England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cheshire Lookup Requests => Cheshire => England => Cheshire Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: D R Spencer on Friday 01 October 04 20:21 BST (UK)

Title: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
Post by: D R Spencer on Friday 01 October 04 20:21 BST (UK)
Greetings - I am a new member and this is my first post, so forgive me if I'm completely lost.

My G-G-Grandfather, Joseph Dutton, was born 16 Feb 1840 at Minshull Vernon (according to Cheshire Records Office - Nantwich Reg. District), and a family bible indicates that he was born in Winsford, Middlewich, so his family lived somewhere in that general area.

His parents were Joseph and Rebecca (Preston) Dutton.  If anybody has access to an index or census where you might find info on the family, I'd greatly appreciate any info on his parents (such as ages/est. years of birth).  IGI indicates that a Joseph Dutton and Rebecca Preston married in Middlewich on 12 Jul 1819, and this could be his parents, but finding the family in the census would tell me if his parents were old enough to have been married 21 years before his birth.  Info about siblings would also be appreciated.

I assumed with his name being the same as his fathers that he was a first son, but I suppose it's possible that an earlier son named Joseph died and they reused the name, or perhaps he only had older sisters, explaining why he may have been born 21 years after his parents married.

Joseph and his wife (Sarah Bates of Lincolnshire) married in Brotton Church (North Riding of Yorkshire) in 1872, and brought their family to the U.S. about 1883 (along with Sarah's mother Mary Stacey-Bates, Sarahs sister Isabella Bates-Jefferson & her family, and Sarahs brother Richard Bates and his family).

A cousin of mine here in the U.S. received a letter around 1935 or so stating that he was the next male in the line of decent, and asking if he'd like to return to England to be properly educated to take over the family manor (it was in the posession of three Ladies Dutton), but he wasn't interested.  That's the last contact we know of with our Dutton relatives in Cheshire.

Would be great to find some cousins from across the sea!
Title: Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
Post by: peterbennett on Saturday 02 October 04 16:56 BST (UK)
I have looked at your post and wonder if you have the 1881  and the 1871 census details as I notice you have not asked for them, if so can you post the details of the 71 as a reply on this link.
  Also I notice that a letter was received, was there a senders address on it if yes can you post it as well.
  I have searched the 1851 census and found only one Joseph Dutton born in Minshall Vernon age 11 a farm servant not living with parents, when you received his birth details from the Cheshire RO did it give details of parents.


Title: Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
Post by: D R Spencer on Saturday 02 October 04 21:04 BST (UK)
Joseph Dutton (b. 16 Feb 1840 in Minshull Vernon) was the son of Joseph Dutton and Rebecca Preston, and the certificate only indicates that his father Joseph Dutton was a labourer.

Regarding the letter, unfortunately it was never kept.  My cousin regrets this as his daughter has been trying to dig up this genealogy for years, as have I.  I've had much more success than her, but we share all our info with each other.  I don't quite understand the whole situation, as it would seem with the father being a labourer, I  wouldn't imagine he would have some sort of estate for anybody to inherit or take over.  But this cousin of mine is still alive (age 76) and I have no reason to doubt the story.

I didn't ask for 1871 as I figured I'd need to start with 1841/51/61 and move forward.  I'm uncertain when Joseph Dutton (father) and his wife Rebecca passed away.  If they are the individuals who married in 1819, then they were probably born 1790s-1800 and are possibly not around in the 1881 census.  (1881 census has no Jos Duttons b. between 1795 and 1805, and only one Rebecca Dutton born 1803 but it's not her)  I figured if I could find them in 1841, etc. I'd have an idea of how old they are so I can skim death records for Cheshire for any possible matches.  Also uncertain of Rebeccas place of birth, as somebody indicated on the US census that Josephs father was born in England and mother born in Scotland.  But I've learned over the years to use census info as a starting point, but not to accept it as fact (people on both sides of the sea have always been a bit mistrusting of the government wanting to know their business, and census info is only as good as the memory/ knowledge of the person supplying the info to the census taker).

Joseph Dutton (the son) served in the 7th Regiment of Hussey from 20 Jul 1867 until 18 July 1868, enlisting in London and being discharged at Canterbury.  Sometime in the next couple of years he found himself in the North Riding of Yorkshire, where he married Sarah Bates on the 26th of August 1872.  I've found him and the other Bates families in 1881, and they began emmigrating to the USA shortly after, with Joseph & his family arriving in New York on the 3rd of May 1883.  I don't have access to the 1871 census for the North Riding but I'd bet they are all there. (The Bates family originated in Cambridge, moved through Lincolnshire, then settled in the North Riding before some of them came to the US)

It's interesting that you found a Jos Dutton age 11 living away from his parents.  What town/village was the farm where he was working?  Did you not see a Joseph Dutton with a wife Rebecca in 1851?  Perhaps they were both deceased already?

Thank you for your assistance.

D R Spencer
Title: Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
Post by: peterbennett on Sunday 03 October 04 15:26 BST (UK)
   The Joseph Dutton I found was born in Minshall Vernon, the village he was working in was close by and called Church Vernon, there were no likely Dutton family living in the area these two villages.
There was no J.D.snr or Rebecca shown anywhere on the Middlewich/Northwich district.
Unfortunately the 1841 census is not indexed and very difficult to read, so although not finding the family in the above area  it does not mean they were not there.
As you say a son of the gentry would not be a ag/labourer so is it possible that you are starting with the wrong JD ? Does the marriage certificate of Joseph and Sarah Bates confirm the age, and fathers name and occupation ?
I will see what can be found in the 1881 census and backwards.

Title: Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
Post by: D R Spencer on Sunday 03 October 04 20:08 BST (UK)
I believe it's the correct Joseph Dutton.  A family bible indicated he was born 16 Feb 1840, and the certificate agrees with that.  What are the odds that there would be two Joseph Duttons born somewhere in Cheshire on the same day both having a father named Joseph?  The only difference between the bible and the certificate is that the bible indicated he was born in Winsford, Middlewich - I assumed the family lived near there when he was younger and he believed he was born in Winsford - or perhaps it was the nearest large town/city and it was his point of reference.

The CheshireBMD website, which they claim has complete records, only shows 2 Joseph Duttons born in 1840, both registered in the Nantwich district.  When I sent off to the Record Office for his certificate, I sent the reference numbers for both records, along with Josephs alleged birthdate and the fact that his fathers name was Joseph, and I asked for the appropriate record.  I also stated that if by some chance both Josephs had a father named Joseph, I would like to have copies of both records (and authorized payment as such) so that I could do more research to determine which was the correct Joseph.  They only sent me the one record, so I assume the other Joseph did not have a father named Joseph.

I don't actually have a copy of Joseph and Sarah's marriage record, the family bible indicated the date and place of the marriage, and somebody in North Riding went to the RO and looked it up for me many years ago (in response to something I posted in a local paper/bulletin).  According to what she wrote me, Joseph was a miner, which matches the 1881 census, and his father Joseph was a labourer, which matches the birth record.  There is a discrepency on the marriage record regarding Sarah, but I've moved past that and found some of Sarah's ancestry back to her grandparents on her fathers side.

Thank you once again for the information, and for taking the time to help me with this endeavour.

D R Spencer
Title: Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
Post by: D R Spencer on Wednesday 01 September 10 20:01 BST (UK)
In case anybody comes across this while searching, this mystery has been solved.  If you are related, or have any question, feel free to contact me or post here.
Title: Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
Post by: Cthomas on Friday 17 December 10 18:00 GMT (UK)

I saw your post re Joseph and Rebecca Dutton (Preston) and would be interested to hear how the mystery was solved. My great great great grandfather was William Dutton, brother of your Joseph (born 1840) and son of Joseph and Rebecca Preston born 1799. Rebecca appeared on the 1841 census but no Joseph (possibly he was already dead). Certainly he was by 1846 as she then remarried Edward Edmunds - she appears as his wife on the 1851 census. By 1861 she is widowed again and sometime later marries John Palin before dying in 1867. Possibly you may know all this, but I have not been able to find out what happened to Joseph Dutton senior, so I am hoping you might be able to help with this. From some research carried out by someone else I think he  was probably born in Warmingham in 1797. If he died it would have to have been post 1840 as he was named as the father on "Joseph Dutton 1840"'s birth certificate. He doesn't appear in the 1841 census either. I tried to get hold of a death certificate for him, but there doesn't appear to be one that matches him (in Cheshire anyway). If you are able to help at all, I would be very interested to hear from you. Thank you

Title: Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
Post by: D R Spencer on Saturday 18 December 10 01:15 GMT (UK)
I visited the Cheshire Family History research room at the Crewe library and did some research this past summer while visiting England.  With the help of the researchers there, we found Josephs death recorded in the parish register for St. Michael and All Angels.  He was buried 10 May 1840, which is exactly 9 months before young Joseph was born (10 Feb 1841), so Rebecca must have just gotten pregnant when he was killed.  There was a note in the parish register next to Josephs name that said "G.J.R.W.", which the researchers said most likely meant Great Junction Rail Works.
I recall seeing something on where somebody had claimed that they found the parents of Joseph (and it may have been the record you are referring to for Joseph of Warmingham), but I was able to disprove that particular claim in a matter of minutes.  As of now, I have no information on Josephs exact birth date, but he is listed as 46 years old when he died in May 1840, giving approximate birth between June 1793 and May 1794.  I also do not know of his burial location.  St. Peters Leighton cum Minshull Vernon wasn't established yet, nor was the town cemetery in Middlewich.  I haven't been able to find any resource to tell where earlier burials from St. Michael and All Angles would be prior to the cemetery in Middlewich opening.
I also do not know where Rebecca Preston-Dutton-Edmunds-Palin is buried.  She may be buried in the St. Peters churchyard, where William and Edward and their wives and other family members are buried, but at the time that I was there I had not yet known about Rebeccas third marriage to a Palin, so I wasn't looking for the burial of a Rebecca Palin.
Like you, I also searched for a death certificate for Joseph, and while in Crewe I went to the record office just up the street from the library.  The only Joseph that had a death recorded at that time was a 10 year old boy.  So it may be that his death wasn't officially recorded with the registrar.
Title: Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
Post by: Cthomas on Monday 20 December 10 17:34 GMT (UK)
Thank you for your reply and information which is very interesting. However I am curious as to how you were able to disprove that our Joseph Dutton was not the same "Joseph Dutton born 1797 in Warmingham" as this seemed quite likely - I received the information via someone on who had found the information in the Cheshire records office (although I am not sure how he could be certain that it was the correct Joseph). If as you say Joseph was 46 when he died in May 1840, that would certainly mean he was born 1793/4 rather than 1797. The suggestion that he died in a railway accident is interesting also.

As for Rebecca (Palin) it is possible as you say that she was buried at St Peters, Minshull Vernon. I was up there last November (at a family funeral) but at that point didn't know she ended up as a Palin either, so was only looking for a Rebecca Dutton. However my father still lives in Cheshire, so I will ask him to check that out next time he is in the area. I did see some other Dutton graves though, including my ggg grandfather William Dutton's.
Title: Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
Post by: D R Spencer on Friday 28 January 11 23:12 GMT (UK)
Sorry for the delay in replying.  I don't have an ancestry membership, so I had to wait until I went to the LDS Family History Center to dig into this again.  I went this week and I tried to search again for the information that I had found that led me to believe that our Joseph and the 1797 Joseph of Warmingham were not the same, but I wasn't able to find whatever it was that I originally found when I first came across the trees on ancestry that have our Joseph as the son of Benjamin/Elizabeth.   I will continue to try to find whatever it was that triggered this, but I certainly have not found any information at that all that would prove that they are in fact the same.  Personally I don't believe they are and I will try to keep looking to try to find evidence.  It was a while ago and I just don't remember exactly where I found it.
Title: Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
Post by: Lyday,Russell on Tuesday 05 February 19 01:42 GMT (UK)
My maternal grandmother was Elizabeth Dutton daughter of Joseph and Sarah born in New York, USA. I'm also trying to trace this line back and have hit a wall. I know Joseph and Sarah lived in Barre, Orleans county, New York and Sarah was buried there. Any info would be helpful. Thank You  Lynn Lyday Russell
Title: Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
Post by: Jm Dutton on Thursday 21 March 19 19:36 GMT (UK)
 Hi miss Russell
  Maybe I can help  Joseph Dutton and Sarah were my 4x great grandparents.  Their son was john Dutton  his son was my great grandpa . What are you trying to find
Title: Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
Post by: Lyday,Russell on Thursday 21 March 19 20:35 GMT (UK)
Hi,  Thanks for your reply.  Joseph Dutton and Sarah Bates are my great grandparents. Their daughter Elizabeth Rose is my grandmother.  I'm interested in tracing them back to England. Any info on where to look would be appreciated. I believe Sarah's parents were Sanford and Mary Bates. I would like more info on the Dutton line.      Again, Thankyou
Title: Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
Post by: Jm Dutton on Thursday 21 March 19 22:57 GMT (UK)
Joseph Henry Dutton
 16 Feb 1840
Minshull Vernon, Cheshire East Unitary Authority, Cheshire, England
TOD   28 Apr 1908
Oakfield, Genesee County, New York, USA        Sarah Bates Dutton
6 Apr 1854
Sutterton, Boston Borough, Lincolnshire, England
TOD   28 Sep 1891
Barre, Orleans County, New York, USA
Title: Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
Post by: Jm Dutton on Thursday 21 March 19 23:05 GMT (UK)
Rose Elizabeth Dutton Starkweather
BIRTH   20 Mar 1885
West Barre, Orleans County, New York, USA
DEATH   14 May 1978 (aged 93)
Orleans County, New York, USA
Mount Albion Cemetery
Albion, Orleans County, New York, US   Is this her?
Title: Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
Post by: Lyday,Russell on Friday 22 March 19 13:33 GMT (UK)
Thank you for your reply!! My grandmother was married to Orli n Crowell ( my grandfather) on Sept. 17, 1910. He died July 1, 1925. It was sometime after she met Fred Starkweather. There are several Duttons buried a few miles from me in Oakfield including my gr. grandfather. Albion and Barre are also nearby.  I hope to eventually learn more about the Dutton line but as I am an amateur at this, I always open to tips on how to proceed!                Thanks again!
Title: Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
Post by: Jm Dutton on Friday 22 March 19 19:30 GMT (UK)
Your welcome , yes there are Dutton’s all over gennesse county. The reason Sarah is not buried in oakfield she past and  joesph remarried .
Title: Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
Post by: Lyday,Russell on Tuesday 30 April 19 23:06 BST (UK)
I'm trying to find Joseph Henry Dutton s parents, where they were born and any info about this side of my family. Thank You in advance and sorry that I have been slow to respond