RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: oldcrone on Wednesday 05 April 06 22:31 BST (UK)
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On my maternal grandmother's side of the family, some of our family names are Pannell, Newland and Proudley. I know that these are Romany surnames, often based in Sussex, Surrey and Kent.
My grandmother's mother was called Jane Pannell; Jane's father, James Pannell, was a hawker in Sussex (Horsham area) and we don't think he ever married Fanny Newland, Jane's mother. There were quite a few Pannell children, as well as Jane, and on their birth certificates, some of them were given Newland surnames, and also Proudley. Apparently, it was quite common for couples not to marry and for their children to have the mother's surname.
All this was largely suppressed in our family (my grandmother said we had 'spanish connections'!).
Does anyone have any experience of any Romany message boards? Googling doesn't seem to be a lot of help (ie BBC message boards for 'young Romanys') .
Many thanks
Clara
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Hi Clara,
There is the Romany and Traveller Family History Society:
http://www.rtfhs.org.uk/
They operate an e-mail list where members can post enquiries.
There is also the UK-Romani Mailing List on Rootsweb:
http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/UK/UK-ROMANI.html
Dimps
Dimps
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Many thanks for your help, Dimps, will try them both. ;)
best wishes
Clara
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Hi Clara,
I have some friends local to me here in West Sussex with the surname Pannell. Do you want me to run those names by them for you ?
Regards
Lorraine
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Cheers, Lorraine, that would be great!
James and Fanny Pannell's children were Betsy, Eliza, Emily, James, Jane (my g-grandmother), Rosa, Henry, Albert and Fred, born between 1865 and 1888 mainly around the Horsham area.
many thanks
Clara
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Re Pannell
I don't really know how unusual the name Pannell is, but many years ago I conducted some research on behalf of a third party who asked me to document the family of George (b1790) & Jemima Pannell of Brighton.
The most fascinating thing was that after his son's death in 1904 (also George b1832), George's pocket watch turned up on one of the unidentified corpses from the Titanic.
Roy G
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Hi Lorraine, wondered if you'd managed to chase up any family connection with your Pannell friends? :)
And thanks again, Dimps, I've tried the websites you've mentioned: the Romany and Traveller website looks great - I just need to pay a bit of money to join, and then you can access the message board. Couldn't believe that on the front page of this site, it says something like: 'these are the most common Romani names and occupations'....; and amongst them I find my own family names and occupations: Pannell, Newland and Proudley, hawkers and basket makers!
The Rootsweb Romani site looks a bit fraught with infighting over political correctness!! Felt a bit intimidated to post anything on that one!!
Clara
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hello all, as a Romany Gypsy myeslf i know how hard it can be to find your roots.
Many changed their names when settling down and often births, deaths and marriages where not registered for the Gypsy so many of our ancestors are extremely hard to find!
Although i've joined a number of websites looking for imformation its still extremely hard.
However i do find that word of mouth often helps as the Romany grapevine is still very alive so often joining a Romany websites can be useful. Sadly many of us have fiery tempers n short fuses so there is sometimes heated debate and as we are private people others may mistake us for stanoffish - but actually we are very friendly folki!
I can however recommend one site which i know will offer a warm welcome and has a very indepth geneology section - www.journeyfolki. org.uk - its a very proffessional site and also very amiable folki run it - dey promote and perpetuate the Romany and Travellars way of life through education, inspiration, information and conversation. Although it is a relatively new site the site is run by well established persons and the geneology experts on the site are on hand to guide and advise you on how to find your Gypsy ancestors - they have helped me in these matters and i know are exztremely proffessional at their work.
If anyone has any information for myself realating to a Babentta Cannes, born around 1940s, please let me know. thank you. I am aware he travelled the North as showfolki in the 60s and i may have a brother or uncle called Nazir Cannes - any help will be gratefully accepted.
my best wishes,
kushti bok!
SHAHNEE CANNES
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Thanks, Shahnee, for the info! I certainly will chase up the site you mentioned - cheers for that. :)
'Fiery tempers and short fuses' sounds a bit familiar..... ???
Clara
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Wow! Is this all the Romany messages so far?! Not many, hey? (Or are they hiding elsewhere?).
Here's my twopence worth ...
I'm looking for Taylor Romanies who seem to have travelled in the Suffolk and Norfolk areas and subsequently settled in West Ham (Canning Town, Plaistow).
My great grandmother was Susan Taylor (b. 1891 - Plaistow) and her father was Alger Taylor / Algar Taylor (b. abt. 1862 - probably Suffolk). Mother Naomi's maiden name kept changing on the other siblings' birth certs from Lee to Smith and back again (gah! ... just don't ask! Romany family research is enough to make you tear your hair out sometimes).
I found a 1879 marriage cert for an Alger Taylor and Naomi Lee (Alger son of James Taylor - Carman and Naomi daughter of Benjamin Lee - Traveller) ... but a likely birth cert acquisition for Naomi - which showed her mother as Naomi Lee formerly Smith - showed father as Thomas Lee ???
Alger/Algar's father was James Taylor (b. abt the early 1840's, again probably in Suffolk) and his mother was also a Naomi ... a possibly-connected marriage cert points to her being a Buckley (daughter of Joiner Buckley, Licensed Hawker) - but because not a one of Naomi and James' 10 kids' births were registered I can't verify her maiden name and whether that marriage cert was actually hers >:(
Anyone else fumbling with a Taylor - Lee - Smith - Buckley jigsaw out there? Let's compare notes and see if we can't make some sense out of them!
Had to laugh about the "fiery tempers and short fuses" quote ... the Taylors are on my mum's side and that describes her to a 'T' - I love her lots, though! ;)
Sarah
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Hello all. I to am having trouble finding info on my maternal gypsy gt g/parents. I've got their death certificates, but can't track down their marriage. He was a hawker all his life, she a hawkers wife. Nice easy names to find :P Bibby and Smith. They lived for many years in the Leigh / Southend.Essex area. :) Lyn
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Hello again, Names are very important when chasing our elusive ansestors with the our people!
Dosnt surprise me about the Buckly/Smith /Lee connections as its quite a family affair der - as many of these 3 famillies intermarried - i no many with grandparent navs of Buckly/Smith/Lee or combinations of all three! These are famous Rom names - as some of u may b aware!
A suggestion is to "google" the navs - dat has worked for me!
Some of the well renown fammillies have der own sites and geneiolgy - so its useful to check the tree and see it your releative is der!
Hope you were all able to take a lookat the www.journeyfolki.org.uk, its there for all Gypsy and Travellar folki and descendants - there is no concerns wether you are half, quater, eighth etc - you have a wondergful heritage to explore and this can only further your knowledge and inspire your life.
Does anybody reconise the surmname Cannes? Would be greatful if anyone has heard of this nav or perhaps said parents/grandparents may know the nav?
If youre able to help please post back here and let me know would you?
To all those Buckley/Smith/Lee descendants - those navs will be far easier to find then some of the less well known navs of the Romany so dont give up - and with those navs many Romany and Travellar Sites will reconsise the navs and be able to help - wishing you all the best!
kushti bok!
SHAHNEE CANNES XXX
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In reply to Britgals post
The bit about Naomi being a daughter of Joiner Buckley sort of rings a bell to me
I have a Joiner Buckley - who lived around Suffolk - who is my g-g-g-g grandad -he had quite a few children, Frank Buckley being one of them, but he also had a daughter by the name of Naomi, however im not sure who she married to, Joiner was married to a lady called Sarah (or Seni) Smith
If this helps let me know and i will try and find out some more information for you :)
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Hi Babygirlbill,
ANY help you could provide would be most appreciated. I was in touch with someone away from RootsChat who provided me with a Buckley tree from the Bexley Archives (not sure what these are - other than archives, obviously ;D). It shows a Joiner Buckley b. circa 1810 - a Tinker - who was married to a Seni Smith. Not much doubt this matches with your guys. Their kids are: Santalina (male), Ganation (male), Justinia, Arkless (male), Frank, Kiomi and Noah. The 'Kiomi' is shown as being married to Jimmy Taylor, so it's likely it was a mistranscription somewhere along the line from Naomi to Kiomi. Just wishing my g-g-g grandfather James Taylor had slightly less common name!! I get the feeling that my Naomi and James WERE the couple on that marriage cert (from my previous message), but unless I can find something (a baptism of one of their 10 kids?) which shows my Naomi's maiden name, it's just a hopeful theory.
BTW the tree from the Bexley Archives shows more generations of Santalina and Frank.
I've attached a pic - the only one we have - of my grandmother Clara Naomi Skingley (daughter of Susan Taylor - so one half pure Romany, other half rural Essex girl from way back). She died aged 28 in 1943 when my mother was only 4.
The circumstances surrounding her death were very sad - this is what I've so far discovered ... Clara became pregnant to someone else while my grandfather, Harry Blackman, was away at sea during WW2 and either she was booted out or he left and took their two children with him when he returned. She died of pneumonia and complications of the childbirth. The child, named Veronica Blackman on the birth cert (registered by Clara 6 weeks before she died) was adopted by people so far unknown but suspected of being relatives of Susan Taylor's second husband Benjamin Owen (Thomas Skingley, the first, died in WW1). The adoptive parents changed her surname so she'd never find out the circumstances surrounding her birth (or, of course, her true background). So, somewhere out there my mum has a half sister - someone who is probably completely unaware of her 1/4 Rom heritage.
Then, less than a year later, Susan Taylor herself died. I'm currently waiting for the death cert ... but a descendant of one of Susan and Benjamin Owen's children has said that there's an old family rumour that Susan tried to kill herself because she was so upset over daughter Clara's death - but ended up in a mental institution when her suicide attempt failed. The alternative rumour going about in the family was that, while running to an air raid shelter in the dark during the Blitz, she collided with a beam that was shoring up a bomb-damaged house - receiving a fatal blow to the head. Either way, my great grandma died at 52, regardless. Of what ... and exactly where ... watch this space!
BFN, Sarah
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Hi Clara
I can recommend this site http://www.bbc.co.uk/kent/romany_roots/
(actually not just Kent)-there are two active message boards and they have proved useful in locating living rellies connected to my tree. Here's a tip though-take a look at the previous messages before posting (some have a style of wording which get no answers at all, others get lots of help ;))
good luck
Monique
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Many thanks, Monique! :)
Will check out the site.....
best wishes
Clara
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Hi there, sarshin?
The other spelling to the nav Cannes, i'm informed, maybe Cairnes, is this reconisable to anyone?
Also does anyone know the nav Ellwood?
thank you for your time, much appreciated!
My best wishes,
kushti bok!
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Reply to Britgal
Hi thanks for the reply, yes thats my family. I have seen her down as Kiomi too so she either registered herself under different names (as they tend to do) or it was just misinterpreted.
I have forwarded your query onto someone away from this board who knows a lot more about this then me, i met her on a Newham family history board, if you want more information about people living in Canning Town, West Ham etc its a really good place to go
http://apps.newham.gov.uk/forums/localhistory/start.pl
heres the link, why not leave a post on there?
Do you have a copy of the tree from the Bexley archives, as i dont really have much info apart from there names, I have a book about Buckleys, which is taking from the Journals of the Gypsy Lore Society - shes down as Kiomi in that, married to a Jimmy Taylor.
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Clara !
Liverpool University has a great collection !!
http://sca.lib.liv.ac.uk/collections/gypsy/intro.htm
Annie :)
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A new Travellers board has been added to Rootschat:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,158485.0.html
Dimps
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Hello all. I to am having trouble finding info on my maternal gypsy gt g/parents. I've got their death certificates, but can't track down their marriage. He was a hawker all his life, she a hawkers wife. Nice easy names to find :P Bibby and Smith. They lived for many years in the Leigh / Southend.Essex area. :) Lyn
you dont say what their names are???
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Hi Babygirlbill,
ANY help you could provide would be most appreciated. I was in touch with someone away from RootsChat who provided me with a Buckley tree from the Bexley Archives (not sure what these are - other than archives, obviously ;D). It shows a Joiner Buckley b. circa 1810 - a Tinker - who was married to a Seni Smith. Not much doubt this matches with your guys. Their kids are: Santalina (male), Ganation (male), Justinia, Arkless (male), Frank, Kiomi and Noah. The 'Kiomi' is shown as being married to Jimmy Taylor, so it's likely it was a mistranscription somewhere along the line from Naomi to Kiomi. Just wishing my g-g-g grandfather James Taylor had slightly less common name!! I get the feeling that my Naomi and James WERE the couple on that marriage cert (from my previous message), but unless I can find something (a baptism of one of their 10 kids?) which shows my Naomi's maiden name, it's just a hopeful theory.
BTW the tree from the Bexley Archives shows more generations of Santalina and Frank.
I've attached a pic - the only one we have - of my grandmother Clara Naomi Skingley (daughter of Susan Taylor - so one half pure Romany, other half rural Essex girl from way back). She died aged 28 in 1943 when my mother was only 4.
The circumstances surrounding her death were very sad - this is what I've so far discovered ... Clara became pregnant to someone else while my grandfather, Harry Blackman, was away at sea during WW2 and either she was booted out or he left and took their two children with him when he returned. She died of pneumonia and complications of the childbirth. The child, named Veronica Blackman on the birth cert (registered by Clara 6 weeks before she died) was adopted by people so far unknown but suspected of being relatives of Susan Taylor's second husband Benjamin Owen (Thomas Skingley, the first, died in WW1). The adoptive parents changed her surname so she'd never find out the circumstances surrounding her birth (or, of course, her true background). So, somewhere out there my mum has a half sister - someone who is probably completely unaware of her 1/4 Rom heritage.
Then, less than a year later, Susan Taylor herself died. I'm currently waiting for the death cert ... but a descendant of one of Susan and Benjamin Owen's children has said that there's an old family rumour that Susan tried to kill herself because she was so upset over daughter Clara's death - but ended up in a mental institution when her suicide attempt failed. The alternative rumour going about in the family was that, while running to an air raid shelter in the dark during the Blitz, she collided with a beam that was shoring up a bomb-damaged house - receiving a fatal blow to the head. Either way, my great grandma died at 52, regardless. Of what ... and exactly where ... watch this space!
BFN, Sarah
i have a kiomi/niomi in my tree who is married to james taylor. she was the daughter of seni & joiner buckley/smith. let me know if you would like any info on them, although i dont have much i have to say. but you never know till you ask, do you and every bit helps with these travelling people.
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hi all,
anyone know how i would look at the bexley archives on-line for the buckley tree that britgirl has mentioned. thank you.
m. :-\
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hi clara iam new to this site i was just reading about jane pannell do you think that she could have known a traveller by the name of ernest, onnie, ommie smith around 1900 1910 dont now excet date doing a family tree ernest smith was my husband GGRANDDAD any info would be great thanks
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Hi Sarah
You asked <<Anyone else fumbling with a Taylor - Lee - Smith - Buckley jigsaw out there? Let's compare notes and see if we can't make some sense out of them!>>
Yes - I am too. There are quite a few of us on this message board who share your interests. I'll check through my Taylor file to see if I have any baptisms that might give you the evidence you need as to Naomi's surname.
Best wishes
Sharon
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Hi I am related to the romany Proudleys of sussex horsham area also saunders,mitchell,Jones & rays to name a few they sure are a difficult bunch to research. quite often than not the children did take thier mothers name as their parents were not married this happened right up until my nan being born although she was not even aware of this until 10 years ago.
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hiya ..ive recently come interested in finding out information about my grandfather etc who were romamy gypsies ,,his name was CHARLES JACK CURTIS and lived in Wallasey, Wirral but i also know he had relatives down in Norwich? can anyone lead me in the right direction on how too find out more about my roots..many thanks..Angela
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Welcome to Rootschat, Angela. Posting unrelated messages on someone else's thread not only confuses the existing thread but means your post might be overlooked so I've moved your other post looking for Charles Jack Curtis and if anyone can help with information or suggest where to look next they can post details there-
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,458141.msg3192388.html#msg3192388
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hallo Clare,Just found this site .your message was way back in 2006! so this a shot in the dark!Ihave ancestors also with the names Newland ,Proudley,and even Pannell.My 3 times great grandparents were Samuel Newland.traveller Basket maker. and Charlotte Proudley.Hawker, her father Edward [tin man]and his wife Mary boghurst.nearer the present my grandmother Mary ann Newland who Passed away in 1980,s. All in the sussex area.
Rital
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Rital, I’m new to this and you typed ages ago re the Proudleys. I too am descended from Edward Proudley and Mary Boghurst (they are my 4xgreats) from their son Joseph, his son Joseph, then his daughter, Edith, then my grandma and my mum! I hope this reaches you xxx
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[quote author=Roy G link=topic=146170.msg679734#msg679734 date=114508578
The most fascinating thing was that after his son's death in 1904 (also George b1832), George's pocket watch turned up on one of the unidentified corpses from the Titanic.
Roy G
[/quote]
Presumably it had been sold on after his death. Sometimes such watches still appear in jewellers shops for sale. The engraving of course refers to the original owner.