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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Berwickshire => Topic started by: clazey on Wednesday 17 May 06 02:50 BST (UK)
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I am looking for more information on this line through the women. George Clezie married Jean Lockie 1813; GEorge Clazy married Rabina Bell 1819; James Clezy married ? but first child, Alicia b. 1793 Edrom; Thomas Clazie b. 1737, Edrom; George Clazy m. Margaret Brack, 1812; Buncles and Preston; John Clazy m. Margaret Gray, 1816; William Clazy m. Katharin Liongat, Hutton, 6/14/1703; Mary Clazy m. John Wilson, 1832; Margaret Clazy m. Robert Hay, 1841. James Clazy m. Jessy Brodie, 1825; Isabella Clazy m. David Drummond, Eccles;
It is the 1703 entry that has me intrigued...I cannot get past this date and would love to discover who William's father was and where they were.
Sharon:)
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Hi Sharon,
I have just found in my tree William Clazy married to my Great grandfatherx3 sister Jane Ker Ross.
Williams parents are George Clazy and Agnes Alexander.
Jane Ross died between 1831 and 1838 and William then Married Mary Mason.
These Clazy's came from Hutton Berwick, Scotland.
Dont know if these are anyting to do with yours.
Regards
Anne.
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William is definitely in the line. I have George b. 19 May 1765, Edrington. Died: 5 October 1833, age 69. Agnes Alexander b. 1769, Died 31 October1833. George's father was George Claise married to Agnes MIddlemiss or Middlemist. This is where things get confusing and I have yet to straighten it out...George had brothers: William, John and James.
GEorge and Agnes Alexander had the following children: George christened 26 January 1794; Margaret b. 1796 d. 1856; Adam b. 1800 d. 1837, Greenlees; Agnes b. 28 June 1804, Witnesses, Jn. Leslie & JA Knox; She died 14 August 1879; William b. 16 May 1807; and finally Helen b. 1810 d. 17 June 1839. She married John Leitch. He was of Lockton. Banns were posted 14 and 21 April 1833. She was of Eccles.
Son George married Robina Bell. Their children were Agnes b. 18 January 1822. She married 13 June 1856, John Thomson in Eccles.
George b. 30 December 1824. Baptized 20 February 1825. He married Janet Kirkwood Orr, High Paisley Church. (He became a minister).
Margaret b. 24 December 1827, baptised January 15, 1828. Witnesses: Mr. Oliver and Mr. Waddell.
Jane, b. 11 December1832, baptised January 1833. Witnesses: Adam Clazy and Davidson.
I have a letter from 1932 from the last surviving member of this line. It was sent to Dr. Peter Clezy in Australia as he was researching the family history. His line comes down from the son, John of George Claise. married Margaret Palen. He is in his 90s now and I am waiting for some papers he was going to send which should straighten out this tree.
My problem is John Clazie...Dr. Clezy is certain he comes down from William but to date, I cannot locate the man except he was a miller in Berwick-Upon-Tweed in 1815...he died when his three sons were young...
This is a lot of information...let me know if you want more...I have it all the way to George Robert Clazy who was in the Yukon Territory in 1901 sitting on a gold mine...
Sharon
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Hi Sharon,
I have just refound this post, I have read your reply and again those names fit. I dont know if any children where born to Jane or William as I havent found any yet. Also it looks as if none where born to William and Mary. But on Williams death cert. 13/2/1892 he has a niece called Margaret Doig. Margaret lived in Gladstone Terrace, Edinburgh. William died of old age and Paralysis, at the age of 85.
Really interesting.
Regards
Anne.
P.S. William died in Kelso and he also married Jane there, his usual address looks like 43 Roeburgh Street, Kelso.
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Hi,
Are these of any use?
Eccles Church Yard.
john Hoy 8.6.1808 55 yrs. dau. Isable 5.11.1808 23 yrs. son Thomas 21.8.1818 25 yrs. spouse Elizabeth Simson 11.10.1839 79 yrs. son Rober 19.11.1866 67 yrs. Wife of Robert Margaret Clazy 21.2.1885 89 yrs.
George Clazy 5.10.1833 69 yrs. wife Agnes Alexander 31.10.1852 83 yrs. son Adam d. at Greenlees 7.6.1837 37 yrs. dau. Helen )wife of John Leitch) 17.6.1839 29 yrs. ? dau. of Adam Clazy (more buried by large stones)
on back.
Agnes Clazy 14.8.1879 75 yrs.
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Hi Becky,
These look like Williams parents. I know he had sisters and one being called Helen, on the igi it also says he has a sister Margaret, so maybe transcribed wrong on there. These are really helpful.
Many Thanks
Regards
Anne.
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wonder if this is any help?
1841 census: sunwick cottages, hutton, berwickshire
the clazy family
william...age 50...ag labourer
isabel...age 43
jane...age 21...ag labourer
george...age 15...ag labourer
john...age 12...ag labourer
isabel...age 10...born england
elizabeth...age 7...born england
robert...age 6
charles...age 4
agnes...age 2
all born berwickshire unless stated otherwise
happy hunting
Joe
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This is wonderful stuff!! William's wife, Isabel was Purvis? Or am I in the wrong William tree. And, I finally know where Charles and Robert go...
George Clazy and Agnes Alexander...was the son of George Claisye according to another Clazey researcher. My line descends from George's brother...James. James married Helen Ker.
I am still having trouble sorting all these lines. I am sure they are all related but the point of all tying in together is eluding me!! I cannot find anymore on George Claisye...but there is a William about the same time married to Kathrine Liongat...perhaps William and George related or father and son?
Sharon
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I had found the marriage of William and Jane Ker Ross and wondered if there was a connection between her and Helen Ker who married James Clazey. I found his birth and his name was spelled Claizy. I live in the US - Jacksonville, Florida. As far as I have been able to find, with the exception of a Joseph Clazey who arrived in the US, and a George Clazy who arrived in Baltimore, Maryland in abt. 1816 or so...few seemed to leave. George Clazy married Margaret Brack in Buncle and Preston 1812 I think. I recently heard from a T.M. Sommers whose 4x great grandmother was Margaret Clazey, a daughter of the above. That line continues. My line...George Oswald Clazey, son of John Clazey and Isabelle Oswald...no boys to carry on the name.
Sharon
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hi sharon if you need any census lookups please let me know, i will do my best to help
Joe
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Joe,
Thank you very much for the very kind offer. My brick wal is: John Clazey married to Isabelle Oswald. Their first son, George Oswald Clazie was baptized at Holy Trinity Church, Berwick-Upon-Tweed. She in other records stated her birthplace as Ford. John was the son of James Clazey (Claizy) and Helen Ker born in 1798, Longformacus. I found that through Scotlandspeople and ordered the parish record. George was baptized in 1815 or 1816 depending which source I found. John's family is located in Eccles Churchyard. According to a genealogy Isabelle was working on before her death in 1874, Bishopwearmouth...John died when the boys were small and too young to take over running the mill. George's sister, Isabelle, died young in Berwick-Upon -Tweed...the other two boys, James and John were baptized in Etal. But...there is no record of John or a death there. The clues I have is John's sister born in Fogo...she married a John Wilson in 1832 and was rebuked for a clandestine marriage. Isabelle wrote about a "benefactor" who rescued the family from hard times...and her son, James, erected a memorial to Mary in Guildford, Surrey, where she died. The last son of John and Isabelle was born in 1824. I have not been able to find Isabelle in any 1841 Census. Have not been able to determine or find any record of when John died or in Isabelle's words, "left the family". He is not in the family plot of clazeys in Eccles.
Sorry to go on at such length...
sharon
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Hi Clazy,
This might muddy the Waters.
1851 Eymouth Village.
William Bell H M 54 Pauper Formerly Farmer Berwick,Eccles.
Isabella Bell W N 33 Pauper Dress Maker Berwick, Chirnside.
Isabella Clazie Step daughter 4 Berwick,Eyemouth.
1851 Chirnside Village.
Peter Drummond h M 28 Ag.Lab. E.Lothian,Athelstandford.
Mary Drummond W M 23 Berwick, Eyemouth.
Peter Drummomd S 5 Berwick, Chirnside.
Margaret Clazie Mother in Law Widow 55 Berwick, Chirnside.
John Clazie Nephew 10 Scholar Berwick, Eymouth.
1851 Ayton, Millbank House.
Janet Clazie Serv. U 20 House Servant. Berwick, Eyemouth.
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another wee bit to add
1841 census 18 meadow place, edinburgh. the clazy family
george...age 47...home miseconay
robina...age 55
george...age 15...draper's app
margaret...age 13
all born scotland
1841 census: knowes, kelso, roxburghshire, the clazy family
william...age 34...manager of gasworks
mary...age 28...born roxburgh
1841 census: byethorn, selkirk, the clezy family
john...age 50...teacher...born england
mary...age 35...born scotland
mary...age 8
john...age 6
james...age 4
elizabeth...age 4
isabella...age 1
all born selkirk unless stated otherwise
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Hi Clazy,
Just for the record, 1841 Berwickshire, no Clazies found in;
Duns,Coldstream,Coburnpath,Westruther,Swinton,Hume,Langton & Ladykirk.
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Hi All,
The William and Mary on the 1841 census is his second wife Mary Mason as he was previously Married to Jane Ker Ross.
Sharon: I dont know if Jane was any relation to Helen Ker, I do know her parents were Robert Ross and Isabella Mathewson, These are the family that I come from. I am trying to find out if Robert or Isabella have the name Ker anywhere in their familys as it is a strange name to give Jane as I cannot find anyone else with it as a second name.
Regards.
Anne.
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Thanks to everyone and yes, the water is muddied but it has filled in huge gaps I had. The John and Mary in Selkirk are the ones who emigrated to Australia and their descendents are there still.
The Drummond entry is the second connection I have found for Clazies with that name. I had never seen the Bell marriage except with Robina nor the Peter Drummond family.
Thank you again...
Sharon
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another wee bit
1861 census: huttonhall mill, hutton
george clazey...head...age 34...ploughman...born dunse
mary...wife...age 33
cecil...dau(!)...age 5
john...son...age 3
all born hutton unless otherwise stated
1861 census: east printonian, eccles
william clazie...head...age 71...ploughman...born edrom
isabella...wife...age 66...born ladykirk
charles...son...age 23...ploughman...born mordington
1861 census: lambsmill, mordington
thomas clezie...head...age 52...flour miller...born fogo
agnes...wife...age 54
james...son...age 30...flour miller
agnes tully...niece...age 12
all born mordington unless stated otherwise
1861 census: garrison, chirnside
Janet clazie...head...age 30...paper mill worker...born eyemouth
william...son...age 7
james...son...age 5
all born chirnside unless stated otherwise
1861 census: hutton village, hutton
Jessie clazie...head...age 55...born polwath
james...son...age 34...ploughman
helen...dau...age 31...field labourer
helen...grand-daughter...age 4
all born hutton unless otherwise stated
1861 census: chirnside
margaret clazie...widow...age 65...gro & ironger...born chirnside
john...son...age 28...house carpenter
john...age 20...stone mason
all born eyemouth unless stated otherwise
1861 census: kimmelaghame mains farm cottages, edrom
robert clazie...head...age 26...ploughman...born fouldin
christina...wife...age 32...born chirnside
william...son...age 2...born whitsome
agnes...dau...age 3 months...born edrom
happy hunting
Joe
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The "waters" are now fully roiled. These are folks I have only found in a brief birth or marriage record and now there is the entire family! You are an absolute marvel. Thank you very, very much...I teach high school in the US and I have three more days left until Christmas break...this will give me fun stuff to do!!! I have then almost a month off...
Sharon
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Hi Clazy,
Sorry, missed one.
1851 Coldstream, 23 High St, West End.
Agnes Clazy Serv. U 20 House Serv. Berwick,Gordon
to Alexander Rodger Minister of Free Church.
By the way, my wife tells me that the Clazy/Clazie families are in Berwick and Tweedmouth and have been for as long as she can remember, if you have been in touch with the Berwick office you will have found that out.
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I have found the name, Clazie and various spellings as far back as the 1600s. William, Francis and a Thomas. William runs through all the lines. The first were in Berwick-Upon Tweed...
Thank you again for all you have done.
Sharon :D
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Hi Clazy,
Was browsing through the IGI and found this.
William Bell m. Isabella Thomson Clazy 23/2/1851 Coldingham & 10/3/1851 Eyemouth, father John Clazy.
A Isabella Clazy bapt. 22/6/1817 Chirnside, parents John Clazy & Margaret Gray.
Missed one in the pre 1855 M.I.'s. at Chirnside.
Helen Carr wife of James Clezy 5.4.1826 62 yrs. son Joseph 18.5.1823 23 yrs. said James Clezie 8.6.1833 66 yrs. Margaret Clazey wife of Thomas Taucher 23.11.1856 65 yrs. James Clazey son of the above James Clazey d. at Hutton 8.12.1860 58 yrs.
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The Clazies and Bells seem to have married each other over several generations and I had only had the one. Perhaps you can answer a question for me. So many of them were married in two places including the last Clazey you found...why was that? The last one you found is my line. Thank you again.
Sharon
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Hi Clazey,
The only thing that I know about two weddings, is what I was told, that sometimes they got married at the bride's village and then the grooms or vice a versa, probably because of the families, I've had a few like that and it gets confusing.
Perhaps there is someone out there with a more reasonable solution.
Barry.
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Thank you. I wondered if that was the case which makes it confusing when one receives conflicting marriage dates from various sources. So... it is also a clue...and that is a great help!
Merry Christmas...
Sharon
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Hi Sharon,
Just found some interesting things today. It all ties in with your original post. Jane Ker Ross's grandmother was also Jane Kerr married to James Mathewson. Still trying to find out if Jane and Helen are related. I have also got William Clazy's will from SP and it is really informative, it mentions a lot of people including George Clazy, George and Richard Leitch, Alexina, Eliza and Jane Lockie. Now the funny one is that he mentions his first wife and leaves something to his wifes cousins (the Lockies). Now I have found the link with Jane Ross and her cousins. Jane had an aunt Elizabeth Mathewson who married Alexander Lockie in Edinburgh, all the children were born in Roxburgh.
Also on SP, not sure if you know there are two other wills one for George Clazy and one for his wife Jessie Clazy/smith.
Georges states that he is rev. minister of Oakshaw Free Church Paisley, d. 31/8/1896 at Ecclestoun, castlehead, Paisley.
Anne.
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I had seen the wills and now will go ahead and order them!! One name that jumped out...Leitch. Helen Clazy, daughter of George Clazy and Agnes Alexander married John Leitch. Helen was born in 1810 and died 17 June 1839. He was of Lockton and she was of Eccles. Banns were posted 14 and 21 April 1833.
George Clazy and Agnes Alexander: George was born 19 May 1765 and died 5 October 1833, age 69. Agnes was baptized 1769 and died 31 October 1833. Their first son, George Clazy was baptized 26 January 1794 in Foulden, Berwick. He married Robina Bell
George and Robina Bell Clazy had the following children: Christian, born 17 April 1821 and bapt. July 21, 1821. Witnesses: Margart Bell and Adam Clazy; Agnes, bapt. January 18, 1822 and married 13 June 1856 John Thomson of Eccles; George, born 30 December 1824 and baptized 20 February 1825. He married Janet Kirkwood Orr, High Church, Paisley. They had one son, George Robert Clazy who was bapt. 15 June 1860. Janet died and George married Jessie Smith; Margaret was born 24 December 1827 and was baptized 15 January 1828. Witnesses: Mr. Oliver and Mr. Waddel; Jane was born 11 December 1832 and baptized 1833 January. Witnesses: Adam Clazy and Davidson.
Another researcher sent me this inscription from the Eccles Churchyard erected by Alexander Douglas in memory of his father-in-law, James Lockie, shepherd in Fairyrig11/7/1829 age 60 born 1769. married Margaret Bell died March 17, 1857 Kelso, Roxb, age 84 born 1793. Also on the monument: Mary Lockie baptized 1804 and died August 31, 1822 aged 18 years. Mary Lockie Douglas March 8, 1826 aged 6 months.
Back to the George who married Agnes Alexander...George had at least two brothers, possibly 3. That is where I am stuck. George's father was George Clazy, mother Agnes Middlemiss or Middlemist. Brother James married Helen Kerr. William married Isabelle Purvis. The possible brother John remains elusive.
James and Helen Kerr's son George married Jean or Jane Lockie...and their youngest son, John born in Longformacus married Isabelle Oswald. These two are the line I travel down...John had a sister Mary who married a John Wilson. On the parish register I ordered and received for them, they were rebuked for a clandestine marriage in 1833. I found them...finally in Surrey where they appeared to not have any children. It was John's son, James who erected the monument on Mary's grave in Surrey. Have not located John's as he outlived Mary but I keep looking...
Given the names that keep popping up...it would not surprise me if Janet and Helen are related!!
Let me know if I have totally confused you...there are times when I get confused!
Sharon
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Hi Sharon,
This is all fascinating, Christian is mentioned in Williams will, along with the Lockie children, whose mother is Jane Kerr Ross' aunt, Elizabeth.
The will makes fascinating reading and cor, did he die wealthy he had over £1800 when he died, and going back to 1892 that was a hell f a lot of money.
The other names mentioned are Agnes Clazy/Halliday/Martin, Jemima Mason widow of Daniel Cook who is a relation to his 2nd wife Mary Mason, his neice Mararet Clazy/McLachlan/Doig widow of James Doig, (this lady signed his death cert.) So all the names tie in. Really glad that we looked at his will as I never knew that the cousins are the Lockies and where they tie in. By checking after readind it is how we found that Isabella Mathewsons mother was the Jane Kerr, have been looking for her parents for ages and have now been able to work out who Isabellas husbands parents were.
Now that is confusing.
Anne
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George and Jean or Jane Lockie:
One of their children was James Kerr Clazy. He was born 11 January 1816 and baptized 4 February 1816. He died 23 March 1880 in Cleveland, Ohio US. He is buried in Woodland Cemetery.. He married Ellen Lockhart 11 June 1840 in Troy, New York, US. Ellen died 27 October 1899. The spelling of the name settled to "Clazie". Before moving to Cleveland, the family had gone from Troy, New York to Toronto, Canada...
This information came from Rick Heiser who descends from James and Ellen. I have not heard from him in a very long time so do not know if he is still pursuing the genealogy.
James and Ellen's first born son: George Alexander Clazie...the others were Margaret, William James and Ellenor.
Do you have the other children of George and Jean or Jane Lockie? I have those if not...Isabella was one...
The tree is developing some flesh!!
Sharon
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I went tooling through the LDS site...
Ninian Ker married Janet Purves 03 February 1786 Chirnside.
Helen Carre born 28 May 1843, Edrom.
Father: Ninian Carre
Mother: Catherine Runciman
Margaret Claisy, 21 February 1789, Polwarth
Father: James Claisy.
Ninian seems to be a name that carries down...have you found any Ninians in the Kerr line?
Sharon
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Hi Sharon,
I havent got anyone with name yet, and I am sure I would have remembered a name like Ninian.
I forgot to ask you about the monument in Guildford. Is it a gravestone or an actual monument, I live about 30 mins from Guildford and if It is a monument I could ring their council to ask where it is. Also could try to locate a headstone and get a picture of it if I can find out what cemetry. Also can you let me know if it is Mary Wilson as all these names are confusing my already addled brain.
Anne. :)
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Here goes...I was sent a photograph of a headstone that was quite old. The sender had no idea where this stone was located as she found it in her great-grandmother's trunk. On the stone it said, "erected by James Oswald Clazey" or something to that effect. I have misplaced the photo and have begun tearing things apart looking for it!! I have more on that...Mary Clazie baptized 19 April 1809, Fogo. Father: James Clazie.
1881 UK Census:
Little House Farm Stringers Common, Worplesdon, surrey, England.
John Wilson, 75 b. Oxton, Scotland. Farmer
Mary Wilson, 68 b. Fego, Scotland
Arthur Williams 17, b. Weybridge, Surrey, Ag. Lab.
Elizabeth Hampton, 14 b. Woking, Surrey, Servant.
1841: Parish of Stoke, Manor Farm. Surrey
John Wilson, 30
Mary Wilson 30
It is a headstone...and as I recall it was good size. Mary died before John did so perhaps John's is nearby as well.
Sharon
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I have a Ninian Ker in my family tree who I think is the same one - mine had a daughter Geils (born 1792), who married William Telford (from Dumfries) in 1809.
'on September 10 1809 William Telford and Giles (Geils) Kerr, daughter of Ninnian Kerr deceased in Sunnyside. Having been irregularly married at Lambarton Toll on 27 August 1809 had their marriage this day confirmed by our Kirk Parson'
Sunnyside is I presume the farm of that name between Auchencrow and Reston, Coldingham.
I have not found any other trace yet of Ninian, but William and Geils lived in a farm called Stony Moor Riggs near Foulden, and their children are born in Foulden - they were living there in 1851, and at least one of their grandchildren was born there in 1850.
I would be very interested if anyone has any more information of Ninian Kerr.
I went tooling through the LDS site...
Ninian Ker married Janet Purves 03 February 1786 Chirnside.
Helen Carre born 28 May 1843, Edrom.
Father: Ninian Carre
Mother: Catherine Runciman
Margaret Claisy, 21 February 1789, Polwarth
Father: James Claisy.
Ninian seems to be a name that carries down...have you found any Ninians in the Kerr line?
Sharon
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One of the addresses I have for a clazie is Sunnyside...have not figured out where they fit in my line exactly but they are related somehow.
Sharon
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Hi Sharon,
I have been tracing all the farms my Telford / Kerr family lived on - Sunnyside is still there but now a riding school for the disabled. Would be interested to see if there is a Kerr /Clezy connection. The Kerrs are a new bit of the family for me, but 'Ninian Kerr' should be unusual enough to find I hope.
Best wishes,
Lesley
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I have been trying to find Helen Kerr's family for a very long time. I have a copy of the Banns and Marriages 1786 Chirnside for James Claizy and Helen Kerr and while looking at it just a moment ago who do I spot at the top of the page but Ninian Kerr!! Would you like a copy of it? I can scan it and email it to you. I suspect the two were related...perhaps brother and sister?
Sharon
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Forgot to add...name was spelled Ker...I also have her burial location as well along with her husband and most of their children.
It was their youngest son, John, who married Isabella Oswald. I am descended from their oldest son, George Oswald Clazey. Their last and youngest daughter, Mary, married a Wilson...rebuked for a clandestine marriage...they had a farm in Surry and that is where both died.
Sharon
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Hi
I've no connections to these family's but here is some MI from Chirneside you might be interested in
Number 181: Ninean Ker 14.7.1806 75yrs
on back
Mary Galdie?Calder? spouse to Ninian Ker tenant in Reston West Side 5.12.1775 45yrs, children Mary, James, Mary and Margaret son George
Number 182: John Ker late tennant in Green Mains 1.11.1787 68yrs
on side
Elizabeth Hogg spouse to John Ker portioner in Berwick 23.11.1808 43yrs. Ninian and 2 Johns and 3 daus. of their children who all died in inf.
Number 183:Helen Carr wife of James Clezy 5.4.1826 62yrs. son Joseph 18.5.1823 23yrs. said James Clezie 8.6.1833 66yrs. Margaret Clazey wife of Thomas Taucher 23.11.1856 65yrs. James Clazey son of above James Clazey d. Hutton 8.12.1860 58yrs.
These are from David Cargill's Berwickshire Monumental Inscriptions (pre 1855) and was compiled during the summers of 1867-1970
Fiona
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Thank you very much for this. Maybe this is the family of Helen Ker I have been searching for!! And, perhaps someone could answer a question on the Thomas Taucher mentioned as spouse of Margaret Clazey. How would one pronounce the last name?
Sharon
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Hi Sharon and Fiona,
This is wonderful - there is lots here to get looking at. The Ninian Ker in the Chirnside MI that Fiona quotes could be the right one for me - when his daughter Geils married William Telford in 1809 he was deceased. I am on holiday in Spain at the moment, so a bit away from my records, but will check all this when I get back. Thanks again (Sharon - I will message you off list with my email - I would be v grateful if you could send me scan of the Banns & Marriages Chirnside that you mention).
Best wishes,
Lesley
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I did a quick check through the IGI: Ninian Ker married Margaret Teleford 7 July 1818, Coldingham.
John Ker married Elizabeth Hogg 01 November 1785.
Ninian Carr b. 25 March 1806 married Catherine Runciman 17 February 1837. Father of Ninian was Thomas., Coldingham.
Scan is on the way.
Sharon
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Hi again
Just found a Ninian Kerr maried to Marine Caldra 8th June 1753 in Buncle & Preston. That would tie in with Grave no 181 that I gave earlier.
Fiona
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Thank you...now I am curious about Ninian Ker I have in Chirnside 1786 to Janet Purvis...possibly related?
Sharon
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Dear all,
Many thanks to you all for your help in my Kerr searches. I have now had a message from another contact who has done extensive research in the Kerr family in Berwick - so I am going to go through that.
The wonders of the internet!
I will keep an eye open for any Clezy, Clezie connections and post them here if I find them.
Thanks again,
Lesley
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Sharon,
In regard to the 1703 marriage of William Clazy to Katharin Liongat in Hutton, Berwickshire, I wonder whether Katharin's last name has been mis-read. I confess that I haven't seen a photograph of the actual marriage entry, but in checking on FamilySearch I found that this marriage is the sole occurrence of the name 'Liongat' or 'Liongate' anywhere on their website. I suspect that the name really was
'Lidgat(e)' or possibly "Ludgat(e)'. Although the IGI has only 7 Lidgats in Britain (& only one of those in Scotland), it has about 425 LidgatE events. More than half of those are in England (including 27 in Northumberland) but 194 are in Scotland (including 92 in Berwickshire, 14 in Roxburghshire, and almost all the others in the Lothians). The Berwickshire entries include large concentrations in Chirnside and Duns. The name 'Ludgate' occurs quite frequently in England, and there are also about 110 Scottish Ludgate events listed, including 32 in Berwickshire. So . . . my guess is "Katharin Lidgat(e)".
Some time ago you asked about the book "Pae Dirt". A few years ago, when living in the New York metropolitan area, I consulted this little book in the NY Public Library, and I have photocopies of a few pages which interested me. Much of the work deals with Paes, Peays etc. in North America. However, pages 1-5 discuss the family background in Scotland, and traditions which suggest a French Huguenot link (as with the Clezys and Paulins). Pages 7-23 consist of summarized details of Pae entries in Coldingham, Chirnside and other Berwickshire parish registers, occasionally with brief notes by author Phyllis Richards Kyle. For the baptism of Margaret Pae, 10 Feb. 1771, she has the note "Is this the Margaret who married James Steele in 1793?" From the details Kyle compiled a likely descent can be seen from Archibald Pae to his son Alexander (m. Janet Kay 1706), to his son Archibald (m. secondly to Mary Anderson in 1739), to their son Alexander (m. Elspeth Allanshaw 1766), to Margaret Pae who married James Steele.
I am descended from Isabella Steele Clezy, one of the younger daughters of John Clezy and wife Mary Steele, who emigrated to South Australia in 1849 on the "Anna".
Best wishes, Bob
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Thank you! I have not done much lately with genealogy and was pulling some things out to get back at it! The spelling makes perfect sense and I knew I had a Lidgate somewhere on one of the documents I had - found it June 16, 1756 - on same page as James Claizy and Helen Ker - Proclamation of Banns and Marriages - Alexander Lidgate in Ninewells(?) to Mary Home?. I had been in correspondence with Dr. Peter Clezy in Australia and with the very last letter I received from him he said that somewhere he had information on John Clazey who had married an Oswald. To this day I have been unable to find either a marriage or death record for John Clazey. I do have the death register for his wife Isabella Oswald Clazey in 1875. In 1841 Census she is living with one son and the other son is an apprentice elsewhere.
I have always suspected that James Claizy and William Clazy are related but been unable to prove the connection. A couple of us think James was a son of George and Agnes Middlemist or Middlemiss. They had a son William as well. That is as far back as I have been unable to get.
I have not heard from DR. Clezy in a very long time...he did send a letter from the 1930s from the last of one Clazy line - George the minister - again speculation - George, James and William possible brothers.
I will begin hunting around ...would love to one day find John and Isabella information and prove connections between the above! Would love to discover when or where the name came from...find Clazeys abt. 1645 in Berwick Upon Tweed but nothing before that.
Sharon
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I heard a little while ago that Peter Clezy has not been at all well, and probably he isn't able to deal with genealogical matters at present. My sister and I enjoyed visiting him and his wife in Sydney in 2002. Peter remembered meeting our family when I was a small boy, when we were up in Tasmania on furlough from the New Hebrides (the modern-day Vanuatu). I have a copy of his 539-page work "The Old Partnership" which was published later in 2002. Have you seen it? The book is mainly about the Clezy family in Australia, as well as the Steeles, with whom the Clezys intermarried on several occasions. However it does also discuss Clezy ancestry in Scotland.
Best wishes, Bob
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I have not seen the book...I did go to the National Archives and went through the digitalized Berwick-Upon-Tweed baptisms...October 10, 1666 Elenor, d. of William Glasie; January 9, 1672, Will son of Will Clasey; November 27, 1673, Thomas son of William Clasie. Found nothing prior to 1666 so...back to fishing around to see if I can find them prior to that!!
My mother had the family bible...and after my grandfather died for some bizarre reason, she threw it out!!! How she regrets that...I did read through the entries a couple of times before it disappeared and there were a set of twins there...earliest date which was very faded was late 1700s... of course how it ended up here in the states is another question which I am sure will never be answered!! James and Helen Kerr did have a set a twins...
Sharon
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Hi Sharon
Seeing the Clazie name in the list reminded me that there was one on the same page of a death entry I got a couple of days ago. If you don't already have it, I can send you the one for Isabella Bell, daughter of John Clazie and Margaret Gray.
April
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Thank you!! I have been trying to connect my line to the one of Margaret and John. And in yet another line - Bells also show up...From what I have managed to find...James Claizy who married Helen Ker(r) (1786) probably had at least two brothers. His father may have been George Clazey and mother Agnes Middlemist or Middlemiss. (1754). Have not been able to locate the definitive proof but keep looking!
Sharon
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Saw your various posts on the above when trawling so joined RootsChat to stick in my pennyworth.
My wife, Margaret, is a direct line 2ggrandaughter of James Leitch and Helen Clazy and I was interested to read all of the various posts you have of the Clazys and their varied spellings.
I don't know how far you have got since this post I am replying to but I have a problem with the family of James/Helen Ker and James/Helen Carr (MI Chirnside). Are they one in the same, or two separate lines? I have about seventy-five Clazy's in my FT at present, all post George/Agnes Middlemist, and think I've tied them all together but there are still some 'orphans'.
Would be pleased if you can help.
Thanks
Andrew
William is definitely in the line. I have George b. 19 May 1765, Edrington. Died: 5 October 1833, age 69. Agnes Alexander b. 1769, Died 31 October1833. George's father was George Claise married to Agnes MIddlemiss or Middlemist. This is where things get confusing and I have yet to straighten it out...George had brothers: William, John and James.
GEorge and Agnes Alexander had the following children: George christened 26 January 1794; Margaret b. 1796 d. 1856; Adam b. 1800 d. 1837, Greenlees; Agnes b. 28 June 1804, Witnesses, Jn. Leslie & JA Knox; She died 14 August 1879; William b. 16 May 1807; and finally Helen b. 1810 d. 17 June 1839. She married John Leitch. He was of Lockton. Banns were posted 14 and 21 April 1833. She was of Eccles.
Sharon
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Wow...just when I give up trying to tie everyone together from George and Agness Middlemist...
The two you mention are one and the same. I have a copy I can scan to you...Chirnside Banns and Marriages 1786 - 20th October - James Claizy and Helen Ker. On the same page is Ninian Ker to Janet Purves and wondered if these two were related...
If I have this line right...Helen was a sister of the John I am descended from. I have the baptism of John in Longformacus with parents James Clazey and Helen Ker. Still haven't found either the marriage or death of John Clazey...he married Isabelle Oswald and oldest son George was baptized Holy Trinity, 1815, Berwick Upon Tweed.
Was Helen part of a set of twins?
Sharon
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Thanks Sharon
I have
1. George & Agnes Middlemist - m.Coldstream 02/06/1751: issue
1.1 William b.Coldstream 16/08/1753
1.2 John b.Coldstream 27/04/1755
1.3 James b.Coldstream 14/12/1760
1.4 George b.Mordington 19/05/1765
1.3 James & Helen Ker - mChirnside 20/10/1786: possible issue
1.3.1 George b.Hutton 1787
1.3.2 Margaret b.Polworth 1789
1.3.3 Alicia and Helen b.Edrom 1793 - twins
1.3.4 John b.Longformacus 1798
1.3.5 James b.Fogo 1802
1.3.6 Joseph b.Fogo 1803
1.3.7 Thomas b.????? 1809 (age from death cert, Chirnside - parents James & Helen Carr)
1.3.8 Mary b.1809 Fogo
MI Chirnside gives Helen Carr's death as 1826 age 62 which fits with Helen Ker.
1.3 James Clezie's death as1833 age 66, but if James was son of George and & Agnes the date is 7 years out.
1.3.6 Joseph's death as 1823 age 23 which is 3 years out.
1.3.2 Margaret's death as 1856 age 65 which fits exactly.
1.3.5 James' death as 1860 age 58 which fits exactly.
My concerns are that Helen would have been 45 when Thomas and Mary were born, and James was seven years younger than the son of George and Agnes Middlemist would have been. Thomas' death record does give his parents as James and Helen Carr, however.
Your thoughts?
Here's another one, William to Katharin Liongat m.1703 Hutton. Liongat reads like Scougal to me! Look at 's' in Holy Island four lines above, and the 'n' is definitely a 'u'. The transcriber must have been having a bad day! Unfortunately I can't find any Scougals born in Berwickshire around then although there are Scugals born in Chirnside about that time and there are lots later, and still Scougals in the area today. She could of course have come from Northumberland.
Andrew
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I had thought the four boys were siblings...from George and Agnes. The Thomas mentioned in 1809 - that is a new one!! Although have wondered about this Thomas Clazey I have found in Sunniside...
I have more information on Mary b. Fogo...she was rebuked in 1832 for an irregular marriage...I have found her and her husband, John Wilson in Surrey. Both are buried there. James Clazey (middle son of John and Isabelle Oswald) erected a marker to her there in Surrey...from a beloved nephew...Now...Isabelle Oswald Clazey left a "history" which is in possession of Sue Prust in Devon (from John, youngest son) and she wrote that John Clazey, her husband, left the family when the boys were young and they could not run the mill. We are pretty sure that he died but where or when? She also wrote that things were pretty tough financially for a while but then she received help...Sue and I suspect that Mary and her husband John were the help. Both seemed to have always had their own farm...and no children.
My mother, bless her, for some bizarre reason tossed the family bible years ago...I managed to get a look at it...the handwriting was quite faded and difficult to read BUT what struck me was the entry of twins...and I was shocked to see that the dates went to the 1700s!! I asked my mother about it...she had never seen it until her father died! She has spent years wondering what ever possessed her to do that!! And, how it ended up in Rochester, NY...had to have come over with Oswald who arrived in 1910 from England. However, his grandfather, George Oswald Clazey arrived in NY in 1841...the only son of George and Margaret Hall went back to England and in the 1871 Census, he is living with his grandmother and is a student at Durham College. He married Charlotte Gray in 1872.
On Liongate...someone suggested the last name might be Liddlegate or something close...and that name was also found in Berwickshire...
The other puzzler...George and Agnes...the William, Frances and Thomas Clazey I found in the 1600s in Berwick Upon Tweed...do you have any idea who George's father was?
I have a ton of stuff...
Sharon
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Hi to Patonia - we seem to be related - and hi to all of you. I found your forum by searching for the damned elusive Pae family - an ancestor, Margaret Steele, is a maternal descendant of the Margaret Pae who married a schoolmaster called James Steele. I realised that one of your Clezys - John Clezy - is recorded as having been one of the cautioners at the marriage of Margaret Steele to John Gordon in Selkirk on 12 June 1838.
Patonia - was your Mary Steele born in Coldingham on 5 January 1802 & baptized there on 31 January of that year? If so, she is the elder sister of my ancestor Margaret Steele, who died in Adelaide in 1857. There seems to have been a wholesale Steele migration to South Australia in the middle of the nineteenth century.
Regards
Anne
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Regarding William Clazey...did he marry a Purves? If so...then I think that line continues today with a Rick Heiser and his brother...haven't heard from him in a long time but...he (Rick) was a barrister in BC Canada...
sharon
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I have a ton of stuff too Sharon. It's making sense of it that's the problem!
Have you seen the marriage of James in Chirnside, 22 OCT 1786, no name given for spouse. Where does he fit in?
Re your Oswald branch, have you seen the 1881 Census returns:
8 Azalea Tce. Bishopwearmouth Durham
James O. Clazey head b.1820 Etal Northumberland (Ship Owner)
Ellen Clazey wife b.1830 Glanton Northumberland
Schoolhouse Weston by Welland Northampton
James O Clazey head b.1851 Putnam Co, Carmel, NYS (Schoolmaster)
Charlotte Clazey wife b.1854 Bishopwearmouth Durham
George O Clazey son b.1875 Mitford Northumberland
Ellen C Clazey daughter b.1876
Oswald Clazey son b.1878
Maggie Clazey daughter b. 1880
Margaret Gray mother-in-law
Boldon Durham
John O Clazey head b. 1826 Ford Northumberland (Coal Fitter)
John O Clazey son b. 1874 Sunderland Durham
This is from scribbled notes although I have a spread sheet with all the details somewhere........
Is this your line?
Re George's father, it's William......I'm working on it!
Andrew
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Chirnside James Clazey spouse is Helen Ker. Claizy is the spelling there. I have a copy I received from records located at Scotlandspeople.
My line is John Clazey married to Isabella or Isabelle or Isbel Oswald. Their surviving children were: George Oswald Clazey, 1815 Trinity Church, Berwick upon tweed; James Oswald Clazey 1819, Etal; John Oswald Clazey, 1824 Etal. There was a daughter, Isabelle who died Walkergate, in 1819...this was same address given for George so I am pretty sure this one also belonged to John and Isabelle.
George Oswald Clazey sailed from Newcastle in 1841. He was a tailor. The earliest I can find him NY State records is 1850. He and his wife, Margaret Hall had daughter Elizabeth Loundsberry Clazey, Isabelle Oswald Clazey, Louisa Oswald Clazey and James Oswald Clazey. My line then descends from James. There is a line in the states here that descends from Elizabeth (Root); haven't found any yet for Isabelle (Lane); Louisia died in Baltimore, MD - unmarried.
Of the original three boys...George, James and John...James and his wife had no children and John had two. These two latter along with Isabelle are buried in Bishopwearmouth Cemetery. George and Margaret and their daughter Isabelle are buried in Raymond Hill Cemetery, Carmel, NY.
Of George and Agnes Middlemist...father is William? Related to Kathrine (?) If so, George had a sister Kathrine...
Sharon
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Hello flashMinor! I think that we are probably 4th cousins, perhaps one or two generations removed. Yes, Mary Steele b. 5 Jan. 1802 in Coldingham was a direct ancestress of mine. She, with her husband John Clezy (who had earlier been Rector of Selkirk Academy) and their children, emigrated to South Australia in 1849. As you remarked, many of Mary's Steele siblings also came to South Australia around the mid-1800s. These included Elizabeth (Mrs. John Disher) who preceded the Clezys; Isabella, who accompanied the Clezys; Robert Moore Steele; and your ancestress Margaret (Mrs. John Gordon).
One of the daughters of John & Mary Clezy was Isabella Steele Clezy. She married Rev. William Brown (a Methodist clergyman) and they had a daughter who was my paternal grandmother.
Sharon, you mentioned that a family bible had ended up in Rochester, NY. We are living in Western New York at present, although we spend part of our time in Australia.
Bob
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In one of the letters I received from Dr. Clezy several years ago, he said that John Clezy had run into some difficulty with the authorities. I am sure it was over ecumenical matters...anyways...John changed the spelling of the last name back to an older version...according to Dr. Clezy.
I have not seen the book. Would love to know where to find a copy!
Sharon
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ScotlandsPeople index of marriages for Cl*z* gives four marriage entries for James, three to Helen Ker, and one 'name not given':
1. 13/07/1786 CLAEZY JAMES - HELEN KER/FR535 M Hutton (Berwick)
3. 20/10/1786 CLAIZY JAMES - HELEN KER/FR387 494 M Chirnside
4. 20/10/1786 CLAIZY JAMES - HELEN KER/FR387 494 M Chirnside
12. 22/10/1786 CLAZY JAMES - NAME NOT GIVEN//FR494 M Chirnside
I've looked at all of them now and whilst the second two are obviously duplicates The difference in dates between 1. & 2. of over 14 weeks seems a lot for the reading of Banns.......... The last entry is only for paying a fee of one shilling. Presumably he didn't take enough money on the day of the wedding! I had a marriage recorded for my 3ggrandfather on the same basis when he must have paid the dues for one of his many grandchildren....when he was 84.
Re John to Isabella Oswald, who was John's father? I assumed from previous posts that it was James, son of George and Agnes Middlelist.............
Andrew
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John was the son of James and Helen Ker. He was baptized in Longformacus and I have a copy of that document. In addition to that, John Oswald Clazey, youngest son of John and Isabelle has on his marriage certificate (the original one in possession of Sue Prust), father, John Clazey born in Longformacus.
Now...in regards to one of John's brothers, James who married a Greenlaw in Caithness...there were two boys and two girls of that marriage I have found to date. The boys, William and John left England and came to the US abt. 1850. One was only 13 at the time. They settled in Ohio. Their name was Clazey until the children came along and the spelling changed to Clasey. I was contacted years ago by a researcher doing the work on behalf of John's wife and her line...both men are buried in Ohio. William died...John died...left all children orphans. I do not know if there was an epidemic of some kind. I do have copies of their naturalization papers from the US government. Took me years to figure out how these two connected but finally got them to James. That was one of those eureka moments...they would have been George's cousins...I often wonder if the boys came because George was already here...
Sharon
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I thought that that was the line but was concerned that John was only 17 when George was born.....
Now, George married to Agnes Middlemist, his father....
At that time the family followed closely the convention of first male child named after father's father, second after mother's father, third after father, fourth after father's grandfather, etc.
We have William, first son of George, had male children: 1. George 1786, John 1787, William 1790. which follows the convention.
John, second son of George, I have not yet tracked down issue.
James, third son of George, had male children: 1. George 1787, John 1798, James 1802. which follows the convention.
George fourth son of George, had male children: George 1793, Adam 1800, William 1807. which follows the convention.
I think it is very clear therefore that George's father was William.
The contender's:-
I can find only one - William b. 06/08/1704, Hutton, son of William and Katharin Scougal/Liongat/Lidgat.
The theory is therefore:
Source 1. William Clazy b.c.1680 m. Katharin ? Hutton 14/06/1703
Issue 1.1 William b.06/08/1704 Hutton
1.2 Elizabeth b.10/03/1706 Hutton
1.3 Joseph b.31/05/1713 Swinton
1.1 William b. 06/08/1704 Hutton m ?
Issue 1.1.1 William b.?
1.1.2 George b.c 1730 m. Agnes Middlemist 02/06/1751
1.1.3 Thomas b 15/08/1737 Edrom
1.1.4. Jean b.23/07/1740 Ladykirk
1.1.5 Kathrine b.30/01/1745
That's the theory anyway, now I just have to prove it!
Do you have anything that will help to prove or disprove it?
Andrew
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I will begin pulling out all the old, old papers I have as well as the paper family tree I started about 15 years ago. It was a way to try and keep these constantly changing lines visible!!! I literally had this huge sheet on my wall so I could move folks around and just look at it all and think! This was long before all the records which are now available on the computer.
I always knew that Thomas and Joseph were connected somehow. But couldn't tie them in.
Let me take a look...a bit distracted here as tonight is the election...and all of us here on this street are running in and out...moved a tv outside...everytime a state falls to Obama we are yelling!!! Historic...
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Some Odds and Ends:
Elizabeth Clazy, b. 10 March 1706, Hutton, Berwick, father William Clazy.
Kathrine Clazy, b. 30 January 1745, Hondean, father Wm. Clazy.
Mary Clasey m. Andrew Nickson, 02 December 1701, Berwick.
John Thompson and Jane Clasey, 11 Sept. 1718, Berwick.
1841 Census, Dumfries, Irish Street - West side: Jesse Cleese b. Dumfriesshire.
1841 Mordington, Berwickshire: Ann Chezie, b. abt. 1806 and Thomas Chezie, abt. 1811 and James Chezie, b. abt. 1831.
Katharin Clasie m. John Anderson 05 December 1745.
Agnes Clezie, christened 01 April 1803, Edrom - father William Clezie and mother Isabel Thomson.
George Clezie m. Jean Lockie 20 June 1813, Edrom. Daughter, Agnes christened 17 July 1814, Edrom.
1851 Scotland Census
Jessie Clazie, 46 , b. abt. 1805, wife husband James. James is 50. James Clazie, son is 24. George and Margaret Hewitt, both 23 are also household members. Hutton Village, Berwickshire.
John Clasey, transported 1685 to Barbados for waging war against King James. Is this perhaps the John you cannot find?
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Hmmm………. more ‘orphans’…….. just when I thought I had the last lot sorted!
Actually most of them fit the tree:-
Elizabeth Clazy, b. 10 March 1706, Hutton, Berwick, father William Clazy.
Elizabeth is 1.2 of my last post.
Kathrine Clazy, b. 30 January 1745, Hondean, father Wm. Clazy.
Kathrine is 1.1.5 of my last post, Horndean is in the Parish of Ladykirk.
Mary Clasey m. Andrew Nickson, 02 December 1701, Berwick.
Mary I have not yet traced but may be a sister of William, 1. of my last post.
John Thompson and Jane Clasey, 11 Sept. 1718, Berwick.
Jane I have not yet traced but could be a child of William 1. of my last post.
1841 Mordington, Berwickshire: Ann Chezie, b. abt. 1806 and Thomas Chezie, abt. 1811 and James Chezie, b. abt. 1831.
Thomas b. 1808 Mordington was the son of James and Helen Ker/Carr. Ann’s second name is not recorded but they had a son James b. 1831 Mordington.
Katharin Clasie m. John Anderson 05 December 1745.
Kathrine I have not yet traced but is likely to be daughter of William and Katharin Scougal/Liongat/Lidgat [I have written to GRO and asked them to confirm the name]
Agnes Clezie, christened 01 April 1803, Edrom - father William Clezie and mother Isabel Thomson.
Agnes was the youngest of seven children to Isabel and William who was the eldest son of George and Agnes Middlemist.
George Clezie m. Jean Lockie 20 June 1813, Edrom. Daughter, Agnes christened 17 July 1814, Edrom.
George is the eldest son of James and Helen Ker. Agnes is the oldest of eight children, six of whom were born in Edinburgh.
1851 Scotland Census
Jessie Clazie, 46 , b. abt. 1805, wife husband James. James is 50. James Clazie, son is 24. George and Margaret Hewitt, both 23 are also household members. Hutton Village, Berwickshire.
James is the fourth son of William and Isabel Thompson. He married Jessie/Janet Brodie at Hutton on 27/05/1825. James Jnr. b. 13/07/1826 is the only son of three children although I suspect that there will be an elder son William lurking somewhere. James married Janet Inglis at Duns 07/06/1867.
John Clasey, transported 1685 to Barbados for waging war against King James. Is this perhaps the John you cannot find?
No, but this is very, very interesting and not something I have come across. Do you have any more details?
It was the issue of John, son of George and Agnes Middlemist married to Margaret Palen/Paline Hutton 15/09/1777 I was looking for. I think that John m. Mary Steele 27/12/1825 Selkirk/Edinburgh is one of them but can’t find the link. I think this is the line that emigrated to Australia.
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I found the Clasey to Barbados many, many years ago in an old book of passenger lists in the Cocoa Florida Library. And, somewhere in my files, I know I wrote down the name of the ship. I did more looking at the time on that list but that was before the internet and was unable to confirm that he did in fact arrive alive! Never found another reference to him.
With Thomas in the James and Helen Ker column many of the "orphans" now fall into place! I was fortunate enough to have spoken to William Clazey in Northumberland before he died a couple of years or more ago and he had pointed the direction to Scotland and mentioned Kathrine. William's son, Tony, is still there but haven't heard from him in a very long time.
Have also looked around for John married to Margaret Palen...his brother, I suspect, married to Margaret Brack (George) is the line that ended up in Baltimore, Maryland. George was a founding member of the Robert Burns Society there...he was injured in a terrible explosion in the Baltimore harbor. His son-in-law, a Ramsay, died. Both were working on the boiler.
Will be anxious to find out Kathrine's true last name!! One of George's descendents (Baltimore) and the only one I have found thought the line originated in France...Huguenots...
Will go through more files today...
Sharon
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Isn't it a small world. I met Tony about twenty years ago through business (before I started ancestor hunting) and had forgotten all about him until a mutual friend mentioned him a couple of weeks ago. I asked him if he would ask Tony to get in touch when next he saw him, which shouldn't be too long. He lives in Swarland, Northumberland, just a few miles south of Alnwick, and I think he's retired now. Will let you know when I hear from him. Which William was his father?
I think that the George married to Margaret Brack was the eldest son of William and Isabel Thomson but haven't been able to find anything about them in the UK so mabe they are the ones in Baltimore.
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George and Margaret Brack Clazey arrived in Baltimore with at least 3 children. Dates seem to vary from one source to another. I was in touch with a T. Sommers who is descended from that line but the last email I sent him bounced and have not heard from him. I believe that my line of George Oswald Clazey and the Baltimore Clazeys kept track of each other...George's youngest daughter, Louisia, eventually lived in Baltimore and just a few houses down from the cousins. She never married. Tom was attempting to locate the date and place she died...the last record of her I found was the 1930 census...she was a spinster, an operator and 53.
When you run into Tony...you might ask him to recount his inquiry experience with one Graeme Clazey...I know he is related but cagey as all get out! I believe he is descended from my great grandfather's oldest brother, George...I have spoken with him and he is adament that there is NO relation...however...my grandfather used to comment once in a while...that all the Clazey money remained on the other side and that was not what was supposed to happen. So...who knows...all I was interested in was finding my great-grandfather's brother who married Clara Elizabeth Wallace! I found the marriages and births on free bmd for Oswald's sisters Ellen and Charlotte Isabelle and Maggie...his mother remarried Alfred Swaine after her husband had been missing for some years...still haven't found where he went missing to!! Did get a lead on a letter Charlotte wrote to the Australian police department in Victoria...Haven't found any Broadbelt descendents today (Ellen) and I THINK Maggie died not long after her marriage to Frederick Curran. I would love to find someone who had pictures...
Sharon
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That sounds like the Tony I know......
This is the reply I got from GRO
Yes I would agree that the surname is Scougal and not Liongat - I can
see why they have said Liongat but it is hard to do indexing when you do
not know the surname involved - however based on the fact that there are
people with the surname Scougal (and various spellings) in Scotland and
no Liongat(e)s I would say you are correct. Christine
There is a family of Scougal in the 1841 Census in Mordington.... The search goes on.
Andrew
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Re: I think that John m. Mary Steele 27/12/1825 Selkirk/Edinburgh is one of them but can’t find the link. I think this is the line that emigrated to Australia.
Hello anndra. I'm not sure if this information will assist you with sorting out the John Clazey/ Clezy & Scougall links but here it is for what it's worth.
I've been watching this page because I am trying to trace the parents of my ancestor John Gordon, who married Margaret Steele in Selkirk in 1838. John Gordon was a schoolmaster in Moffat at that time. I had hoped that the cautioners at the wedding of John Gordon and Margaret Steele might assist me by having been Gordon family members, which they were not, but they might be relevant to you.
The cautioners are recorded as John Clozy/Clazy/Clezy and James Scougall.
This John Cl*zy married Mary Steele, Patonia's ancestress and the elder sister of my ancestress Margaret Steele (at whose wedding Cl*zy & Scougall served as cautioners), and they did emigrate to SA. Margaret Steele died there in 1857.
That at least places a John Cl*zy and a Scougall in Selkirk for at least a visit in 1838. I wondered if your James Scougall might also be a schoolmaster? I ask because Patonia notes that John Cl*zy was the rector of the Selkirk Academy, while my John Gordon was the rector of the Grammar School in Moffat. They seemed to socialise, marry and emigrate in packs.
Good luck,
Anne
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Thanks for that Anne
Unfortunately the Scougal I have established is Katharin b.c. 1680.....a few generations in between I'm afraid.
There are only 18 Sc*gal* births recorded on GRO in Berwickshire between 1553 and 1700 (all 1660 to 1700) and none unfortunately are Katharin so finding siblings and descendants is going to prove difficult. The spelling variations are Scougal(l), Scugal(l/d), Scowgal(l). I'll post anything I find that may be of help to you.
Andrew
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Very kind of you to offer, Andrew. I guess that whatever my ancestor taught probably wasn't mathematics.
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Schoolmaster connections are interesting...both John Oswald Clazey and James before they became involved with Coal and Land Sale operations w/ Lord Londonderry were both schoolmasters. Jamaes was at Shiny Row in the 1851 Census at the school opened by Lord Londonderry. John was at the National School. Their nephew, James Oswald Clazey, born in the US, was at Durham College in 1871 Census and living with his grandmother, Isabelle and aunt and uncle, James and Ellen. He became a school master as did at least two of his daughters...skip a couple of generations...and I am a school teacher. My nephew is a school teacher...my youngest daughter is going to be a school teacher...
Found another "stray"...Janet Clazy married to John Mickle 12/25/1814, Cranshaws. Birth, about 1794, Caithness. Death about 1871, Linlinthgow, West Lothian
Thomas Clasie, christening 27 November 1673, Berwick Upon Tweed. Father: William Clasie
Thomas Clasey, christening 19 April 1691, Berwick Upon Tweed. Father: William Clasey.
Mary Clasey married Andrew Nickson 2 December 1701, Berwick Upon Tweed.
Sharon
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The school connections are interesting indeed, clazey. I've also found school teachers among the Steele family into which John Gordon married. It is his line I am trying to trace, and in its more recent form of my grandfather's generation included three lecturers or teachers of adults that I know of. My father has been a visiting lecturer, my deceased aunt was a teacher, my first cousin (through the same line) is training to be a school teacher, and I worked as a tutor while I was studying.
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Amazing how we "follow" professions oftentimes before we even know what our ancestors did for a living! There is a Clazey line in Maryland, US and years ago when I contacted one...the first thing he asked me was if I live near the water!! Amazingly, I always have. Only tried to live once in a landlocked state and couldn't stand it! He pronounced me a true Clazey...and to date...have not found a one here in the US who doesn't live near either a Great Lake or the ocean.
Sharon
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Hi anndra. I have been looking for a family named Shirilaw in Berwickshire and have tried some wild card searching which did not yield Shirilaw results but did produce some Skugalls and Skugells in Berwickshire between about 1640 and 1700. I wondered if they might assist your Scougall searching.
From Duns, Berwickshire, there are listings for:
Margrat Skugell b. or c. 13/03/1640 to Robert Skugell and Margrat Purves;
George Skugell b. or c. 28/09/1654 to George Skugell and Jeane Gambell;
Johne Skugell 4/04/1658 George Skugell and Ellspeth Thomsone; and
William Skugall b. or c. 17/06/1678 to George Skugall and Agnes Heastie.
My search was confined to those years only - no doubt there are more.
All the best,
Anne
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John Clasey, transported 1685 to Barbados for waging war against King James. Is this perhaps the John you cannot find?
No, but this is very, very interesting and not something I have come across. Do you have any more details?
I
From the date I would presume he took part in Monmouth's rebellion. Perhaps he escaped with Captain Blood and became a pirate. Or not.
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I think that the George married to Margaret Brack was the eldest son of William and Isabel Thomson but haven't been able to find anything about them in the UK so mabe they are the ones in Baltimore.
George and Margaret definitely went to Baltimore. Their descendants, at least those I have so far found, are here:
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=tms2&id=I1125
Why do you think George is the son of William and Isabel Thomson, as opposed to being him being one of the other Georges born at about that time? George is my gggg-grandfather, and I would very much like to pin him down.
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The four sons of George Clazy b.c.1730, m.Agnes Middlemist b.c.1730 are
1. William b.1753, Coldstream.
2. John b.1755, Coldstream.
3. James b.1760, Coldstream.
4. George b. 1765, Mordington.
1. William m.Isabella Thomson c.1784 - issue found - 7 (5boys, 2girls) eldest son
1.1 George b.1786, Hutton; probably m.Margaret Brack 1812, Bunkle & Preston.
2. John m.Margaret Palen 1777, Hutton - all issue known to have emigrated to Australia (see previous posts by others)
3. James m.Helen Ker 1786, Hutton/Chirnside - issue found - 9 (5boys, 4 girls) - eldest son
3.1 George b.1787, Hutton; m. Jean Lockie c.1812 - issue found - 8 (2boys, 6girls) - eldest son
3.1.1 James b.1816, Edrom (named after paternal grandfather which follows the convention of that time, as does the names of the rest of the children)
4. George m.Agnes Alexander 1793 Foulden - issue found - 6 (3boys, 3girls) eldest son
4.1 George b.1793, Foulden; m.Rabina Bell 1820 Kelso - issue found - 5 (1boy, 4girls) -only son
4.1.1 George b.1824, Eccles (named after paternal grandfather etc. etc.)
I have found no other Georges registered in that period in Berwickshire, Roxburghshire, or indeed anywhere else in Scotland: nor are there any 'orphans' which would suggest another line. [I have time lined all recorded Clazy (and associated spellings) births,marriages and deaths recorded in Scotland.]
This would therefore point to George, son of William and Isabella Thomson, being married to Margaret Brack.
Although their children do not follow the naming convention of the time entirely, the first female child, Agnes, is named after the maternal grandmother, the second female child, Isabella, is named after the paternal grandmother, and the third female child, Margaret, is named after the mother - all as was the convention of the time. The first male child is George, named after the maternal grandfather (and/or father), the second is un-named, and the third is William - not as the convention, although the William is significant. Perhaps there was an earlier William who did not survive, between Agnes and George?
I think the female line names, the birth locations of George and Margaret, and the lack of other possibilities clinches it anyway, notwithstanding that there were many unrecorded births etc..
I have lots of records of the Clazy family and if there is anything particular you would like a copy of please drop me an e-mail.
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'evening flashMinor (at least it is here in God's Country)
Many thanks for the info on the Skugells; I will add it to my time line. There are lots of them about but no Katharins in the Borders unfortunately. There are lots of Katharins in the Aberdeen area for some obscure reason....maybe one of them had a bike!
I recently turned up a Christina Hersie Gilkie Kerr (honest!) in my database, married to James Clazie. Her death record gives her parents as James Kerr, Farm Servant, and Mary Lawson: she died at Chalkie Law, Duns, on 13/03/1928 age 87: recorded by her son-in-law George Cockburn.
James Clazie 1831-1911 was the son of Thomas Clazie 1808-1878, and Agnes/Ann Tully(ie) 1804 to 1879. He died at Chirnside 09/08/1911, as recorded by his son James Thomas Clazie.
Thomas Clazie's parents were James Clazie and Helen Ker. Could this be the Kerr/Clazie tie in you are looking for?
On another tack, your search for Shirilaws, my maternal-maternal-paternal line (Dickson) originated in the Coldingham area. There were a family of Shirilaws there in the 1690s: parents Patrick Shirilaw and Agnes Lockart; children, Christian b.16/03/1695; William b.20/12/1696; Mary b.18/12/1698; David b.19/01/1701; Joseph b.01/08/1703; Patrick b.01/06/1707. Any help? Also: Shirlaw Pike is a hill in the Cheviots in Northumberland. Maybe your Shirilaws were from south of the border?
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The four sons of George Clazy b.c.1730, m.Agnes Middlemist b.c.1730 are
1. William b.1753, Coldstream.
2. John b.1755, Coldstream.
3. James b.1760, Coldstream.
4. George b. 1765, Mordington.
1. William m.Isabella Thomson c.1784 - issue found - 7 (5boys, 2girls) eldest son
1.1 George b.1786, Hutton; probably m.Margaret Brack 1812, Bunkle & Preston.
...
3. James m.Helen Ker 1786, Hutton/Chirnside - issue found - 9 (5boys, 4 girls) - eldest son
3.1 George b.1787, Hutton; m. Jean Lockie c.1812 - issue found - 8 (2boys, 6girls) - eldest son
...
This would therefore point to George, son of William and Isabella Thomson, being married to Margaret Brack.
Although their children do not follow the naming convention of the time entirely, the first female child, Agnes, is named after the maternal grandmother, the second female child, Isabella, is named after the paternal grandmother, and the third female child, Margaret, is named after the mother - all as was the convention of the time. The first male child is George, named after the maternal grandfather (and/or father), the second is un-named, and the third is William - not as the convention, although the William is significant.
That sounds plausible, more than plausible, but I am still curious as to why you conclude that George son of William married Margaret and George son of James married Helen, and not the other way around. I don't doubt you, I'd just like to know your reasoning.
Perhaps there was an earlier William who did not survive, between Agnes and George?
Quite possibly; I am sure there are children missing.
I think the female line names, the birth locations of George and Margaret, and the lack of other possibilities clinches it anyway, notwithstanding that there were many unrecorded births etc..
I guess this answers my question above. I need to do more work on all these families; I don't have half the information you have here.
I have lots of records of the Clazy family and if there is anything particular you would like a copy of please drop me an e-mail.
Thanks, I'd appreciate that. I have George and Margaret's marriage record, but not much else. My email is (*).
For anyone who is interested, I have put a book containing what I have so far on the Baltimore Clazeys here:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tms2/clazey-book.pdf
Please consider this a draft only, both editorially and genealogically. However, it still might be useful to someone.
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Hello anndra. Thanks very much for the Shirilaw information. They are probably at least close relatives of the ones I am after, who are a Margaret Shirilaw, married to John Johnstone (who had children between 1711 & 1725) and her father who may have been named Robert.
Interestingly, I'm descended from their son James who married an Isobel Dickson in Coldingham. I wonder if we are distant relatives, anndra? After finding out that patonia and I are fourth cousins, little would surprise me. I'm also trying to trace the Dicksons of the Coldingham area as far back as I can.
Clazey and I had an exchange a little while ago about teachers recurring through the generations and about people following unwittingly in the footsteps of forebears, and I remember noting by way of apology to you when I got Scougall generations so chronologically wrong that whatever my forebears taught couldn't have been mathematics. I've just found out courtesy of the Glasgow 1849-1850 Postal Directory that the gggg grandfather John Gordon to whom I was referring (the Johnstons, Shirilaws and Dicksons above are in his wife's line) taught English and history, which are my passions. It's nice to find a link that matters, and also nice to know that I don't represent a mutation in a numerically competent genetic line.
Anne
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That sounds plausible, more than plausible, but I am still curious as to why you conclude that George son of William married Margaret and George son of James married Helen Jean, and not the other way around. I don't doubt you, I'd just like to know your reasoning.
The first son of George and Jean Lockie was James, 'first male named after the paternal grandfather'..............
I have George and Margaret's marriage record, but not much else.
I will try to abstract a gedcom of the Clazy line from my FT so you can see all the links: also send .pdf files of BMD records. There may be a problem with the size of the files but I will see what I can do.
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Some odds and ends: Holy Trinity Burial Ground: Two maybes: 15 December 1675, Marie Caysley; 6 November 1706, William Haisley, Senior.
27 October 1717, Frances Clazey; 5 January 1717/1718, William Clasey; 23 January 1744/5, John Clasly.
Father William Clasey: Eleanor, bapt. 10 October 1666; William bapt. 9 January 1670 and Thomas bapt. 27 November 1675. Holy Trinity, Berwick.
Thomas Clazey bapt. 19 April 1691; Robert Clazey, father - daughter Marjorie bapt. 20 January 1680. Holy Trinity, Berwick.
Female, christened 5 January 1695. Father William Clazey and mother Elizabeth Stewart. Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland.
Jonathon Clayse, Arrived 1672, Accomack County, VA.
George Glaize, wife Isabelle and son George to Pennsylvania 1683.
Revolutionary War Pension Rolls: John Clasey, William Clasey and George Glaize.
I have not pursued the above except to locate the John in Virginia. Should perhaps take a closer look at these Revolutionary War era men...
Sharon
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I have George and Margaret's marriage record, but not much else.
I will try to abstract a gedcom of the Clazy line from my FT so you can see all the links: also send .pdf files of BMD records. There may be a problem with the size of the files but I will see what I can do.
Thanks; anything will be a help. Naturally, anything I have on the Baltimore Clazeys that you want I will send. I have several newspaper articles on the September 1856 riot between the Democrats and the American (or Know-nothing) parties. According to one, James Clazey instigated the violence (he was bartender in the Democratic Ward House).
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I have been looking at Canadian Clazies...trying to place a David Clazie who was in Rochester, NY during the same years as my grandparents. I think I have finally found the link...
Thomas Clazie, b. 1853 in Scotland. Father: William and mother Jane Greaves abt. 1825. David Clazie and his wife and one daughter remained in Rochester, NY and died there. The daughter moved to Chicago at some point. David and his wife were cremated in Mt. Hope Cemetery and their ashes were scattered to the four winds...(obituaries). Both were Canadian. I do not know if the families knew one another BUT...they always lived within a few blocks of each other during various moves.
Thomas Clazie died in Ontario, Canada.
Sharon
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This would therefore point to George, son of William and Isabella Thomson, being married to Margaret Brack.
The more I think about this, the more I think you are right. I normally don't consider naming conventions to be enough to decide questions of connections, but in this case it seems that if you assume one set of connections, there are many matches with the conventions, but if you switch connections, there are almost none. In that case, I think that assuming the conventions were followed makes sense.
Thanks for the info.
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I heard from a Clazie researcher who had not ever accessed this website. He is currently filling in other lines but will be visiting shortly! Naming conventions have proved to be invaluable in some instances with my Tough line...and it has led to speculation with the George Oswald Clazey line which left England and ended up in Carmel, NY in 1841. Sue Prust in Devon has Isabelle Clazey's trunks...she died in 1872. Slowly she tries to transcribe what she has found and given the family history she was transcribing before she died, it would appear that George was rather out of favor...according to her writings, he left but son John was the dutiful son...the youngest. George marries in NY and has three girls...and then one son and he is named James. Not named after his father but maybe a brother. Oswald does remain as the middle name as did two of his daughters have the same. Insight perhaps as to family dynamics of the time.
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I found a missing William Clazie (library version, Ancestry.com).
Born 11 February 1847. 1901 Census of Canada. He is in Ontario, Hastings, sub-district of Thurlow and a farmer.
For one Jess Clazie, abt. 1805, birthplace given as Coothill, Pelaith. Where is that?
Sharon
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I have
1. George & Agnes Middlemist - m.Coldstream 02/06/1751: issue
1.1 William b.Coldstream 16/08/1753
1.2 John b.Coldstream 27/04/1755
1.3 James b.Coldstream 14/12/1760
1.4 George b.Mordington 19/05/1765
Another two children:
William Glaizy 11/11/1756 Coldstream father George
Isabel Glazie 11/08/1763 Coldstream father George
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Never thought of that variant April!
The names fit in the timeline and assume that the first William died in 1754/5. They are the only Gl*z*s that appear on OPR although there was a Helen Glayze married to Thomas Higgins in Edinburgh Canongate in 1818. Her (late) father is given as James Glayze, soldier in the Shropshire Regiment?
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I found in the Revolutionary War Pension Rolls, US a George Glaize. And a George Glaize arrived in 1683 with wife Isabelle and son George in Pennsylvania. Will take a further look around to see how far I can get with that spelling.
When I was looking for the burial location of my 3x great grandfather, George Oswald Clazey, a researcher in New York found him under Glazey.
Sharon
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I have some images from the kirkyard which i had previously posted and this afternoon created a thread with two posts and eight images including transcriptions of the stones but as has happened previously site management has sent the threads to a place where neither i nor anyone else is able to access them. Sadly many of the surnames displayed in your signatures may have connected to the small number of images.
Through choice i have pulled the images i had posted to this thread, i still have the images on my pc and will also have them posted on my preferred site (Family Tree Forum) along with the 50+ Borders area church images i already have online there.
In the meantime if anyone would like any copies of the images or details about the church photographs, mostly Berwickshire, Roxburghshire and North Northumberland (Berwick on Tweed area) please get in touch, surnames from the eight stones include
Allan
Clazy
Luke
Meikle
Rutherford
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I would love to have a copy! And thank you for the offer.
(*)
Sharon
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All sent Sharon.
I have had a look through my assorted images (roughly 160 images of church and headstone pictures around the Borders area) and it's the only Clazy stone amongst them.
I tend to take images of the churches but have gathered a few (maybe 30-40) headstone images on my travels. Mostly the Dickson and Allan surnames together with a few in the surname of Meikle.
Again if anyone thinks they may be of use please get in touch.
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3. James m.Helen Ker 1786, Hutton/Chirnside - issue found - 9 (5boys, 4 girls)
I have found George (1786), Margaret (1787), Helen (1793), Alicia (1793), John (1798), Joseph (1800), James (1802), and Mary (1809). Who am I missing?
3.1 George b.1787, Hutton; m. Jean Lockie c.1812 - issue found - 8 (2boys, 6girls)
Likewise I have Agnes (1814), Jean (1820), Jane (1823), Janet (1825), George (1825), and Isabella (1828).
- eldest son
3.1.1 James b.1816, Edrom (named after paternal grandfather which follows the convention of that time, as does the names of the rest of the children)
Obviously one of the ones I have missed. Where did you find him?
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There are only 18 Sc*gal* births recorded on GRO in Berwickshire between 1553 and 1700 (all 1660 to 1700) and none unfortunately are Katharin so finding siblings and descendants is going to prove difficult. The spelling variations are Scougal(l), Scugal(l/d), Scowgal(l). I'll post anything I find that may be of help to you.
Try /s*ug?l*/ and you will find a few more. Still no Katherines, though.
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Does anyone (other than me) think that the William Clazy baptized in Berwick-on-Tweed in 1670 is the same William who married Katherine Scougal in Hutton in 1704?
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3. James m.Helen Ker 1786, Hutton/Chirnside - issue found - 9 (5boys, 4 girls)
I have found George (1786), Margaret (1787), Helen (1793), Alicia (1793), John (1798), Joseph (1800), James (1802), and Mary (1809). Who am I missing?
Thomas b.1808 Mordington d.1878 Chirnside - m. Agness Tulley b.1807 Mordington= son James b.abt 1831 Mordington d. 1911 Chirnside - m. Christina Hersie Gilkie Kerr b. 05 May 1840 Edrom d.13 Mar 1928 Duns - f. James Kerr abt 1805 m. Mary Lawson 29 Sep 1807 Langton (9 issue) parents James Lawson b.abt 1780 - m.Hersay Gilkie b. 11 Nov 1773 Langton.
3.1 George b.1787, Hutton; m. Jean Lockie c.1812 - issue found - 8 (2boys, 6girls)
Likewise I have Agnes (1814), Jean (1820), Jane (1823), Janet (1825), George (1825), and Isabella (1828).
James, as below, b.01 Jan 1816 Edrom d. 23 Mar 1880 Cleveland England - m.Ellen Lockhart 11 Jun 1840 Troy New York - b. 1816 Troy New York - d. 27 Oct 1889 Cleveland England.
Jane b.09 Jul 1830. first Jane d.<1830.
- eldest son
3.1.1 James b.1816, Edrom (named after paternal grandfather which follows the convention of that time, as does the names of the rest of the children)
Obviously one of the ones I have missed. Where did you find him?
Census Cleveland England.
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Does anyone (other than me) think that the William Clazy baptized in Berwick-on-Tweed in 1670 is the same William who married Katherine Scougal in Hutton in 1704?
I do! - sounds more than likely - Berwick to Hutton only 6 miles.
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Who were the parents of the George C. who married Agnes Middlemist?
The first we hear of George is his marriage to Agnes in 1751, so we don't have any record of his parents. There are two possibilities: the William who married Katherine Scougal, or their son William (whom I will call `Junior'). The former seems more likely.
Given the date of George's marriage, he was probably born in the mid-1720s, so he could be a late child of William or an early child of Junior. (These are the only two Clazeys known to have had children at the relevant times.) Neither possibility is inherently implausible.
However, ScotlandsPeople has a George Clunie being baptized in Ladykirk in 1748. His father is "William Clunie or Clazie" (it was in the IGI, too, but I don't see it now). Junior's last two known children were also baptized in Ladykirk in the 1740s, so this young George is probably his son. But George was still alive in 1748; he had not even married yet. That means that either Junior had two living sons named George, or that George was not Junior's son. The former seems much less likely than the latter (although stranger things have happened). So if George was not the son of Junior, he was probably his brother.
Does this make sense to anyone?
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In case anyone is interested, I found George Clazy the minister of Paisley, Renfrew, in Ancestry's 1871 census indexed under the name 'George Clarice'.
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Hi I have just signed up to Rootschat.com and I am interested in the Clazy family - my GG Grandmother's brother Dr William C MCEwan was married to Agnes Clazy daughter of Rev George Clazy (b. 1860) of Paisley - I have the line from the McEwan side down to myself if anyone is interested.
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I have just joined Rootsweb and intrigued to find this Clazy thread.
I am descended from HELEN CLAZY born Eccles c 1800 who married JOHN LOWRIE
I have her parents down as George Clazy amd Agnes Alexander.
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Sorry, wrong parents.
The Helen married to John Lowrie was born 04 Mar 1793 in Edrom, Berwickshire, Scotland, to James Clazy and Helen Kerr. She died on 17 May 1878 in Plympton Township, Lambton Co. Ontario, Canada.
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That is interesting. I gave up looking for the death of John Lowrie. Do you know if John Lowrie also died in Canada? I have all their children being born at Hassington Mains, Eccles. All boys.
Thank you for this information.
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Yes, John also died in Canada on 13 Jun 1877 in Plympton Township, Lambton Co, Ontario, Canada.
From my records they had seven sons and one daughter, Helen, b. 1814; d 09 Sep 1877 in Plympton Township, Lambton, Ontario, Canada
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Thank you once again for this information. I worked on my Lowrie's 20 years ago and gave up because I was unable to find the death. of father John Lowrie. I just thought he had died prior to registration and buried in an unmarked grave in Eccles Cemetery. I never thought of him emigrating to Canada. I would be interested in any information you have re. the Lowrie's. Should you have the name of his Father then I would get going again on my family.
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There is another Clazey researcher, Rick Heiser, also descended from a child of James Clazey and Helen Ker who also made his way to Canada via New York.
sharon
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George Claise / Claisye and Agnes Middlemist had a son, James, baptized at Coldstream on 14 December 1760.
However, years ago a researcher in Edinburgh, Dr. Moira Simmons, looked into some old records for me. She found, in the parochial registers of Mordington:
"1766 October 26th Baptized to George Claise and his spouse at Edrington (illegible), named James."
My belief is that James born in 1760 died; another son was born in 1766 and given the same name. Am I right? So easy to confuse a 6 and 0 when looking at old handwriting! Opinions please...
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Mistakes can spread so easily! Some online trees show that John Clezy (who emigrated to Australia in 1849) was born at Woolwich, Kent. That makes no sense and is likely an error. His parents were John Claise & Margaret Palen, from Hutton, Berwickshire. Unlikely that they ever were in Kent, which is far from Scotland, east of London. Almost certainly, John Clezy was born at WOOLER, Northumberland, and not WOOLWICH, Kent. Who has the original record to prove this?
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Mistakes can spread so easily! Some online trees show that John Clezy (who emigrated to Australia in 1849) was born at Woolwich, Kent. That makes no sense and is likely an error. His parents were John Claise & Margaret Palen, from Hutton, Berwickshire. Unlikely that they ever were in Kent, which is far from Scotland, east of London. Almost certainly, John Clezy was born at WOOLER, Northumberland, and not WOOLWICH, Kent. Who has the original record to prove this?
Do you have any documents to support your idea of Wooler vice Woolwich? I agree that Woolwich seems odd, but it is not impossible; people did move around. The last record I have found of his parents is their marriage in 1777. Who knows where they were when John was born?
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Woolwich is not strictly impossible but seems unlikely. Is there any evidence at all that John Clezy was born in Woolwich? Is there evidence of any famiy connection to Kent? Wooler is in the Cheviot foothills, near Ford and Etal, where we know that Clazie/Clazey families lived, at least as early as 1819 and perhaps earlier; 15 miles from Berwick upon Tweed, 20 mi from Duns. Evidence would be a good thing. Until that evidence turns up, Wooler seems a far more likely birthplace for John Clezy than does Woolwich.
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I agree as well that is unlikely to be Woolwich.
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Paul Fergie, in England, deserves a medal for tracking this down! The idea that John Clezy was born at Woolwich originates here:
“Correspondence from Margaret Clezy nee Steele who married James Clezy, the younger son of John Clezy (1790) in a letter to Peter Steele Clezy’s grandmother (Elsy Clezy). Margaret reports that her father-in-law had been born in Woolwich and that his father had served in the Royal Artillery.”
The woman who wrote the letter would be Margaret Macdonald Steele, b. 7 Oct 1846 at Nairne, South Australia. She had likely never been in England. John Clezy himself died in 1864, when Margaret Macdonald Steele was only 18 years old. How much contact did they have at Nairne? Did she get the information from John himself, or second- or third-hand? Might she have confused Woolwich with Wooler, or some other place? Is she a reliable authority on this point?
Her letter said that John Clezy’s father (John Claise, who m. Margaret Palen) was in the Royal Artillery. Do we have any evidence of that? Are there records that could confirm whether he was in the Royal Artillery, and whether he was ever posted at Woolwich?
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I had forgotten about this, but some time ago Sharon Spry sent me a PDF file on the Steele's that included John Clezy. The title on the first page is John and Elizabeth (nee Steele) Disher, while in the footer of each page it says "Descendants of William Steele". It is dated 16 Jan 2007 and is 265 pages long. No author is named, but I believe it is from Peter Clezy of Australia. It appears to be the output from a genealogy program.
Regarding John Clezy it says, "John was born in Woolwich, Kent in 1790. In a successful application to the Edinburgh Academy in 1823 that he told the academy that his primary education was at Woolwich." [sic] This appears in a quotation from "'The Old Partnership', by Peter Steele Clezy, 2002".
I am willing to accept this as evidence of John's birth in Woolwich. It does not seem to be the kind of thing one would fabricate, nor does it seem to be the kind of thing that would be mistakenly passed on.
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Hurray! Thank you! I agree, we now have something substantial. Over 200 years after the fact, that is as close as we are likely to find to any "evidence". I accept it too.
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Paul Fergie, in England, deserves a medal for tracking this down! The idea that John Clezy was born at Woolwich originates here:
“Correspondence from Margaret Clezy nee Steele who married James Clezy, the younger son of John Clezy (1790) in a letter to Peter Steele Clezy’s grandmother (Elsy Clezy). Margaret reports that her father-in-law had been born in Woolwich and that his father had served in the Royal Artillery.”
The woman who wrote the letter would be Margaret Macdonald Steele, b. 7 Oct 1846 at Nairne, South Australia. She had likely never been in England. John Clezy himself died in 1864, when Margaret Macdonald Steele was only 18 years old. How much contact did they have at Nairne? Did she get the information from John himself, or second- or third-hand? Might she have confused Woolwich with Wooler, or some other place? Is she a reliable authority on this point?
Her letter said that John Clezy’s father (John Claise, who m. Margaret Palen) was in the Royal Artillery. Do we have any evidence of that? Are there records that could confirm whether he was in the Royal Artillery, and whether he was ever posted at Woolwich?
It should be possible to find such evidence, if it exists. Findmypast has some military records, including records of baptisms, etc., performed by army chaplains. I don't have a subscription, or I'd check myself. It is also possible that John was a civilian working for the army.
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:) I have a tree with Margaret Clazy at http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=alex1698&id=I61. Additions and corrections welcome.
Ken Doig, Bass Lake, California www.doig.net
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re John Clezy, rector of Selkirk Grammar School who migrated to South Australia in 1849: he was said to have a refined English accent, which suggests he was brought up south of the border. He said he learnt English at Woolwich, and Greek and Latin at Berwick. Berwick-upon-Tweed had the first purpose-built army barracks in the north of England, so it is very likely that his father was stationed at both places.
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John Clezy's high level of education is all the more remarkable in a family that also included many servants, farm workers, paupers. George Clezie, born 1787 at Hutton, was a first cousin of John Clezy. George left Scotland for Canada after his twin children, George and Janet, both died of measles in late 1831. He voted in the 1841 civic election at Toronto and the voting list showed his name as CLIZZEE. The 1861 census - two years before his death - described him as illiterate. Why did such huge discrepancies of education exist within the same family?
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I am so excited to have found this! I am researching my partner's family - they are descended from Thomas Toucher, son of Margaret Claisy (21 February 1789 - 23 November 1856), who married Thomas Taucher. I am eager to connect with anyone who can provide any information on the family and will be happy to provide all the information we have on the descendents of Thomas Toucher.
A brief outline: Thomas Toucher married Elizabeth Trotter. They had two daughters: Elizabeth & Margaret. Margaret Toucher married Robert McLeish. They had a number of children, many of whom had the middle name of Toucher. One daughter, Margaret Toucher McLeish, married David Broatch Campbell. Margaret & David had 7 daughters and the entire family came to Canada, settling in the Montreal area. My partner's family is descended from one of the daughters, Jemima Broach Campbell, who married William Charles Scott. This family now lives (mostly) in the Toronto area though one has made his way "back" to Scotland and lives in Milton of Campsie (near Glasgow). Other descendents of Margaret & David live in Montreal, California (USA) and Chicago (USA).
campbellfamilyweb.com
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Thank you for the information, Scottish Girl. I am interested in knowing about the children of Thomas & Margaret. Happy to share what I have about the Clazie / Clezie, etc. family.
I wonder if you have seen a remarkable inscription on a stone at Chirnside churchyard? It mentions Thomas & Margaret near the bottom. My cousin took good photos of it about 10 years ago. In June I visited Chirnside and found the inscription becoming eroded and harder to read:
In Memory of
Helen Carr Wife of James
Clezy who died 15th April
1826 Aged 62 Years
Also Joseph Clezie their Son
who died May 18th 1823 Aged
23 Years
The said James Clezie died
on the 8th June 1833 Aged 66
Years
Also Margaret Claizey
Wife of Thomas Taucher
who Died Nov 23 1856
Aged 65 Years
Also James Clazey Son of the
above James Clazey who died at
Hutton 8 Decr 1860 Aged 88 Years
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Thank you so much for the headstone information. I would love to see a picture of it!
I am feeling quite overwhelmed by the amount of Clazy information on here. We only just discovered the Claisy/Clazy (etc) connection and I am trying to navigate my way through it.
We would be happy to provide all we know about our branch of the family. How are you connected?
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I am looking for more information on this line through the women. George Clezie married Jean Lockie 1813; GEorge Clazy married Rabina Bell 1819; James Clezy married ? but first child, Alicia b. 1793 Edrom; Thomas Clazie b. 1737, Edrom; George Clazy m. Margaret Brack, 1812; Buncles and Preston; John Clazy m. Margaret Gray, 1816; William Clazy m. Katharin Liongat, Hutton, 6/14/1703; Mary Clazy m. John Wilson, 1832; Margaret Clazy m. Robert Hay, 1841. James Clazy m. Jessy Brodie, 1825; Isabella Clazy m. David Drummond, Eccles;
It is the 1703 entry that has me intrigued...I cannot get past this date and would love to discover who William's father was and where they were.
Sharon:)
Sharon there is a Drummond & Clazie just inside the gate at Edrom Kirk.
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My grandmother was Gertrude Jane Clezie, born 1874 at Cleveland, Ohio;
her grandparents were Ellen Lockhart & James Kerr Clezie, b. 1816 at Edrom;
his grandparents were Helen Kerr & James Clezie, b. 1766 at Edrington;
and his parents were Agnes Middlemist & George Claisye, b. about 1725-35.
In June, 2011, I took several photos of the remarkable gravestone at Chirnside, with 5 names and 4 different spellings. All those photos are poor quality. The stone is old, weather-worn, leaning at a steep angle, nearly ready to fall. Maybe a trained photographer could get a decent photo; I failed. So I copied the words carefully. Don't want to lose that valuable information! It neatly shows how the various branches - Clazie, Clazey, Clezie, Clezy, Clazy - are one extended family.
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'Now in Remission - A Surgical Life' is Ken Clezy's memoirs, just published by Wakefield Press. Three chapters about recent 6 years in Yemen, but most is about time in Papua New Guinea, plus some family history and upbringing. Book Depository say they will have it from Oct 31. How they send books all over the world post-free beats me, but they do. They have an email link to allow notification as soon as it is available.
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Apologies - I was too hasty and copied the last item in the Chirnside inscription wrong. James Clazey or Clazie was born in 1802, so when he died on 8 Dec 1860 he was aged 58 years, not 88. That is a big difference.
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Sorry I didn't see you when you were over. I live in Greenlaw so would have enjoyed meeting a Clazy relative. I must go and look for the Clazey headstone in Chirnside.
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I encourage you to go and see the stone at Chirnside. A historical treasure! It really makes the point that correct spelling is a modern concept. Our ancestors wrote the name however it sounded to them - Claisey, Claizey, Clazey, Clazie, Clazy, Clezie, Clezy, Clisy, Clizzee. They never imagined that we, their descendants, would dare to criticize their spelling.
It would have been a pleasure to meet more cousins. Paul Fergie, a descendant of Mary Sheriff Edwards Clazie, was my guide and chauffeur. Highlights of our trip were:
- Hutton Kirk, where volunteer guides led us up steep, shaky ladders into the belfry, to see and photograph the Flemish bell that Jon Clazie delivered in 1665. We were even allowed to pull the rope, to ring the bell. A thrilling, happy memory!
- Coldstream Bridge, where it is believed Agnes Middlemist and George Claisye wed on 2 June 1751, now 260 years ago.
- The National Archives of Scotland, where we found and made copies of dozens of birth, marriage and death certificates, even the Kirk Session Book of Hutton Parish, dated 1665, that recorded payment of 16 shillings to Jon Clazie "for drink", when he delivered the bell.
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Hi, this is the first time that I have read these posts. I am writing a book on the history of the STEELE family in South Australia, and for those who know, the CLEZY family are heavily intertwined. I met Peter Clezy a number of years ago who gave me verbal permission to use information from his book (which I have) to my book. Someone has a copy of one of my printouts (265 pages long). I would be really interested in talking with people who are related to John CLEZY. I have been researching him since 1993, the book is due to be published really soon.
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I'm Ken Clezy, an eldest son, living in Adelaide now. If you look us up in the phone book under Clezy JKA you'll find me. I'd be very pleased to see you. My own memoirs have just been published by Wakefield Press, who tell me l'm their fastest selling author right now, whatever that means.
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A website has a list of the clients of notaries in Paris, 300 years ago, now of only historical interest. Notaries handled legal matters, wills and estates, marriage contracts, property sales. Among the names:
CLEZIÈ, Claude fourbisseur privilégié du roi x ROLLAND, Anne veuve, 20/05/1732
CLEZIE, Geneviève Emmanuelle x SORET, Pierre Etienne me-tonnelier, 22/06/1790 , le mari défunt.
CLEZIE, Hélène Théodore x DEDOYARD, Henri Joseph compagnon orfèvre, 22/06/1790 , épouse delaissée.
CLEZIE, Pierre Eustache me-fourbisseur x PARIGUET, Jeanne, 22/06/1790, tous deux défunts, parents des dames SORET et DEDOYARD.
(A supplier to the king married a widow; a woman married a widower, who made barrels; another woman married a goldsmith, who was deserted by his first wife. The final entry was a married couple, both deceased, with two daughters.)
The relevance is, it indicates that the surname was French, yet was found at Hutton and Berwick-upon-Tweed as early as the 1600s.
Paulin is another clearly French name, found in very early records at Ladykirk and elsewhere, sometimes written Palen, Palin, Paline.
How to explain these French surnames in Berwickshire?
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I recently discovered an ancestor in Kelso with the surname Companion, and although the name seems to have disappeared from Scotland, it is current in French-speaking Canada, while the original French form Compagnon is still common in both Canada and France. Another Berwickshire name of French origin is Dippie, which seems to come from Dieppe. Of course, many old Scottish surnames derive from Frenchmen and Bretons who were given land in Scotland from the 12th century onwards, but in modern times there can be a variety of reasons for French people settling here. My home town in Fife is a former fishing village and in the 19th century families from Boulogne called Montador and Gen settled there. An Elisabeth Lecadit who shows up in the 19th century censuses of my home town was the daughter of a perfumer/hairdresser who shows up in the Edinburgh Register of Aliens.
One thing I can promise you - tracing a French or other foreign ancestor in Scotland will provide a fascinating research topic for you!
Harry
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An amusing incident was recorded at Hutton, 1665. The kirk was being renovated. Donations were solicited from wealthy patrons and the poor congregation, to buy a bell.
Bells seem to have been imported in quantity, from the Burgerhuys foundry in Flanders. When the Hutton bell was ready, Jon Clazie was sent bring it to town, maybe from Berwick-upon-Tweed. I imagine him in a cart, pulled by a horse, mule or ox.
On 19 March 1665, the Hutton kirk session book recorded this payment:
"Given to Jon Clazie for drink qn the bell came home - 16 sh."
This is our first record of the Clazie family at Hutton. Jon Clazie is otherwise unknown. His birth, marriage and death, not yet found.
Then come scattered events at Hutton, with a variety of spellings:
1704 - Marriage of William Clasey & Catharin Scougal, baptism of their son, William Clasie
1706 - Baptism of Elizabeth Clasie, daughter of William & Catharin above
1717 - Birth of Katherine Claise, daughter of William & Catharin above
1734 - Marriage of Elizabeth Clasie & James Friskin
1777 - Marriage of John Clazie & Margaret Palen (Paulin)
1786 - Baptism of George Clazy, son of William Claise & Isabel Thomson
1787 - Baptism of George Clezie, son of James Clezie & Helen Kerr
1795 - Baptism of Margaret Clazy, daughter of George Clazy & Agnes Alexander
Ignore the spelling differences - they seem to be one extended family, all related. How can we bridge the gaps, to link Jon Clazie in 1665 with these later family events?
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I've just been checking the Edinburgh Post Office directories online for a Stephenson ancestor in 1840s Edinburgh, and I see that in 1840-41 there was a George Clazy, city missionary, living at 18 Meadow Place. He ought to show up in the 1841 census.
Harry
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Thank you, Harry. George Clazy, the home missionary, is indeed listed in the 1841 census at 18 Meadow Place, St. Cuthbert's, and again in 1851. This particular George Clazy was at least the 3rd George in a sequence, and he was followed by many more - at least 39 of them in the Clazie-Clazey-Clazy-Clezie-Clezy family. Enough to give anyone a headache! For the sake of future genealogists, all parents should be encouraged to give their children original names.
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The latest on the Clazie, etc. saga...
Pre-Revolutionary records from France are now available online. They show Clesie, Clezie, Clézie spellings at Paris, 1732-1790. The accent aigu “é” would be pronounced like Clazie.
A record at Habloville, in Normandy, shows burial of a child, Pierre Clezie, in 1749.
Clezie and Clezy spellings are found at Ay and Vitry-le-François, in the Marne region east of Paris, 1899 & 1901.
Meanwhile, records at Berwick-upon-Tweed and at Hutton, Berwickshire, show the name from 1665 to the present, written Clasey, Clazie, Clazey, Clazy, Clezie, Clezy.
The name is so unusual, it could hardly have sprung up independently, on both sides of the Channel, just a few years apart. How to find a link? Suggestions appreciated.
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Very interesting reading.. upon researching Rutherford first, it took me to Roxborough/Berwickshire. I have since started looking into Clezy...low and behold, same area. And as Ive found on here with headstones...same time. If I find a connection I shall be totally gobsmacked...
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You are certainly related! The name is so unusual, that all of us with any version of it are "cousins" of some kind. I've got a list of names with 107 Clazey, 234 Clazie, 42 Clazy, 82 Clezie, 137 Clezy, all related to each other. Where are you from? Who was your Clezy grandfather? We can probably figure out where you fit in the tree.
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My hubbys grandfather is from Symmington area in Ayrshire, Robert Clezy
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surnames from the eight stones include
With regards to...
Allan
Clazy
Luke
Meikle
Rutherford
Do I have my own series of Outlander going on here... Clezy now but was Rutherford. The Rutherfords seem to have originated at the Borders ( Roxborough/Berwick areas), so I'm interested to discover why and when the Clezy's (Clazy's) arrived
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I see a Robert Clezy born at Symington in 1940; his father was an earlier Robert Clezy from Glenboig; grandfather was John Clezy from Glasgow who married Jessie Gegg; great-grandfather was William Clazy who changed the spelling to Clezy and married Annie Watson. This William came from Scone but was a nephew of my great-great-great-grandfather George Clezie, born at Hutton, Berwickshire, who migrated to Canada in 1832. So yes, looks like your husband and I are probably 5th or 6th or 7th cousins! More cousins are scattered in Australia, New Zealand, Canada and USA.