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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: proteantime on Sunday 14 May 06 11:29 BST (UK)
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:D Hi,
I believe I may have found the parents of my (brick-walled) Rea(y) family who I am guessing were involved in the droving of cattle south through Carlisle and Penrith.
The son William Rea is listed in 1841 in Penrith as being 40 years of age and a Cattle Dealer born in Scotland. Also living in the house was a 33 year old John Maxwell who is also a Cattle Dealer.
In 1851 William Rea is listed as a butcher in Carlisle and is 53 years of age. The Maxwell gentleman is not present but one of William Rea's sons married a Maxwell girl from Dumfriess/Galloway district in Australia in 1860 and so we believe there may be a connection.
Here is the details for John Maxwell (from the LDS IGI):
John Maxwell
Birth: About 1807 Of Halleaths, Dumfries, Scotland
Spouse: Elizabeth Johnston
I believe that Halleaths is near Lockerbie - not far from Durrisdeer but please correct me if I am wrong.
Here is what I believe to be William's birth (from the LDS IGI):
WILLIAM RAE
Christening: 05 JAN 1800 Bridge Of Scar, Dumfries, Scotland
Father: Robert Rae Mother: Margaret Lorimer
I have been unable to find the Bridge of Scar on a map but believe it to in the hills above Durrisdeer. Here are the connected IGI listings I could find:
ROBERT RAE
Birth: About 1768 Of, Tynron, Dumfries, Scotland
Spouse: Margaret Lorimer
MARGARET LORIMER:
Birth: About 1772 Of, Tynron, Dumfries, Scotland
Spouse: Robert Rae (
Tynron is approx. 16.5 miles from Dumfries)
Other children:
ROBERT RAE
Christening: 03 JUL 1814 Durrisdeer, Dumfries, Scotland
Father: Robert Rae Mother: Margaret Lorimer
JOHN RAE
Christening: 29 DEC 1816 Drumcrool, Durrisdeer, Dumfries, Scotland
Father: Robert Rae Mother: Margaret Lorimer
JEAN KENNEDY RAE
Christening: 21 OCT 1819 Durrisdeer, Dumfries, Scotland
Father: ROBERT RAE Mother: MARGARET LORIMER
Any help in locating these people on the 1841 census, in parish resources or indeed in connection with cattle and/or shipbuilding would be fantastic.
Thank you in advance for your time and energy.
Kirsten
Heemskerk Netherlands
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hear is the link for free 1841 census
http://freecen.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
audrey
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;)
thanks....busy searching under the spelling Rae which seems to be more applicable.
I'll come back with some possibilities.
I know so little about this areas history and wonder what became of his family after he moved south and became part of the larger Waller family in Westmorland. I wonder how common it was for Scottish men from the border counties to marry and settle in Cumberland and Westmorland.
Kindest regards
Kirsten
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Hi,
I am direct Descendant of Robert Rae (c.1774-1847) and Margaret Lorimer (1778-1867) through their son, David Rae (c.1813, Sanquhar, though baptism unrecorded.Died Glasgow 1860). Margaret Lorimer was the daughter of Thomas Lorimer (c.1735-1826), sometime farmer in Durisdeer/Sanquhar, and Margaret Hunter (c.1754-1825). Robert was the son (so far as I am able to tell) of William Rae and Mary Brown. When Robert Rae died, he was living at Raefield in Sanquhar. The 1841 census describes him as an 'agricultural worker', but his son (with whom he was living) had a farm of a reasonable size.
I know of no connections with England, nor with cattle dealing as such, nor any connections with the Maxwells, save that a William Rae, of Durrisdeer (Sanquhar) married a Grizzel Maxwell. This William Rae is not the one you referred to, born at Bridge of Scar (the latter being brother to my g.g.g.g.Grandfather, David).
The family grave for the Raes and Lorimers lies in Sanquhar Kirkyard. Here Thomas Lorimer (father to Margaret above) is described as a farmer of 200 acres (quite a plot, even nowadays).
I hope these details will be of interest to you. I live in the Highlands, so my opportunities for rummaging around Dumfriesshire are fairly limited.
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Hi
I have also researched the Rae family ....
William Rae & Grizzel Maxwell,Durisdeer
their son William Rae a farmer, Gateslack farm,Durisdeer & Mary Brown,
their son William Rae born Durisdeer m Catherine Kinnear,William a farmer,Ryehill,Sanquhar.
I have other bits of info on this family if interested.
Fiona
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By all means, Fiona. William Rae jnr., and his wife, Catherine Kinnear had at least five children, one of whom had the name Roberta. This suggests a link with my Durrisdeer/Sanquhar Raes, since the forename 'Robert' crops up repeatedly there. However, I have been unable to link William Rae senior with my family. The William Rae b. 1800 (in my line) was the son of Robert Rae and Margaret Lorimer, not William Rae and Grizzel Maxwell. I suppose (it's easy to confuse generations) that William Rae (husband to Grizzel) might have been a brother to Robert Rae. That's a possibility.
Ruadh.
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Hi Ruadh
welcome to Rootschat
I have no connection with Rae's, I researched the Rae's for my Uncle about 6years ago and passed all info onto him.When I read the Rea(y),Durrisdeer post it rang some bells,so I am going by notes and previous/viewed records on SP.You may already have this info but will type all from my notes including William Rae/Grizzel Maxwell info, incase you make a connection with them in the future.
William Rae & Grizzel Maxwell - no marriage record found
recorded children
1.WILLIAM b 26th June 1771 - died 1859 Gateslack,Durisdeer
2.Jean b 3rd Aug 1772
3.Margaret b 12th Mar 1775 - poss died 1858 Durisdeer,poss married Robert Gibson
4.Jean b 15th June 1777
5.Grizel b 1779
all born Durisdeer
WILLIAM RAE & Mary Brown - no marriage record found
recorded childen
1.William b 27th Sep 1806
2.Adam b 28th Mar 1808
3.Janet b 8th April 1809 :-\
4.Grizzel b 7th June 1809 :-\
5.Grizzel b 7th June 1811
6.Agnes b 28th Jan 1814
7.WILLIAM b 1st Jan 1818 - poss died 1882
all born Durisdeer
I have other bits of info re William & Mary's children including a child Grace which at the moment doesnt make sense :-\,spouses,occupation and a place called Gracefield House,Dumfries.I can find no reference to where I got this info,again it is from notes,let me know if you are interested.
WILLIAM RAE m Catherine Kinnear 28th Feb 1844 Edinburgh & Sanquhar - poss parents for Catherine as Robert Kinnear & Elisabeth Mitchell
children
1.Elizabeth Mitchel b1845 Sanquhar
2.William b1847 "
3.Mary Brown b1848 "
4.Catherine b1850 "
5.Roberta b1855 Durisdeer
6.Grace Maxwe(ll)Rae b1858 Durisdeer
above is almost all I have as I passed all info to my Uncle,unless I have more notes undiscovered.Hope this is of help to you.
Fiona
had a look at your research names,I have a Helen Johnstone JARDINE babt1896 Kirkmahoe,Dumfries, m David Richardson any connection?
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Thanks, Fiona.
William Rae (d.1859), husband of Grizzel Maxwell, left a will dated 1860, and available for inspection at Scotlandspeople.org (for £5..). I gave it a miss.
His father, William, died in 1792, with his own will being proved in 1795. Sadly, the paucity of 18thC baptismal and marriage records (non-existent in some parishes) make the business of unearthing links frustrating. Thus, Wills can be a useful entry point on tricky lines, where all else fails.
Helen Jardine could well be a connection. I am descended from James Jardine and Helen Cowan of Canonbie, through their daughter, Janet (1778-c1851) and Andrew Rutherford (1773-1851). However, this is one ancestral seam I have yet to mine. Jardines abound in Dumfriesshire.
If you have any references to Robert Rae/ Margaret Lorimer or Thomas Rae (farmed at Durisdeer, and whose entire brood seemed to vanish c. 1861- probably to America..) I would be interested to see them.
Ruadh.
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Hi
I know of William's will and advised my Uncle who declined to purchase.Wow :o,you have William's father, can you share William's father details I could never find either of his parents.
I have not pursued Helen Johnstone Jardines line,Helen was the 2nd wife of my GGrandfather David Richardson who lived and died 1953 at The Marches,Canonbie,so yes there may be a connection.
I will gladly pass on any info re Robert & Margaret I have a few records from SP although I am sure you will already have them.
Fiona
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Hi Ruadh
I have checked my previous/viewed from SP and checked old notes,I can offer you very little info and what I can offer you I am sure you will have already.
Margaret Rae nee Lorimer died 1867 Sanquhar - info from a note
Thomas Rae/Jean Brown had a daughter Jeanie 19/2/1823 Durisdeer - info from a note
David Rae age 47 died 1960 46 Bell st,Glasgow - Robert & Margarets son - record from SP,I am sure you will have it already.
re your entire brood vanishing,use Rootschat, put a post on Emigrants to US board for your missing Rae's.Hope you find them.
Fiona
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Hi everyone,
I'm starting to think I need to narrow down my William a little further and so will dig a little in the Cumbria and come back with something more definitive.
Many thanks,
Kirsten
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Thanks, Fiona.
Yes, I do indeed have the details you mentioned- and many more. I can account for one of the missing Rae brood- Thomas Lorimer Rae. He died at Genessee Falls, New
York, in 1861, aged 21. My suspicion is that he died in the American Civil War (there was a skirmish at Genessee), but have been unable to substantiate this theory. Och well.
Might catch up with you later on the Jardine/ Canonbie connection, when I've rummaged sufficiently on that line.
good hunting...
Ruadh
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Hi
put a post up on the Armed Forces board to see if Thomas Lorimer Rae did die in the American Cicil War,Rootschat are very good at finding people ;).
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Apologies for raising this once more, but having been prompted by Fiona, I'll give it another try - its my biggest and most frustrating brick wall.
William Kerr and Isabella Lockie (otherwise Lockhart) had several children, one of them Grizel Rae Kerr, born 1831 Durisdeer. However, I am more concerned with another daughter, Mary born 1828 Durisdeer. Between 1836 and 1839 the whole family moved to Sanquhar (daughter born there 1839).
Mary Kerr (my ggxgrandmother) married James Brown in Sanquhar in 1860 in Kirkconnel by Sanquhar. James Brown was a widower, with no children by his previous marriage to a much older woman, who had died the previous year aged 63(Mary Scott nee Goodwin).
However, the 1861 census lists two daughers:
James Brown Head Marr. 50 Labourer Morton, Dumfries
James Brown Son Unm 14 Kirkconnel, Dumfries
Jane Brown Dau Unm 6 Sanquahar, Dumfries (b.1855?)
Isabella Brown Dau Unm 3 New Cumnock, Ayrshire (b.1858?)
James Brown son appears to be the result of a liaison between James Snr and a stepdaughter (Rachel Scott) if a submitted entry on IGI is to be believed.
However, there are no birth records for Jane and Isabella, although Isabella certainly falls within the compulsory registration period. (Jane may have been born 1854).
Both girls believed their parents to be James Brown and Mary Kerr (as per marriage certificates) which means the couple must have been having an affair whilst James was still married, but there are no birth registrations for them under Kerr. (Spent a fortune on SP checking out every possibility).
One clue is that Isabella's death cert. gives her parents as "Mary Kerr afterwards married to James Brown" which seems to imply that James might not have been their father.
Jane in later life takes on the middle name Kerr and gives her maiden name as Kerr on the birth registration of her last child.
I have every piece of documentation on the family after the '61 census (even photographs) - I know how helpful people are, but it is only the births of the girls I need to know.
Possible connections are Aitkens (an Aitken grandchild on the '51 census - have checked out the family - can't establish a relationship, but no Janes or Isabella Aitkens, (or Scotts or Goodwins or Browns). Could be a Wilson, Howat or Cowan connection (too complicated to go into here - I have reams of stuff).
Anyway, what I am looking for is a Jane (b.1854/55 and an Isabella b. c. 1858 who have disappeared on the '61 census and re-appeared in the Brown household - what was their surname and who were their parents.
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Not sure I'm doing this right! Very new to the whole thing. Was doing a google search and stumbled across these messages and they grabbed my attention. Lots of chat about William Rae and Grizel Maxwell (Durisdeer), know this lot quite well as they are my gggg grandparents! Any info on William would be much appreciated as I'm stuck on their marriage in 1768. As a by the by, family lore says that he came from mid lothian or thereabouts. Also I'm from up north too! (Easter Ross)
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Hi catchristie
Welcome to Rootschat
Not sure I can help you with anymore info as my post above is almost all I have left since passing info onto my uncle.
I couldn't find William and Grizzels marriage,did they marry in Durisdeer.
Fiona
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No, they married in edinburgh (st cuthberts) 1768. Can be found on scotlands people. Would be interesting to find out more about your uncles side and wether we are connected! I have a very small family and my dad has no first cousins, he is keen to find any living relatives. The family moved to easter ross in the mid/late 1800's and have been on the same farm ever since.
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Thanks for the marriage details of William/Grizzel,found it on the IGI..who moved to Easter Ross in the mid late 1800's?
Fiona
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I am descended from William Rae's daughter Grizel. The family history records that William came from Dalkeith (Midlothian) and that the marriage in Durisdeer was delayed by six weeks due to a heavy snowstorm. I don't have any information on his birth or parents.
Grizel Maxwell's father was William Maxwell of Miltown, tenant of Durisdeer Inn and Farm.
William Maxwell was married to Janet Maclellan, descended from the Maclellan of Bombie.
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Hi Gateslack ... your profile name is very appropriate :)
welcome to Rootschat
thats good to know William Rae came from Dalkeith,catchristies grand aunt thought so,narrows it down a bit.Interesting about the marriage-snowstorm-delay.
I too do not have confirmed birth or parents for William but have checked the IGI and there is a William Rae m Jean/Jane Monteith with son William b1840 Dalkeith,possible maybe
I have not gone down Grizel (dau of William & Grizel)line,would appreciate any info
Fiona
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My photos of Durrisdeer
Gateslack Farm - home to William Rae
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/233341
Durisdeer Inn - home to William Maxwell
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/233355
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Hi Gateslack
thanks for the photos,I had Googled and found the Gateslack photo,very impressive,better than your average farm house I would have thought,hadnt seen the Durisdeer Inn though.I have researched the Rae family but not the Maxwells,althought catchristie gave me Grizzel Maxwells parents as William Maxwell and Margaret.
Fiona
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Great photo of Durisdeer Inn, haven't seen that before. My g. aunt had a big line from Grizel Maxwell's parents back. Ends up (with some skipped bits) to the Maxwell line but was never sure of it. How did you find out about the delay in the wedding (Gateslack)?
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Some inscriptions from the graveyard in Durisdeer Kirkyard
Wm Rae, Farmer, Gateslack born 1st January 1818 died Portland Place, Maxwelltown 15th August 1888.
Also Catherine Kinnear his wife, born 4th June 1821, died Halldykes, Rothwell Park, Dumfries 7th October 1898. Janet, daughter born 23rd November 1853 died June 1854, also William, son, died at Ashburn, Fort Willam 22nd September 1912 aged 65, interred in Kilmallie Churchyard, Fort William.
On the adjacent gravestones:
In memory of William Rae, son of Adam Rae and Mary Farish, Gateslack born 12th February died 11th March 1843 aged 29 days. And of the said Adam Rae died 19th March 1857 aged 43 years.
In memory of Robert Gilson died at Enoch Mill January 1st 1858 aged 98 years, and of Margaret Rae his spouse who died 30th August 1858 aged 85 years.
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many thanks for the MI's from Durisdeer Kirkyard,much appreciated.
Fiona
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Its a while since I have been on Roots Chat , but while reading the postings came across your entry and thought I could clarify a few points for u. Firstly I suspect Bridge of Scaur is not in the hills above Durrisdeer as mentioned on 14th.May, 06, but is in fact in the neighbouring parish of Glencairn, as this is where the Scaur burn is between the villages of Penpont and Moniaive, I have looked on the Ordnance Survey map Land Ranger sheet 78 1:50000 but could find no reference to it, although it may be where the main road? crosses it. This would tie in with the act that Robert Rae and Margaret Lorrimer came from Tynron which is in the parish of Glencairn. The only reason I know this is because I originally came from the area.Also u may b interested to know ther is also a Glencairn Kirkyard and church in the parish. Trust this is of some help, as the saying goes 'Better late than never'.
Petr
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Hi
I have also researched the Rae family ....
William Rae & Grizzel Maxwell,Durisdeer
their son William Rae a farmer, Gateslack farm,Durisdeer & Mary Brown,
their son William Rae born Durisdeer m Catherine Kinnear,William a farmer,Ryehill,Sanquhar.
I have other bits of info on this family if interested.
Fiona
Hi Fiona: I just came across this post of yours.....this is my family on the Brown's side....do you have any information on Mary Brown grandparents? His name was John Brown and he married a Janet??? Also John apparently was married to someone else before Janet......Mary's father was Adam Brown and Janet McCheyne? and Adam was married to a Jean Lorrimer before Janet.. I would like to find out if there was an Adam Brown born to Jean Lorimer and Adam Brown??????.....They lived at Gateslack before the Rae's. I imagine William Rae took over the farm when he married Mary.....My line is with Mary's brother, John Brown who married Marion Wilson. I'm trying to find information on the original John Brown, up top. He was born around 1654 and lived to be 103 years old....Where was he born? and who were his parents? Who did he marry and who were all his children? I know of Thomas, John, Mary and Adam, but that's it.. He lived most of his life at Gateslack, Durisdeer.......I would certainly appreciate any help that you could give me.....Thank you. Christine
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Hi Christine
Welcome to Rootschat
I wish I could be of more help but I purely researched the Rae side, only adding spouses names that married the Rae's. I have had a look at my Rae tree and SP searches incase I could offer any help but there is no new info, sorry.
Fiona
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Hello cousins Gateslack and catchristie!
I am descended from James Maxwell b 1779, son of John Maxwell born about 1747, son of William Maxwell of Milton and Janet McLellan of Auchlane. So my John is the brother of Grizel who married William Rae.
I am hoping that you can tell me how you know that Grizel is the daughter of William and Janet. I don't have any documentation of John's birth and hope you might have done some more successful research in that direction than I have.
My information came first from the memorial inscriptions at Durisdeer churchyard, which were very helpful, but do not go back to William and Janet (as far as I know).
Lyn in Australia
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Lyn
Family history has that William Maxwell of Miltown and his wife Janet settled in Durrisdeer, in Nithsdale, as tenant of the Durrisdeer Town farm and inn some three years after the forced sale of Miltown. Grizel was born in 1749 some six weeks before the move is the only one of the children that I have researched. I think the others may include Robert (1737), Elizabeth, Harriet and John(1747).
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Thank you Gateslack! That's more detail than I knew.
Where was Grizel born? If you have a baptism or birth record, I might be able to find one for John.
John died at Durisdeer in 1783, I believe Grizel died at Gateslack in 1839.
Lyn
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Proteantime,
in case you're interested in the Rea/Maxwells in Australia:
Christopher Rea married Elizabeth Maxwell in 1860 in Victoria.
There would be more information on the marriage record.
You can buy the image online for AU$21 at https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search
Do you know who Elizabeth Maxwell's parents were?
Lyn