RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Jenny_Murphy on Saturday 10 June 06 01:18 BST (UK)
-
Hi,
i am trying to find information on James Silver.
James married Emily Middleton Middlecoat in Hackney 1842.
Had a son Frederick theodore in Stepheny 1853. Anyone that can help with further information will be appreciated.
Cheers
Jenny :)
-
1851
James Silver 24 St.Dunstant Middlesex Head Acct to a Goldsmith
Emily Silver 26 Lambeth surrey Wife
Jessy Silver 15 St.Pancras jersey Ch.Isles Dau
Fanny Silver 13 Hackney #
William Silver 11 Bleakforan st Surrey Son
Emely Silver 9 Holborn Dau
James Silver 8 hemmeton Son
Marian Silver 4 st.Pancras Surrey Dau
Samuel Silver 3 Lunsmousd Son
Ellen Silver 9mths whitechapel Dau
18 Barnsley Street
HO107/1540 Folio 425 Page 53 Bethnal Green
-
Do we need a recount?
Does it really give the ages in 1851 of the parents as 24 & 26 with children aged 15, 13, 11 plus 4 others? and James 24 is an accountant (who for Enron ;D)
You haven't given too much away so we are guessing somewhat!
Who is Emily Middleton's father? is he a pencil maker?
Who is James Silver's father? and occupation?
Any witnesses of interest for the marriage?
Is Frederick Silver (born 1853 Stepney, Middlesex) seen in 1871 at Penge, Surrey?
with Mother ELLEN ROBERTS aged 53, a widow born DUNSTABLE, BEDS
1863
ELLEN SILVER married RICHARD NATHANIEL ROBERTS at Camberwell, Surrey
If the above is true? EMILY who married JAMES in 1842 is not the mother of
FREDERICK
1841
55 BERNERS STREET, ST MARYLEBONE, MIDDLESEX
JOHN MIDDLETON 40 PENCIL M YES (BORN IN COUNTY ie Middlesex)
EMMA " 38 " "
EMILY " 17 " "
JOHN " 15 " "
ANN " 13 "
LOUISA " 11 "
MARY " 8 "
GEORGE " 5 "
HENRY " 1 "
+
LUCIEN BUDELLE? 35 T FRENCH F (FOREIGN PARTS)
and his wife 25 and 2 year old daughter
+ 4 female servants
--------------------------
It appears that SAMUEL SILVER as seen aged 3 in 1851 is this one in 1871
1871
10 JUBILEE STREET, M.E.O.T (MILE END OLD TOWN) MIDDLESEX
SAMUEL SILVER LODGER 22 HAIRDRESSER STRATFORD, ESSEX
MARY " WIFE 23 POPLAR, MIDDLESEX
MARY ANN " DAUR 1 MILE END, MIDDLESEX
------------------------
Regards
Bryant
-
Hi,
Actual census looks to me like James is 74 and Emily 36.Someone else might see it differently.??
Regards
Joburg
-
Joburg
Is the birth places any clearer on your copy of the 1851 ie
Bleakfor an st Surrey......???.......BRIXTON?
Hemmeton....................HOXTON?
Lunsmousd...................LIMEHOUSE?
Bryant
-
I've had a quick look Bryant and this is what I think they should be ...
James - Middlesex St Dunstan City of London
Emily - Surrey Lambeth
Jessy - Jersey St Saviours
Fanny - Middlesex Barking
William - Surrey Blackfriars ?
Emily - Middlesex Holborn
James - Middlesex Homerton
Marian - Surrey St Saviours
Samuel - Middlesex Limehouse
Eliza - Middlesex Whitechapel
Some of them are quite hard to read though.
Joburg - yes the ages are hard to read, Emily 36 and James ?4.
Regards
Biker
-
Thankyou Biker
Having looked at the choice of female Middlecoat's around in 1841 Middx/Surrey this young lady would be my candidate for Emily
1841
BROWNS LANE, CHRISTCHURCH, TOWER HAMLETS, MIDDLESEX
//
MARIA HOLMES 19 YES
MARIAN MIDDLECOTT 24 NO
ANN CUE? 27 F.S NO
JOHN GREGORY 28 M.S YES
//
*Could the marriage reference actually state EMILY MARIAN MIDDLECOAT and not Emily Middleton Middlecoat?
Marian which is an infrequent name for this period is used for one of the children! and this lady would be of the right age!
We need Jenny to return to tell us what she knows?
Bryant
-
Hi,
Thankyou for the information, Only other info i have is Death certificate of Frederick (GGrandFather)in Australia 1931 Aged 78 Father James Jeweler mother Emily late Barber formally Middleton. The will of my grand father has a copy of the will of Marian Elizabeth James usually knows as Rose James in which she mentions brother Samuel, Frederick,James Albert etc.. In 1932 Marian", address was Ty Coed Stourwood Rd Bournmouth in county oh Hants. This lady seemed to be quite wealthy and left it to friends, family, servants. She just seems so nice that i feel i would really like to know as much about her that i can. Hope I haven't waffled on to much :)
-
Hello Jenny
Probably plenty of us being busy getting nowhere on this one........ time to refresh
1/ James Silver married Emily Middleton Middlecoat in 1842 within the district of Hackney
(you can see the reference if you go to freebmd and select IMAGES and work your way through, the page is 1842m1-m-0193......this has been transposed from the original and it certainly doesn't look like its been done in recent times!)
you are going to need that cert as it hopefully contains information that will assist the cause..........Hopefully it will be £7-00 well spent
2/ Frederick Theodore Silver born 1853 within the Stepney district, have you got that certificate? and that being how you know who the mother is and father's name and occupation?
3/ James has been married before.............that's what the info on him suggests, but who to and when did she die?
4/ Jessie was born in St Saviours, Jersey............... hopefully you can find out when and to whom if you visit the Jersey Library www.familia.org.uk/services/ci/jersey.html they hold the Church records of St Saviours for the period 1540 to 1975..............possible fee involved but contact them first.........it could be a freebee?
5/ Emely (Emily) Silver as seen aged 9 in the census of 1851 appears to have been born in the September qtr of 1841 within the district of St Pancras as ELIZA EMILY SILVER..............as their are no other recognisable candidates that cert may well reveal who the mother is "from the first marriage" as might the Jersey Parish records.................but even more, it should reveal where they was living in the census of 1841
6/ Explain the Emily late Barber formerly Middleton............ ??? including dates
Have fun
Bryant
-
Interesting change of occupation...... ???
If this is Maria Eliz Silver in 1871/1881? their is a possibility that James and family are in Jersey in 1841............I can't see Jersey in 1841 it appears however that many can.................
1867
possible marriage 1867 Bethnal Green......... Maria Silver married ?
1871
luckington road, sherston magna, wiltshire
THOMAS JAMES head 28 veterinary surgeon Ashton? Keynes
MARIA ELIZ " wife 25 Jersey, St Hellier?
MARIAH E A BARY JAMES daur 18 MONTH Ashton? Keynes
---------------------
1881
7 Ludlow St, Penarth, Glamorgan, Wales
THOMAS JAMES Head 37 GARDENER Read, Berkshire
MARIA " Wife 35 St Helier, Jersey, Channel Islands
Maria E. " Daur 11 SCHOLAR Kingston, Surrey
Blanch " " 9 " " "
Chateau Brard " Son 5 " Risca, Monmouth
Barry " " 3 " Penarth, Glamorgan, Wales
Kate L. " Daur 1 " "
-----------------------
Bryant
-
Hi Jenny,
Sorry I have taken so long to answer this, but I only joined a few days ago! Hope you are still around! This is very interesting because Eliza Emily is my husband's gt grandmother. Please bear in mind that I am still researching this family tree, so this information is incomplete. Since it a difficult family to trace I am very fortunate to be in contact with a PhD student who is also researching this intriguing family.
Eliza Emily (1841 - 1901) was an actress who married a travelling comedian called Frederick Lausanne O'Leary (who used the surname Fredericks). Lausanne came from a family of travelling actors who originated in Ireland.
The elder Emily (born 1815) is her mother, but Silver is not her father.....more about Silver later. Gt gt grandmother Emily had a (well documented) affair with an actor called Charles C Dillon who was married to a Clarissa Conquest (I feel really sorry for her) and as far as I am aware they had three children: we know for certain that two of the three were Emily & William, and it looks like the third might be James (although it's odd that he has the same Christian name as Silver).
William changed his name to Charles Dillon (the same name as his father) and was also an actor. If you look at The Theatre Royal Stratford website (that Charles Dillon Jnr owned before it was sold to Frederick Lausanne's brother Albert), or Charles C Dillon on Wikipedia, you will find more info on this story. (Please note that the Theatre Royal website is full of errors - have been meaning to get in touch with them because lots of the history makes no sense.)
The theatre later passed to my hubby's late grandfather, who also married an actress (deceased). In fact apart from Silver, everybody I have mentioned so far has been in a theatrical profession and unfortunately used more than one name.....not an easy family to trace. They married into other theatrical families including the family who at the time were the biggest theatre owners in the UK.
Emily and Fred had a number of children - I can give you their names if you are interested - in the birth record she gives her name as "O'Leary formerly Middleton" or "O'Leary formerly Silver" which suggests to me that her birth name must have been "Middleton" which was changed to "Silver" when her mother married Silver, so she used either of them as her former name. We don't have her birth cert yet, but if you are interested I can pass the info to you when I buy it. We do have a number of birth, marriage and death certs that might be of interest to you.
James Silver is a complete and utter mystery to us. By the way I read his profession as "assistant to goldsmith", which makes sense since the family were all artists of one kind or another. Don't forget that he is not related to my hubby so I have not found out much about him yet. What is strange is that my hubby has fairly dark skin for an Englishman, and was always told that it's because his ancestor was a D'Silva from Portugal who changed his name to Silver!!! Since he is not even a descendent of Silver this is not possible. Anyway the dark complexion is inherited from the other side of his family! What nonsense families spout......on the other hand Silver's name could have been d'Silva or Desliva, which might be why he seems to have disappeared into thin air!
I could go on and on, so I had better mention Marian who was known as Rose James. There is so much "stuff" in my head that I am struggling to remember who's who. She is supposed to be the half (?) sister of Eliza Emily, and probably the daughter of Emily and Silver, but since I wasn't there at the time, it's not possible to be certain!! A previous researcher "discovered" that she (Rose) married Albert (Lausanne's brother) after the death of his first wife, and my sister in law still believes it to be true, but since I can find no record of a marriage, or of them having lived together, and he did not provide for her in his will (we have a copy) I have dismissed it as fantasy. Actually I think I know how he came to that conclusion, but that is another story!
So if you are still interested I can tell you what we know about Marian / Rose, or find out what you need to know about this family.
As for Frederick Theodore, I had not finished looking for Emily's children and did not know he existed. It would be good to learn something about him please, after all he is my hubby's gt grandmother's brother or half brother. Do you know who the father was? What makes you think it was Silver?!! Do you know how many children there were in total? Are you sure that the Frederick from Stepney is the right Frederick? Also it would be lovely to learn more about Rose / Marian.
Purely coincidentally I used to live in Stepney so I know it very will indeed!
If you read this please can you get in touch? I know this is very complicated!
Thank you.
-
Hi
According to her profile Jenny was last on Rootschat in June 2008 so may not see your post on this topic. After three posts on Rootschat you can send and receive personal messages.
http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
If Jenny has not turned off her notifications or changed her email address - a personal message sends a notification to her known email address to alert her.
Regards
Valda
co-moderator London and Middlesex
-
Thank you so much....I have no idea what I am doing. I am new to genealogy and useless at using a computer / the internet! I will email privately when I can think of something else to contribute to the forum! It is such an interesting story that I hoped to tell Jenny, and find out more about Marian / Rose from our family.
-
Hi i am very interested in any information that you have on Emily and her family. Yes my uncle Harold also told us there was a name change from D'Silva but as yet i have not been able to locate it as i am only just getting back into the family history after a break from it. The information i have on Frederick Theodore is as follows.
Born Mar 1853 Stepeny London England, died 23 August 1931 in Alexandria NSW occupation Undertaker, am not sure when he arrived in Australia yet. He married Christiana Pinney in 1888, born abt 1863 Lutton England died 1901 in Balmain NSW Christiana had 2 childred before she married Lucy Pinny born abt 1879 died 1962 and Robert H pinney born 1881 died 1882. Frederick and Christiana had 6 children together they were as follows
Frederick Theodore Silver born 1884 died 15 Jan 1950 in Mascot NSW
Rosina Emily Silver born 1886 died 8 Aug 1933
William H Silver born 1888 died 1943
Joseph Amos Silver (My grandfather) born 1889 in Waterloo NSW died 2 Jan 1942 in Royal Northshore Hospital NSW
Lizzie Silver born 1891 died 1893
George Samuel Silver born 1895 died 1954 in Redfurn NSW
Frederick remarried Mary E Bryant in 1901
-
Hi, anyone out there still researching the Silver/O'Leary/Fredericks family? I have a theory on the identity of the mysterious James Silver, first husband of Emily Middleton Middlecoat, whose daughter Eliza Emily (usually Emily) married into the Fredericks family. I am putting together a Fredericks family tree on behalf of a friend for the Drury Lane Theatrical Archive. I see from the attached messages that family members were involved on Rootschat some time ago, and would love to be in contact with them.
Thanks, and happy researching!
-
Hi yes I am still researching the silver family and very interested in any information you may have
Thanks