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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: valerie1 on Saturday 18 March 06 12:59 GMT (UK)
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HI
I AM LOOKING TO GET A FEEL OF EASTBOURNE IN 1936, THE OCKLYNGE AREA.
I HAVE FOUND MY RELATIVES GRAVES IN THE ABOVE CEMETERY, BUT HAVE NO IDEA OF THE ADDRESS THEY CAME FROM,ANY ONE KNOW HOW I WOULD FIND THIS OUT.THEY DIED IN MARCH 1935 AND MAY 1936THEY WERE JOSEPHINE JALLAND AND ALFRED GIBSON JALLAND.
IS THERE A MAP I CAN LOOK AT FOR THIS TIME WAS THIS AREA A PROSPEROUS ONE?
THANKS
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Me again Valerie,
There is an Eastbourne History Society, I'm sure they might give you some information about Ocklynge or suggest some books that might give you a flavour of the village in the 30s,
http://www.eastbournehistory.org.uk/publications/index.html
Jane
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Hi,
Ocklynge cemetery was (I think) a town cemetery rather than one linked with a church. It served all of Eastbourne and at that time most probably was the main burial ground for all of Eastbourne.
In the 1930 Kelly's Directory there is a Mrs Jalland listed as living at 11 Granville Road. I don't know whether this was your Jallands or not but the fact that she was listed in the Private Residents portion may point to some level of prosperity. I would also assume that they were prosperous since Alfred was a graduate of Cambridge University.
After 1861 Alfred seems to have disappeared from the census. Any idea where he was?
Regards
Mark
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Wow Mark this I did not know, he was married to my grandmothers sister and I really do not know much about him.
I have seen a business card of his which states his name and an address of 41 Herbert road SW9, I have been trying to get some leads on this but no luck until now.
How did you come by this infomation?
Thanks so much I will go back to my Irish roots to see if I can place him, maybe he was at Herbert Road London, do you know what took at Cambridge we allways thought he was a doctor of something.
Thanks again
Valerie
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Valerie,
The information came from several sources. The information about Ocklynge came from personal knowledge (I grew up in Eastbourne and have many relatives buried there). The information from the Kelly's directory came from a CD that I have and the information regarding his attendance at Cambridge came from a major subscription website.
Here's a bit more information. In Mar Q 1884, Jeannie Josephine D'E Burns married Alfred Gibson Jalland in Chorlton District, Lancashire. I assume that Jeannie Josephine was your grandmother's sister.
Alfred Gibson Jalland was admitted to Sidney College, Cambridge in October 1879, matriculated (was formally admitted to the University) in Michelmas term 1879 and migrated to Downing College on Jan 25 1883.
In 1861, Alfred G Jalland was age 7 months and living with his family at Castle Gate, Nottingham.
RG9/2468/59/11
Robert Jalland; Head; age 60; Architect and Lawyer; b Nottingham
Mary Jalland; Wife; age 30; b Carleton Le Moorland, Lincs
Catherine C Jalland; Daughter; age 10; b Nottingham
Albert G Jalland; Son; age 7 months; b Nottingham
Elizabeth Worlridge; Servant; age 17; General Servant; b Arnold, Notts
Robert Jalland was born in abt 1801 in Nottingham.
I think that this was the marriage of his grandparents:
Upton, Notts
Robert Jalland, p. Rolleston, and Elizabeth Gibson, lic. 07 Jul 1762
The licence is:
06 Jul 1762 Robert Jalland, of Rolleston, farmer, aged above 31, bach., & Elizabeth Gibson, of Upton, spr., aged above 28; at Upton.
There is an Ancestry World Tree entry for Robert Jalland that gives his ancestors. Roberts first wife was Jane Doyle and his second wife was Mary Carr.
The mention of Herbert St in London was interesting, since in 1881, Jeannie Burns was living at 2 Herbert St, London with her parents Edward and Margaret and brother Edward. However, Jeannie was only 10 at that time which would mean that she was only 14 when she married Alfred. Something doesn't seem correct there. This may just be a coincidence.
If you provide some details of your grandmother (name, date and place of birth), I may be able to find some more information.
Best Wishes
Mark
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??? ??? ??? Are we talking 1936 or 1836 here???
A very puzzled Jane ???
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Jane,
I'm pretty sure that we are talking about a burial in Ocklynge Cemetery in 1936. I think that Ocklynge cemetery was first used in the late 1850s (1856 Formation of a Burial Board at Ocklynge Cemetery). I have traced Albert Jalland to his birth in 1860 and was able to find details of his father Robert (b 1801) and his grandfather (also Robert) - hence the dates in the 1700s.
Regards
Mark
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::) Took me a while but I've got it now!
Jane
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Hello Mark
What can I say but a great big thank you for the fantastic infomation, it would have taken me for ever to come up with all that how fantastic
I started this for my first cousin in Dublin and I am now going back for more info so will be in touch .
You know the more i get into family history it seems to me that if you came from a family with money which means education you can find out so much more about your family my other side coming from Wales with a name like Davies and being poor as church mice and all there births marrages and deaths conducted in chapels makes them so hard to trace.
Thank you so much
Valerie
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Hi Mark
Well it turns out that this was not my grandmothers sister, but my grandmothers aunt, my cousin was so greatfull for the info but insists that Alfred was working in Harley Street but he was known as Mr and not Dr, I an trying to find his will as I believe my grandmother Jane O'Brien nee Horan of Dublin benefited from this as she did own her own house, which was a rare thing in the early 1900,s unless you came from money.
Any way my cousin asked me to pass on there thanks
Best regards
Valerie
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Dear Valerie,
i would be grateful for information regarding Jeannie Burns. The saga surrounding her life with James Poole Wagstaff at Potton Manor was much talked about and she was regarded as a great benefactor to the village folk. I have known for a number of years that she died in Eastbourne but only these last few days found exact details, and more information regarding her husband, Alfred Gibson Jalland.
As a result of proving the connection between the various branches of my Wagstaff family here in Bedfordshire, i was intrigued to read the various newspaper reports and the contest for the Wagstaff fortune the James had bestowed on her and although revoked, the trial judge allowed her to inherit as "his common law" wife.
Roger
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Hello Roger,
Got your message and will ask my cousin if he has any more info for you, I may have missed something but you speak of James ? should I know this name.
I think my cousin will be intrested in you message he has always wondered about our grandmothers luck, to own a small house in Dublin when times were hard, we knew that one of her relations had sent the money home or left it to her.
Regards Val
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The James that I mentioned was a distant relative on my mother's side of the Wagstaff family. He had met Alfred Gibson Jalland's wife, who later went to his home as Housekeeper. Some months later her persuaded her to marry him, both knowing of her previous marriage. They lived as man and wife until his death in 1903, she inheriting his fortune of approx £174.000. In 1906 she confessed to bigamy and the following year the court case was heard regarding the contesting of the will by James's cousins. The judge found in her favour and on her death she left £50,000.
I found all of these details a few years after starting my researches into my mother's Wagstaff family.
Its only recently that i found the details of her death and now the details of her husband's death and their burial at Eastbourne. I had been told that she died at the Grand Hotel, Eastbourne but had no idea that she had reverted to her proper married name of Jalland. ( I do have details of the court proceedings and a copy of James Poole Wagstaff's will. Also the case made local and national headlines. I have some copies of the newspaper reports too) She was well thought of in the village of Potton, and it would be fantastic if your cousin has photographs of her and Alfred that could be copied. I would like to pass copies to Potton Historical Society who were so helpful with my initial inquiries in the 1970's. I began my researches in 1965, but since my retirement in 2007 have been spending more time to fill in gaps and make further progress.
If I can be of help in any way, do let me know.
Roger.
PS. James and his wife had a daughter but she died after a few months. There is a monument to her in Potton Churchyard.
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Valerie,
The Jalland mystery seems to be continuing. I have found Alfred Gibson Jalland and his wife Josephine, in the 1911 Census, living at 65 De Parys Avenue, Bedford. With them is an adopted daughter, Dorothy Josephine Wagstaff, aged 11 years, born in Liverpool.
Roger.
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Hi Roger,
Before calling Dublin I need to get my head around this mystery, are you saying Josephine was married once before she married Alfred?
Your relative knew this and was happy to live as man and wife, if she was married before was it to an Irish man.
Now your second post has turned up and I am very confused (this is not hard for me) LOL.
If you send me a list of questions I will be happy to put them to my cousin for answers and will ask about a photo but they asked me to find out about Alfred as they did not know much about him they found a business card in one of Josephines relatives house some years ago, I expect they know more about Josephine as she was our relatives
I love family history, do you think she said Alfred was dead then got involved took the money and went back to Alfred how did James die ?
We are a good catholic family you know so don't want any skeletons turning up Ha Ha.
What you going to turn up next, I have kinda stop ed my family history so many brick walls but you are wetting my appetite again.
Noted you live in Bedford I only live about 15 miles from there, keep me updated not contacting Dublin yet need story straight in my mind.
Regards Val
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When James met her was she a widow of Alfred ?
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Hello Valerie, Well, if you're 15 miles from bedford, i am just about 8 miles from bedford - living close to Northill, where my Wagstaffs moved to, from Potton.
I don't appear to be able to send you a link so that you can read one of the online articles that will give you the basic details of the saga.
Jane Josephine met James Wagstaff after she had her husband had parted. She told James that alfred left her on their wedding night..... the marriage between james and josephine is recorded at St George's Church, Bloomsbury, 21 December.
I am not sure if its allowed to add an email address here, but I can be reached through the website chicksandspriory.co.uk as I am the chairman and historian of the friends of chicksands priory.
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You asked me about questions, so here goes.
i would like to know the parentage of Jane Josephine Burns to add to the family tree, and more especially if there exists any photographs of her and Alfred G. Jalland that i could have a copy of.
I have not found a photograph of James Poole Wagstaff so far.
Does your cousin know what happened to his aunt between, say for example, 1911 and 1935 when she died?
I would have presumed that any part of the Wagstaff fortune which was left in 1935, would have gone to the male heirs of James Wagstaff.
To be honest, anything that your cousin cares to share with me would be splendid. I can still hardly believe that after all these years information is coming up.
i am now wondering what happened to the adopted daughter - the name of Wagstaff suggests that the child was adopted after James's death in 1903 and before Josephine reverted to her real married name, Jalland.
Have you been to Eastbourne, and is there a gravestone in the cemetary? I certainly will have to visit the place for myself as soon as I can.
James was not Catholic, but a member of the Church of England.
From what I understand of Mrs Jalland, and of the good works that she did, certainly in Potton if not elsewhere, that she was in fact responsible for providing the funds for your relative to buy the house in Ireland. She was known in the district as "Lady Bountiful".
Best wishes,
Roger.
With best wishes,
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Hi Roger and Val,
Hopefully, I'm not going to confuse you more. Here are details of the administration of Alfred's will.
Jalland Alfred Gibson of 41 Herbert Road, Wimbledon Surrey died 7 May 1936 at 65 Leamington Avenue Morden Surrey. Administration London 19 January (1938) to R. N. Limited. Effects 461 pounds 4s 1d.
The probate details for Josephine are as follows:
Jalland Josephine of 11 Granville Road Eastbourne (wife of Alfred Gibson Jalland) died 2 March 1935. Probate London 1 July to Thomas David Reeve Solicitor. Effects 50026 pounds 14s 8d.
Regards
Mark
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thank you mark. just hope that josephine's will may clarify a few things and fill in more gaps.
best wishes,
Roger.
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Valerie,
It may interest you to know about the very recent discovery - Alfred and Josephine were living in Bedford, 1911, with an adopted daughter - named Dorothy Josephine Wagstaff, born in Liverpool.
If this child had been adopted during the lifetime of James Poole Wagstaff, i rather think that some notice of this would have appeared in his Will, as a codicil. I am assuming that the child was adopted by Josephine between 1903-1906, before she reverted to her married name of Jalland.
There is also a marriage in Bedford, 1941 of a Dorothy Josephine Wagstaff marrying Charles Leslie Crowsley. I will see what i can find out from the Bedford newspapers for 1941, and if need be get the marriagei certificate.
best wishes,
Roger
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More information on R.N. Limited
RN Limited is a private nominee company that administers, on behalf of HMRC, an open- ended legal mortgage or charge secured on the property until it can be sold when the taxpayer vacates or dies.
HMRC must agree to an open-ended legal mortgage or charge but once this is agreed no money changes hands and no term is stated in the mortgage agreement.
The taxpayer makes no repayments during their lifetime and the Exchequer receives no money until the property is sold, usually after the taxpayer's death.
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What started out as a simple inquiry regarding Ocklynge cemetery has turned into a most fascinating story that has had an impact on the law (the definition of a widow) and an interesting insight (at least for me!) into the kind of news stories that were reported in New Zealand in the early 1900s. The court case regarding the contested will is reported in several newspapers in New Zealand (and no doubt elsewhere but some of the New Zealand newspapers are available on-line). The reports in the newspapers seem to have sensationalized the events. For example, the Nelson Evening Post of 15 May 1907 implies that Alfred Jalland sold his wife to Wagstaff for 25 pounds!
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thank you for your two messages. i have not found the latter newspaper report you mentioned
; the details regarding your 2nd message is interesting. I hope that his wife's will sheds light on the tnen situation. As you say it is fascinating how things are moving along.
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Hello everyone. From what my historian cousin tells me, I believe this Dorothy Josephine Byrne who married Jalland and Wagstaff is a relative of mine. In the 1930s my grandmother Mary Elizabeth (Molly) Byrne (and her sister Jane "Jenny", and brother Daniel) each inherited 2500 pounds from a rich aunt. This enabled my grandmother to get married and buy her home in Dublin. Only the term "rich aunt" was used with regards to Josephine so I am unsure if she was an aunt or a great aunt of my grandmother. My grandmother's father, Daniel Byrne, was born abt 1882 and, from what I can see, Josephine was born around 1862. To me this could either be sister or aunt as it seemed common for people in that era to have children over a period of twenty years. The fact that Josephine had 50,000 pounds when she died and that a lot of it went to lawyers and such, 2500 pounds seems a lot of money to leave to great-nephews and nieces, so currently I am leaning towards Josephine being my grandmother's aunt but I have yet to find any proof. Any thoughts, comments, or info would be much appreciated!
David
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David2012
Just recently I’ve been investigating Josephine Jalland and it turns out that she is my GG aunt as she was Jane Horan aunt your grandmother Mary was my grandmothers Jane sister.
Would you be interested in chatting.
It would seem we are 2nd cousins ?
Regards Val