH RIGHTIOUSNESS THAN GREAT REVENUES WITH
INJUSTICE.
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hi graeme
just found something else on my list of mi's
archibald armstrong of sorbytrees died on 26th sept 1821 aged 82yrs
there is only one farm called sorbietrees. though there would have been a
few farm cottages for farm workers.
bougie
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Belated thanks, Bougie - missed these additions for some reason.
I already had the grave inscription, but the info re arch amstrong is interesting. However, I've called a halt to investigating 'Sorbietrees' until I've managed to get a copy of his wills; hopefully then I'll be able to see if we're related. If we are there might be a link to Arch A. also.
My main problem is I've hit a dead end with the OPR marriage record of my ggg grandparents that I found at the Family Research Centre in Selkirk; no parents' names! But if Sorbietrees was their son perhaps his will might give some clues :-|
regards, Graeme