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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Garen on Sunday 23 April 06 23:41 BST (UK)
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I thought I'd have a go at posting a brick wall which is still holding strong after a few years of me looking at it and scratching my head. As I think the answer may involve some obscure military record somewhere (or not), I'm posting it in the Armed Forces section...
My ggg-grandmother was a girl called Catherine Campbell. The interesting thing about Catherine is that all her census entries (except 1841, which is 'not born in county') give her birth place as France (British Subject), and the year tends to hover around 1815. Indeed a family story from a distant cousin says she was born at Waterloo.
I'll just check those ages: 1841 - 29 (1811-12), 1851 - 35 (1815-16), 1861 - 45 (1815-16), 1871 - 56 (1814-15), 1881 - 60 (1820-21!).
She died 26 Jun 1889, age 75 according to the certificate (1814-15). The certificate also gives some names for her parents (my brick wall):
Donald CAMPBELL Sergeant in the 42nd Regiment (deceased)
Barbara CAMPBELL m/s STEVENSON (deceased)
The informant was her son-in-law, Charles McGregor, so I don't know how accurate these names are, but it's all I have to go on. Some more facts about Catherine:
She married Donald CAMERON in Aug 1837 at Caputh, and the family lived most of their time in Clunie, Perthshire where her husband was a farmer, but also the local church officer. They had 9 children from 1839 until 1856, two of whom went into the 72nd Highlanders, perhaps a suggestion of something military in their family background. One of Catherine's daughters was called Barbara, and there was also a Donald, but that could be for Donald Cameron (her husband).
I have not been able to find any sign of Sergeant Donald Campbell, 42nd Foot, or Barbara Stevenson. I did find a couple of Donald Campbells of the 42nd Foot on the The National Archive's searchable catalogue, and when at Kew a couple of years ago looked them up and discounted them (I can't find my notes on them now!). I was once sent a copy of a Waterloo database page that had D. Campbells on, and the 42nd only seemed to own one - a Duncan Campbell.
I searched for Catherine’s birth in GRO REGIMENTAL BIRTH INDICES (1761 to 1924) (and supplement) and Army Chaplain’s returns under Campbell, Stevenson and Stephenson. Also searched GRO ARMY CHAPLAINS DEATH INDICES (1796 to 1880) Stevenson, Stephenson and Campbell. Nada.
I have poked scotlandspeople a few times, spending a few credits on various Barbara Ste*ensons, and balking at the too numerous Donald Campbells - they could be anywhere.
I'm left wondering if his name *was* Donald Campbell? Another idea is - was he in the 42nd Foot? Both his grandsons went into the 72nd Foot - maybe their choice was dictated by Donald actually also being in the 72nd? I see one Donald Campbell on the Waterloo database in the 72nd. Or maybe he was in another regiment altogether... Did Barbara marry Donald? Or was Catherine illegitimate? What was Barbara Stevenson doing in France anyway?
Well, I could go on with the questions and theories! Sorry to give out so much info, but if anyone has any ideas at all - I'd be most grateful. I'd love to know what became of Donald and Barbara, and what gggg-grandfather did in the (Peninsular) war, an area I know very little about.
I have more on the Clunie Camerons at http://www.garenewing.co.uk/family/cameron.html
My thanks - Garen.
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Hi Garen !
I'll start off ...... ::) you said you've been wondering about the 72nd Foot but this is what I think ...
The 73rd Highlanders came from the 2nd Battalion 42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foot, which was raised in 1779. Eight officers were detached from the 1st Battalion to help raise the new 2nd Battalion which soon took shape.
A 2nd Battalion is Raised
In 1806 the 73rd returned to Scotland and raised a 2nd Battalion of its own. In 1809, due to recruiting difficulties the Battalion was ordered to discard Highland Dress and was no longer to be recognised as a Highland unit - no vestige of tartan was to be worn. All this was in an effort to encourage English to join the ranks to assuage recruiting problems.
In 1815 the 2nd Battalion of the 73rd arrived at the Battle of Quatre Bras in which 53 men were killed and wounded. Two days later at Waterloo whilst serving with Major General Halkett’s Brigade, which was part of Lieutenant General Sir Charles Alten’s 3rd Division, the Battalion was charged no less than 11 times by French Cavalry. It stood solidly in square and was frequently fired upon by French Artillery.
When the 2nd Battalion disbanded in 1817, some 300 of its men went out to Ceylon to join the 1st Battalion.
Annie :)
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Well Garen - I had it in my head that maybe - he was on SS Birkehead ..... but I've finally found the list and he's not on it .... then I realised - he would have been much too old ..... but I'm posting it anyways in case you see somebody else you know !! :)
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ridge/2216/text/BIRK.TXT
The Birkenhead
In 1851, in the company of troops from other regiments, men of the 73rd Regiment sailed in the Birkenhead to reinforce the British Army engaged in the Kaffir War in South Africa. At two o'clock on the morning of the 28th February 1852 the ship struck a rock just east of Cape Town breaking in half 10 minutes later. The troops were drawn up on deck and told by the ship's officers that their only hope of safety lay in jumping overboard and swimming for the boats. Their own officers explained that to do this would imperil the chances of escape for the many women and children who were already in the boats. The men stood firm in their ranks as the Birkenhead sank. 357 men drowned, 56 from the 73rd - more than from any other regiment.
here's a snippet I found .....
CAMPBELL - Paymaster-Sergeant Ronald - 42nd Regiment.
Died 20th April 1833, aged 27 years. Buried in Msida Bastion Cemetery.
http://website.lineone.net/~stephaniebidmead/c2.htm
Annie :)
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Annie - many thanks for your reply and thoughts on this. The 73rd is certainly an option, but then so is anything at the moment! The trouble is, I could be staring right at Donald Campbell and not know it's him, as I guess I need some connection to either Barbara or Catherine to be sure, which may not be possible.
I think this may remain a family mystery, but I won't totally give up on it. For a start, one of these days I'm going to have to brush up on the Waterloo period, but I'm too obsessed with the second Anglo-Afghan war to spare the time!
Thank you again, very much appreciated.
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Some idle rambling thinking-out-loud...
Why was Barbara in France, unless she was a soldier’s wife, in which case maybe her and Donald (if that’s his name) *were* married and there could be a record somewhere (but not in Scotland according to OPRs on scotlandspeople). Another reason could be if she was the daughter of another soldier on service (hadn't considered that before*). Was she English? I presume she came to Scotland, as Catherine must have ended up there for some reason, so this might indicate a Scots background. Unless it wasn’t Barbara who brought her back. Did either Donald or Barbara make it back to Britain? Catherine did. Where was she before she married Donald Cameron in 1837 at Caputh?
* If Barbara Stevenson was the daughter of a serving soldier, perhaps she met a Sergeant in the same regiment... some contenders from PROCAT:
WO 97/582/18
JOHN STEVENSON Born KILSYTH, Stirlingshire Served in 42nd Foot Regiment Discharged aged 24
1811-1815
WO 97/582/19
JOHN STEVENSON Born BRECHIN, Angus Served in 42nd Foot Regiment Discharged aged 30
1803-1814
WO 97/582/20
JAMES STEVENSON Born KILSYTH, Stirlingshire Served in 42nd Foot Regiment Discharged aged 33
1803-1816
WO 97/582/21
JOHN STEVENSON Born AYR, Ayrshire Served in 42nd Foot Regiment Discharged aged 41
1827-1848
WO 97/582/22
JOHN STEVENSON Born KILWINNING, Ayrshire Served in 42nd Foot Regiment Discharged aged 39
1829-1851
The first three are too young, I'm sure. I'll have to check these out some time.
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Here's some more idle rambling thinking-out-loud... ::)
1. Many Scots went to France during the Industrial Revolution ! - maybe her family were involved with the looms and wool etc !!
2. Wonder if her first husband died ( Stevenson/Stephenson ) and she married Donald to stay with the strength
3. I'm sorry to say trying to get information about BMD 's in France is like pulling teeth unless you can find out the area .... ! but there are a few people on here who maybe able to point you in the right direction .... !
4. I imagine you've already tried Scottish Archives ??
http://www.nas.gov.uk/
Annie
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Well Garen !!
This is all I've found for 2 days work ........... ::) but I'm sure you'll be interested in the Malta website .... the 42nd were there !! and I found this "Donald" - but the wrong time frame and wrong regiment - but this is one of those "just in case " to keep on the back burner - you never know - could be related !! in the baptisms and deaths there are Campbells and Stevensons - might want to look through them and see for yourself ...... be prepared to be there for a while ....... :)
CAMPBELL, Donald, buried 22nd February 1873, Private, 74th (Highland) Regiment
http://website.lineone.net/~remosliema/c3.htm
Chapter 25 and 26 is about the 42nd !
http://website.lineone.net/~stephaniebidmead/chapter1920.htm
Annie :) :)
PS I just had to share this - if only for the photo at the end !! ;) ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Watch
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Thank you for your tireless activity, Annie! This is really good of you and is helping me to focus on a problem that I keep putting on the back-burner. I will have a look at those sites, hopefully this weekend when I have some time (I hope!). You've stirred up the old brain on this and I really appreciate it. I did check out what the NAS had a couple of years ago and seem to remember I didn't think there as anything that would help, but I'll have a nother look anyway.
Thanks again -
Garen.
P.S the picture... reminds me of that scene in Carry on up the Khyber where the lifting of the kilts won the day!
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All I could think of was ..."Donald where's your trewsers " :P :P :P :P :P
( pardon the pun !! and apologies to Anne !! ;) ;))
Annie
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OK Garen !
I'm probably trying to teach my Grandmother to suck eggs ..... but here goes !! :P sometimes I forget to go back to basics ....... just a thought ! ::) ::) ::)
Using Hugh Wallis's website - find the batch number for Caputh / Clunie baptisms of the right timespan - then go to the online IGI - on the online IGI - input region = British Isles, and batch number = eg C113371 then search (no names or dates input).
That returns a long list (a few hundred) and page down until the Campbell / Stevenson's appear
Checking those records should give the birth and baptism dates and the parents' names.
Caputh
C113371
1855-1875
M113371
1855-1875
C113372
1670-1719
M113372
1671-1720
C113374
1721-1783
M113374
1721-1784
C113375
1783-1819
M113375
1783-1820
C113376
1820-1854
M113376
1820-1854
Clunie
C113391
1855-1875
M113391
1855-1875
C113392
1702-1753
M113392
1702-1753
C113394
1754-1820
M113394
1794-1819
C113395
1820-1855
M113395
1820-1854
Annie :)
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OK Garen !!
After some discussion regarding your family ...... not a whole heck of a lot but a couple of things that may "spark" you !!
1. Wonder whether there are any mentions of Catherine's parents in the Caputh/Clunie area - MIs or deaths in parish registers ... as above !
2. The 1841 enumerator's dilema over what to put for Catherine's birthplace - the choices ....... in county - elsewhere in Scotland - in England - Ireland or Foreign - don't cover a British Subject born overseas! So ignore 1841 and accept what all the other censuses say !
3. You might like to use the search facility on TalkingScot about British births in France - and perhaps even post there - if you haven't already done so - there's also a bit of military expertise on that site - worth a shot !!
http://www.talkingscot.com
4. You didn't mention the actual entries in the Parish Registers for Catherine's marriage and for the births of the children - wonder if there might be any clues in the wording or in names of witnesses or sponsors ?
Hope you're having a good week !
Annie :)
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Annie - apologies for the delay in thanking you... got some diearies from the Afghan war, plus a marvellous old book, and they (and that thing called work) have kept me away, as usual, from my own family history.
Sincere thanks for all your thinking on this. I hadn't really considered the batch searches, haven't used them for a few years and have fallen out of the habit.
For the other points:
1) All I can say is not in the Clunie graveyard, which I tramped around in 2002, and then got the MIs later, but worth looking into. My feeling is they weren't in Clunie, but I woin't rely on my feelings!
2) 1841 is 'Born in County? N', so that's consistent.
3) I made one post of Talking Scot a little while ago, then forgot about it. Thanks - I will get over there.
4) OPRs: I have marriage of Donald Cameron and Catherine Campbell 15th Aug 1837 (in the absence of anyone else, I'm 90% confident they're mine)which says 'both of this Parish' (Caputh), no witnesses mentioned (from scotlandspeople). No clues on the childrens' birth OPRs either really - all very basic.
I spent some credits on the scotlandspeople 1841 census looking at Campbells and Camerons in the Clunie/Caputh area, with nothing positive. Thanks again Annie, you have given me some good ideas.
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Twelve years later, an update ...
I now know that Catherine Campbell was indeed born in France, and that the information on her death certificate was (mostly) correct - her father was, as recorded, Donald Campbell, a sergeant in the 42nd Foot, her mother was Barbara Stevens.
Donald seems to have been born in Halkirk, Caithness and enlisted at Glasgow in Aug 1802, he was made sergeant in Sept 1807. He had a son in Gibraltar in 1807/08, and another at Musselburgh in 1810. Catherine would probably have been born in France while the 42nd were part of the occupying army after Waterloo, so perhaps in Paris in the second half of the year. The regiment (and family) would have been back in Britain in December 1815.
Catherine Campbell was a brick wall for nearly 18 years, so it's great to at last shine a light on her story and reveal her family, and some cousins for her children. The key was discovering the baptism of a brother, Alexander - such a great feeling to see names I'd had with a huge question mark on them for so long there in black and white :-)
Now to see if I can solve the other brick wall - her husband, Donald Cameron! Perhaps I'll be back with that answer in another twelve years ...
- Garen
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There's a wee village in Perthshire called Waterloo? Naw? :P
Skoosh.
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Another update - I have now discovered, I think, the origins of Catherine Campbell's mother, Barbara Steven (Stevens/Stevenson). It turns out she had three husbands in the 42nd Foot. Here's an article on it all:
'Finding Mrs Keir (http://www.garenewing.co.uk/rainboworchid/blog/blog.php?request=permalink&entryid=703)'
- Garen
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Very good post Garen! ;D
Skoosh.
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A late reply - but thank you, Skoosh :-)