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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: JLo on Tuesday 19 October 04 22:12 BST (UK)
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Looking for any information on a line of our family that originated in Cork. Henry C Raynes was Harbourmaster of Cork 1873-1877. His brother John George Raynes (b1822) moved to England and changed his name to Ryall. He married in Birmingham in 1866 and his marriage certificate lists him as a widower, so he may well have been married in Ireland beforehand. His father is named as John Ryall, although I suspect that this is not true. ???
Any help/suggestions on where to look next would be greatly appreciated.
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Hi,
Try checking the Cork City Directories. There are some on this great site
http://homepage.eircom.net/~ridgway/Cork%20City.htm
Other links to try on my site.
Kate
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Thanks Kate for the suggestion. I have a look and although I didn't find 'my' Raynes, I did find a couple of names that may be worth further investigation. I shall keep looking.....!
Thanks again
Julie
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Hi I am currently researching a James Raynes, A SEA cAPTAIN FROM 1828 and was wondering if he was linked into your family by anychance...Regards Kathy
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Hi Kate
Haven't had much luck with this part of the family, so not sure if there is a James Raynes or not - haven't come across him yet......
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The name Raynes is registered in counties Down, Mayo and Kildare start of 1900.
No hits for the name in Cork
Saying that Henry C Raynes was Harbourmaster and might have worked in Cork for a period of time and moved back to where they came from.
Had a look in the 1911 census and found 7 records in the whole of Ireland for the name Raynes
The name Ryalll gives 128 records, found no Henry C but DID find a John George Ryall born about 1858 and his wife Susannah and son Thomas Robert, all born in Cork. John George Ryall was a J.P Farmer I do not know what that means. 2 children were born son Thomas only survived, he was born about 1885. They lived in house number 3 in Ballynoe (Gortroe, County Cork)
The Ryalls were members of the Church of Ireland, giving away the English background a bit.
The first Ryall in Cork was John Ryall born about 1842 in County Cork, who lived with his son Thomas born 1866 in county Cork and his sons wife Mary born 1871 in county Limerick.
The eldest Raynes was Martin Raynes born 1838 in County Galway, farm servant of the Grady family of Slievemahanagh, County Mayo
So a good bit of information on the Ryalls but hardly anyting for the Raynes name.
Hope you can use this information, happy searching
Annemarie
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Hi JLo. Ime from Cork City & i think we might be related. My great grand mothers name was Eliza Raynes. She married Joseph Moriarty in 1848. They had a daughter .Her name was Anna. She married a man named Cornelius Geary. My Mothers grandfather. I HOPE IME RIGHT.
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Hi JNBY, I wonder was your Eliza connected to my James Ranynes who hailed from Cork in I828, not 100 % sure of his date of birth but it is posssib;e that he is an uncle or brother to your Eliza... have you any more information.....?
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Too early in the morning pelling mistakes and all!! That is supposed to read Captain James Raynes
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These are all the Raynes people born in Ireland from 1836 to 1907
Church Baptism Raynes Louisa 1836 Co. Donegal
Civil Birth Raynes Mary 1876 Co. Galway
Civil Birth Raynes William F 1907 Co. Antrim
These are the people who lived in Ireland from 1845 to 1865, all in Cork
Raynes Andrew Lough Lane St. Finbars Co. Cork
Raynes Andrew Hargraves Quay St. Annes Shandon Co. Cork
Raynes Edward Carrignagroghera/t/fermoy:barrack-Hill Fermoy Co. Cork
Raynes James Glanmire Road Lower (rockgrove Terrace) St. Annes Shandon Co. Cork
Raynes Mary Leitrim Street St. Annes Shandon Co. Cork
There is no birth record for Henry Raynes but there is a census record from 1865 :
Raines Henry Millerd's Street Cork Cork St. Peters Co. Cork
Also :
Area - CORK & ROSS (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - CORK - SOUTH PARISH
Baptism of WM JAMES GEORGE RAYNES of N/R on 24 May 1817
Area - CORK & ROSS (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - CORK - SOUTH PARISH Baptism of VALENTINE RAYNES of N/R on 20 November 1797
Father James Raynes, mother Margaret McCarthy
Area - CORK & ROSS (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - CORK - SS. PETER & PAUL
Baptism of CHRISTOPHER JOHN RAYNES of N/R on 25 December 1857
Father Patrick Raynes, mother Margaret Riordan
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These are all the Raynes people born in Ireland from 1836 to 1907
Church Baptism Raynes Louisa 1836 Co. Donegal
Civil Birth Raynes Mary 1876 Co. Galway
Civil Birth Raynes William F 1907 Co. Antrim
Civil registration of births started in 1864 and for earlier dates many church records will not have survived so this is unlikely to be a complete list.
Actually, if you put the surname Raynes into civil registration index you'll see lots more listed-
http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails&c=fs%3A1408347
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These are all the Raynes people born in Ireland from 1836 to 1907
Church Baptism Raynes Louisa 1836 Co. Donegal
Civil Birth Raynes Mary 1876 Co. Galway
Civil Birth Raynes William F 1907 Co. Antrim
......
In addition to the point made by aghadowey about the survival of records - I am assuming that search is carried out the the IFHF website, in which case it's not really all the people of that surname baptised in Ireland between those dates, as the IFHF does not include several counties - e.g. Wexford, Offaly, Carlow, Dublin City etc..
Shane
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Gosh it's been busy on here today!
I have to admit that I haven't looked at my Raynes/Ryall family for a while as I came to a bit of a brick wall so I'm feeling a bit confused/vague reading all this today!
JNBY - I don't know if we're related but it would be great if we were as you may be able to help sort it all out!
I know we are related to (although I'm not 100% sure how!) Henry Christopher Raynes - he was the captain of the steamship Upupa (Cork Steam-packet Company) before becoming Harbourmaster in May 1873. He died in Cork in 1877. He definitely had a sister named Elizabeth Raynes who was unmarried in 1877. I don't know when he was born, only that he had worked for the Cork steam-packet company since about 1855.
Our direct ancestor is John George who was born in Cork in 1822. Family stories say that he was born John George Raynes, but after a family dispute (to do with religion) he was disowned and changed his name to Ryall.
The first evidence I have of him is his marriage certificate in England in 1866 which states he is a widower. I also have him on the English census in 1871,1881,1891 & 1901 where he is listed as being born in Cork.
I also have (passed to me from older members of the family) a copy of a will dated 1812 written by Elizabeth Sullivan (widow of Francis Sullivan) who lived in Cork City. This has a witness statement on the end written by Teresa Raynes in 1826, wife of John Raynes, who lived at Lower Glanmire Road.
I'm not at all sure how any of these fit together and whether any of them fit with either Eliza or James!
Think I need to revisit all this, I'm feeling more muddled than ever!
Julie x
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Jlo - do you know what religion your Raynes family were ?
The (free) website at www.irishgenealogy.ie has RC records for the west of the county and Cork city, but does not include the east of the county or Church of Ireland records at present.
you mentioned Harbourmaster.. which port was that ? (Cork city, Cobh/Queenstown etc...)
Shane
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Hi Shane
The simple answer to the religion question is I'm not sure! I think the family story is that the Raynes were RC and John George became CofI, but it might have been the other way round!! It is one of those 'handed down' stories that has lost a lot of detail/accuracy over the years!
Henry Christopher was 'Harbourmaster for the port and harbour of Cork' which I'm assuming means Cork City.
Thanks for the link, I shall go and have a look..
Julie
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Had a look at the link Shane and have now added to my collection of Raynes, although still not quite sure how/if they are connected! Very interesting site :)
My guess (and it is a complete guess) is that John Raynes married Teresa Sullivan, they had at least 3 children - John George, Henry Christopher and Elizabeth....just got to prove/disprove it!
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There's some Raynes entries in Francis Guys Cork City & County Directory 1875/6 - see : link (http://www.evendon.net/PGHLookups/CorkIR1875M.htm)
If you search just for Raynes (see the frame to the top left of screen.), there are four results.
0468 Port of Cork (city) harbour & ballast master Capt. Henry Raynes
0522 list of corp. off. - Water Bailiff Capt. Ranyes
0569 street listing for Capt. Henry Raiyes at 32 Middle Glanmire Rd
0688 (index)
see the Cork Resources (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,369.0.html) section for this and other links that may help the search
Shane
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Thanks Shane
I'd had a look at that directory yesterday but hadn't spotted the search box! At least my assumption that it was Cork city was right.
Julie
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hi Jlo. This is what i have for you. Good news.
MARRIAGE OF JOHN RAYNES to TERESA SULLIVAN. 11-08-1819
SOUTH PARISH. CORK&ROSS (RC) CHURCH RECORDS.
ACCESS. WWW.IRISHGENEALOGY.IE
THEIR FAMILY
FRANCIS RAYNES. DOB. 31-05-1820
JAMES RAYNES DOB. 07-03-1922
ELIZABETH RAYNES DOB. 07-12-1823
JOHN RAYNES DOB. 26-04-1825
HENRY RAYNES DOB. 25-03-1828
ST. MARYS & ST ANNES. (RC) CORK & ROSS. (NOT ON LINE)
ALL RESULTS. IN CORK CITY. IRELAND.
THE ELIZABETH IS MY GRT. GRT, GRAN MOTHER.
BEST OF LUCK. IF YOU NEED ANYMORE HELP ILE DO MY BEST TO HELP.
JOHN.
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Wow that certainly looks very promising. That's brilliant - thanks ;D
Now I've got to find some proof that this John Raynes and my John George Ryall are one and the same person...If they are then John Raynes is my husbands grt grt grandfather which would make the two of you 4th cousins I think!
Do you have access to the marriages of any of the children? I was wondering if John's first marriage might give me a clue.
I have reference to Elizabeth in a passage from a book I was sent "The Endless Adventure" which is about Cork Harbour and has a very small part about Henry in it. If you want a copy of it let me know.
Thanks again
Julie
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Hi there,
I'm also trying to find out what I can about John George Ryall (or Raynes).
I'm descended from the Birmingham Ryalls through my mother (who's now 83). Her grandmother was Henrietta, the youngest of John and Elizabeth Ryall's three daughters. This makes me John George Ryall's great, great grandson.
It's quite amazing, but the family tradition of an ancestor who was the harbour master at Cork has survived for over a century in our branch of the family too, although the detail had all been lost or garbled. The Raynes surname was completely forgotten and nothing of John Ryall was remembered, with the harbour master assumed to be our direct ancestor (instead of, as seems highly likely, his brother). My mother even mistakenly believed until I started researching last year that her grandmother Henrietta had herself been born in Ireland.
Following the link to http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch that aghadowey posted (for which many thanks) I found a death record for Henry Christopher Raynes in Cork in 1877, aged only 48. His estimated birth year is given as 1829, which is close enough to the 1828 date in the parish records that jnby posted (another very big “thank you” !)
As you may already know, Theresa, Elizabeth and Henrietta Ryall had a younger brother, also called Henry Christopher. He was born c 1877, so it seems quite reasonable to assume he was named in honour of his recently deceased uncle.
There’s more which I think has a bearing on this. The young Henry emigrated to Canada but eventually returned to Europe during the Great War as a private in the Canadian army (he was in in his late thirties by then and it’s thought he didn’t marry). Henry fought on the Western Front and died of wounds on 14th June 1916. He’s buried in Lijssenthoek Military Cemetery at Poperinge in Belgium. A transcript of his gravestone can be found if you do a search at http://www.mapleleaflegacy.ca. If you click on the “details” tab, it says that he was the only son of the late John and Elizabeth Ryall of Birmingham.
The really interesting bit though is that it also notes that he “…served as Raynes.” So for reasons completely unknown he chose for that part of his life to use what we assume to be the family’s former surname (perhaps another small mystery there in itself ).
Some quite promising clues here I hope to strengthen the link between John Ryall and the name Raynes in Cork, and even specifically with Captain Henry Raynes.
Paul
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How exciting - someone with the same brick wall to chip away at as me!!!
We had exactly the same family story about the Harbourmaster so I'm guessing that it came from higher up the tree than I thought! My mother-in-law is the granddaughter of Elizabeth Winifred Ryall (Henrietta's sister) I have a few articles relating to the Harbourmaster if you would like copies.
A very interesting 'clue' about the young Henry that you found - very curious that he should use that name, I wonder why...the mystery deepens! Definitely a link and the first one that mentions Raynes and Ryall together. A good step forward I think - well done!
Julie
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Hi Julie,
Yes - I think the harbourmaster tradition must go all the way back to John George Ryall, who therefore seems to have been quite proud of his brother (I guess we should still say, "presumed brother" but it all seems to be coming together slowly but surely...)
It would be great if someone could unearth a cache of family letters to shed some light on all of this, but I'm not aware of anything like that surviving on our side of the tracks. My mum seems to feel that her parent's generation may have been a little careless in disposing of whatever papers might've come down from the Ryall sisters.
My mum's maiden name incidentally was Stark. She is Henrietta Ryall's granddaughter and knew her as "Grandma Stark" (Henrietta married George James Stark). We have an Edwardian photo of Henrietta and George with my grandfather Henry George Stark as a little boy, and some nice ones of Henrietta as an elderly lady (I'm guessing they were been taken in the '40s). Other than that, not very much.
I'd absolutely love to have copies of any articles you have relating to the harbourmaster, and it's very kind of you to offer (perhaps you could send me a PM?)
Thanks & best wishes,
Paul
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I am new to this site & found it by chance. I am looking for any info on John Raynes 1820 who married Margaret Morrow and had 10 childen named: Whelly, Alice, Horace, Liza, Anne, Agnes, William, George, David & MaryJane. David would be my Gr Grandfather. I have no local relatives as they were from Canada & spead out through out the US. I was given a history of another line & it stopped at David. I found more info on Geneology.com connecting David to 9 siblings. Thanks
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Hi,
I came across the Raynes surname recently while doing some research at the Cork City Library.
The name had various spellings - Raynes, Rains, & Rayns .
The information I have is from the Journal of the Cork Historical and Archaelogical Society and from an
item by the author Richard Henchion. Gravestone inscriptions of Co. Cork - St Peters church Cork.
This relates to St Peters Church of Ireland, Duncan Street - which is now the Cork Vision Centre, the entrance is on North Main Street.
One headstone for John Rayns and family 1777. More detailed information provided by Mr. Henchion as follows -
John and Joseph Rains were timber merchants, Clarks Marsh 1787, well documented family starting with
John Raynes Sheriff of Cork 1694. Henry 1832-1877 one time master of Cork Steamship Coy. "Dodo" and harbour master of Cork.
Rains buried at St. Peters , Jonathan 1846,William 1760, John 1762,John 1767, William Robert 1817,
John died 14 July 1756 , the Paul Street Cabinet Marke death reported Cork Journal the following day.
It is interesting that the earlier Rayns ( Raynes) had connections to St Peters Church of Ireland. It is not specified whether they are RC or C of I.
The connection to the Cork Steamship Company would indicate a connection to your Raynes.
Some sites with more information www.corkpastandpresent.ie www.corkrecords.com and www.corkarchives.ie
Hope this throws some extra light on the family.
Mary
Celtic Liberty
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Many many thanks Celtic Library this looks like really intriguing information. The Henry you mention sounds a very promising link. If they are a 'well documented' family there is hope that I might find them!
Am going to have a sift through everything I've got so far and try and match some of the new info in.
Wish me luck!! ;)
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You are welcome, and the best of luck with your searches.
I will keep you in mind and if I come across anything that I think might be relevant I will post it here.
Mary
Celtic Liberty
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Hi,
Came across details of John Raynes & Theresa's marriage on Rosemary Ffolliott's newspaper index. Although John George seems to have a birth date of 1822 approx, the records on www.irishgenealogy.ie for John Raynes and Theresa Sullivan do not appear to have a John George so is he their son??
Details on newspaper -
Southern Reporter 13 July 1819 - On Sunday morning by the Rev Dean Collins, John Raynes Esq. Master of the Brig HIBERNIA of Cork to Theresa 4th daughter of the late Francis Sullivan of Warren's Quay, Esq.
So both fathers were gentlemen with the Esq title.
Again this supports the idea of the "Raynes" as Ship's Masters.
Mary
Celtic Liberty
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John,
Looked at the posts again and I see that you have John's dob for 1825 so I presume this is the man who went to England and changed his name to Ryall, so the pieces seem to be falling into place.
Mary
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Hi all
I've been reading your posts with interest. I'm descended from the RAIN(E)S family who you'd found being buried in Cork. Is there any further information on the gravestone which mentiosn 2 Johns and others. I've got the transcript form Henshion but would be interested in and avilabe entries from the church registers, if they exists, or a transcript of the gravestones themselves. I'm also looking for my gggrandmother Kate Raines, daughter of William, who was born in February 1837 possibly in Irelsnd, Kensington, Gravesend, Kent or the City of London depending which census I have to hand at the time. Infuriating woman. William does not appear anywhere at all, and resolutely refuses to be found. Any halp at all with this one would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Tickle
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Hi again,
Just a little note, I came across two headstones recently at St. Joseph's cemetery, Cork for Raynes -
1.
To the memory of /Elizabeth Raynes/ the beloved sister of/ the late Henry C Raynes/ who departed
this life in Birmingham/ 9th March 1891/ aged 67 years.
2 Henry C. Raynes & his beloved wife Bessie Josephine - very illegible but a very large celtic cross for a
headstone.
Both headstones are side by side.
Mary
Celtic liberty
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Hi Mary,
Many thanks for another tantalizing Birmingham reference there.
So Elizabeth Raynes (my great great aunt ) died in Birmingham, one imagines while staying with her Raynes / Ryall relatives, but is nonetheless buried in Cork.
And if she was 67 in 1891 that's a good match for a birth year of around 1823.
I feel a little more Irish with every post on this thread :)
Paul
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You are welcome.
As I have now given you the date of death for Elizabeth in Birmingham you could get a death cert.
From this you might get some more new information - maybe details of the informant which might be
a family member.
I will try to post the headstone photo here but I have to minimize it and hope it works.
Mary
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This is a photo of Henry Christopher Raynes' headstone. It is quite illegible.
It is located right next to his sister Elizabeth's headstone.
Mary
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Close up of Henry Christopher's headstone but not clear
Mary
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Hi... I've read with great interest the postings about the couple of Raynes generations discussed in this forum and thought you may all like to see the following extracts from Irish newspapers confirming the relationship between John Raynes Esq. and Captain James Raynes murdered onboard the Mary Russell on the 22nd of June 1828, and how Francis Rayanes, also a captain, met his end.
Freeman’s Journal – Monday 24 September 1855
LOSS OF THE NEW CITY OF CORK – By a telegraphic despatch received yesterday, we perceive that the New City of Cork, belonging to the city, was lately lost in Barbados in one of those hurricanes which are such a frequent occurrence in the West Indies. We regret to add that the master, who is also the owner, Mr. Francis Raynes, a native of this city, was unfortunately washed overboard during the hurricane and drowned. Captain Raynes was nephew to the late Captain Raynes, who coming as a passenger from the West Indies in 1828, was murdered with seven or eight of the crew of the Mary Russell, by Captain Stewart, for alleged mutiny, - Cork Reporter.
Cork Examiner – Wednesday 26th September 1855
WRECK OF THE “NEW CITY OF CORK” (From the Barbados Globe of August 27.)
It has become our painful duty to state for the information of our readers “at Home” and in the Sister Colonies, that this Island, since our last issue, has been visited by a very heavy gale of wind, which has been attended with the loss of three vessels and of four valuable lives. The morning of Friday was excessively sultry, and a dead calm prevailed; by twelve o’clock the excellent barometer at the commercial Hall clearly foretold what was about to happen; the wind got up in the afternoon and blew fresh from the South and by West, and from then till one o’clock in the morning of Saturday it continued to increase in violence; at that hour it had become almost a storm – the rain falling in torrents – and an awful sea rolling in from the South-West. Shortly before two the brig New City of Cork, Raynes, master, partly loaded, dragged both anchors and went on shore on the Pier Head. By the exertions (as we learned on our reaching the scene of the disaster) of Captain Kirby of the Peri, Mr. Police Magistrate Clarke and few others, a rope thrown from the Brig and secured on the shore, by which the Mate and all the crew, except the Boatswain, were got safely to land. On the boatswain’s attempting to follow he was washed from his hold, and was instantly overwhelmed by the waves and perished. Captain Raynes, now the last on board, was standing on the counter of his vessel, which was lying broadside on the rocks, when a tremendous sea struck her – broke up in a moment every portion of her, from the foremast aft, and swept him off in the wreck of his much beloved ship; his death was probably instantaneous, for when found the next afternoon, the back of his head was ascertained to be dreadfully fractured. The remains of this much-lamented gentleman – the soul of honour and integrity – one of the most generous hearted of men, and the universal favourite of everyone who knew him –after a Coroner’s inquest had sat on him, were next morning conveyed to their last resting place in the Roman Catholic burying ground, from the Pier Head Stores of Messr. Michael Cavan & Co., followed by the survivors of his crew, and by a large number of sorrowing friends and acquaintances. The boatswain’s remains were discovered the next day and decently interred in St. Mary’s.
The Barque William Large, which was discharging, and the schooner Kohinoor, the property of Charles Leatham, Esq., of Dominica, came on shore about the same time with the ill-fated New City of Cork, but on a less rocky part of the coast. The William Large will, however, prove a total wreck, but it is probable that the Kohinoor may be got off by taking out her masts and ballast. In the latter of these vessels life was also unfortunately lost, a black sailor belonging to this Island having been washed off the deck and instantly drowned, his body was found in the morning.
You can read an account of the Mary Russell murders on the following link:
http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/forced-from-this-world-massacre-on-the-mary-russell/
kind regards,
Michael Raines
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Has anyone found a definite connection between John Raynes Esq and his brother Captain James Raynes, and the Raynes family that lived in Mallow/Charleville and traded in Cork City? John Raynes and Arundel Raynes held a lease with others in Mallow during the early part of the 18th century. Arundel was baptised in Downhead, Somerset 12th May 1668, and married Alicia Salter of Youghal in 1696 (5.4.14 Index to the Marriage License Bonds of the Diocese of Cloyne). He had matriculated from Oxford two years previously (Alumni Oxfordensis Corpus Christi College, Oxford Arundel s.o. EdwardRaynes of Downhead, Som. pleb. matric. 22 March 1693-4 aged 23yrs ) His son John matriculated from Dublin in 1714? Alumni Dublinensis), and Arundel died in 1717 owing Lord Shelborne £500. I have an account from the Busteed papers of his gaming on false dice - very funny ;). I don't know much more about his son John, but could he be the cabinet maker who is buried in Cork 1749? Arundel was living in Ballyhay on the 1st December 1698 (Irish Wills & Plea's); the same townland the line Sir Julius Augustus Robert Raines descends from were living in.
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Here's the account of Arundel Raynes' playing at dice ..... :o
Irish Wills & Pleadings ref: S.O.G. vol 6 p.8 Jephson v. Woods“Irish Wills & Pleadings”(ref: S.O.G. vol6 p.8) Jephson v. Woods contains the following: “ Thomas Batwell of ffortlane als Ballyhalla co. Cork gent. one of the attorneys of the Court of Kings Bench says that on the 23rd of May 1698 at Castlemagner at the house of William Barnes -he kept a town court for the then High Sherriff of the said county where there came into the same ,John Ffoulkes and John Chinnery gent. That after your orator had taken the presentments of thesaid Court and discharged the jury - they, the said Ffoulkes and Chinnery with other companycame into your orators company to drink a glass of aile. After your orator had dranke for some timehe bid his man to bring his horse to the doore. As he sat on horseback to go home the said Ffoulkeand Chinnery took his horse by the bridle and said he should not go away and was prevailed on by them to go with them and one Arundel Raines and George Chinnery, brother to the said John Chinnery and take a hearty glass and as an inducement telling him there was a spark in the housethat had some money and would fain play with them at hazard upon the dice. Your orator wellknowing the said Ffoulke and Chinnery to be common gamesters and as your orator has been informed and play most commonly with false dice. They promised if he lost to them or any one elsethey would repay it. He being somewhat in drink and relying on their fair promises went into thehouse again. After the said Raines had lost some money he applied to your orator for the loan of a guinea which he lent him.... It being almost day John Chinnery went to bed when Ffoulke & yourorator played...... Your orator having left £5 or £6 on the table and a large silver snuff box the said Ffoulke snatched them up saying he had won them and so left the room....... After your orator wasgone to bed the said Ffouke, George Cinnery and Arundel Raines went away. John Chinnery in themorning got up and thinking your orator was asleep bid the landlady tell him he should have all hismoney and box sent home the next day which they have not since done.1st December 1698. “(Thursday)
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Dublin Registry of Deeds 1711
Record number Volume Page Memorial number Year current deed Month current deed Day current deed Current deed type MS or W Family name Forname s Title Residence 1 8 411 3030 1711 March 5 Lease & Release RAINES Arundell 2 8 411 3030 1711 March 5 Lease & Release RAINES John Esq
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Hi all
This is a long running saga with some missing connections especially around the turn of the 19th century, and in the early 18th century. Although the spelling of the name does seem to vary between generations and places, I would have thought that it should have become fairly standardised in whichever form it occurs by the early 1800s. In other words whilst it is common to find Raynes, Raines, Rains in the 18th century they seem to become different families by 1830ish. (Note also that the Somerset family also uses Reynes.) Julius Augustus Robert Raines father was Joseph Robert, and his father was Joseph Lawrence Robert 1752 - 1789 who is my 4x great grandfather, based in Cork City. From there back to John Raines and Arundell is more difficult. The implied connection is the Charleville/ Mallow one, and I think that that connection is fairly safe, albeit that I have not been able to find church or other records to fill in the intervening one or two generations. The John son of Arundell seems to have shuffled off this mortal coil in 1734, and his wife in 1752, having only been married for 3 years (1730). The lines of descent from that source are therefore probably limited to one or two children of that couple. JLR Raines father was John Raynes I believe who may have been the cabinet maker of Cork City who died in 1756. However if he had JLR at around 25-30 he would have a birthdate around 1722-7, if he had JLR at around 20 years old this would fit the John who married in 1730 and died in 1734. There were apparently more Johns which makes it even more confusing, and the following note simply adds to the confusion. Or does it?
[Source: "Gravestone Inscriptions of St Peter, Cork" by R. Henshion. Jnl of Cork Hist. & Arch. Soc Vol xciii No 252 Jan-Dec 1988.]
page 123 note:
"John and Joseph Rains were Timber Merchants in Clarkes Marsh in 1787. The Rains family is widely documented through the 18th Century commencing with John Raynes, Sherriff of Cork in 1694 and proceeding to Henry 1832-77, one time master of the Cork Steamship Coy's 'Dodo' and later Harbour Master of Cork. Among Rains buried in St Peter's are: Jonathon 1746, William 1760, John 1762, John 1767, William Robert 1817. John 14/7/1756 "the Paul Street Cabinet Maker whose death was reported in the Cork Journal the following day."
Do the Registers of St Peters exist?
All the best
Tickle
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Hi,
Unfortunately, the original parish registers for St. Peter’s for the period that would answer a lot of questions for us all, were destroyed during the troubles in 1922, but some transcriptions still survive:
http://www.corkrecords.com/PetersParishRegisters.htm
I pass by the church regularly, and will make a point of taking a walk through the cemetery at the back and see if any of the Rai(y)n(e)s memorials still exist and keep you posted:
http://www.corkrecords.com/StPetersGraveyard.htm
The Churchwarden’s of St. Peter’s also include Joseph Raines in 1783, whilst John Raines was removed out of the parish in 1784:
http://www.corkrecords.com/StPetersChurchWardens.htm
I corresponded with the late David Phillips (he descends from the Raines/Wrixon’s on Ballyhay, Mallow and Cork, and very meticulous in his research and note taking) in the early 1990’s whilst I was living out in West Cork, and brought up the subject of religion amongst the Cork Rai(y)n(e)s’s as it was as relevant then as it is now. If a Protestant settler married a Catholic girl, even if he didn’t convert to Catholicism upon marriage, his children would certainly have been raised as Catholics. Another version of this I’ve heard is that the sons would be raised in the father’s faith, and the daughters in the mothers. Marginal entries often appear in original registers made by the priest to this effect.
It appears that the various Raynes captains and harbour master in Cork City at the start of the 19th century were Catholic. Captain James Raynes spoke Irish, therefore must have been raised in Ireland; his brother John married Teresa Sullivan, 4th daughter of Francis Sullivan decd in 1819 as reported in the Southern Star: Tue 13 Jul 1819 on Monday morning by the Rev. Dean Collins, John Raynes Esq. master of the brigg Hibernia, of Cork, to Theresa, 4th daughter of the late Francis Sullivan of Warren’s Quay Esq.
The Rev. Dean Collin’s was a Catholic Priest very active in supporting the Presentation Convent in Cork and raising funds for school buildings etc.
The point of this observation being that when a Protestant converted to Catholicism upon marriage, they were often disowned and disinherited by their often well-to-do family, and shunned socially. Within a single generation, families went their divergent ways. I have seen this in my maternal Cork ancestry as well.
The Irish Deeds Registry lists for Rains:
http://members.pcug.org.au/~nickred/deeds/search_index.html
John – timber merchant, Cork City, 1778
William – gent, Cork City, 1778
John – gent, Cork City, 1795
Joseph – gent, Charleville, 1771 (Ballyhay is with Charleville)
But for Raynes, and apparently a generation earlier we find:
Joseph Raynes, schoolmaster, Youghal, 1739
Elizabeth Raynes, widow, no place given, 1737
Elizabeth Raynes, widow, no place given, 1742
James Raynes, gent, Youghal, 1760
And finally for Raines
Arundel Raines, no place given, but refers to ploughlands around Mallow, 1711
John Raines, esq, no place given, but refers to ploughlands around Mallow, 1711
Hugh Raines,no place given, but refers to house in Dusncombes Marsh Cork City, 1721
James Raines, servant to John Longfield of Longville House, Mallow, 1741
James Raines, servant to John Longfield of Longville House, Mallow, 1741
I have a 62 page pdf of various notes and extracts for Rai(y)n(e)s I’ve collected from many sources over the past 25 years, including my own extract of Raines from the original Christchurch registers, and newspaper references as well. I’d be happy to email on to anyone interested in hoping that a fresh set of eyes may unravel the riddle a little more.
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Hi again
I am David Phillips cousin! David died in 1997 and I have all his notes and have been trying to piece together the rest of the tree at intervals ever since. I also corresponded with a gent called Michael Raines for a while, and he passed on a lot of information. I think you have confirmed my suspicions that the Raynes of Youghal and the Raines of Cork City are two separate families, with different origins. Whether Arundell is the progenitor of the Raines is, I think, likely because we almost have a direct line of succession, but quite how the Raynes fit in, especially in view of your observation about religious allegiances, is another question. Another interesting sideline to the Raines is their intimate relationships with the Wrixon family who hailed from the Glenfield Ballygiblin Blossomfort Mallow area as well.
All good fun!
Tickle
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my grt grandfather was a David Eaton Raynes who was born in saint john newbrunswick Canada his mother was a Margaret Morrow born in Ireland abt 1822 her husband was a John Raynes my grt grt grandfather born as it states on his head stone in st john nb born in 1822 a native of county cork Ireland this is are brick wall as no info at all on are john Raynes all i have is he married Margaret in Saint John nb in 1841 any help would be nice. thanks
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Hi,
Unfortunately, the original parish registers for St. Peter’s for the period that would answer a lot of questions for us all, were destroyed during the troubles in 1922, but some transcriptions still survive:
http://www.corkrecords.com/PetersParishRegisters.htm
I pass by the church regularly, and will make a point of taking a walk through the cemetery at the back and see if any of the Rai(y)n(e)s memorials still exist and keep you posted:
http://www.corkrecords.com/StPetersGraveyard.htm
The Churchwarden’s of St. Peter’s also include Joseph Raines in 1783, whilst John Raines was removed out of the parish in 1784:
http://www.corkrecords.com/StPetersChurchWardens.htm
I corresponded with the late David Phillips (he descends from the Raines/Wrixon’s on Ballyhay, Mallow and Cork, and very meticulous in his research and note taking) in the early 1990’s whilst I was living out in West Cork, and brought up the subject of religion amongst the Cork Rai(y)n(e)s’s as it was as relevant then as it is now. If a Protestant settler married a Catholic girl, even if he didn’t convert to Catholicism upon marriage, his children would certainly have been raised as Catholics. Another version of this I’ve heard is that the sons would be raised in the father’s faith, and the daughters in the mothers. Marginal entries often appear in original registers made by the priest to this effect.
It appears that the various Raynes captains and harbour master in Cork City at the start of the 19th century were Catholic. Captain James Raynes spoke Irish, therefore must have been raised in Ireland; his brother John married Teresa Sullivan, 4th daughter of Francis Sullivan decd in 1819 as reported in the Southern Star: Tue 13 Jul 1819 on Monday morning by the Rev. Dean Collins, John Raynes Esq. master of the brigg Hibernia, of Cork, to Theresa, 4th daughter of the late Francis Sullivan of Warren’s Quay Esq.
The Rev. Dean Collin’s was a Catholic Priest very active in supporting the Presentation Convent in Cork and raising funds for school buildings etc.
The point of this observation being that when a Protestant converted to Catholicism upon marriage, they were often disowned and disinherited by their often well-to-do family, and shunned socially. Within a single generation, families went their divergent ways. I have seen this in my maternal Cork ancestry as well.
The Irish Deeds Registry lists for Rains:
http://members.pcug.org.au/~nickred/deeds/search_index.html
John – timber merchant, Cork City, 1778
William – gent, Cork City, 1778
John – gent, Cork City, 1795
Joseph – gent, Charleville, 1771 (Ballyhay is with Charleville)
But for Raynes, and apparently a generation earlier we find:
Joseph Raynes, schoolmaster, Youghal, 1739
Elizabeth Raynes, widow, no place given, 1737
Elizabeth Raynes, widow, no place given, 1742
James Raynes, gent, Youghal, 1760
And finally for Raines
Arundel Raines, no place given, but refers to ploughlands around Mallow, 1711
John Raines, esq, no place given, but refers to ploughlands around Mallow, 1711
Hugh Raines,no place given, but refers to house in Dusncombes Marsh Cork City, 1721
James Raines, servant to John Longfield of Longville House, Mallow, 1741
James Raines, servant to John Longfield of Longville House, Mallow, 1741
I have a 62 page pdf of various notes and extracts for Rai(y)n(e)s I’ve collected from many sources over the past 25 years, including my own extract of Raines from the original Christchurch registers, and newspaper references as well. I’d be happy to email on to anyone interested in hoping that a fresh set of eyes may unravel the riddle a little more.
Hi. I am new to this site. I recently discovered I am descended from a Mary Raynes (married Jeremiah Hurley) daughter of Andrew Raynes (born 1784) from Cork.
Do you have any information about these people? Thanks.
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i am looking for some information on the Raynes of Croom, Limerick. They lived there up to the late 1800's.
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See the Grant of Probate for Harriett Sullivan spinster who died 17th March 1869 which suggests that Raines/Raynes mother is possibly a Sullivan
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/wr/details.jsp?id=IRE/ORIG/WILL/REG/1648
slightly different address
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014888/005014888_00571.pdf
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01qki/
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Thank you! That is brilliant. It confirms some of the information I already had and adds to it. It has also thrown up a new niece who I now need to work out who she 'belongs' to!