RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: oldcrone on Thursday 08 June 06 22:53 BST (UK)
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I read somewhere recently (probably in one of the links given on this board) that hawkers travelled by horse and pedlars by foot.
Does anyone know whether this is corroborated anywhere (and I assume that this refers to hawkers/pedlars in the ?19th century)?
I have wondered how my Pannells, Newlands and Proudleys moved around - whether by horse, cart, on foot, etc (my Pannells are mostly listed as hawkers). I'm also interested in where they lived - on some of the later 19th century censuses, my Pannells are living in almshouses, but at earlier times seem to be living in ?fields. Wondered if they might be in tents or barns, but if they had horses (ie if the hawker definition was true), would this tend to an assumption that they were in horse-drawn caravans or carts?
Clara
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Hi Clara
If your ancestors weren't living in houses, this is often signified on the census returns ie. in 1861 there were special pages at the back of the enumerators books to list "list of persons not in houses" see
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/hitch/gendocs/census2.html
Sometimes you may see "living in the lanes" "slept in shed" "van" caravan" tent" etc.. Although not always, it is, more often than not, clear when they are not in houses if you can compare with neighbouring families.
The Pedlar's act of 1871 (without transport) is still in force http://www.kent.police.uk/About%20Kent%20Police/Policy%20Documents/m/m44.html - pedlar's could have barrows but they wouldn't be horse-drawn and they were licensed by the local police force.
The 1888 hawker's act defined a hawker as "with transport" and required them to be registered with the local council ie. licensed hawker.
Casalguidi
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Thanks, Casalguidi, this explains quite a bit - my Pannells always seem to be at the 'end' of the enumerator's pages - I always thought it was at the end of the village!
Will have to look into this further..... ;)
Thanks for the links
Clara
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My mother's cousin's wife was a hawker in the Barrows in Glasgow, and raised her family on the procedings from this trade.
The family all did well in the entertainment world.
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Many many years ago when I was a young copper in London, I am sure that hawkers traded with by horse and pedlars were on foot. Look up Pedlars Act 1871 and Hawkers Act 1888 and I hope your chair is nice and comfy !!!!!!
Good luck Paul
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I have a hawker in 1851. Would this likely have had the same definition back then?
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Hi Loo
I'm not sure that the meaning of the words hawker and pedlar have changed at all but you might need to keep an open mind about that definition in the 1851 census ie. did your ancestor know the difference (if there was one), did the enumerator, church official or registrar know the difference etc.? I certainly didn't know the difference until I started researching my family history.
Perhaps compare the occupation to that which you have found on other documents - often travelling people were recorded by the "occupation" which they were carrying out at that exact time ie. fruit picker, hop picker etc. at the relevant time of year or Traveller, Gypsy etc. rather than an exact occupation.
Board of Commissioners of Hawkers, Pedlars, and Petty Chapmen
Licences on hawkers and pedlars were first instituted in 1697 for a year to help pay the interest on the debt incurred on the transport services during the Irish campaign. Initially, they were managed under the control of the Board of Transportation but on their renewal in 1698 the Treasury appointed a new Board of Commissioners of Hawkers, Pedlars and Petty Chapmen. The duties were renewed for varying periods until 1716 when they were made permanent. In 1810 the Hawkers and Pedlars' Board was abolished and its work taken over by the Board of Hackney Coach Commissioners.
In 1832 licensing work passed to the Board of Stamps and the duties were successively administered by the Board of Stamps and Taxes in 1833 and the Board of Inland Revenue in 1849. In 1864 the stamp duties on hawkers and pedlars' licences were converted to excise licence duties and in 1870 these duties ceased to be levied on licences to hawkers on foot. Such traders were subsequently required to take out a certificate from the police under the Pedlars' Act 1870. The licence duties on other hawkers (e.g. those travelling with a horse) remained in force, collection having passed to the county councils under the Local Government Act of 1888. Administrative responsibility passed from the Board of Customs and Excise to the local authorities in 1950 following the Finance Act 1949. Hawkers' licences were finally abolished under the Local Government Act 1966.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Casalguidi
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That's certainly a thorough explanation; thank you!
I am not positive the fellow in question is a rellie, but it's possible, so I'm keeping my eyes open for clues. (This was from a census.)
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My gt grandfather was described as a "pedlar" on my Gt grandmother's death certificate in 1919. I've never really known exactly what that meant. I get an image of a street seller but they weren't itinerant. I do know the family came from Ireland a generation before and the men were always labourers before this date
Does anyone know what sort of thing pedlars sold and where they bought their wares from?
Jillie
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Hi Jille,
My ggreatgrandfather(John) and his father were named on on John's marriage certificate as Higglers. When I looked this up it was described as hagglers/pedlars. Some of the professions they had were: selling fruit, and coal carrier, which leads me to draw the conclusion that they had a cart. I always got the impression that they were people that repairs pots and pans and maybe furniture. The definition of pedlar is: a person who peddles, a hawker and has been changed from the word pedder - the root of the word is: pedde - basket (of unknown origin). So it is obviously someone who sells things but whether on foot or from a cart isn't specified.
Don't know if this helps or confuses things.
Angela
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For Clara . Old crone
Your travelling Pannells!
Ihave been looking for Pannels who were travellers for a while now as i think 2 were at my great
grandads funeral Berrow 1907 Henry Orchard he died at the age of 55 Please still be out there!
Best wishes
Maggie
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Hi,
My lot changed down the censuses, starting off in 1871 as Travelling Gypsies" and living in tents to becoming Licensed Hawkers by 1891 and living Carvans or Vans. This change in description was presumably due to the new laws. They were also "Dealers in Horses" which also implies that they had transport
One lot who were associated with brush makers lived in a 'Brush Van on the road' again implying transport.
Another lady subject of a court case between two different Guardians of the Poor areas (Axminster and Plymouth) which then went to appeal in the House of Lords was described by the Judge as 'Living about in Tents' in 1899.
I think a lot of it was purely subjective on the part of the person making the description.