RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Stirlingshire => Topic started by: andrew shanks on Tuesday 14 March 06 23:27 GMT (UK)
-
I have Ann Wilson born in 1812 in Larbert to Peter Wilson & Isabella Brown.
I am trying to establish whether this is the Peter Wilson who was the son of Robert Wilson & Isabel Laird, who were married in Larbert in 1781.
Grateful for any assistance. :)
-
Hello,
While there is no way to be absolutely certain, I believe that you are correct.
The 1851 census of Larbert has both Peter & Isabella alive and born in Larbert;
him aged 75 her aged 75. She died 1862 in Larbert - I have her death certificate if you would like a copy. Peter I think died 1851- 1855 so I can find no record of his death. Ann Wilson married John Penman and he was the witness on Isabella's death.
Isabella's family were originally from Tilcourtry Clackmannanshire. The 2nd son I have for them is Charles Brown Wilson which confused me but Isabella has a brother Charles b 1772.
Robert Wilson & Isabel Laird are my 3x g grand parents.
regards
Dano
-
One further piece of evidence- next on the census sheet to Peter Wilson & Isabella Brown in 1851, are Peter Wilson (his nephew) and Mary Rae.
Peter b 1815 Larbert was the son of Peter's brother Adam Wilson & Margaret Fife. I can confirm through his death certificate that Adam was definitely the son of Robert Wilson & Isabel Laird.
Does this help?
Dano
-
Hello Dano
Thank you for this information.
I do not yet have the parents of Isabella Laird, so her death cert would be useful to have. As far as Robert Wilson is concerned I have his parents as James Wilson & Margaret Harrower who married in Tillicoultry, Clacks on 28 May 1752 - does this agree with your own records? Nothing beyond them at this stage unfortunately.
Regards
Andrew
-
Hi Andrew,
I will send you the certificate by personal e-mail. Re the parents of Robert Wilson, I have Robert born 1756 Lasswade, Midlothian to Peter Wilson & Janet Gordon who married 1743 Lasswade, Midlothian. The children's naming patterns seem to bear this out.
Cheers
Dano
-
Name: Peter WILSON
----------------------------------------
Birth: 1778 Larbert, Stirling.
Christen: 30 12 1778 Larbert, Stirling.
Occupation: Coal miner
Father: Robert WILSON (1757-)
Mother: Isobel LAIRD (1756-)
Marriage: 1797 Larbert, Stirling.
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Isabella BROWN
----------------------------------------
Birth: 12 5 1776 Larbert, Stirling.
Father: William BROWN (1750-)
Mother: Agnes SMOULT (1754-)
Children:
----------------------------------------
1 M: Robert WILSON
Birth: 1798 Larbert, Stirling.
Christen: 20 11 1798 Labert, Stirling.
----------------------------------------
2 F: Mary Orrick WILSON
Birth: 2 5 1802 Larbert, Stirling.
Christen: 9 5 1802 Larbert, Stirling.
----------------------------------------
3 F: Janet WILSON
Birth: 23 3 1804 Larbert, Stirling.
Christen: 25 3 1804 Larbert, Stirling.
----------------------------------------
4 M: David WILSON
Birth: 18 6 1806 Larbert, Stirling.
----------------------------------------
5 F: Ann WILSON
Birth: 1 3 1812 Larbert, Stirling.
Christen: 8 3 1812 Larbert, Stirling.
Death: 6 6 1897 Kinnaird, Larbert1
Occupation: Coal miner's wife
Spouse: John PENMAN
Marriage: 20 2 1831 Larbert, Stirling
----------------------------------------
6 M: John Brown WILSON
Birth: 16 4 1814 Larbert, Stirling.
Christen: 17 4 1814 Larbert, Stirling.
----------------------------------------
7 F: Mary WILSON
Birth: 1817 Stirling
Notes for Peter WILSON
1851 Census recs.
Census Place:Kinnaird, Stirling
Peter WILSON, 74, STI.
Isabella Brown WILSON, 75, STI.
Mary WILSON, 34, STI.
Notes for Isabella BROWN
1851 Census: Kinnaird, STI, Isabella Brown WILSON, 75yrs, PoB Stirling.
Notes for Ann (Child 5)
1851 Census: Kinnaird, STI, Ann Wilson PENMAN, 39, STI.
1861 Census: Kinnaird, Larbert, STI, Ann Wilson PENMAN, wife, marr., 50, STI, Kinnaird.
1871 Census: Kinnaird, Larbert, STI, Ann Wilson PENMAN, wife, marr., 59, STI, Kinnaird.
1881 Census: Mansfield Row, Larbert, STI, Annie Wilson PENMAN M 69 F Larbert, Stirling, Scotland. Rel: Wife.
Notes for Mary (Child 7)
1851 Census: Kinnaird, STI, Mary WILSON, 34yrs, PoB Stirling
Sources
1. Death cert. No.112
Ann PENMAN, housewife, wid. John PENMAN, coal miner.
d.1897, Jun 6th, Kinnaird, STI, age 85.
f.Peter WILSON, coal miner, decd.
m.Isabella WILSON, ms BROWN, decd.
cod.senile decay.
sign. Alex PENMAN, son, occupier.
reg.1897, June 7th, Stenhousemuir, STI
----------------------------------------
Last Modified: 5 11 2005
Created: 1 4 2006
-
This is a lot of info and ties in with what I had already.
I have another child of Peter Wilson & Isobella Brown:
Charles Brown Wilson 29 Jul 1800 Larbert, Stirlingshire, Scotland
Thanks again
Andrew
-
Charles Brown Wilson married Margaret Peterson 1820 Larbert.
Janet Wilson married Robert Wilson (son of William WIlson & Farquhar Laing 1826 Falkirk)
David Wilson married Agnes Fyfe(Fife) 1829 Clackmannan
Cheers
Dano
-
many thanks. if you want the rest of my WILSON data please email at Moderator comment: e-mail address removed to prevent spamming and other abuse. Please use personal message system to exchange e-mail addresses. Thank you!
-
Hi All,
I top can help you all on this WILSON Lines,
Just email me at
Moderator Comment: email address removed to prevent spam and other abuses. Please use the secure personal message system to share email addresses and other personal material. Thank You
-
Hi Guys,
Your local obsessive graveyard wanderer here!
In Larbert Old Parish Churchyard are the following graves:
(Not necessarily the burial place of the people mentioned in the inscriptions as the older stones don't give any more details other than names. Where there is a year inscribed on the stone, again not necessarily either one of the couple's date of death but could be when the Lair was purchased or the date of death for one of their children)
Robert Wislon and Isobel Laird
(1853) John Penman and Ann Wilson
(1839) Peter Wilson and Agnes Rankine
Robert Wilson and Margaret Rae (Margaret died 19th March 1871 aged 25 and a child who died in infancy)
There are many more Wilsons and Penmans in the same Churchyard.
Anne
-
This is my 2nd post (although I don't see my 1st listed yet.) Do any of you know the parents of Margaret Patterson, the wife of Charles Brown Wilson?
-
ok; i see my 1st post didn't take. i am a descendant of Robert Wilson, the eldest son and middle child of Charles Brown Wilson & Margaret Patterson. i am definitely thrilled to find so many new cousins through the reading of this one thread--and to verify 3 generations farther back on the Brown and Wilson lines. Hope to learn even more as i am able to make contact with those of you who also descend from his grandparents--and it sounds like there may be quite a few of us. Robert emigrated with his younger brother Peter and their respective wives from Clackmannan to America in 1848 with several other members of the LDS Church which they had joined in Clackmannan. I believe his mother was born in Clackmannan and that the family returned to her native county after Charles Brown Wilson died (sometime before an assumed 2nd marriage to Alexander Fife in 1833 Clackmannan.) One question has always puzzled the descendants of this emigrant, Robert Wilson. Once in America he went by the name Robert Knox Wilson. Might anybody have a clue as to why somebody would add this middle name (which, as far as I can tell, has no genealogical significance)?
-
I am not sure I have the answer to your question, but I am also researching Robert K. Wilson. I actually live about 15 minutes from teh town he settled in. My 3x g-grandfather was one of the people he travelled with to Utah.
I would love to compare notes with you!
Amy
-
I am intrested to find out more information on your clackmannan Pattersons .....I am looking for more information regarding Alexander Patterson b abt 1809 of Dollar m in Dollar 1834 to Jane Ross b 18 children also born in Dollar dau Christian son George Migrated to Australia
1839 with Simpsons & Anderson families connected to Montgomery & Ross in Edinburgh
Do you have an Alexander or any Dollar Pattersons...
Regards Joanofacre
-
I don't find an Alexander Paterson that matches your criteria; however, looking up the extracted parish records in familysearch.com I did find a likely candidate for his wife. jean Ross was b 25 Apr 1815 and christened 5 days later in Dollar, Clackmannan, the daughter of John Ross & Christian Hutcheson. she had an elder sister Isabel chr 22 Nov 1812, a younger sister Catherine chr 30 Apr 1815 & one brother Hugh chr 1 Mar 1818, all in that same parish. John Ross md 9 Feb 1810 in this same parish to Christian Hutchison. Good luck!
-
Thanks for checking out for me ....Alexander migrated to south Australia with a extended family including mother in law sister in law, Isabella & her husband Archibald Simpson b Tullibody, and family Of Thomas Anderson & Agnes Gourley from Kettle, ...I have good info on them all once in SA, and a fair bit on Ross Family including some of the Ross children who stayed behind....just stuck on Alexander as I don't have date of birth to tie him into any of the many Alexander Pattersons who seemed to be born around the same time in Clackmannan.....I am sure some thing will turn up one day so I can tie him down..........
Thank you for checking out...
PS re the Knox middle name query ...could your relative be related to Scottish religious reformer and founder of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland John Knox (c. 1513 - 1572)....just a thought!
-
ok; i see my 1st post didn't take. i am a descendant of Robert Wilson, the eldest son and middle child of Charles Brown Wilson & Margaret Patterson. i am definitely thrilled to find so many new cousins through the reading of this one thread--and to verify 3 generations farther back on the Brown and Wilson lines. Hope to learn even more as i am able to make contact with those of you who also descend from his grandparents--and it sounds like there may be quite a few of us. Robert emigrated with his younger brother Peter and their respective wives from Clackmannan to America in 1848 with several other members of the LDS Church which they had joined in Clackmannan. I believe his mother was born in Clackmannan and that the family returned to her native county after Charles Brown Wilson died (sometime before an assumed 2nd marriage to Alexander Fife in 1833 Clackmannan.) One question has always puzzled the descendants of this emigrant, Robert Wilson. Once in America he went by the name Robert Knox Wilson. Might anybody have a clue as to why somebody would add this middle name (which, as far as I can tell, has no genealogical significance)?
-
Resurrecting an old and related post. Just wondering if anyone has any new or updated information to add to this.
So far I've traced my Scottish ancestry back to Robert Wilson and Isobel Laird with relative certainty. I have the following information for Robert and Isobel -
Robert Wilson
Isobel Laird
Birth: 28 Apr 1754, Falkirk, Stirlingshire
Marriage: about 1777, Larbert, Stirlingshire
Children: Peter, Girzel, William, Adam, Janet, Robert, Isobel, Robert, James, and
Margaret
I did not list any birth information for Robert because I'm confused at this point in time as to who his parents were. I've seen various references to James Wilson and Margaret Harrower, Patrick/Peter Wilson and Janet Gordon, and "Peter or Patrick" Wilson and Janet Gordon. I have the following information on the three couples -
James Wilson
Birth: about 1727, Tillicoultry, Clackmannanshire
Margaret Harrower
Birth: about 1731, Tillicoultry, Clackmannanshire
Marriage: 28 May 1752, Tillicoultry, Clackmannanshire
Patrick/Peter Wilson
Birth: about 1722, Cockpen, Midlothian
Janet Gordon
Birth: 1 Jun 1722
Baptism/Christening: 13 Jun 1722, Dalkeith, Midlothian
Marriage: 15 Apr 1743, Lasswade, Midlothian
"Peter or Patrick" Wilson
Birth: about 1731
Baptism/Christening: 17 Feb 1731, Muiravonside, Stirlingshire
Janet Gordon
Birth: about 1735, Muiravonside, Stirlingshire
Marriage: about 1755, Muiravonside, Stirlingshire
Does anyone have any idea which of those three couples were Robert Wilson's parents? I'm trying to trace my Scottish ancestry back as far as I can in an attempt to determine which clan the Wilson's that I'm related to are a part of. I've most often seen Wilson mentioned as a sept to Clan Gunn, Clan Innes, and Clan MacFarlane. Any help is appreciated!
Cheers, caliscot
-
Do you have any Gillespie Family of Denny in your Family as I do and some of the Family names are Familiar. My Family also have Wilsons in them as a Lynn-Wilson is my Cousin.
If I can help in any way then let me know.
Taker.
-
Don't suppose any of these people are known relatives.?
I believe i am related to some of them. They had Wilson relatives.
M.
-
Hi,
The picture shows Mary Duncan b1862 and her 7 surviving children. They all emigrated to Ontario in Canada. The father was James Gillespie b1857 - he died in Scotland in 1903, which is why he does not appear in the photograph.
I don't know which Wilson family they connect to but I do have a very tenuous link to these Gillespies via another branch of my family tree.
:)
-
I have a very Tenuous Link(I think to them as well through another branch of my Family. However the link with the Wilsons is through my Cousin who is a Wilson but my family is thorugh the Gillespie Line through Agnes and Robert Gillespie. However all the names on this post have some relationship with me.If i can contact you via e-mail I have a professionally researched tree which will be able to show you the link if you wish.My mum did it through someone in France where they live now.
M.
-
Hi Undertaker,
I have sent you a PM.
Regards
:)
-
Cheers for that.P.s. Margaret Harrower, would she have had a relative called Christine born in Alloa in about 1594 or something like that as have records in relation to something like that on another PDF I had done. My mum had that done by a professional researcher and that's about how far it goes back. Think it also has Fyfe Family when you go back as well.
M.
-
i have a Robert Laird and a Barbara Brown in Larbert.Robert born 29 October 1727 in Larbert who married in 1752 a Barbara Brown born in 1725 born in Muiravonside Stirling who's children were Alexander Laird and Elizabeth Russel.Alexander born in 1755in Larbert Stirling with Elizabeth born in 1759 in Larbert Stirling. They married in 1780. Their Children were John Laird and Jane Gardner. John born in 1788 in Larbert Stirling and Jane born in 1786 in Strilingshire.They married in 1808.Their Children were Alexander Laird born on 22 April 1808 who married Margaret Wilson in 1831. He died on 22nd May 1885.Margaret Wilson was born on 18 Feb 1810 in Campsie Stirling Scotland. Alexander was born in Plean St Ninians Stirling. Is this of any use.?
M.
-
Hi Dano,
I've just recently started using rootschat. It seems we have a couple of connections in common.
So I thought I'd say hello.
1) I'm a descendant of James Wilson & Agnes Aitken of Polmont via their son
Thomas Wilson married to Elizabeth Marshall.
My line goes like this...
their daughter Agnes Aitken Wilson married Thomas Brown
their son Charles Brown married Janet McMillan
Their daughter Agnes Wilson Brown married William Hebenton and were my grandparents
2) Going back to Thomas Wilson's wife Elizabeth Marshall.
She carried on her husbands carting business in Armadale after he left her a fairly young widow.
She was known as "coalie Leezie".
Her parents were Peter Marshall & Mary Hamilton.
Peter's parents were John Marshall & Elizabeth Wilson.
Elizabeth Wilson died in Greenock poorhouse in 1861 aged 88, her parents were Henry Wilson & Agnes/Ann Frew who wed in Muiravonside in 1769 (I cycled past there today lol!)
Henry Wilson & Agnew Frew had at least 6 children:
Janet (1769 Muiravonside)
Peter (1771 Larbert)
Elizabeth (my ancestor) (ca.1772-75 Larbert)
John (1784 Carriden)
Henry (1786 Carriden)
William (1790 Carriden)
-As their eldest son was Peter, an educated guess would mean Henry's father was a Peter Wilson
(hold that thought)
-I spied another couple in the Muiravonside registers.
Alexander Wilson & Janet Frew who married there in 1775.
There are large gaps between the baptisms of their children but they also had a Peter.
I'm wondering if it was a case of the Wilson brothers (Henry & Alexander) marrying the Frew sisters (Agnes/Ann & Janet)?
Looking for possible baptisms of an Alexander & Henry Wilson fathered by a Peter the most likely candidate I could find was Patrick/Peter Wilson & Janet Gordon.
Their son Henry born at Hillhead, Lasswade in 1747,
and son Alexander born at Hawthorden, Lasswade in 1752
As you probably know the youngest of the Wilson/Gordon family were born in Muiravonside in the early 1760s... linking the naming pattern with the places the Wilson/Frew marriages took place.
Reading of your descent from a Larbert branch of this WIlson family I would be really interested to compare notes and see what you make of these theories.
Oh, and by any chance have you ever looked at the marriage entry for Patrick/Peter Wilson and Janet Gordon in Lasswade in 1743? It doesn't seem to be available for viewing on scotlandspeople. I'm wondering if it would give any clues to the parish of origin of bride or groom if they were not both simply residents of the parish of Lasswade then.
I better stop for now
Best wishes,
George Hebenton
-
hi their just read your post re wilsons of larbert have posted on old stirling to see if they can help you ,you may wish to join this group as its all about the people of stirlings past regards david.
-
Peter Wilson (1778-1853), born in Larbert is my 3rd great grandfather. He married Isobel Brown. His father, Robert Wilson (b 9 Aug 1756) was married to Isobel Laird. I don't know her parents names, or anything about her. Does someone have information? Thanks. This is my first post.
-
Hi texaxscot
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Sources online have this info:
www.familycentral.net/index/family.cfm?ref1=6248:1493&ref2=6248:1494
http://hotchkissclan.org/gen/Records/INDIs/II22080.html
1851 Census:
Peter Wilson 74, Fireman
Isebell Wilson 75
Address: Red Row, Kinnaird, Lambert
Monica
-
From family trees on ancestry, Isobel shows as having died in 1862, after the start of official registration in Scotland (from 1855). The official source for BMDs and images in Scotlands is www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk There is a death showing for an Isobel Brown/Wilson in Larbert in 1862, aged 86. I am guessing this might be the source of information on Isobel's parents, which you can follow up to confirm.
On the 1861 census, there is an entry for an Isobel Wilson, 85, b. Larbert and living at Bark Of Byke in Larbert.
Monica
-
Thanks so much, Monica L. I missed the 1851 census, which shouldn't have happened because I belong to ancestry.com My line does go through David Wilson (born 18 Jun 1806). I haven't visited Scotland's people yet, but I plan to.
-
David's sister Ann, who looks to have married a John Penman. She died on 6 Jun 1897 in Larbert. On her death reg., her father Peter shows as a coal miner. You might find some monumental inscriptions for burials for the general family here www.memento-mori.co.uk which is particularly strong for the Stirlingshire area, including the Larbert cemeteries.
Monica
-
Thanks again, Monica L.
-
Hi. Am wholly new to this forum. And a bit lost. However, I note that Rbt. Wilson & Isabella Laird are my ancestors at 7 (?) generations. Their daughter Isabella married John Perrie who is my gt gt gt grandfather. The Perries (or Peerie in the family speak) were also from Larbert at that time. I have some information on them but all the information on the Wilsons is new to me and very interesting. I know that there were still Stirlingshire-Larbert framily links into the twentieth century. Any further information on Wilson/Perrie would be most welcome. Walter Perrie
-
My line comes through Peter Wilson - son of Robert Wilson & Isobel Laird; so I have almost no information, unfortunately, concerning their daughter Isabella and her husband, John Perrie. If you want information that I have and you are a member of ancestry.com, my tree is a public one and is named the Gale & Wilson Family Tree. Sorry, I can't be of more help.
-
Many thanks for taking the trouble to reply. Regards. WP
-
Hi Walter
This is my first time posting, but I am descended from Robert Perrie, whose parents were John Perrie and Isabella (Isobel) Wilson.
Robert was originally a coal miner, and later became a spirit merchant in Dalmarnock, Glasgow. Robert died in Glasgow in 1871.
Isabella Wilson also died in Glasgow in 1866.
Regards
Mary Alex
-
Dear Mary Alex,
Good to hear from you. We are very distant cousins since my descent is through Rbt's younger brother (James Macewan Perrie, my gt gt grandfather). I have Rbt as born in 1813 and James in 1821. Robt married Ann Robertson. The problem with tracing back beyond John P. and Isabella W took me years to solve. The solution was that John was 20 years older. I have no death record for him. He was the son of John P. & Janet Laing (of St. Ninian's parish & Larbert, respectively). The family were in the Stirling/Bannockburn area as far back as I can trace - to about 1650. Before that there are no parochial records. I live in Dunning - about 25 miles from Stirling. I can send you more information later when I have a moment. My email is *
With good wishes,
Walter Perrie.
ps. my line goes from me to James to Walter to James to James Macewan. Thence to John (Junior) (yr ancestor) to John to Robert (chr. 1706 @ St. N's) to John (chr.1676 @ St. N's) to William.
*See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
-
Mary Alex,
Thanks so much for the information on Robert Perrie. Isabella Wilson is my 3rd great grand aunt.
Best regards,
Walt
-
Hello again. If you are descended from Rbt P., Isabella Wilson is Robert Perrie's mother and therefore your direct ancestor - not an aunt. In Scots law and traditional usage, women could be known by their maiden names, which were not surrendered on marriage. So, not a gt x aunt but gt x mother. Best wishes - W.
-
I'm a descendant of Peter Wilson (my 3rd great grandfather) who is Isabella Wilson's brother! I'm not descended from the Perries.
-
I have a Barbara brown mother of alexander laird of larbert 1755 who married Elizabeth Russell in 1780 and they had john laird on 6th April 1788 who married Jane Gardner in 1808 and they had alexander laird who married margeret Wilson in 1831.alexander was from plean and Margaret from campsie. I am also related to harrower family and my cousin is a Wilson.
T.
-
Hi,
The Wilson-Laird connection, as seems characteristic of the time seems to cross several generations with Perrie/Pirie/Peerie. My direct connection is with Isobel Wilson bapt 11/10/1789, daughter of Rbt Wilson and Isobel Laird. In 1809 she marries John Pirrie - my gt x 3 grandfather. But without knowing the whole complex of relationships it is difficult to know how it came about. Geography and employment were the links and cross-sibling marriages seem to have been common - where 2 siblings of X marry two siblings (or cousins) of Y. Because social encounters did not usually extend beyond such groups. Best Regards - Walter Perrie
-
Hi,
Again, Isabela (Isobel) Wilson is my 3rd Great Aunt because she is Peter Wilson's sister and the daughter of Robert Wilson and Isobel Laird. Peter Wilson, son of Robert and Isobel Laird, is my 3rd great grandfather. Best regards,
Walt Gale
-
Hi Walter,
I'm related to the Perry family and would love to compare notes. I'll contact you off forum since I'm not connected to the Wilson family.
By the way, you might want to consider removing your email address from your post - it might attract a lot of spam.
Regards,
Lenagh
-
Thanks for the heads-up, Lenagh, on the e-mail address. However, I am directly related to the Wilsons. They are my line, not the Perry's - sorry.
Walt
-
Hi Walt,
You had me a bit confused for a minute. My post was actually in response to WPerrie - I should have been more specific. Thank you for responding.
Regards,
Lenagh
-
Hi, this is my first post so please excuse me if I've approached this from the wrong page, i.e. The Wilsons page.
I noticed that wperrie and texascot? (I think) wrote about Robert Perrie who married Ann Robertson in Lanarkshire, Scotland. I'm new at the whole genealogy thing and I'm tracing my husband's family back as his father is in his 80s and doesn't have any information prior to his own parents.
So far I have William Ralston married Marion Perrie (born 1838 or 1839) - I believe she had a brother Thomas, and that her parents were Robert Perrie and Ann Robertson.
This is where I've stopped :) I haven't been able to confirm that I have the right mother for Marion as I've found a couple of possible wives for Robert Perrie (both in fairly close geographical proximity to each other, one Lanarkshire and the other Stirlingshire). Can anyone help me confirm that I have the right parents? Any help would be great, thanks, J
-
Hi, thomo7, welcome to RootsChat!
According to the International Genealogical Index https://familysearch.org/search/collection/igi William Ralston and Marion Perrie were married on 30 December 1864 and had three sons, James, born 4 June 1865, William, born 1 March 1872, and Daniel, born 2 January 1874, all in Kilsyth.
Their marriage certificate will tell you the full names of both sets of parents, including their mothers' maiden names. You can view and download a digital image of the certificate at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk - it is pay-per-view, but reasonably priced. No need to speculate about Marion's parentage when there is an easily accessible original document that should give you the correct information.
In the 1881 census (I have a transcription of this on CD-ROM) William Ralston, 47, blacksmith, was living at 18 Brick Row, Kilsyth, with wife Marion, 45 and sons James, 15, Thomas, 12, William, 9 and Daniel, 7, all born in Kilsyth. You can view the original of this census at Scotland's People as above. (I have not yet found an index listing of Thomas' birth.)
The IGI also says that Marion, daughter of Robert Perrie and Ann Robertson, was baptised in Rutherglen on 11 February 1838. Therefore she would have been 43 on the date of the 1881 census. So unless both her age and her birthplace are wrong in the 1881 census, it seems unlikely that she is tthe wife of William Ralston.
See how you get on with that marriage certificate, and come back to us with any more questions.
-
Hi Forfarian,
Thanks for the welcome and the information. I haven't looked at the marriage certificate yet but will do shortly. Just a little confused (yes, already!)
The William Ralston you referred to in your first paragraph born 06/10/1833 and married 30/12/1864 to Marion Perrie, I have found listings of other children. In addition to the three you mentioned, I have another son William, 11 Oct 1866 died 11 Apr 1869, Alexander 11 Jan 1869, & Agnes 4 Oct 1870 died 18 May 1871. All born in Kilsyth.
If William was born in 1833 and was 47 as you mentioned in the 1881 census, then his wife Marion Perrie born 1 Feb 1838 (christened 11 Feb 1838, Rutherglen) would have been 43 at the time of the census. I haven't found a Thomas either! Perhaps a Thomas Alexander or Alexander Thomas?
Re your paragraph 4, it seems to make sense that the Marion Perrie1 Feb 1838 was married to William Ralston (the older).
The youngest son, Daniel 02 Jan 1874 is the son in our line - my husband's g g gf.
I'll have a look at the marriage certificate and see if it all comes clear! Thanks again for your help,
J
-
Thanks for the welcome and the information.
It's a pleasure
Just a little confused (yes, already!)
I'm not surprised :)
The William Ralston you referred to in your first paragraph born 06/10/1833 and married 30/12/1864 to Marion Perrie, I have found listings of other children. In addition to the three you mentioned, I have another son William, 11 Oct 1866 died 11 Apr 1869, Alexander 11 Jan 1869, & Agnes 4 Oct 1870 died 18 May 1871. All born in Kilsyth.
Yes, I see them all in the IGI now - mother's surname spelled Pirrie. I would have expected the IGI to equate Pir(r)i/e(y) with Per(r)i/e(y).
If William was born in 1833 and was 47 as you mentioned in the 1881 census, then his wife Marion Perrie born 1 Feb 1838 (christened 11 Feb 1838, Rutherglen) would have been 43 at the time of the census. I haven't found a Thomas either! Perhaps a Thomas Alexander or Alexander Thomas? Re your paragraph 4, it seems to make sense that the Marion Perrie 1 Feb 1838 was married to William Ralston (the older)
No, it does not make sense if the census is correct and she was born in Kilsyth. Don't forget that not everyone before 1855 is in the records - she could be one of the many whose birth and baptism record just doesn't exist.
I'll have a look at the marriage certificate and see if it all comes clear!
It will certainly sort out that question - but every answer brings at least two new questions in its wake ;)
I am now speculating, but I think you will find that William Ralston was the son of James Ralston and his wife Mary Munro. The transcription of the 1851 census at http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl lists a family of lock keepers in Kilsyth, parents James and Mary and eight children including a 17-year-old William, all born in Kilsyth except Mary. The same family is at Gavale in Kilsyth in 1841, with some non-matching ages. They look approximately like the family of James R and Mary Munro, six of whom are listed in the IGI. However they are in the 'community contributed' section of the IGI, which has a lot of unreliable misinformation in it, so you really need to check for original records and not take this information at face value.
-
Hello to all,
The Robert Perrie who married Ann Robertson was born in Larbert in 1813 and was the fourth? child of John (Junior) Perrie (family pronunciation was always as in Peerie) and Isabella Wilson. I am a fifth generation direct descendant of that John Perrie. His father was that John Perrie (Peery) who married Janet Laing in 1758 in Larbert. The line then goes back via Robert (Pirrie/Perrie) christened 1706 in St. Ninian's to another John (1676) and then (probably) to William. Best regards to all - Walter Perrie
-
Thanks for your information w perrie and good luck to thomo7. :)
-
Hi,
Ages as given in census returns are often unreliable. The naming sequence of the Ralston / Perrie marriage is broadly right for the Perrie side ; Daniel , James, Thomas and William were all family names. And the James would also fit with the Ralston side. best wishes - W.P.
-
The naming sequence of the Ralston / Perrie marriage is broadly right for the Perrie side ; Daniel , James, Thomas and William were all family names.
Daniel and to a lesser extent Thomas are useful for tracking the naming tradition, but Alexander, James, John and William are so common that they are not really useful from that point of view - almost every family with enough sons has one of each of those!
-
Hi Thomo7,
Marion Perrie who married William Ralston was the daughter of William Perrie and Agnes Perrie or Petrie according to her DC which you’ll find on a tree on Ancestry.
Marion Perrie, the daughter of Robert Perrie and Ann Robertson married William Mackain Bruce. You will find their marriage and five children on familysearch.
If you look here http://www.memento-mori.co.uk/32.pdf you will find the Perrie and Bruce families in Glasgow Eastern Necropolis (Janefield Cemetery).
-
Hi,
John Perrie & Isabella Wilson had two children christened William; one in Barony in 1820, the other in New Monkland (Airdrie), 7.5.1831-1887, This Wm Perrie of 1831 married Mgt Marshall and had nine children.
Best Regards W.P.
-
Hi Wperrie, Lenagh & Forfarian,
It's been a while! Finally, back in action I have located the copy of the Marriage Cert of William Ralston (dob 6 Oct 1833) and Marion Perrie (dob 1 Feb 1838), married 30 Dec 1864.
Maron's parents are William Perrie (cotton weaver) dec and Agnes Perrie, ms Perrie dec! The spelling is consistent on this Cert.
William Ralston's parents are James Ralston (tailor) and Elizabeth R, ms Steel.
James Ralston and Elizabeth Steel were married in Kilsyth 22 Dec 1811.
From here I have found a series of 1841, 1851 & 1861 census which have the growing family,
Unfortunately, the ages of the parents are inconsistent.
e.g in 1841 James ('taylor') and Elizabeth are both 40!
in 1851 James is still a tailor and is 58, Elizabeth 53
in 1861 James is 75, tailor and Elizabeth 68 tailor's wife.
Using this I'm assuming that James birth would be somewhere between 1775 & 1795. I don't know how common it would be for a man to marry at 16 Years old but I figured that would be a minimum.
If anyone has more information regarding James' birth or information regarding William and Agnes Perrie that would be great.
Thanks :)
Note; so far the Ralstons are all in Kilsyth. different streets but same town.
-
I don't know how common it would be for a man to marry at 16 Years old but I figured that would be a minimum.
Very uncommon indeed. The legal minimum age for a man was 14 but it's almost unheard of. Most men were in their middle 20s when they married.
Have you got James' and Elizabeth's death certificates?
-
Thanks for the reply & information Forfarian!
14 is young indeed. I have located several possibilities for James' birth but for Death certificates so far the most likely one looks to be wrong as the widow is a Margaret Smelling and the location was Dennistoun in burgh of Glasgow (closest I could find to Kilsyth).
I will check again for the death certificates and let you know asap :) Thanks
-
Hmmm.
Elizabeth Ralston, widow of James Ralston, tailor, died in Kilsyth in 1876, parents James Steel, cotton weaver, and Mary Symmington. Informant William R, son.Her age is given as 63, which is obviously impossible if she was married in 1811.
There is an Elizabeth Ralston, widow, in the 1871 census in Kilsyth, aged 60, with a 24-year-old son Walter Hamilton, and in the 1861, aged 51, with son Walter H, 14. However as James Ralston and his wife Elizabeth are also in Kilsyth in the 1861, this has to be a different Elizabeth Ralston. And she doesn't seem to have had a son named William. In 1851 she is Elizabeth McAully, widow, 40, with son Walter Hamilton, 4, and daughter Jean Ralston, 14 ??? In 1841 she is Elizabeth Ralston, 25, with William Ralston, 30 and Jean Ralston, 4. So apart from her age she looks like a complete red herring.
But is it credible that two Elizabeth Steels would be married to two James Ralstons, both weavers, and both living in Kilsyth at the same time?
And if not, who made what error and why?
-
Thanks Forfarian, I was confused before!
The first Elisabeth you mention, I believe is the correct one but yes, it's weird that there is more than one. Although, (not that odd) this family not only name their children after the previous generation but almost every sibling does the same list of names.
I have Elisabeth (various spellings) Steel and James Ralston marriage 22 Dec 1811 from cert.
He was deceased by 30 Dec 1864 (son Williams marriage) but was present from my records in the 1861 census as a tailor and living in Old Town, Kilsyth.
The next page has son William R 26, Robert 24, Walter 21 and four grandchildren James, Elizabeth, Robert and Mary. (Possibly children of Son Alexander who died at age 27).The 'parents' are listed as Head and wife aged 75 and 68 (I did wonder if they could be grandparents but then the son would be listed as grandson I guess).
The children's ages are fairly consistent with the '41, '51 and '61 Census'.
In 1851 parents are 58 and 53 respectively, James is a tailor, four sons are weavers.
In 1841 parents are 40 and 40 respectively, James is a tailor and children include daughters, Jean 15, Elisabeth 14, Alex 12, Daniel 9, William 7, Robert 4 & Walter 7mths.
I have James Ralstons death cert. married to Elisabeth Steel and parents William R (cotton weaver) and Janet Young. He died in June 1864 aged 76. I can presume (with some degree of error) that he was born in 1788.
When you look at the ages listed in the census, they were married in 1811 and didn't appear to have children for the first 15 years of their marriage. then had seven children.
I can only assume that their ages on census were a) pure stubbornness in not providing accurate info (haha), b) they really didn't keep track of their own ages, or c) they may have had work or social reasons for providing odd ages...
re; James birth in 1788, I have located a few options around that time but haven't found one with parents William and Janet or variants yet.
Cheers for now, JT
-
Hi Forfarian,
Still struggling along :)
...
In 1841 she is Elizabeth Ralston, 25, with William Ralston, 30 and Jean Ralston, 4.
I believe the 1841 Census Elizabeth Ralston, 25 etc is the Elisabeth Ralston I'm looking for. Her spelling of Elisabeth or Elizabeth varies from doc to doc and her age in all Census are whacko (ie very inconsistent) but the children's ages are all fairly consistent.
Not sure about the other Elizabeth, and not sure about who her parents were but not so weird for common names like Elizabeth and James, even Ralston to be duplicated.
Our Elisabeth's death cert doesn't indicate a second marriage at all so presuming that's correct, we're good so far.
What I haven't found is either James Ralston's or Elisabeth Steel's birthdays inspite of having both of their parents' names and a rough idea of birth years.
I also haven't been able to locate a marriage for William Ralston and Janet Young.
Cheers, JT
-
Her spelling of Elisabeth or Elizabeth varies from doc to doc
Don't read anything into that. She may not have had any particular notion of how to spell her name. It was how the person writing it down thought it should be spelled.
her age in all Census are whacko (ie very inconsistent)
Bear in mind that in 1841 adults' ages were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years so she could have been any age from 25 to 29, assuming her age is accurate of course.
What I haven't found is either James Ralston's or Elisabeth Steel's birthdays inspite of having both of their parents' names and a rough idea of birth years.
I also haven't been able to locate a marriage for William Ralston and Janet Young.
They are probably some of the many events of which the record, if there ever was one, has not survived. If it's not on Scotland's People the chance of a surviving record is small, and your chance of finding it is even smaller.
-
Hi Lenagh,
Just checking that you are still being notified on this topic.
Regards
Sarah :)
-
Hi Sarah,
i received an email notification re this comment. Thanks for that, time, family and other distraction are slowing down my time!
Thanks also to Forfarian for the comment so long ago which i didn't see for some reason. I'll be back on the trail one day (soon) hopefully. Cheers and thanks