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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: Jalkatz on Saturday 20 May 06 13:56 BST (UK)
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Does anyone know of a link for an association, message board (anything!) for tracing old comrades?
My uncle, John Edwin Simpson, was shot down Apr 1943 in France. Was pow Stalag 4B.
After release, continued flying from RAF Waddington, then involved in mid-air collision over Averham (Lincs) in Sept 1949 (Operation Bulldog). All crew were killed. It was, apparently, mistake by ground control; resulted in court marshall.
Can't find anything relevant on the RAF Waddington site.
Grateful for any help or advice.
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http://website.lineone.net/~redgoose/history.htm
Try here
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Hi Jalkatz
If you google Lincolnshire Air bases. That will come up with lots of sites about different sqaudrons flying from the air bases
ricky
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Hi Jalkatz and Welcome to RootsChat ! :)
Have you tried this site already ? seems they have a message board !!
http://www.wartimememories.co.uk/pow/stalag4b.html
Annie :) :)
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Thanks for you suggestions! Liverpool annie, I think yours might be the site where I'm in touch with someone. However, he advised me to contact the base's website - but there doesn't seem to be a forum there - unlike most of the others! Getting-on-a-bit (love the name!) I've spent a couple of hours on the site you suggested and some of the links seem to be useful. I've found a forum through it, but it's moderated and I haven't been accepted yet but I'm hopeful with that one. Thanks for your suggestion too, Ricky, but I've been round those - bit miffed that there's no mention there at all, given that that's where he was killed.
Thanks again,
Jackie
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Don't know if you've been here already Jackie - but the Red Cross has information about POW's !!
http://www.redcross.org.uk//standard.asp?id=2627&cachefixer=
Annie :)
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Annie, I sort-of half-thought about them today because they sent clothing to him on behalf of his family... didn't realise they'd have info though... will give it a try.
Jackie
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hi Jalk
don't know if it is of any help but you might want to have a look at these two sites,
www.worldwar2exraf.co.uk
www.raf.mod.uk/info/faqs
old rowley
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Thanks Rowley (and hello again!) :) I'll have a look... should have done this a fortnight ago, might not have swam so many useless circles then!
Best wishes,
Jackie
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thats ok Jalk, we all swim in circles at times, with me it is usually doing the backstroke as I never seem to be going in the right direction ;D
old rowley
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Hi Jalkatz,
I don't know if this is any use to you, but my Father witnessed the accident from a Lincoln bomber from 214 Sqn situated about two miles behind.
He seems to remember that the debris was scattered through the streets of Newark. It might therefore be an idea to search the local papers of that area for more information.
All aircraft were returned directly after the accident.
My Father cannot remember much more but doubts whether it was a ground control error because of the nature of the exercise.
Regards
Rob
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Hi Rob, please thank your dad for me. I've got the original newspaper cutting in front of me and it says that the crash happened over Averham (I've never heard of it so don't know how far from Newark). But it goes into a lot of detail about Newark - the mock attack was to be at Newark, where "the bombers were trying to obliterate Staythorpe power station" - and this was 1/2 mile from the crash. It includes accounts from witnesses in Newark - so I guess your dad's memory is of this crash.
Apparently, ground control's involvement was that it sent one plane up as another was coming in to land - it was thick fog that night, according to the reports that Rowley found for me, which perhaps explains the mistake.
I heard about the court marshall only last week so I don't have any more details about that but the person who told me about it was correct in every other detail, right down to date and time, so I'm assuming it's correct for now.
Thank you *very* much for your post.
Jackie
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Hi,
Try the General Queries message borad at:
www.rafcommands.com
You should get furhter info from there. Also I would think that there is a lliberation report for you relative which would be at the National Archives at Kew. It is possible that one of the researchers that use the RAF Commands site may have a copy/further info on file.
Regards,
Ann Sadler
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Jalkatz,
here's some information your uncle being shot down, escaping and being recaptured in 1943.
http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/bomber.php?id=1178
Thudnut
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Try the General Queries message borad at:
www.rafcommands.com
Hi Ann,
Thank you for that link. I've posted a message over there and will see what comes of it.
Many thanks,
Jackie
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Hi Thudnut,
How on earth did you find that information???
Thank you so much - especially your timing. I'm going to visit his brother next weekend and will take a printout of that page with me.
Best wishes,
Jackie
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I like a challenge - especially RAF ones!
Timing was pure luck, but glad to be able to help.
I'm sorry but I can't find anything on the 1949 crash at the moment - but I'll keep looking. Do you have any further information (such as aircraft type, Squadron - was he still on 51 Sqn?, what did his aircraft collide with?).
It may also be worth your while checking the old RAF Courts Martial records. I believe that there's a CD out there sonewhere with them all on.
Thudders
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Hi Jackie,
You have a few replies already. Hope that they will be of some use.
Regards,
Ann
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I have to thank you again, Ann, for that link. I posted a message and received very good information. A man is actually writing a book on the Pilsen raid (where my uncle was taken pow) and has a website about it.
Thudders - apparently, the final crash in operation Bulldog, was between two Avro Lincoln MKB2s of 57 Squadron and 61 Squadron. The only information I have is; 'the two aircraft collided killing both crews. The cause of the accident was not determined but could have been due to minor errors in timing, a convergence of tracks on approach to the target or inadequate lookout by the gunners...'
However, family said it was caused by ground control who brought one in to land and sent another up at the same time (heavy fog). The wings clipped.
Best wishes,
Jackie
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Thudders,
I've got the serial numbers of the 'planes. RE374 or 57 Squadron and RF407 of 61 Squadron. My uncle was signaller on the RF407. It was 26 Sept 1949. Wouldn't that '61 Squadron' be a typo by the person who sent me the information?
Best wishes,
Jackie
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Hi Jalkatz,
I have found a book that may contain the details you are looking for. It can be found at East Anglia Books: http://www.eastangliabooks.com/new_page_9.htm Scroll down to the book reference 061141 600 page book for £19.95
Just to confuse matters, it could, indeed, be 61 Squadron as they converted to Lincolns in May 1946. 51 Squadron were flying Halifaxes at the time of the crash. 57 Squadron were also flying Lincolns.
My guess would be one aircraft from 57 Sqn and one from 61 Sqn, so your source would be correct.
I'll keep digging.
Thudders
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I woke this morning to an Inbox with *eleven* scans of original documents of the Pilsen raid, relating to my uncle and crew, including the first-hand statements of two crewmen who escaped back to England. It just shows the power of this site, when a months-old topic can be brought back to life. Ann, thank you for not thinking that my original post was 'too old to bother with'!
Jackie
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Hi Jacke,
Glad you got some info, however it's virtually a dead cert, that someone that uses the RAF Commands site will have the information. There is an awful lot of knowledge and information available from the people that use that site. I tend to have a go through some of the genealogical sites on occasions and direct people to the RAF Commands site as I know all the researchers that use there are more than happy to provide any information they have freely with others.
All the best,
Ann
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Does anyone know of a link for an association, message board (anything!) for tracing old comrades?
My uncle, John Edwin Simpson, was shot down Apr 1943 in France. Was pow Stalag 4B.
After release, continued flying from RAF Waddington, then involved in mid-air collision over Averham (Lincs) in Sept 1949 (Operation Bulldog). All crew were killed. It was, apparently, mistake by ground control; resulted in court marshall.
Can't find anything relevant on the RAF Waddington site.
Grateful for any help or advice.
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Hi Jackie
My dad, Jack Arthur Blackman (61 Squadron), took me to the war cemetery at Waddington in the early 60s and showed me the graves of his fellow crew who died in a crash.
From my research the crash was on 26 September 1949 on Operation Bulldog, a training mission, and involved Lincoln RF407 of 61 Squadron and Lincoln RE374 of 57 Squadron which collided over Staythorpe Newark.
His old friend Mitch (Albert Henry James Mitchell), who was with his previous crew (RF513), was killed in that crash, as was John Edwin Conway Simpson.
My dad said he was ill on that day and could not fly… he was the wireless op, as was your uncle John Simpson. I was taken aback when I realised you were John's niece. I was unsure whether to reply but felt I should share.
I don’t know if you will see this post so long after your original.
Best wishes
Clive Blackman