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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Sutherland => Topic started by: Donald NZ on Tuesday 28 March 06 04:51 BST (UK)
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This new thread was initially commenced through the post of “Andy_smed, Durness Parish Register”. As the subject has become more ongoing it has now been given its own thread, with a view to discovering a little more information about Donald Mackay of Clashneach, (Claiseneach) and his second wife Mary Mackay, daughter of John of Clashneach, also of Muisel, factor to Lord Reay and by all accounts a wealthy cattle dealer.
Thank you Andy for your assistance and thanks to Ian for his several responses:
The following is the thread background
Reply #121 on: Saturday 11 March 06 17:27 GMT (UK)
Donald NZ,
Are you still looking for Donald Mackay of Clasneach, Clashneach, or Claiseneach?
I came across one yesterday while I was reading Ian Grimble's book, [/i]The World of Rob Donn, , my 7 x g grandfather.
It doesn't help much; "Early in 1757 the minister [Macdonald] happened to be visiting Donald Mackay of Claiseneach in Durness, whose wife Barbara was a daughter of Kenneth Sutherland of Keoldale and their son Captain George a servant of the East India Company."
I think Barbara was actually a sister of Kenneth Sutherland, the manager of Lord Reay's Durness barony.
There is another reference to a Donald Mackay of Clasneach in the genealogy of the Skerray Mackays in the Book of Mackay. He married Mary, a daughter of John of Clasneach.
It is not clear from the narative that John had any activity in Clasneach. He was otherwise known as Iain macEachainn [the second son of Hector Mackay of Skerray, son of John Mackay of Skerray, son of Hugh Mackay of Strathy] and was the factor for the 3rd Lord Reay at Muisel. He was also the mentor for Rob Donn, whom he hired as a cowherd.
Ian
Reply #123 on: Sunday 12 March 06 04:17 GMT (UK)
Donald,
I came across a little more information about Donald Mackay of Clasneach, hiding in the genealogy of the Sandwood Mackays.
The Hon. Charles Mackay, son of Donald 1st Lord Reay by his 3rd wife, had 3 sons and 2 daughters, the younger daughter being Margaret. She married John Sutherland of Keoldale and they had 2 children, (1) Kenneth Sutherland [who, as previously mentioned, became the manager of Lord Reay's Durness barony], and (2) Barbara Sutherland, who married Donald Mackay of Clasneach. They had 3 children: George [already mentioned]; Marion who married John Mackay, Borley; and Mary who married Neil Morrison, Kylestrome.
The patronymic in Mary's baptismal registration is helpful but, unfortunately, the Book of Mackay does not list any "issue" for George., nor does "The History of the House and Clan of Mackay".
Ian
Reply #126 on: Thursday 16 March 06 05:29 GMT (UK)
Hello Ian
Your comment; I think Barbara was actually a sister of Kenneth Sutherland, the manager of Lord Reay's Durness barony.
Re; Barbara Sutherland, m Donald Mackay of Clashneach; who was her father?? John or Kenneth??
“A History of the House & Clan of Mackay”1829, page 572, has “Isobella …. She married a gentleman of the name of Sutherland, (Kenneth of Keoldale ?) that the question mark is actually written indicates “Robert Mackay” the writer to be unsure of the individual.
(Isobella referring to John of Clashneach daughter).
In “The Book of Mackay” by Angus Mackay, published 1906, page 315, he states “Isobel married John, son of Kenneth Sutherland of Keoldale”.
Page 330v, states; Margaret married John Sutherland of Keoldale, issue two:- Kenneth, m his cousin Catherine, dau of Robert Mackay, tutor of Farr, and had a son John who m Isobel, dau. of John Mackay of Clashneach” and “Barbara Sutherland m Donald Mackay, Clashneach”
“World of Rob Donn”.published 1999, Ian Grimble quotes Barbara as a daughter of Kenneth, and seems quite emphatic about it as it is fully written out in the index, page 302,
Grimble has; John (Iain Mac Choinnich) son of Kenneth as m Isobel (page 97-98 & 302)
Page 67; Kenneth,… son of the tutors sister Margaret and also married to the Tutors daughter Catherine.
"The Chiefs of Clan Mackay and Their Cadets." by John Barth page 83, 28.3.Isobel Mackay, m.(her cousin) John Sutherland, son of Kenneth Sutherland, in Keoldale, parish of Durness, co Sutherland, by his wife, Catherine Mackay, dau of Robert Mackay, tutor of Farr.
The latter two writers have the advantage of being able to resource the earlier research books as well as a wider range of documentation. Regardless I would like some confirmed dates on these three generations as a method to confirm or otherwise whether Barbara was son of Kenneth or brother to Kenneth.
Isobel Mackay died 9th. May 1748 at Keoldale, Sutherland, Scotland. Age abt 23yrs = botn abt. 1725.Her husband John Sutherland died 1 o'clock 18th. May 1748, at Keoldale and buried at Balnakil, Sutherland, Scotland
John Sutherland was born abt.1680 and Margaret Mackay abt. 1685, these two about dates I recorded but did not at the time keep a record of how this was calculated, so the dates must be regarded as purely speculative. Hopefully someone can add further information.
Donald NZ
end of part 1
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part 2
Reply #127 on: Thursday 16 March 06 08:08 GMT (UK)
Hello Ian
Donald first married Barbara Sutherland, they had five children, Cpt. George b.abt 1727: Margaret b. abt. 1726, d.29/9/1805: Catherine: Margaret b. abt 1725: Marian b. abt 1729. His second marriage was to Mary Mackay
Ian as you appear to have Ian Grimbles, “The World of Rob Donn”. See page 212, there is reference that to me indicates the period when Donald and Barbara were splitting up. There is also reference to Rev. Murdo Macdonald using the term Uncle Kenneth, in reference to Barbara’s brother, when speaking of Barbara’s son Cpt. George. (this particular page I consider, makes Grimble’s deduction of Barbara being daughter of Kenneth to be wrong).
Donald went on to marry Mary daughter of Iain macEachainn of Muiseal in Strathmore, factor to the 3rd Lord Reay also his third cousin and a large dealer of cattle, reputedly wealthy, but best remembered for taking Rob Donn into his family.
Iain has been recorded in numerous “Contract of Wadset, Tacks, Sasines and other registered articles”, usually with the title of John Mackay of Clashneach.
Donald Mackay of Clashneach and John’s daughter Mary are recorded as having children, as yet I have not found a record of a named child or time frame. I have found reference that Donald and Mary retired to Muiseal, also that it would appear their eldest son was John, who at some stage lived in Melness and the second son was James. Also yet to confirm that Donald was the son of William oig. Mary may have been born abt 1730.
There is also a mention in Ian Grimbles, :The World of Rob Donn” of Donald of the Lugs (cut off cows ear markings) The reference is that Mary was married to this Donald of the Lugs, who appears not to be Donald of Clashneach, so it is possible Mary married twice, to two Donald Mackay's
Ian, I would certainly be appreciative if you are able to throw further enlightenment on Donald, Barbara and Mary.
Re: Reply #123 on: Sunday 12 March 06 04:17 GMT (UK)
“wonder where you found the approx. marriage date of 1749 for John, Borley and Marion Mackay?”
Ian I will tie this in with the Lieut Donald and Donald of Borley listing.
Donald NZ
Reply #129 on: Friday 17 March 06 22:20 GMT (UK)
Donald,
As I said in my previous post, I don't have any firm dates. These are very scarce in all three of the books I have been referring to.
However, there does not seem to be much controversy regarding (1) Kenneth Sutherland. "The Book of Mackay"; "The History of the House -----"; and "The World of Rob Donn" all seem to have him as the son of (2) John Sutherland and Catherine nic Tutor of Farr. Similarly, all three have him as the father of (3) the John Sutherland who married Isabel nic Iain macEachainn (John of Clasneach).
You have estimated the birth of (2) as ca. 1680 and his wife, Margaret, as 1685. Add 25 or 20 years to their dob and you get 1705 for an approx. marriage date.
Assume (1) Kenneth's dob one year later, i.e. 1706. Add 20 years for an est. marriage date for Kenneth of 1726.
Assume (3) John's birth 1 year later, i.e. 1727. Grimble reports his marriage was in 1747. Age 20 seems a bit young for marriage
but within reasonable range.
Barbara is a bit more difficult. I think Grimble is wrong and the Rev. MacDonald correctly described Kenneth Sutherland as Captain George's uncle, making Captain George's mother, Barbara, Kenneth's sister.
With regard to dates, I'm sorry that I don't have any. However, assume (2)John Sutherland's dob was ca. 1680 and his wife, Margaret, was abt. 1685. Add 25/20 years for a marriage date of approx. 1705.
Grimble describes Barbara Sutherland as old in 1747. How old is "old"? 50 to 60? This suggests she was born about 1697 to 1707. Probably closer to 1707.
In any event, if (1) Kenneth's dob was close to 1707, he could not have been the father of
Barbara. She was the mother of a Captain in 1757. Assume Capt. George was 25 in 1757, that gives him a dob of 1732. Assume Barbara was 20 to 25 when Capt. George was born, this gives a her a dob of between 1707 to 1712.
I recognize that I have done a lot of assuming but I think they are reasonable assumptions.
Ian
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Re: Reply #129 on: Friday 17 March 06 22:20 GMT
Hello Ian
Your assuming dates seem fairly good to me and tie in closely with mine. The following is my confirmations along with my efforts to try and establish some time frames on Donald of Clashneach and marriage dates. I look forward to some feedback.
Donald of Clashneach, first wife was Barbara Sutherland, they had five children,
Mary b. abt 1725:
Margaret b. abt. 1726, d.29/9/1805, age 79yrs:
Cpt. George b.abt 1727:
Marian b. abt 1729.
Catherine: abt 1731
That Margaret’s headstone states she died 29/9/1805, age 79yrs, gives her birth date as a reasonably accurate 1726 time frame.
Mary was born prior to Margaret by say two years = 1724 so they were probably married abt 1723 / 24
Lets assume Barbara was married in 1724 at age 20yrs = born 1704 or if married at age 17yrs = Barbara born abt 1707.
When I researched these individuals some time ago, I came up with time frames of Barbara born 1705 and Kenneth 1707. I consider the section “Barbara was a daughter of Kenneth Sutherland, of Keoldale” on page 211 of Dr.Ian Grimble’s book, “The World of Rob Donn”.to be wrong. Further confirmation is on page 212, by Rev. Murdo Macdonald using the term Uncle Kenneth, in reference to Barbara’s brother, when speaking of Barbara’s son Cpt. George. This further confirms Grimble’s deduction of Barbara being daughter of Kenneth to be wrong..
Kenneth’s son John died 1 o'clock 18th. May 1748, at Keoldale and buried at Balnakil, Sutherland, Scotland
John’s wife Isobel had died a few days earlier, on 9th. May 1748 at Keoldale, Sutherland, Scotland. Age abt 23yrs = both born abt. 1725 / 27.
The forgoing is sufficient to demonstrate Barbara was not Kenneth’s son.
Donald of Clashneach’s second marriage was to Mary Mackay, daughter of John of clashneach. To establish whether Barbara died, or whether Donald and Barbara separated and Donald then married Mary. I refer to: Page 11, “The World of Rob Donn”, relating to The Reverend Murdo’s diary; “early in 1757 the minister happened to be visiting Donald Mackay at Claiseneach in Durness, (followed by a reference number 10) whose wife Barbara” ……. “being in the house of the old man”.
The foregoing indicates Donald was living at Clashneach in 1757 with wife Barbara, it also indicates Donald was old, but Ian as you mentioned in your response, how old is old, over 50yrs?.
On page 212, “it was not until 29th. January 1759” ……..”sent this suggestion tactfully through Hugh of Bighouse to his parents at Clashneach” ………”your Mamma now again in Claiseneach” ……… “Neither Mrs Mackay nor your Uncle Kenneth nor your humble servant”
Relating to the foregoing paragraph. What reason would Capt. George have to tactfully send mail through Hugh of Bighouse to his parents?
That Barbara was again in Claiseneach indicates she had been away.
That there is no mention of Donald, only of Barbara and Kenneth, indicates Donald was not at Claisneach.
Is it then possible that Donald and Barbara had separated, perhaps in the latter 1758 period and that this time frame was when Donald and Mary were married?
There are references in the major Mackay reference books on; Donald Mackay of Clashneach and Mary as having children, as yet I have not found a record of a named child or time frame.
I have calculated that Mary would have been born around 1730, considerably younger than Donald.
Amongst my notes there is a reference that Donald and Mary retired to Muiseal. As Mary’s father died in 1757 (according to page 112, " The World of Robb Donn" -..elegies that Iain Mac Eachainn must have heard before he died in 1757). It is possible they moved into his home.
Back to an earlier paragraph that related to (10) On page 223 References To Chapter 9 .
(10) “The first stanza of his elegy in RD 313-5 reveals that he died in 1764”
This indicates Donald died in 1764, if this is so then Donald and Mary only had about four years to have a family.
There are a lot more questions, such as where did Donald get the title of Clashneach from. It would seemingly not have come from his marriage with Mary through her father as Donald was married to Barbara through the time her father was alive.
Donald NZ
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'Vestiges of Old Madras' quotes 'George Mackay came out as a free merchant in 1738 at the age of 20, and pursued his vocation for 28 years' which indicates a date of birth for him of c. 1718. This would suppose his mother's birthdate to be around 1700 or late 1690's.
Hilary
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Hi,
More than one of the posts above mentions the children of Donald Mackay of Clasneach and Barbara Sutherland:
Donald of Clashneach, first wife was Barbara Sutherland, they had five children,
Mary b. abt 1725:
Margaret b. abt. 1726, d.29/9/1805, age 79yrs:
Cpt. George b.abt 1727:
Marian b. abt 1729.
Catherine: abt 1731
The Margaret Mackay mentioned here, who married James Clarke, was my 4th Great Grandmother. I can see her grave. The records for her descendants are clear, and your posts put together the various references for her parents' ancestors in The Book of Mackay and other sources.
My problem is that none of the sources you quote mentions Margaret herself. For example, you quote The Book of Mackay as saying "Barbara Sutherland, who married Donald Mackay of Clasneach. They had 3 children: George [already mentioned]; Marion who married John Mackay, Borley; and Mary who married Neil Morrison, Kylestrome."
Is there any direct evidence that Margaret (or Catherine) was a member of this family?
I would be very grateful for any help.
Alan Watson
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Like you, I cannot see any demonstrable link between Margaret Mackay/Clarke and the family of Donald MacKay of Clashneach.
Much seems to depend on whether it is assumed or proven that the John Clarke of Cnockbreac who is listed as the father of Hugh, Charles, Mary and John in the parish records between 1765 and 1770 is the same as the James Clarke who died in 1774 and is buried in Balnakeil. the relative proximity (1) of Clashneach, Cnockbreac, Keodale and Borley, all within a few hundred yards apart, and the fact that his and his wife's grave is next to that of John's family in Balnakeil, seem to suggest this is the same family. That he is one one occasion referred to as ""Mr James Clarke" suggests that he was recognised as a gentleman. There were very few Clarkes in the parish in the 18th century, and their links to the Dukes of Sutherland are well known.
Margaret might well have been of the line of Lord Reay, or a minor branch thereof, but unless someone can produce a solid verifiable link I can't see that it's proven.
I do wonder, I must say, if she was really as old as 79 in 1805. That would make her over forty at the dates of birth of her three oldest children, with the last born when she was 44. given that her gravestone was erected by Alexander Clarke decades after her death I'd take her age with a pinch of salt.
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Jeannette Grant née Clarke from New Zealand has pointed me to The Book Of Mackay pp 229, 230 on The Sandwood Mackays. This traces Margaret Mackay who married John Sutherland of Keoldale, lists their two children, says that Barbara married Donald of Clashneach, lists four of their children (the three listed elsewhere plus Margaret), says that Margaret married James Clarke and gives her date of death and the number of their children.
She also has various letters supporting this from the then Lord Reay who was godfather to her great uncle.
Alan
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Ah yes - I see that on p.330. That lists her death as 1809; if she was 79 when she died that places her birth around 1730 which makes having her last child in 1770 rather more plausible. I will need to look at the gravestones next time I'm in Balnakeil.
To be frank, the Clarkes are rather peripheral on my tree. One of the younger Clarkes, most likely John (1830-61) was the father of an illegitimate child born to my great great grandmother in 1858. I suspect as the child was born Morrison and died Clarke that she had to raise court action to prove paternity.
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In about 2004, subscribers to the predecessor of www.countysutherland.co.uk (now administered by Chris Stokes) organized themselves under the acronym POSH (Preserve our Sutherland Heritage) one of their activities being to photograph and catalog tombstones/monumental inscriptions for every cemetery in the County of Sutherland. These records may be accessed for a nominal fee. I have a copy of the Balnakeil records.
Of interest here is the following record: James CLARKE of Clashneach died 30 Mar 1774, age 69; wife Margaret MACKAY died 29 Sep 1805, age 79; son Captain Alexander CLARKE of the Reay Fencibles died at Eriboll 20 Jun 1822 age 62. (note that Margaret MACKAY'S year of death differs by 4 years from the BOOK OF MACKAY)
Nearby there are two other Clarke stones but they are for the family of a John CLARKE who was married to a Johanna FALCONER.
Incidentally, the father of Hugh, Charles, Mary, and John is recorded in the Parish Register as James CLARKE, not John. Presumably the other children were born before the register commenced.
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The John Clarke who married Joanna Falconer was the son of the James Clarke who married Margaret Mackay.
Alan
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IanB: I'm going to have a closer look at that stone to make sure the last digit is indeed a "5", for the reasons regarding the ages of Margaret's children that I mentioned higher up in the thread. It might also be correct that the stone was erected decades after the parties' deaths, and that the mason might have made an error (or the transcriber - she misread one of my g-g-grandmothers as dying in 1908 when she passed in 1903).
Incidentally, Captain Alexander Clarke was the Paymaster of the Reay Fencibles during their Irish campaign.
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Good idea. I looked at the photograph. The stone appears to be very weathered and that date was not legible.
Some women did appear to have long child-bearing years. For example, my 2x greatgrandmother was 41 when she gave birth to her 9th child.
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James Clarke & Margaret Mackay were my 4x great grandparents and John Clarke 1770-1837 who married Johanna Falconer 1773-1858 was their 7th son and 9th child. Their youngest son Donald Robert Clarke 1815-1883 kept a diary from the age of 12 until his marriage, I am currently transcribing it and think this entry may be of relevance. It is dated the 28th of October 1835.
"This being Saturday, I took a run out to Musselborough by one of the Railway Coaches to visit a Mr John Ross, a very old gentleman a native of Durness. He entertained me very much with his stories of olden times. He left Durness in 1778 to join the 71st Regt. He says that Rob Donn was the last person he shook hands with in Durness at the top of the Balloch Mor. He remembers very well my great grandmother “Bean mhor Chlasneach” widow of Donald Mackay alias MacConil of Clashneach, lived to 105 years. Her son George was a Councillor in Madras & one of the most influential men in that Presidency. My grandfather James Clarke, he recollected perfectly. Mr Ross thinks he was at the battle of Prestonpans (21 Sept 1745 JG) in Lord Loudon’s ……..He says that he had the salmon fishing of Durness & that every person that crossed the Cruive at Gruisie got a salmon. Mr R remembers when the only gravestones in the churchyard of Durness were those over the graves of Kenneth Sutherland of Keoldale & his descendants among whom was the famous Isbal N’ic Aoidh. Mr Ross is remarkably kind. I promised to repeat my visit. Remained till Evg of next day."
On the 27th February 1838 he recorded
"I went out to Musselburgh to visit my friend Mr Ross. He says that most of my grandfather’s family were at school with him at Durness. The young men he says were the stoutest, handsomest he ever saw. He was intimate with my uncle George, Lieut in the H.E.I.C.Service, who fell in action 10 Sept 1780 at Genl Baillie’s defeat. The 71st (at that time the 73rd) were near the ground about 12 months, afterwards when some of the Durness men went to see the spot there my uncle fell. Mr Ross was 41 years in the 71st & 20 of these in India. He says that most of the great people were in his early days buried in the Churches in the Reay Country. My Greatgrandfather & great grandmother are buried in the Church of Durness, he thinks at the side of the wall near the Balnakiel Seat. He recollects when the only seats in the Church were the Clergyman’s, my grandfather’s & the Balnakiel. The rest of the people brought stools or stones or piled up old bones & sat on them. Not a hat entered the Church on Sunday but the Minister’s & that was a coarse one! Young men indeed never thought of wearing even a bonnet till they were married & then the bonnet used to come with the whisky for the wedding. Knotty-playing & Dancing were the great accomplishments for young men.
Mr R remembers seeing my grandfather, one of the most opulent men in the parish, set off to visit the Hon Capt Mackay of Skibo, Lord Reay’s father. “He was well mounted, booted & spurred” says he, “with a pair of hose under his boots reaching a little above the calf of the leg. His breeches, which had recently come into fashion, did not nearly meet the boots or hose, so that the whole knee was bare & exposed to the weather. On his head he wore a broad blue bonnet.” This was previous to 1778 in which year Mr Ross left the country & did not revisit it till 1822."
On another visit on 18 October 1836 he wrote
"Dined with Mr Ross & walked afterwards into town. Mr R thinks my grandfather James Clarke was at this battle of Prestonpans in the 21st Regt under Lord Loudon. If he was there at all, he must have been on the side of the Royal forces, & his grandson cannot help thinking, on the wrong side."
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Thanks for posting. A very interesting read. IanB
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Jeanette13: Thanks for posting this. May I perhaps add a few comments?
The Reay MacKays and the gentry of the parish of Durness were staunchly pro-Government at the time of the '45; Reverend MacDonald's diaries kept in the National library are very disparaging of the rebels, so James Clarke would unquestionably have been on the government side at Prestonpans.
I was interested in your reference to Rob Donn bidding John Ross farewell at Beálach Mór. While it's some distance from the modern road that runs by the Kyle of Durness, the old village tradition is that the path into the village was some distance to the East, entering the modern village at Sangobeg. Your reference to this being the departure point certainly supports that, although parts of the route further south do look difficult for a sheep drover.
There is a pool on the River Dionard used to this day by fishermen close to Grudie; there's a bridge there now but it wasn't built till the mid-19th century.
There was a John Ross fathered a child out of wedlock in 1768 at Achuharaset, which I believe may be another name for Grudie, or at least a settlement close to it; I suspect this might be the man who met Donald Clarke many years later.
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This thread is three years dormant, but I am posting a reply regarding, first, Quartermaster John Ross of Musselburgh, retired from 71st Highlanders Regiment of Foot. I can clarify his origin. I'm a descendant of his younger brother, also named John Ross. QM John is the first son of Hugh Ross and Jean Manson of Borley, who are buried at Balnakeil. Hugh and Jean are my 4x great grandparents. QM John installed a separate stone monument at Balnakeil honoring his parents [ https://public.fotki.com/rhemusaig/burial_grounds/durness_parish/durness_balnakeil/bk024x.html]. QM John Ross died in Musselburgh in 1837, and his 4 page will was filed with the Edinburgh Sheriff Court [ Wills and Testaments Reference SC70/1/55, Edinburgh Sheriff Court Inventories, images 407-409, 3 May 1837]. There is a stone monument honoring QM John Ross in St Michael's Churchyard, Inveresk. Meanwhile, my 3x great grandfather John Ross is also a son of Hugh Ross and Jean Manson of Borley. This younger John Ross is in the Durness birth register on 16 May 1775, and he married Robina Mackenzie in Kinlochbervie, Eddrachillis Parish on 23 March 1811, they emigrated to Nova Scotia, and together they raised 10 children on Boularderie Island, Nova Scotia. Both John and Robina are buried in Man O War Point Cemetery on Boularderie. Back to QM John Ross. The diary narrative has some minor date flaws, for example "On the 27th February 1838 he recorded..." must the wrong year, because QM John Ross was buried in 1837. Regarding the possible connection to John Ross who "fathered a child out of wedlock in 1768 at Achuharaset" this is Rev. Thompson's entry for "John Ross, alias MacEnvicoun, in Achucharaset" which is unlikely to be QM John Ross, because in 1868 Rev. Thompson would have described him as "a young lad" and also "alias machustian" rather than "MacEnvicoun." But I really do have a question. William the younger brother of QM John Ross fathered a child out of wedlock in 1780 ("William Ross alias machustian mac Eunicoun a very young lad unmarried in Borley and Janet alias nin lye roy, a single woman in Borley"). My current Ross of Borley brick wall is with William Ross, specifically, how to identify the mother of the child that Rev. Thompson describes as "Janet alias nin lye roy" - who were her parents and siblings, did she have any further children, etc. Borley in 1780 seems to me to be too small for "Janet alias nin lye roy" to be very well hidden. The child, Donald, is easy to follow, its the mother I want to trace. Btw, thanks very much for the long running and fascinating thread about the Durness Parish register. It is fun to compare the transcriptions of Hew Morrison with the actual words of Rev. Thompson.
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Wilros: Sorry, I'm a bit confused here. As I read it -
QM John Ross was born in 1775 and died in Nova Scotia circa 1837.
His younger brother William was born in Borley in 1781, so cannot have fathered a child in 1780.
However, we know that Jean Manson had a daughter Marion/Merran who died on 29th July 1788 aged 29, so was born circa 1759. This means that Jean and Hugh could have had a son before records were kept in 1764, who would be about seventeen or eighteen in 1780.
"Janet nin Iye Roy" (daughter of Aiodh with the red hair) was presumably also born before 1764, and possibly a MacKay, although there is a Florence Morison "nin Iye Gauloch" in Cnockbreac, less than 400 yards from Borley gives birth out of wedlock to a child Iye baptised in April 1780. The father Donald Reid is listed as married to someone else in April but marries Florence in July 1780!.
Iye Morison was in Croispol (again a few hundred yards from Borley) when his daughter Mary was born in 1769.
If Janet nin Iye was a Morison, she does not reappear in the Durness records. Florence has another child but there's no verifiable record of Mary nin Iye post 1769.
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In D R Clarke's diary, he said on 17 March 1837 "Another friend is gone – old Mr Ross of Musselborough by whom I was so hospitably entertained 2 months ago."
The first mention of "Mr John Ross" was on 28 November 1835 and again on 27 Feb 1836. If I wrote 1838 it was a typo. Sorry. Jeanette
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Sorry - I'm a bit lost.
The younger John Ross (born 1775) married Robina MacKenzie, migrated to Nova Scotia and died there?
The Quartermaster who died in Musselburgh in 1837 was presumably born before 1764, as he's not in the parish records?
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All - Thanks very much for the replies! Sorry for the meandering narrative. I’ll try to do better this time!
Hugh Ross of Borley is my 4th great grandfather. He has no birth record, no marriage record, and his first 3 children were born in 1755, 1759, and 1763 - all before 4 November 1764 when Rev. Thompson commenced his baptism register for Durness Parish. After that date Hugh Ross of Borley is visible as the father on six baptisms in the Durness registry - 1766, 1768, 1771, 1775, 1778, and 1781. Hugh’s wife Jean Manson of Borley is recorded on only one of the baptisms. The tablestone for their grave at Balnakeil provides their ages and dates of death, so we know them as Hugh (about 1755-1799) and Jean (about 1738-1831).
For John Ross, their first child, and a Quartermaster in the 71st Highlander Regiment of Foot, we have the memorial stone he erected at Balnakeil in honor of his parents, a grave stone at Inveresk from his brother officers honoring his 44 years of service in the army and noting his age at death and his death date in 1837, plus his entry on the local death registry, and his 4 page will filed in Edinburgh Sheriff Court. Therefore we have a high level of confidence in a birth for Quartermaster John Ross in Borley in 1755.
For Merran Ross, their second child, all we have is the memorial inscription about her short life (1759-1788) on the table stone at Balnakeil for Angus MacLeod and Janel Ross MacLeod.
For William Ross, their third child, we have circumstantial evidence for his birth in 1763, including the baptism in 1780 of the child he fathered as a single young lad in Borley. But the most important primary evidence is the will of QM John Ross in 1837, who directed Rev. Findlater to divide his estate in five equal shares "... to Donald Ross, now or lately residing at Pictou in Nova Scotia, John Ross residing at Boularderie Island of Cape Breton in North America, both my brothers, and to my sisters Barbara Ross, widow of the late Kenneth McCulloch residing in the Parish of Durness aforesaid and Janet Ross wife of Angus MacLeod farmer in the said Parish of Durness and Donald Ross my nephew son of the deceased William Ross my brother and found lately residing in the Isle of Hoan Parish of Durness aforesaid..."
Finally, we have this baptism in 1781: "Hugh Ross, alias MacEanmbicoun, tenent in Borley, and his wife Jean Manson, William, 13 July 1781"
I think this baptism is not a child, this is teenage William brought back to the congregation by his parents after his transgression the prior year for fathering a child as a "single young lad." There is a rich stream of evidence for the other siblings - Barbara (1768), Donald (1771), John (1775, my 3rd ggf), and Janet (1778), strong evidence of the first William, and no evidence of a second William.
In other words, two Johns, only one William, and hundreds of descendants.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but their descendants were a testament to the School at Loch Croisbol and the kind of citizens that emerged from Durness Parish - one grandson of Hugh and Jean was an MP in the first Canadian Parliament (1867-1874), and Minister of the Militia in the cabinet, and later a Senator in the Canadian Parliament (1905-1912). And a great-grandson of Hugh and Jean was Lieutenant Governor of the Province of Ontario, Canada (1927-1932). Both are in Wikipedia.
:-)
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Hugh Ross of Borley is my 4th great grandfather. He has no birth record, no marriage record, and his first 3 children were born in 1755, 1759, and 1763 ....The tablestone for their grave at Balnakeil provides their ages and dates of death, so we know them as Hugh (about 1755-1799) and Jean (about 1738-1831).
If Hugh's first child was born in 1755, he himself can't have been born in 1755! Are you perhaps mixing up two different generations?
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Forfarian - yes, you're right, that was a typo on my part. The tablestone on Hugh's grave says his year of death (1799) and his age at death (68), therefore he was born about 1731.
Hugh Ross of Borley (1731-1799)
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I'm still not wholly convinced your evidence justifies every one of your conclusions.
Hugh Ross died in June 1799 aged 68 so was born around 1731
Jean Manson died in March 1831 aged 93 so was born in 1737-38.
Merran/Marion (1759-88) was their daughter.
Their first child in the parish records is Donald (b. 1766), but previous birth of John and William are clearly feasible.
What I cannot accept is that William was baptised as an adult in 1781. Where a child is over the age of one, this is recorded in the baptism records. In Presbyterian Scotland baptism of an adult is unknown, and baptism of a child after he has fathered an illegitimate child and not married the child's mother is preposterous. His disappearance from the records is more likely to be the result of early death as there were next to no death records kept.
We then move to Donald, William's son, located on Eilean Hoan in the 1830s. He must be the child of William and Janet, born in 1780. He married Isabella Calder and they had ten children between 1812 and 1832 (Donald, Marion, William, Mary, Robert Hugh, Janet, Jane, Williamina, Isabella and John). His eldest son Donald fathered a child Catherine out of wedlock in August 1837. The mother was Fairlie Beaton, wife of Alexander Gunn, house carpenter now at Smoo. Baptism was delayed until 1839 when the paternal grandparents became sponsors
However the reference in a will dated 1837 to Barbara McCulloch as Kenneth's "widow" is confusing. We need to take the online gravestone information with a pinch of salt. She died in 1858 (the reference in the burial records to 1878 is clearly an error due to the stone being faded). Likewise it is implausible that Kenneth died in 1857 aged 74, as he was married in February 1788, so I presume he died in 1837, as Barbara was living at the Manse and listed as of independent means in 1841. Was the Will written after June 1837?
Janet and Angus MacLeod were both alive in 1837 so the will makes sense in that regard.
I've located the man who was, I presume, your grandfather.
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djct59 - thanks for the comments, good points.
To be clear, I'm not fully convinced my evidence justifies my conclusions. Parts of this are a work in progress.
It's true as you say that the death of the first William after the birth of his son would clear the way for a second William. It would be great to find evidence of the adult a second William would have become.
Also, if Jean Manson had a new infant in 1781, then the pregnancy was 3 years after her prior pregnancy with Janet, and she would have been 43 years old, so it is not impossible that a 1781 pregnancy occurred.
I have similar details as you presented about Donald Ross + Isobel Calder, including the adoption by the parents of their (illegitimate) grandson, but I have that child's mother's name as Fairley Bethune
About the Will, I'm not sure exactly how to read it. One part in the top half of the first page says, "At Edinburgh the third day of May Eighteen hundred and thirty seven years the following inventory of the Personal Estate of John Rofs deceased and (unclear) relative to the disposal thereof were presented by Mr. Thomas Lees (unclear)." Thus, I think the answer your question, Was the Will written after June 1837? is "no."
I can't speak to your points about Kenneth MacCulloch because I have not progressed in my investigation past his marriage to Barbara, and I don't currently have his date of birth.
I'm confused by your comment about my grandfather - I assume you mean my great-grandfather. My father's paternal grandfather was William D Ross (1869-1947), he is in Wikipedia due to his service as Lieutenant Governor of Ontario. Meanwhile, his son, my paternal grandfather Donald Gordon Ross, lived in Toronto, Ontario, Canada from 1902-1981, and he is not in Wikipedia.
Please let me know if I failed to respond to any of your points. Again, I very much appreciate your comments.
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Sorry - I miscounted the generations. You know your own family obviously.
I do see that Fairly Beaton is listed as daughter of "Alexr Bethune Kainer Acharn". That looks like a bad transcription. Alexander Beaton appears to have lived at Aultan/Aldan, on the Cape side of the Kyle of Durness in the period 1815-30. A cainer appears to have been a maker of walking sticks.
It appears that Mlle Beaton told poor Mr Gunn he was the father, as they married the month of Catherine's birth, then the truth must have emerged and he left her to go to Smoo.
Was William D Ross a nephew of Senator William Ross of Nova Scotia (1825-1912)?
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djct59 - yes, William D Ross (1869-1947) is a nephew of William Ross (1825-1912). btw, I just uploaded a picture of the LtGov in his official capacity hosting a luncheon for a visiting MP from London, England at Government House, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, on 17 August 1929. lol.
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London, United Kingdom, please, if it was 1929. :)
England ceased to be a sovereign state on 30th April 1707.
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But you can still use England, Scotland and Wales as geographical terms.
It always grates on me to see 'Edinburgh, United Kingdom' so I am perfectly happy to see 'London, England' in this sort of context.
If it had been about a Canadian politician in London, England on an official visit to England, I would have found the second 'England' inappropriate for exactly the reason djct59 stated.
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Jeanette13 - about typos, i make my fair share of them, but i want to ask you about another possible typo. you posted, "He left Durness in 1778 to join the 71st Regt. He says that Rob Donn was the last person he shook hands with in Durness at the top of the Balloch Mor." My 3x great-grandfather, the younger brother of Quartermaster John Ross, was born in 1775, and was named John because at that time (1775) his brother John had been gone to the army for several years with no word, his parents feared that he was dead, and they named their next boy John. Based on the logic of naming a second child John, I assume the departure of the first John had to be a few years before the birth of the second John in 1775. There is another way to work out the departure date, but it would take discovery of the date of his enlistment in the army, and at the moment I don't know how to hunt for army records. Anyway, can you look back at the diary and confirm that the sentence as written says John Ross left Durness in 1778? I love the sentence "Rob Donn was the last person he shook hands with in Durness at the top of the Balloch Mor." It is a great first sentence for a novel. If you put that sentence in a search on Google, the first hit is this chat.
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I walked up the Bealach Mor a couple of years ago - the top had a marvellous view of Loch Eriboll and Ben Hope, but the fire in April has devastated the entire hillside and it will take some years to recover fully.
Rob Donn Calder died in 1778 - the man who carved his gravestone couldn't carve a decent "8" so he just wrote "Rob Donn 1777" on the stone.
There is evidence that troops from Sutherland fought in the American revolution, but I don't know if full regimental records are online.
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I have checked the photo of the original diary and it looks as though the date has been changed to 1778 and was originally 1777. I will try to attach the relevant pages. if it doesn't work, give me an email address to send them to.
Jeanette
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Would the Jean Manson who married Hugh Ross be any relation to the Alexander Manson, M.D. of Thurso? He married Jane/Jennie Sinclair on 23 April 1799 and their daughter Marion Macbeth Manson (1800-1886) married Alexander Falconer Clarke JP, DL, (1802-1877), brother of my 2xgtgrandfather David Ross Clarke, the first one in the family to have 'Ross' as a middle name.
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Well, Manson is not a common name west of Tongue, but is far more common in Caithness and East Sutherland, so any Manson in Durness is likely to have arrived from there. There are numerous Caithness records on Scotlandseople, some dating back to the late 17th century, so you might want to spend some time delving into those records.
Is your David Ross Clarke the one born in Keodale in 1800, who married Elizabeth Ann Hall in 1827?
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Jeannette13 - the short answer is that there are a lot of Mansons in Caithness.
But I don't have a solid birth record for Jean Manson. I see no Jean Manson born in Sutherland during the right time frame for her birth, but there is plausible candidate born in the right year in Olrig Parish, Caithness.
"1738 May 22 George Manson in [Gearth?] had a daughter baptized called Jean, Witness Donald Sutherland and James More"
For the moment I have pencilled in this Jean Manson as a placeholder pending additional evidence confirming or refuting her as the wife of Hugh Ross in Borley.
I also have no birth record for Hugh Ross, her husband. The Ross family in Borley becomes clearly visible after 1764 when Rev. Thompson assumed responsibility for baptisms and marriages.
At the moment I'm not researching the ancestors of Hugh and Jean because I have so many loose ends to resolve just following each of their 32 grandchildren - 17 Rosses, 8 MacLeods, and 7 MacCullochs.
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Yes. David Ross Clarke was born on23 Feb 1800 and chr 5 Mar 1800 at Durness. He became a trader to the West Indies and married Eliza Ann Hall at St Andrews, Pleasant Prospect pen, Jamaica on 8 March 1827. She was the eldest child of Col Charles William Hall (1768-1832) and Isabella Anne Ford (1790-1824) who was born in Niagara Canada. DRC had two sons and three daughters but my gtgrandfather Col Alexander Ross Clarke RE, FRS, CB was the only one to leave descendants. He was awarded the Gold Medal of the Royal Society in 1887 for his "determination of the figure of the Earth" - in other words he was the first to accurately measure the size and shape of the world and the book 'Geodesy' which he wrote is still in print and the authoritative text in Englsh on the subject.
Jeanette
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This baptism is recorded in the Hew Morrison transcription of the John Thompson register for Durness.
"John Mackay, alias MacEan macuileam macneil, tenent in Uaibeg, and . . . Isobel Down, alias nin Rob Dhuin, alias Calder, alias Eckel, Janet, 15 June 1781."
Is this infant Janet Mackay the granddaughter of the poet Rob Donn?
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Yes, Isobel was the daughter of the bard Rob Donn Calder. She died in childbirth on 11th March 1786 after giving birth to twins.
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thanks, i see it now.
"John Mackay, alias macenicuileam macneil, tenent in Uaibeg, and . . . Isobel Down, daughter of Robert Down, Poet, John and Isobel (Isobel Down died two or three hours after the twins were born), 11 March 1786"
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Here's a direct transliteration from the ScotlandsPeople digital image of the Baptism register handwritten by Rev.John Thompson, see attachment.
"Robert Down Poet in Saingo had George baptized 12 Sept. 1769"
The Hew Morrison transliteration of this baptism:
"Robert Down, Poet in Saingo, George, 12 Sept. 1769"
Is this also the bard Rob Donn?
Two lines above that is a patronymic:
"John Macdholicorishskerray, alias Mackay"
What is the translation of the patronymic?
Thanks very much!
[wr]
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John the son of Donald the son of George in Skerray (a place near Tongue).
Yes, George in 1769 was the son of the bard.
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Would the Jean Manson who married Hugh Ross be any relation to the Alexander Manson, M.D. of Thurso? He married Jane/Jennie Sinclair on 23 April 1799 and their daughter Marion Macbeth Manson (1800-1886) married Alexander Falconer Clarke JP, DL, (1802-1877), brother of my 2xgtgrandfather David Ross Clarke, the first one in the family to have 'Ross' as a middle name.
I am also researching a possible connection to Jean Manson via a Barbara Manson who was married to an Angus Mackay tenant and miller at Badlehavish(various spellings). Interestingly Angus Mackay and Barbara Manson are buried in the Arnaboll burial ground which is not far from Badlehavish but also in the same burial ground is your Jane Sinclair, widow of Alexander Manson MD Thurso. I know that Barbara Manson was also from Thurso.
https://public.fotki.com/rhemusaig/burial_grounds/durness_parish/durness_arnaboll/ard12.html
Arnaboll is a pretty small burial ground and I do wonder if Barbara and Alexander are connected with his widow being buried there. Perhaps he is there as well but just not photographed or do you know otherwise?
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meanno - The Jean Manson that I referenced who married Hugh Ross and lived in Borley is buried in the cemetery at Balnakeil.
https://public.fotki.com/rhemusaig/burial_grounds/durness_parish/durness_balnakeil/bk023.html
This Jean Manson has clear data sources connecting her to hundreds of descendants (including me, one of her many 4xG grandchildren). I have clear or mostly clear baptism records for 32 grandchildren of Jean Manson and her husband Hugh Ross, but her birth, parents, and ancestry lack clear source material, hence my public post here searching for clues.
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wilros - I have emailed you
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The landowner at Arnaboll is doing everything in his power to make the graveyard inaccessible. The former track from Eriboll cannot be driven by car (although it was accessible 40 years ago), and two rungs have been removed from the stile at the head of Loch Hope. What remains of the lochside path is also in very poor condition.
Despite all this I did manage to get there a couple of years ago and have some photographs.
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These seem to be the relevant Mansons in the Arnaboll burial ground.
Barbara Manson MACKAY widow of the late Angus MACKAY, Badlehavish, who departed this life 4th June 1842 aged 71 years.
https://public.fotki.com/rhemusaig/burial_grounds/durness_parish/durness_arnaboll/ard1.html
Angus MACKAY, Badlehavish, who departed this life 9th January 1840 aged 91 years
https://public.fotki.com/rhemusaig/burial_grounds/durness_parish/durness_arnaboll/ard2_x_2.html
In memory of Jane SINCLAIR, widow of Alexander MANSON M D Thurso, who died at Eriboll August 18th 1851 aged 76 years. Also of Jane MANSON her daughter who died at Edinburgh July 2nd 1872 aged 63 years
https://public.fotki.com/rhemusaig/burial_grounds/durness_parish/durness_arnaboll/ard12.html
In memory of Helen Sinclair MANSON born Thurso December 27 1805 died at Nairn September 13th 1886
https://public.fotki.com/rhemusaig/burial_grounds/durness_parish/durness_arnaboll/ard13.html
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I'm looking for modern names for islands in the 1764-1815 Durness Registry.
Islandhoan is easy - Eilean Hoan
Islandchoary? perhaps Eilean Choraidh near the southern end of Loch Eriboll?
Islandhall?
Islandereir?
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There are only two habitable islands in the parish - Eilean Hoan and Eilean Choraidh. The latter was the more hospitable, but early records clearly draw a distinction in records at the same time, so it appears that Islandhall and Islandhoan may have been the same place.
Islandreir was in Strathmore. Just to the south west of Dun Dornaigil broch the River Strathmore divides in two, with a few acres of flat cultivable land in between the branches, about 800m long and 100m wide. I presume that was Islandreir.
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djct59 - thanks very much!
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I transcribed these records from the ScotlandsPeople digital images. This string of events begins with the baptism of Ann Brown from Keodale in 1775, includes her parents marriage, baptisms of her siblings, and her marriage in 1794 to Donald Ross. This Donald was born in Borley in 1771, and is the older brother of my 3xGGF John Ross, who was born in Borley in 1775.
(1775) Patrick Brown a single man in Keodale had a child baptized called Ann 24th November but not in lawful marriage
(1777) Patrick Brown from Peterhead in Keodale married Janet Mackay alias nin Neil in Keodale 4th March
(1777) Patrick Brown from Peterhead a little Tenant in Buailavig Keodale had a child baptized called James 8th October
(1779) Patrick Dunn alias Brown Tenant in Buailbhig of Keodale had a child baptized called Jean 10th Jan'ry 1779
(1780) Peter Dunn formerly Patrick Brown Tenant in Keoldale and his wife Janet Mackay alias nin Neil had Neil baptized 16th March
(1782) Patrick Dunn alias Brown Tenant in Grudie and his wife Janet Mackay alias nin Neil had Jean baptized 6th May
(1784) Patrick Dunn alias Brown Tenant in Grudie and Janet Mackay alias nin Nielicemish his wife had a Child baptized called Fairly 25th Nov'r
(1787) Peter Brown alias Dunn from Peterhead Tenant in Grudie and Ann Mackay alias nin Neil his wife had Peter baptized 20th February
(1789) Peter Dunn alias Brown Tenant in Achucharin and Ann Mackay alias nin Neilmacemish his wife had Margaret baptized 6th April
(1794) Donald Ross a Single young man in Achuchoran and Ann Dunn in Auchuchairn were married 31st Decem'r
I have two questions.
Is Dunn a translation of Brown into Gaelic?
Janet/Ann Mackay has patronymics of nin Neil, nin Nielicemish, and nin Neilmacemish. I assume Nielicemish is an error and Neilmacemish is a more useful transliteration by Rev. Thompson, but how does it translate into English?
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Brown haired in Scots Gaelic is indeed donn, pronounced similar to "Down".
Janet Mackay is nin Neil mhic Sheumais - Daughter of Neil the son of John. The "'ic" is probably preferable, although as the Ministers were not native Gaelic speakers, albeit in possession of a Gaelic Bible, they wrote what they heard.
As I understand it, Achuchoran and Grudie are effectively the same place - west of the river Dionard two and a bit miles south of Keodale. My uncle was shepherd there for many years.
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Jeanette13 - With regard to the diary of Donald Robert Clarke that you have transcribed, may I please ask if you have noticed anywhere in it a reference to a Marion Manson of 17 Dalrymple Place, Edinburgh who passed away in 1839?
This is very much a long shot, but I do know, from her intestate settlement document, that she was the sister of Barbara Manson, buried in Arnaboll, and she was possibly born in Thurso to an Alexander. Knowing that Donald Robert Clarke was in Edinburgh in the 1830's, if she was in any way related to him it seems possible that he might have visited her.
As I said, very much a long shot, but I am struggling to unravel the Manson's from Thurso and anything is worth trying!
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In May of 1828 Donald Robert Clarke wrote
"I saw my brother Alex on his return from the Inverness June (sic) Market. From Tain he went to Caithness & was married to Marion Manson, our former Governess."
However she was Marion Macbeth Manson 1800-1876 - the daughter of Alexander Manson MD and Jane/Jennie Sinclair 1781-1851 who married in Thurso on 23 Ap 1799. I htink they had at least two other daughters - Helen Sinclair Manson 1805-1886 who never married and possibly Jane Manson whose tombstone at Arnaboll says she died on 2 July 1862 aged 63. This is all I know of them but would be very happy to share any discoveries uou may make.
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Thankyou very much for that. I do find it interesting that Marion Macbeth Manson was a governess to your ancestors, the Clarkes, in Keoldale, as Barbara Manson was living in Keoldale when she married Angus Mackay. Maybe she also worked for your family which could account for her being in Keoldale.
Anyway I will certainly share with you anything I find that may be relevant.
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I think that Jane Manson died on 2 July 1872. Confirmation of her will was given to her sister Miss Helen Sinclair Manson. Both were of 47 Queen Street Edinburgh.
The two sisters can be seen at that address in the 1871 census, both annuitants. In 1861, Jane was in Durness, visiting the household of her other sister Marion and Marion's husband Alexander Clarke.
Jane was born on 20 April 1803 in Thurso.
Helen Sinclair Manson was born in Thurso on 27 December 1805 and died in Nairn on 13 September 1886. Confirmation of her will went to George Granville Clarke and David Ross Clarke [1840-1908, my great grandfather]. She too was a governess at the time of the 1851 census.
They also had a brother Alexander (1801-1874) who married a Mary King in Thurso in 1823.
Like Jeanette, I would be very interested to learn whether there is any connection between these Mansons and yours.
Alan
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I imagine they all knew each other and knew how they were related. James Clarke (1705-74) had married Margaret Mackay (1726-1895) of Clasneach some time around 1750 and they had ten children by 1772.
The families seem to have educated each other's children. A diary reference in July 1828 says "Miss Isabella McKay, my cousin, who was going as governess to Mr Anderson’s Family at Rispond." and later he says [17.6.1831]
"My sister Margaret had just come home on a visit from T Houstons Esq of Creich where she has been as Governess to the young Misses Houston for some time." and on 3.6.1833 "A Miss Mackay from Thurso came here on her way to Scourie as governess to my cousins"
The diary is full of such tantalising hints - and comments like this "For the first time, I today saw a Steam Carriage, in Princes Street" dated 28 March 1834 when he was at university in Edinburgh. I had no idea they had spread that far so early!
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Like Jeanette, I would be very interested to learn whether there is any connection between these Mansons and yours.
Alan
In the Wikitree entry for Alexander Manson M.D. of Thurso that you manage his date of birth is given as 9 Oct 1774. Are you certain of that? I ask because there is a birth of an Alexander on 11 Dec 1766 to an Alexr. and an Eliza Water. The Marion I mentioned, sister of Barbara, was almost certainly born to an Alexr. and an Elspet Water on 17 Feb 1763 (she died in 1838 at age 75).
The intestate settlement document I referred to in my earlier post also mentions another sister Anne, but I can't find any suitable records for the births of Barbara and Anne, though there is a birth of an Anne in 1781 to an Alexander but with a different mother, Janet Dunnet. Prior to finding this document I had Barbara possibly born to a James in 1770 but it seems that assumption must have been wrong. The document refers to Barbara as the spouse of Angus Mackay, miller Badlehavish, so there is no question of identity there.
The only reason to suppose there might be a connection between Barbara and Alexander M.D. is that she is buried in the same small burial ground as his family (and perhaps him?). The possibility is worth exploring, however, even if not proved, for what else it might reveal about the Thurso Mansons in Durness.
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In fact I am not at all sure of the date of his birth or of his parents.
Jeannette will very probably be able to add more, but what I know for sure is:
a) that his wife and daughter (not him as far as I know) were buried together in Arnaboll in a grave which described them as 'Jane Sinclair, widow of Alexander MANSON M D Thurso, who died at Eriboll August 18th 1851 aged 76 years' and 'Jane Manson her daughter who died at Edinburgh July 2nd 1872 aged 63 years.'
b) that Alexander Manson and Jeanie Sinclair married in Thurso on 23 April 1799, when Jane (Jeanie) was about 20.
c) that they had (at least) four children in Thurso, Marion Macbeth in May 1800, Alexander in February 1801, Jane in April 1803 and Helen Sinclair in December 1805; these children and their mother/other relatives appear together in various censuses.
d) that Jane Sinclair was a widow when she died in 1851 and appeared without her husband in the 1841 and 1851 censuses, presumably because he had already died.
e) that an Alexander Manson was born in Thurso on 9 October 1774 to parents Alexander Manson and Margaret MacDonald; this couple also had children Christine in 1764, David in 1767, George in 1770 and Alexander in 1773.
And that's it. If my dob is right, Alexander would have been 24 when he married, which would be young for a doctor these days, but which seems reasonable for then. Certainly there is no obstacle that I know of to him having been rather older.
I would love to find a record of Alexander in practice or in his training. Obviously, finding his death/grave would be good too, but so far I haven't seen any of this.
As I say, Jeanette probably has more.
Alan
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Sorry. I wish I did know more. All my grandfather EMC had written down was that "Alexander Falconer Clarke of Rosemount, Tain, In Commission of the Peace & Deputy Lieutenant co. Sutherland, b 1802 at Durness, d 1877, married Marion, daughter of Alexandre Manson M.D. of Thurso, co Caithness."
He listed their children as - Alexander Manson, George of Eribol, Johan b1834 d 1858, Janet, Jemima b1838 d unm, David Ross. Eric Mackay (which I believe was one of his very few mistakes and should have been Eric Donald.)
Alexander's gtgrandson Reay D G Clarke died two years ago and I am not in touch with any of his family so I can't ask them questions. However, he did write a book you may find of interest - "Two hundred years of farming in Sutherland- the story of my family" It was printed in 2014 by the Islands Book Trust. There is a chapter on Alexander which gives the full names and dates of his eight children.
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I would love to find a record of Alexander in practice or in his training.
Alan
This image is a screenshot of the Thurso Burgh tax schedule in 1798/99. It looks to me like there is a Dr. Manson amongst those names, which could tie in with Alexander Manson practicing in Thurso. Not definitive, but a pretty strong piece of evidence.
If the image doesn't attach then here is the link:
https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/historical-tax-rolls/consolidated-schedules-assessed-taxes-1798-1799/consolidated-schedules-assessed-taxes-volume-07/13
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I read it clearly as 'Dr Manson'. What was the population in the area in those days? How many doctors are there likely to have been?
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To be precise - 3!
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And here's the confirmation that there were three doctors in Thurso, all 'active young men' which certainly doesn't preclude Alexander Manson from being one of them. A shame it doesn't name them.
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This is my first attempt at attaching an image to a comment in rootschat. If it worked, attached is the digital image from ScotlandsPeople that corresponds to the following transcription by Hew Morrison in the Parish Register of Durness.
1794 - Angus Sutherland from Sutherland, tenent in Durin, and his wife Mary Calder, alias Doun, nin Hustiandhuine, William, 12 Jan.
I am asking if I am reading this registry entry correctly - the baptism in Durness Parish of William Sutherland, son of Mary Calder, grandson of Hugh Calder, great-grandson of Rob Donn Calder.
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Yes you are correct.
Mary Calder's baptism is in Hew Morison on 31st March 1765, and her marriage on 5th February 1793.
The latter record reveals that Hugh Doun was deceased, and that his wife was Marion MacKenzie.
There's a daughter Christian recorded as baptised in Durine on 8th December 1795. She died in 1858 aged 62 and is buried in Balnakeil alongside her husband George Sutherland (1785-1835), their son George (1835-1892) and his wife Ann Campbell (1836-1903). George senior died on 19th April and his son was baptised on 21st April. There isn't a good match for a birth under his name in 1785 in Hew Morison. I have a picture of the gravestone.
William Sutherland may be the man from Durine who married Christian MacKay and fathered eight children between 1829 and 1843. His patronymic MacEonic doesn't fit (should be MacNish but the location is correct and it may just be a sloppy transcription).
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Thankyou very much for that. I do find it interesting that Marion Macbeth Manson was a governess to your ancestors, the Clarkes, in Keoldale, as Barbara Manson was living in Keoldale when she married Angus Mackay. Maybe she also worked for your family which could account for her being in Keoldale.
Anyway I will certainly share with you anything I find that may be relevant.
My 4 x great granny was Barbara Mackay (nee Manson) I came across your posts and discovered about her sisters Marion and Ann and her parents. New info for me - thank you! I've done some research on them. I'd be keen to compare notes. Not sure if this old RootsChat is still alive but hope so
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Thankyou very much for that. I do find it interesting that Marion Macbeth Manson was a governess to your ancestors, the Clarkes, in Keoldale, as Barbara Manson was living in Keoldale when she married Angus Mackay. Maybe she also worked for your family which could account for her being in Keoldale.
Anyway I will certainly share with you anything I find that may be relevant.
My 4 x great granny was Barbara Mackay (nee Manson) I came across your posts and discovered about her sisters Marion and Ann and her parents. New info for me - thank you! I've done some research on them. I'd be keen to compare notes. Not sure if this old RootsChat is still alive but hope so
BMAM73
Yes it is still alive and very pleased to hear from you. I responded to your original message but may have been months or years after you posted it so guess you didn't see it. From memory Marion married the Clarke who had the Eriboll farm and Ann was in Edinburgh and I found her will I think. I have it somewhere but need to find it.
So if Barbara and Angus were your 4 times which of their children was your 3x?
If you've found Barbara's parents then that's something I haven't managed to do despite years of looking.
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Alexander Falconer Clarke (1802-77) and Marion MacBeth Manson had a son (probably Assistant Surgeon John Clarke) who got my Great-great-grandmother Cathrine Morrison pregnant out of wedlock in 1857
David Morrison (later David Clarke) died in a fishing accident in the Pentland Firth in June 1891. He is commemorated on his mother and stepfather's gravestone as their son, and sits for eternity as a silent rebuke twelve feet from the Clarke Gravestone
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Alexander Falconer Clarke (1802-77) and Marion MacBeth Manson had a son (probably Assistant Surgeon John Clarke) who got my Great-great-grandmother Cathrine Morrison pregnant out of wedlock in 1857
David Morrison (later David Clarke) died in a fishing accident in the Pentland Firth in June 1891. He is commemorated on his mother and stepfather's gravestone as their son, and sits for eternity as a silent rebuke twelve feet from the Clarke Gravestone
I may be wrong but did not Angus Mackay the miller also have a child with Cathrine Morrison?
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Different Cathrine Morrison. This one (1832-1922) married Robert MacDonald and farmed at Sangobeg. The croft share is still in family hands but the croft is uninhabitable.
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Different Cathrine Morrison. This one (1832-1922) married Robert MacDonald and farmed at Sangobeg. The croft share is still in family hands but the croft is uninhabitable.
Sorry got centuries mixed up. Angus did have twins John and Jean with a Catherine Morrison but in 1780. Must have lost them because he named a subsequent child John Jean. Reminds me of Johnny Cash and a boy named Sue.
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Different Cathrine Morrison. This one (1832-1922) married Robert MacDonald and farmed at Sangobeg. The croft share is still in family hands but the croft is uninhabitable.
Sorry got centuries mixed up. Angus did have twins John and Jean with a Catherine Morrison but in 1780. Must have lost them because he named a subsequent child John Jean. Reminds me of Johnny Cash and a boy named Sue.
Mind you being named John Jean Mackay made him quite easy to find in America where a daughter became a minor Broadway star in Ziegfeld's Follies.
(sorry gone off topic)
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Thankyou very much for that. I do find it interesting that Marion Macbeth Manson was a governess to your ancestors, the Clarkes, in Keoldale, as Barbara Manson was living in Keoldale when she married Angus Mackay. Maybe she also worked for your family which could account for her being in Keoldale.
Anyway I will certainly share with you anything I find that may be relevant.
My 4 x great granny was Barbara Mackay (nee Manson) I came across your posts and discovered about her sisters Marion and Ann and her parents. New info for me - thank you! I've done some research on them. I'd be keen to compare notes. Not sure if this old RootsChat is still alive but hope so
BMAM73
Yes it is still alive and very pleased to hear from you. I responded to your original message but may have been months or years after you posted it so guess you didn't see it. From memory Marion married the Clarke who had the Eriboll farm and Ann was in Edinburgh and I found her will I think. I have it somewhere but need to find it.
So if Barbara and Angus were your 4 times which of their children was your 3x?
If you've found Barbara's parents then that's something I haven't managed to do despite years of looking.
Apologies my post above is tosh. Barbara Manson's sister Marianne lived and died in Edinburgh unmarried. Another sister Anne married a James Simpson. So I know of no connection between Barbara Manson wife of Angus Mackay, miller, Badlehavish and Marion Manson who married Alexander Clarke of Eriboll.
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These seem to be the relevant Mansons in the Arnaboll burial ground.
Barbara Manson MACKAY widow of the late Angus MACKAY, Badlehavish, who departed this life 4th June 1842 aged 71 years.
https://public.fotki.com/rhemusaig/burial_grounds/durness_parish/durness_arnaboll/ard1.html
Angus MACKAY, Badlehavish, who departed this life 9th January 1840 aged 91 years
https://public.fotki.com/rhemusaig/burial_grounds/durness_parish/durness_arnaboll/ard2_x_2.html
In memory of Jane SINCLAIR, widow of Alexander MANSON M D Thurso, who died at Eriboll August 18th 1851 aged 76 years. Also of Jane MANSON her daughter who died at Edinburgh July 2nd 1872 aged 63 years
https://public.fotki.com/rhemusaig/burial_grounds/durness_parish/durness_arnaboll/ard12.html
In memory of Helen Sinclair MANSON born Thurso December 27 1805 died at Nairn September 13th 1886
https://public.fotki.com/rhemusaig/burial_grounds/durness_parish/durness_arnaboll/ard13.html
There was some discussion in this thread about the Mansons in Durness, namely Jean, Barbara, and Marion Macbeth, with several posts prior to the above post referring to them. Following very useful info I've received from BMAM73 I've established with some certainty that Barbara Manson is the daughter of Andrew Manson and Ann or Christina Henderson of Reay. Barbara had two sisters, Ann and Marianne but there is no baptismal record for any of them though Andrew Manson had two sons baptised, Andrew and John (who joined the Gordon Highlanders in 1794).
Does anyone know if it was sometimes the practice to have sons baptised but not daughters?
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Does anyone know if it was sometimes the practice to have sons baptised but not daughters?
It sometimes feels like it.
I did read somewhere that if a couple were of different religious denominations, the sons would be baptised in the father's denomination and the girls in the mother's, but I cannot be certain that I have ever come across a verifiable example of this.
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I did read somewhere that if a couple were of different religious denominations, the sons would be baptised in the father's denomination and the girls in the mother's, but I cannot be certain that I have ever come across a verifiable example of this.
Thanks I'll have a look at the Hendersons.