RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Norfolk Lookup Requests => Norfolk => England => Norfolk Completed Look up Requests => Topic started by: krisesjoint on Saturday 02 October 04 14:02 BST (UK)
-
Hi just wondering if somebody could try to find a couple of sisters for me in the 1851 census for Norwich. Unfortunately I cannot tell you much as I dont know much about these girls. I do not know there parents names. The girls I am after are
Emily Knights b about 1846 Norwich
Elizabeth Louisa Knights b about 1849 Norwich
Thank You....Kris
-
No Elizabeth to be found, only one born 1835.
But found an Emily that fits,
Address St Martins Street Jones Yard, Norwich
Census place Norwich St Martin at Oak Norwich
PRO ref HO/107/1812
folio 147
page 3
film 0207465
Stephen Bloom, head, widower, 70,male, weaver, Mendlesham, Norfolk
Emily Knights, daughter, unmarried, 39, female, cotton filler, Hoxne, Suffolk
Charles Knights, grandson, 10, male, errand boy, Norwich
Harriett Knights, grandaughter, 8,female, scholar,Norwich
John Knights, grandson, 6, male,scholar,Norwich
Emily Knights,grandaughter, 4,female, scholar, Norwich
Hope this helps
Nicky
-
mmm Nicky Thank you. looks like i will need 41 to get to the bottom of this one. Dau unmarried but different name to father ??? surely she is a widow.
Thanks very much...Kris :D
REQUEST COMPLETED
-
Hi, did you ever get anywhere with your research on Emily Knights born in Suffolk and moved to Norwich in Norfolk? I too am stuck on whether she actually ever married, was Stephen Bloom her father? She had a daughter called Emily Knights who married Matthew George Rix and am finding her parents a little difficult to sort out. Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks
-
Hi Lucy,
A Big Welcome to RootsChat. :D
Appologies for my delay in getting back to you. I somehow missed your reply.
This is an oldie. Sorry I am not related. It is my research buddy's family. I posted the request for her some years ago in my early days on RootsChat.
I have not looked at this in some time although I am often helping my friend with her family, but no we do not have the marriage, nor Emily's baptism. The belief is that Emily was Emily Bloom who is supposed to have married John Knights. No marriage located. My friend is decended from young Emily and Matthew George Rix through their daughter Rachel.
Cheers Kris :D
-
Hi,
This is my first Rootschat posting, so please excuse my butting in...
I've been wrestling with Emily Knights for some time - she appears to be my 3xgreat grandmother, though the family seems to have been rather relaxed about detail when giving any information to the authorities, so everything comes with a health warning.
I think the strongest likelihood is that Emily was never married. Stephen Bloom was her stepfather (father in law in the 1851 census). He married Lydia Knights in St George Colegate, Norwich 6 June 1821; Lydia was the widow of John Knights who married her 2 December 1811 in Hoxne, her maiden name was Palmer, the daughter of Francis Palmer (died Hoxne 1794) and Keturah Shreeve (glorious name) The baptismal register for Hoxne 1813-1837 is apparently missing so there is no absolute proof that Emily was their daughter but another daughter, Priscilla, had an illegitimate daughter also named Emily who was baptised in May 1811 in Hoxne and died the following October.
Stephen and Lydia apparently had 3 children, William Bloom (only known from the 1841 census) Francis Stephen Bloom born 1 April 1828 and Richard, born 26 July 1831 and buried 12 August 1831. Lydia was buried in St George Colegate 29 July 1831, presumably died in childbirth.
A removal order was issued on 14 April 1829 against Stephen Bloom, linen-weaver, his wife Lydia and two children, for their removal from St George Colegate to Mendlesham. Presumably they came back.
The surving family members are in the 1841 census in Pitt Street, St Augustine, Norwich. They all have the surname Bloom, and include Emily's (presumed) children Charles 4 and Harriet 1. There is no sign of anyone who could be Emily's husband.
Charles is my 2xgreat grandfather. Although his age is given as 10 in the '51 census all later records indicate a birth around 1836/7 although I have not been able to find any record. He married Ann Dye in 1856 and his marriage certificate names his father as William Knights, but on his second marriage in 1875 his father's name is not recorded.
Emily is in the 1861 census in Oak Street, Norwich with Emily 14 and Elizabeth 11. She is listed as a charwoman, born in Norwich and a widow. If it were not for the 2 daughters I would be less certain she was the same person.
I can't find any trace of Emily in the 1871 census but she died in Tinklers Lane, Heigham on 12 April 1876 of chronic bronchitis. Her death certificate says she was the widow of John Knights (not William) and the burial register for Earlham Road Cemetery (16 April) says she was a single woman.
One final complication - the baptism register for St George Colegate shows a baptism of Emily, daughter of Francis and Emily Knights, born 9 September 1846, baptised 6 June 1847. I may be slandering my ancestors, but I have a suspicion that Emily's stepfather Stephen may be the father of her children; he was buried 7 February 1854 and his name is recorded as Stephen Francis Bloom.
If hope this has not just muddied the waters - if you have any evidence to contradict what I seem to have found, let me know.
Aelf
-
Hi Aelf,
Oh my goodness what a very complicated piece of information but I was told that Emily Knights was going to take a lot of working out and looks like you may have been just the person I was waiting for. I will need to digest the information you have given me and then pass it on to my friend and then on to another lady who I know will be fascinated. My friend and this other lady are related to Matthew and Emily Rix (nee Knights). Thank you ever so much for taking the time to copy your research to me. There are many odd people who research and never want to share that with others, why I have no idea but you have shown what I have known to be true of many. Like me you are willing to share what it has taken you months and years to unravel so again thank you very much. My friend Sue and her mum will be thrilled as will I am sure the Rix Alliance people who they may be meeting up with at the end of this month in Norwich.
Vicky
-
Hi Aelf,
A Big Welcome to RootsChat. ;D
Thank you for your most informative post re the Knights, Bloom family. I have been in touch with my friend to pass on this information. She is very pleased to receive your information re this family. She is descended from Emily's daughter Emily who wed Matthew George RIX through their daughter Rachel who wed James William Hardman NOBBS 1897 Norwich. (Now James William Hardman NOBBS was the son of Emily's sister Elizabeth Louisa) She did not have a birth for Emily (1846) or Elizabeth Louisa (1851) but had their parents listed as John Knights and Emily Bloom. She is not sure at this stage where she came by the name of Emily and Elizabeth Louisa's father as John Knights.
Re your theory that Stephen Bloom may be the father, a little concerned as to his age as he would have been 70-75 when Elizabeth Louisa was born. I know you mentioned not having found a baptism for Charles but we are wondering if you have found records for any of Emily's other children? Certainly something suspicious with Charles naming his father as William at one marriage and unnamed at the second marriage, particularly in light of the baptism you have for Emily listing her father as Francis.
Their are a few little concerns in what you are saying here. Looking at 1851 census Stephen Bloom does in fact list as head, Emily KNIGHTS daughter (not daughter in law) and the 4 children all list as his grandchildren.
Had the death for Stephen Francis BLOOM Jun 1/4 1854 Norwich 4b 57
The burial date you have listed (Feb) does not seem to agree with this.
Also would you mind explaining this (wondering about another daughter Priscilla - who's daughter)
The baptismal register for Hoxne 1813-1837 is apparently missing so there is no absolute proof that Emily was their daughter but another daughter, Priscilla, had an illegitimate daughter also named Emily who was baptised in May 1811 in Hoxne and died the following October.
Re your own line - we note that Ann Dye died Mar 1870 yet in 1881 there is 9 year old Elizabeth Knights listed in the extended family. We do not see her in 1871 and Charles and Sarah Sayer did not marry until 1875.
Look forward to hearing more from you.
Kind Regards...........Kris :)
-
Hi Vicky and Kris,
Good to know my info was useful - and apologies for anything unclear, misleading or just plain wrong.
Kris, you are of course right about Emily being listed as Stephen Bloom's daughter in the 1851 census, that was a lapse on my part. It still leaves the problem of Charles's age - he should have been around 16 but I wonder if the original census information was misread when the enumeratoir filled in the final form we see today. In any case it looks very much as though the Knights/Bloom family was not keen on coming to the attention of the authorities.
My particular problem is that I have no positive evidence that my ancestor Charles Kights was the same person as the one in the 1841 and 1851 censuses. I can't find any other possible candidate; also Charles and his son were both horsehair drafters, which is part of the brush making process - many others among the family were in the same trade.
It seems difficult to trace the family through the 1800s and it looks as though part of the problem is that the surnames change from Bloom to Knights and back again. The FreeBMD
index shows a Harriet and John Knights having their births registerd at the right time to match the census ages, but in the Hoxne district - could they be the right ones?
As to the possibility that Stephen might be the father of Emily's children, that's just my nasty mind. It's more likely that he wasn't, but raises the possibility that Emily just picked the names of male relatives at random whenever anyone official asked who her husband was! I could be completely wrong and I try to keep an open mind when investigating Emily, but I keep remembering a quote from the late Alan Malville - "she was no better than she ought to be, and sometimes not as good as..."
I certainly saw the burial record for Stephen in the register of St George Colegate but I could have copied the date wrong. Another possibility is that the death was registered after the burial - I don't know if that is possible, but at that period it was the responsibility of the registrar to find the information, the public were not forced to supply it voluntarily.
Sorry about the confusion over Priscilla's daughter, I was trying to avoid overloading the message. The position is as follows: Francis Palmer and Keturah Shreeve had 5 children in Hoxne, Francis, Priscilla, Prudence, Lydia and Mary. Priscilla had a daughter Emily baptised 14 May 1811 (no father named). When I found that in the Hoxne register I thought I had a new lead, until I found she was buried 10 Oct 1811.
Francis Palmer senior married Keturah 22 May 1785 in Stradbroke, Suffolk and he had a pauper's burial in Hoxne 21 Nov 1794. His age as given at death would give a birth about 1761. There was a Francis born then in Hoxne, but I'm not sure if he's the same person - his father was a farmer and appears to have been still alive in the 1790s, which makes me wonder whether he would have managed a "proper" funeral.
I'm still trying to get to grips with the people from the 1841 census in later years. I'm not sure enough of anything to pass it on yet, but there is one possible pice of extra evidence. The 1841 census shows the following "Blooms" - Stephen 65, Emily 25, Samuel 20 , Willam 15, Francis 10, Charles 4 and Harriet 1. (If you look them up on ancestry.co.uk you'll find them transcribed as Blonn) The only possible match I can find for Samuel in 1851 is a Samuel Knights, horsehair weaver, who was born around 1816 and who sometimes, but not always, gives his birthplace as Hoxne, presumably a brother of Emily. I won't burden you with the full details of his career at present but it appears to follow the same pattern of confusion as the rest of the family.
Finally, I am still trying to solve the mystery of Elizabeth Knights, daughter of Charles. I can't see a record under either Knights or Sayer. It sometimes seems that every new fact raises at least two new questions.
Best wishes,
Larry
-
Hello again,
Quick note - I went back to Norwich last week. Spent most of the time on other branches of my tree, but did establish I had mis-transcribed Stephen Bloom's burial; date was 7 April 1854 not 7 Feb.
Larry
-
Hello again,
Quick note - I went back to Norwich last week. Spent most of the time on other branches of my tree, but did establish I had mis-transcribed Stephen Bloom's burial; date was 7 April 1854 not 7 Feb.
Larry
I believe Stephen Francis Bloom, to give him his full name, was my great great great grandfather. He died on 1st April 1854 at Brooke's Yard, St Martin at Oak. The informant was E Knights who was present at death, which logically would be Emily Knights. His age was given as 75, which means the information on this thread about him being 70 on the 1851 census doesn't quite tally up.
If anyone can supply more information about him, his removal order etc, it would be most welcomed.
-
I doubt whether any age in the 1851 census can be trusted to be accurate for the Blooms/Knights. Charles Knights, my great-great grandfather is said to be 10 but all the other censuses (including 1841 where hios surname is Bloom) and certificates suggest he would have been born around 16. I don't think the family was particularly keen on giving accurate information to the authorities - not surprising if they thought they might be shipped off to Suffolk at short notice!
The removal order is in the Suffolk Record Office in Ipswich. I haven't seen it but the listing on the Access To Archives site shows him as a linen-weaver with wife Lydia and 2 children, from "St George of Colegate" to Mendlesham. I think by this time you could only be "removed" if you were actually about to become a charge on the parish, so presumably they were broke by 14 April 1829. What I don't know is how they could stop you coming back, if you found a way of getting enough cash to avoid being noticed. They were back within 2 years because their last child, Richard, was baptised in St George Colegate on 29 July 1831 and Lydia was buried on the same day. She died on the 26th, presumably in childbirth, so presumably that was also Richard's birthday.
-
Thanks for that information. His death certificate says he was a weaver so it fits in. His son Francis Stephen set up a succesful Horsehair Manufacturing business in Norwich, which lasted for well over 50 years. It's early days yet for me as I have only started researching this, but it would appear that Stephen's poor situation could have been a catalyst for his son to be successful.
There is a large family memorial in Rosary Cemetery which I presume was instigated by Francis, and an indication of the wealth they would have had then, compared to his father.
I also tend to agree with the earlier comment that Stephen could have fathered the children of his step-daughter Emily Knights.
-
Charles Knights probably worked for the same business - he was a horsehair draughter, died 12 December 1895 in Norwich though I don't have the address.
Charles's son Charles John Knights was my great grandfather and was also a horsehair draughter. He was born 21 October 1859 and died 23 June 1883 at Duck Lane, St Benedict's. His death was reported by the coroner, as natural causes. I believe he died some time after being injured in some sort of accident involving a cart, but this is a third-hand report via my daughter, who was not given any names when she was told; the source of the story now has Alzheimers so I'm unable to verify the facts.
We may be libelling Stephen concerning the paternity of Emily's children, but there's no other father in sight and the births start a few years after Lydia's death. I think it's either that, or Emily was a prostitute because if there was any other sort of informal relationship there tends to be some indication such as the father's surname being used as a middle name for the child - at least that seems to be the pattern with many of my ancestors. Fortunately the dead can't sue.
-
Hopefully I will find out more soon and let you know. As for libelling, as you point out the dead can't sue. As both a writer and publisher I can assure you we have nothing to worry about here!
Would be intrigued to know more behind your thinking that Emily could have been a prostitute. Just speculation?
As I said I've only just started looking in to my family but I hope to go through old newspapers soon. There might be info about the removal order, and perhaps if she was a prostitute, she may have come in contact with the law. What do you think?
-
Yes, the prostitution theory is pure speculation, if "pure" is the right word in this context. I don't mean it was necessarily a full-time career, just that her economic situation might make her rather more open to negotiation than someone with a bit more financial security. It's an argument from absence, but with all my other Norfolk ancestors (and they are all from Norfolk back to 1800 and beyond, except for Emily from Hoxne) there is a man in the background somewhere in this sort of case, and there are plenty of them - Victorian values weren't invented until the 1920s.
I also hope to go through some old papers as well, particlarly to see if there's a report of an inquest on Charles Knights as well as another ancestor in a different branch who die "by the visitation of God".
Even if the dead wanted to sue they would lose. The ones in Hell would have their evidence disbelieved and the ones in Heaven would probably have difficulty finding a lawyer.
-
As I am focusing on the Bloom's I want to try and get to the bottom of this. Firstly I want to establish when Stephen's son Francis established his horsehair business. I think it was probably in the 1850s, although clearly too late to financially support his father who was clearly quite poor.
I know that an 1892 Trade directory lists Francis Stephen & Son, horsehair manufacturers at Oak St, St Martins at Oak & Horsham St Faith's. There is also a map of Norwich dated 1885 showing the factory in St Martin's St (I think it might have been renamed Oak Street). On the south side of the factory is Queen Caroline Yard and on the north side, what was commonly called White Lion Yard, but on this map is listed as Bloom's Yard, so clearly Francis had become a very succesful business man, unlike his father who if all the theory's are correct was not only poor but something of a rogue as well! I have had copies of this map made.
-
I'm pretty certain some members of the extended family viewed Bloom and Knights as interchangeable surnames. I have also heard deeply politically incorrect rumours passed down from a deceased aunt, who married into the line, that the Knights were probably, shock horror, gypsies. May be true, certainly brushmaking which involved horsehair draughting seems to have been an intinerant occupation. I also wonder whether the Bloomfields who lived around Mendlesham may have been distantly related.
It's sometimes a relief to get back from this branch to look at the family my Knights grandmother married into; their surname doesn't change, on the other hand it's Smith.
-
I'm pretty certain some members of the extended family viewed Bloom and Knights as interchangeable surnames.
Well the plot would appear to thicken. What you say about the use of the surnames could be correct. However in a previous post you also said: "the baptism register for St George Colegate shows a baptism of Emily, daughter of Francis and Emily Knights, born 9 September 1846, baptised 6 June 1847. I may be slandering my ancestors, but I have a suspicion that Emily's stepfather Stephen may be the father of her children".
If you go to this link here: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tinstaafl/Church_Pages/norwich_st_martin_at_oak4.htm you will find the baptism record for St Martins Oak: Same birth date and baptism day but the father is Stephen Knights! The same person baptised in two different churches on the same day?
My theory is one of two things. Not only did Stephen Bloom interchange surnames but could also sometimes refer to his self by his middle name Francis. Alternatively, on this thread where you said "Stephen Bloom was her stepfather (father in law in the 1851 census)" this is contradictory. Does the census define him as the father in law? If it does then my other theory is that his son Francis Stephen could have been the father. That said, Francis married Elizabeth Bowhill of Wymondham around 1848, but maybe he fathered one or more children with Emily Knights but left her in the lurch to marry Elizabeth and left his father to support her and the children.
What other info do you have on the other children such as Charles Knights, and are you sure he is the same one listed in the 1841 census as Charles Bloom?
-
I have of course thickened the plot by being thick myself. The St martin at Oak entry is the correct one, my information was corrupted by my own carelessness when trying to make sense of the convoltions in this part of the family.
The 1851 census names Stephen Bloom as head of the household and Emily as his daughter; it would be possible to create a scenario which involved Emily being Stephen's actual daughter and marrying a Knights, who then avoids all church and state records but manages to beget children at intervals, but I think by far the greater probability is that daughter is used for daughter-in-law. This is not uncommon in the census - it happened in the 1901 census for my grandmother Nellie Ann Knights, who appears with her brother Charles Joseph with the surname Collins after the early death of her father Charles John Knights - she is described as the daughter of Frederick Collins, actually her step-father. The children in 1851 are all named as grandchildren of Stephen Bloom but 2 of the girls, Emily and Elizabeth, are named as Emily's daughters in 1861.
I am reasonably certain of the identity of Cahrles despite his age as given in 1851; as you point out, Stephen Bloom's age at death doesn't fit with his age according to the census, and Charles "Bloom"'s age in 1841 matches the Charles Knights who appears in the censuses from '61 to '91.
If faced with a choice, Emily's stepfather would be marginally preferable as the father of her children, rather than her half brother Francis. Not that this rules it out.
Incidentally, I'm not certain of the children were registered - can't see much sign of them on FreeBMD.
My refernce to name changing applies particularly to the Samuel Bloom who appears in the 1841 census aged 20, but it's even more conjectural than the rest, so I won't burden you with it at the moment.
-
I have an interest in this thread. I have a Samuel Knights who has changed his name to Bloom, lived in Norwich. Many of the first names that are mentioned in this thread are familiar. He had a son Stephen Francis Bloom. My Samuel Knights was a horse hair weaver.
Love to hear from anybody looking at this line.
-
I have an interest in this thread. I have a Samuel Knights who has changed his name to Bloom, lived in Norwich. Many of the first names that are mentioned in this thread are familiar. He had a son Stephen Francis Bloom. My Samuel Knights was a horse hair weaver.
Love to hear from anybody looking at this line.
Heather,
They are almost certainly my ancestors. A Stephen Francis Bloom (b1779) was my great, great, great grandfather, although I have since found out he was the bastard child of a Stephen Francis and Elizabeth Broom or Brume, which muddy's the waters further! On the baptism record the mother is listed as Brume and on the bastardy bond as Broom, so he took his father's surname as his middle name and his mother's, albeit slightly changed, as his surname. Unless of course the Br in the records should have been Bl, but with two instances of that I feel it is unlikely.
Now as I understand it, Stephen Francis Bloom married Lydia Knights, although I believe he had been married before but to date I have found no record of that. She definitely had been and appeared to have had two children from that first marriage, who I think were Emily and Samuel, in which case Stephen Francis Bloom is not actually related to Samuel but was his stepdad. Lydia Knights died in childbirth and from what I gather Emily and possibly Samuel continued living with their stepfather, Stephen Francis Bloom. In fact Emily lived with him for the rest of his life, and I am almost certain that they became an item as the census records then start to list the other younger children after his wife's death, which I believe to be the offspring of Stephen Francis Bloom and Emily Knights.
Also somewhere in the information that I have researched to date is a listing of a Samuel Knights Bloom a victualer in Norwich, which must certainly be he, the son of Lydia Knights and John Knights, and the stepson of Stephen Francis Bloom. I think he is the one who was a weaver (as was the family tradition) and in later life became a victualer.
They appeared to interchange the names with Stephen almost certainly fathering Emily's children- one baptism record puts the father as Stephen Knights although she never married.
From the information you have posted it would appear that Samuel Knights not only elected to take his stepfather's surname but then when he had his only son he then chose to name him after his stepfather, just to confuse us all further!
I have heaps more information that I can dig out if you want it.
You can also check what I have on line so far, here:
http://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-69036981/bloom?treeMode=immersive
Jerry
-
I can't see a firm connection but here is some of my information. Samuel Knights born c.1826 Hoxne, SUffolk (place of birth has remained constant ), married Charlotte and had two children. he also had an affair with a girl living at his house, Mary Ann Pawsey, and produced an illegitimate son, Samuel Knights Pawsey born 1861. 1861 census he is living with Charlotte, All census there after he is living with Mary Ann and has changed his name to Bloom. The name Bloom does not change from here. No record of marriage for Sam and mary ann ever found. The children form Samuel Knights (now Bloom) are as follows, Samuel b 1861, Angelina b 1865, William Stephen b 1868, Francis john b 1869, Elizabeth b 1875, Lydia Elizabeth b 1877, Henry Arthur b 1881, May Ella b 1886.
Not sure if there is a connection but this whole chat thread caught my attention with the Knights Bloom thread.
Kind regards
Frances
-
This could possibly be a different family. The information I have is that 6 June 1821, Stephen Francis Bloom married Lydia Knights at St George Colegate Church, Norwich.
The 1841 census lists Samuel Bloom (aged 20) as living in Pitt Street with Stephen Francis Bloom, Emily (25yo) and the four younger children. Although his age is probably incorrect, it would put Samuel's birth date at circa 1821, the year Stephen Francis Bloom married Lydia Knights, but I think he might have been a bit older and possibly the son from Lydia's marriage to John Knights. However it could be that he is the son of Stephen Francis Bloom and Lydia Knights, I've yet to discover anymore on this. If he is the latter then he is a directly related ancestor.
Other info that I have is from Kelly’s 1879 directory. It lists Francis S Bloom (son of Stephen Francis) living in Pitt Street and Mrs Bloom, 19 Pitt Street. Presumably husband and wife, but no more info other than that. It also lists a beer retailer at St Mary’s Churchyard, listed as ‘Samuel Knight Bloom’ who by then, assuming it is the same one would be about 60.
If all the info we have is correct, then Samuel was still fathering children at around this age. This isn't that unlikely given that I think his father (or stepfather) Stephen Francis was possibly still fathering kids with his stepdaughter until his mid sixties!
If you have any more info on Samuel, it would be interesting to know if it ties up with the one listed above as the victualer. I can't imagine there can be too many with the name ‘Samuel Knight Bloom’ so there is a strong chance it is the same person.
Jerry
-
I shall have to lie down in a darkened room before I get to the bottom of this, but as far as I can see the children of Samuel and Mary Ann Pawsey appear in the censuses as Bloom but are in the FreeBMD birth index as Knights.
Incidentally I make Samuel's birth in Hoxne as around 1816 rather than 1826 according to the census entries.
-
I think that until I can find out more about my first Samuel Knights, then I have probably hit a brick wall. But it is strange about the knights Bloom name interchange all the same.
happy researching :)
-
I don't know about a brick wall, it's more like a heap of rubble.
A couple of things I've come across:
The marriage of Samuel Knights (soon to be Bloom) and Mary Pawsey was in the 3rd quarter of 1862 in the Stow district according to FreeBMD. Mary Ann's surname appears as Parsey.
And I found another child of Emily Knights (assuming she's the same one) - Martha born 2 Jan 1837, baptised 15 Jan 1837 at St Martin at Palace and buried 27 Feb 1837. The mother is a spinster.
I hate to add another possible surname to the mixture, but Samuel Knight/Bloom from Hoxne appears as Samuel Cooper Knights at his first marriage.
-
Think we need to establish Samuel Knights / Bloom's birth date and parents to start with.
-
Thank you for free Free BDM reference, I shall check it out. I shall get back later when I have more info. Thanx for your help :) :)
-
The latest from me.
I acquired the marriage cert of Samuel Cooper Knights to Charlotte Winter in June 1851 in Norwich...definitely not my Samuel Knights as occupation is Book canvasser...father is martin Knigyts a baker by trade.
better yet....
I got the marriage certificate of Samuel Knights to Mary Ann Parsey in 1862. This is definitely my Samuel . He is a horse hair weaver and guess who his father is... Stephen Francis BLOOM (Deceased) also a horse hair weaver!
-
That's one small step towards clarification, two distinct pairs of Samuel and Charlotte Knights. No obvious sign of a marriage for "our" Samuel and Charlotte.
On the other hand it increases the likelihood that Samuel and Emily are siblings with Lydia Knights, nee Palmer as the mother. The biological father is another matter: if Stephen Francis Bloom was Samuel's real father it begs the question of the Stephen Knights who is named as the father of Emily Knight's daughter Emily, baptised 1848.
If we are to believe the records Emily Knights of Hoxne was a spinster when her daughter Martha was born on 2 Jan 1837 (St Martin at Palace, bap 27 Feb 1837); her son Charles was the son of William Knights (at his first marriage) and had no father (second marriage); her daughter Emily had Stephen Knights for a father (bap 6 June 1847, St George Colegate); she died as the widow of John Knights (death cert) and was buried as an unmarried woman (cemetery register). Either there were 5 different Emilys, with only one visible in any census year, or the records are less than accurate.
To add another worm to the can - when Francis Stephen Bloom was baptised on 27 Apr 1828 his parents were named as Stephen and Lydia, late Francis, spinster. Her father was Francis Palmer, so presumably there was some confusion when someone asked her for his name.
The possible permutations are numerous - can only keep an open mind and carry on looking for more data.
-
Have been trying to get my head around all the previous posts. Samuel Bloom aged 20 in 1841 census is my G G grandfather. He was always a horse hair weaver until 1881 when he gave his occupation as a stationary engine driver at the works (what ever the works were!).
From the previous posts I have come to understand that his (?)father Stepen Francis Bloom was married to a Lydia Knights (Nee Palmer). I presume therefore that Samuel is the son of this Lydia Knights andstep son of Samuel Bloom.
This would make sense to me and Samuel Bloom also names one of his daughters Lydia.
What a tangled web. But I think some great research has been done by you all.
-
What a strange coincidence! My mother - Marlene Bloom nee Welsh arrives in Aberdeen from Australia carrying the WELSH Family Tree in her hand last Wednesday.
She also has with her my father's details as set out below - according to our families ORAL history!
I being Gary Andrew Bloom, son Graham John Bloom and Marlene Welsh.
Graham John Bloom, being the son of John (Jack) Arthur Bloom and Elsie May Clarke.
John (Jack) Arthur Bloom, being the son of Francis Bloom and Margaret Tarrant.
Francis Bloom, being the son of Samuel Bloom and Mary Ann Pawsey.
Samuel Bloom, being the son of Stephen Bloom and Lydia Elizabeth Knight.
This morning I did a little google play and came across this thread - first time ever on here!
What does it all mean - All I want to know is who holds details on Pawsey and or Knight families and how are Stephen Bloom's parents!
Cheers
Gary Bloom - Melbourne Australia - now living in Aberdeen Scotland
-
Francis John Bloom - Born 1869
-
Hi Gary
Frances here in New Zealand. I have been researching our line (descendants of samuel Bloom and Mary Anne Pawsey for many years. My older sister made the Bloom/knights connection many years ago but did not further the research.
The other participants in this thread have certainly done some great research on that cunundrum.
I have plenty on the descendants of mary Anne and Sam Bloom if you would like me to send it.
Regards
Frances.
-
Yes - that would be fantastic - I'll send you as much as I have gathered though it is all oral history - my father's cousins and uncles etc - all from Francis John Bloom 1869 -
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
-
Francis John is the one I'm chasing!
-
I got the marriage certificate of Samuel Knights to Mary Ann Parsey in 1862. This is definitely my Samuel . He is a horse hair weaver and guess who his father is... Stephen Francis BLOOM (Deceased) also a horse hair weaver!
I think my great, great, great grandfather (Stephen Francis Bloom) was Samuel's stepdad. I think Samuel's real parents were Lydia (nee Palmer) and John Knights. Do you have any birth records for Samuel?
-
No sorry. I have no further information. Perhaps the others who started this link may have.
regards
Frances
-
Hi just wondering if somebody could try to find a couple of sisters for me in the 1851 census for Norwich. Unfortunately I cannot tell you much as I dont know much about these girls. I do not know there parents names. The girls I am after are
Emily Knights b about 1846 Norwich
Elizabeth Louisa Knights b about 1849 Norwich
Thank You....Kris
Hi
I believe Elizabeth Louisa Knights was my Great Grandmother
She was married to William Starling Nobbs
Their son my Grandfather James William Nobbs was born 5th Aug. 1868
William Starling Nobbs was born on 12th June 1845 died on 22nd June 1924
I hope this helps
Clive
-
I'd like to find out more about the Rix and Knights families - I'm a BLOOM but only due to Emily's brother taking on that surname.