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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: sammidav on Saturday 17 June 06 12:38 BST (UK)
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Hi I have just been searching the parish records for Peter Smith (1805) and Helen Smith (1811-1815 variously) from Kelton, Dumfries on Scotlands' People and some of the free searches. I looked at the lists of what was available on Scotlands' People and it seemed fairly complete - but have found very few Smiths from this time. Kelton was also listed under Kircudbright - does that means there are 2? Does anyone know if there are 2 Keltons and where does Kelton, Dumfries correspond to today as I can't find it on a map?
I know they later moved to Liverpool and the census lists them both as born Dumfries, Kelton, Scotland as my Grandma remembered and started a long line of Shipsmiths. I wondered if Kelton is near the sea - I am having trouble finding it on a map. Would there have been ship smiths / ship building industry near there?
Feeling like I have come to a standstill as soon as I have started on my Scottish ancestors! Any help gratefully appreciated!!! Sorry for so many questions :)
Thanks in advance,
Samantha
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Hi Samantha
Kelton appears to be above Glencaple on the River Dee ** in Dumfries and Galloway:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ko/
Googling produces lots of references, including pics of an old bridge. The river looks navigable at that point.
http://www.rls.org.uk/database/record.php?usi=000-000-001-155-L
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
** I take that back, I think it is the Nith!
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Kelton is and as far as I know always been in Kirkcudbright. See
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/KKD/kkdpmap.htm
I'll have a look for some more info for you. I have MIs and various other sources.
Gadget
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Reference to ship building at Kelton here:
http://www.dalbeattie.info/history/sailing.htm
A ;)
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A little bit more info while I'm checking:
From the MI booklet produced by D & G FHS:
'The three medieval parishes of Lochelletun, Galston and Kirkcormac were united in 1567-1615, with the parish church established at Kelton, the most notherly of the three which was in the most fertile part...........after the level of the loch was lowered in 1765 the estate of Carlinwark became populousat at Causewayend a town grew. In 1792 the owner, William Douglas of Galston, made the town a burgh of barony called Castle Douglas'
Gadget
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Kelton is and as far as I know always been in Kirkcudbright. See
To save confusion: Kirkudbright is now administratively part of Dumfries & Galloway - so we are not contradicting one another! :)
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No - I didn't mean to imply a contradiction AR. I think we both posted within 30 secs of each other ;)
It was Samantha's query about it being in Dumfries/shire that I was replying to.
To clarify things even more - the 'shire' of Kirkcudbright is properly referred to as the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright never KKDshire. A body could be hung for less :o ;D :o (Hint to RC Board ;) )
Getting back to my searches. The only Smiths that I've found in Kelton MIs were living Castle Douglas but no Peter or Helen.
Gadget :)
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From: Pigot's Directory, 1837
Commonly called a Stewartry, but in reality and to all intents and purposes a sheriffdom or shire, lies in the south of Scotland, and forms the eastern and by far the most extensive portion of the ancient district of Galloway.
What's good enough for Pigots is good enough for RC ;D
Note 2nd thread (not merged as it would be confusing):
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,163838.0.html
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Another link which gives all the parishes and more is:
http://www.dgfhs.org.uk/dgfhs/prshs/prsh-ndx.htm
The D & G FHS have a wide range of publications, a newsletter and look up service for members. I've found it invaluable i my research.
Gadget
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Hi All,
Thanks for the information and pointing out the two Keltons!
I think I now have it straight in my head - using the ship building link- and I think it in in Dumfriesshire and not Kircudbright.
'New ships were continually being built at the villages of Glencaple and Kelton on the Nith, and at Palnackie and Kippford on the Urr. The hulls only were completed at these places in some cases, and I believe that vessels were masted and rigged at Irvine, in Ayrshire, quite frequently, after being towed round the coast.
In addition to those mentioned above, some fine schooners were built in the river at the Kelton Yard and at the extensive premises of Messrs G. and R. Thompson, of Glencaple.'
There seems to be a parish of Kelton (Kelton Hill/Rhonehouse) near Castle Douglas which is in Kircudbright
and a second village of kelton where the ships are made which is down river from Dumfries. I am therefore convinced that it is the Dumfries lcoation I am looking for.
This seems to be opposite to the New Abbey Parish and Troqueer parish of http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/KKD/kkdpmap.htm
and possibly in either Dumfires parish or Caerlaverock parish
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/DFS/parish_map.html
I may need a better map to figure out the specific parish!
Please move this back to Dumfriesshire!
Thanks,
Samantha
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Hmmm I'm still not convinced there are 2 Keltons. (I am now! ;D)
I'm quite at home with the Dumfriesshire parishes and I know the Dumfries/Troqueer boundary can be a pain so I'm leaving this in Kirkcudbright at the moment but I will search fro maps as well. (Shows you what I know! ;D )
Pam
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I've checked out www.old-map.co.uk and there are 2 hits one for Kelton DFS and one for Kelton KKD. The DFS one is just north of "North Boreland" the Kelton still in existance today linked by Arranroots if you zoom in to 25000:1 is north of a "Boreland" so I think they are the same place.
The question - is it Dumfriesshire or Kirkcudbright - it is right on the border!
Well Glencaple is in Caerlaverock...
Back to the map!
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When they said Kelton, Dumfries they were probably refering to the place you've found Pam rather than the parish - but will we ever know - If we could find what Old Parish the DFS one is in and search on that one ???
Gadget ::)
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Kelton, a village on the mutual border of Dumfries and Caerlaverock parishes, Dumfriesshire, on the left bank of the Nith, 3½ miles SSE of Dumfries. It is an out-port of Dumfries for vessels unable to go further up the river; and it has carried on a small amount of shipbuilding.
So I'm moving back to Dumfriesshire...
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I'm starting to feel sea sick - did you get which parish?
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DUMFRIES, a parish on the south-west border of Dumfries-shire. It contains the royal burgh of Dumfries, the villages of Georgeton, Gaston, Locharbriggs, and Lochthorn, and part of the village of Kelton. It is bounded on the west by Kirkcudbrightshire, and on other sides by the parishes of Holywood, Kirkmahoe, Tinwald, Torthorwald, and Caerlaverock." from the Imperial Gazetteer of Scotland, edited by John Marius Wilson, 1868.
From Genuki pages.
So the parish was Dumfries.
Gadget
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I can't get anything more specific than "mutual border of Dumfries and Caerlaverock parishes".
I've been through Dumfries census numerous times and I don't think this area is covered there - but I can check tomorrow when I get home.
Caerlaverock - not sure? I reckon whereever you find Glencaple you'll find Kelton listed.
P :)
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From your quote it says "part of" Kelton is in Dumfries.
It looks split to me.
P ;D
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It certainly does seem that way. Caerlaverock and Dumfries I think. I've got to go to Scottish Chamber orchestra, so can't do any more looking until later.
Gadget :)
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Check this out...
http://www.dumgal.gov.uk/dumgal/MiniWeb.aspx?id=86&menuid=917&openid=917
In the eighteenth century the parish [Caerlaverock] had seven villages. Of these Greenmill, Glenhowan and Blackshaw have mostly vanished. Shearington and Kelton are reduced in population and even Bankend has lost shop and school. The fate of Glencaple was rather different. Formerly a farm the Dumfries Town Council built a quay on the Nith and it became known as Glencaple Quay. Around the mid-nineteenth century shipbuilding declined but Glencaple as a resort was becoming increasingly popular. The Nith Hotel has been busy for 200 years!
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Boundary map...
http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/bound_map_page.jsp;jsessionid=E13B907937E75F3EB8111C386621EBD6?first=true&u_id=10058703&c_id=10107260
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There's also this one of KK parishes:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/KKD/kkdpmap.htm
Looks like if could be shared with either Teregles or Troqueer ???
Gadget
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1882-4 Gazetteer
Caerlaverock, a coast parish of Dumfriesshire, lying on the Solway Firth, between the rivers Nith and Lochar. It has its church on the Lochar, 4¼ miles W of Ruthwell station, and 5½ SE by S of Dumfries; it contains the village of Glencaple on the Nith, of Bankend on the Lochar, each with a post office under Dumfries, as well as the villages of Greenmill, Glenhowan, Shearington, and Blackshaw, and part of the village of Kelton.
There you go Sammidav.
You have a right pain in the neck as far as records go!!!
Best of luck,
Pam
;D
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There are definitely 2 Keltons (even after my previous assertions to the contrary).
So both sets of records would need to be checked to be sure. But I think Sammidav has hits fro DFS on Scotlandspeople.
P
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Hello again - this is a fine hunt! I have found some more helpful information in a book precis which also indicates Kelton is a village in the parish of Caerlaverock:
30. Through the Lens Glimpses of old Glencaple and Caerlaverock
The Parish of Caerlaverock has always been a little seperate from the rest of Dumfriesshire, the land forming a peninsula between the River Nith and Lochar Moss, however, the history of land ownership is also important. For around eight centuries the same family have owned the large majority of the parish. In Caerlaverock the Edgars of Glenhowan and the Stobas of Southfield were two such families. The landowners are the Maxwells, who built the first Caerlaverock Castle in 1220, became in later centuries Earls of Nithsdale, and, about 100 years ago, a descendant married into the family of the Duke of Norfolk. In the eighteenth century the parish had seven villages. Of these Greenmill, Glenhowan and Blackshaw have mostly vanished. Shearington and Kelton are reduced in population and even Bankend has lost shop and school. The fate of Glencaple was rather different. Formerly a farm the Dumfries Town Council built a quay on the Nith and it became known as Glencaple Quay. Around the mid-nineteenth century shipbuilding declined but Glencaple as a resort was becoming increasingly popular. The Nith Hotel has been busy for 200 years! Many local people have helped in the creation of this book, but particular thanks must go to Pat Grieg who, with good humour and perserverance, has seen it through to completion.
The book is available from libraries, museums, all good bookshops and local retail outlets, cost £2.50. Further information on all our publications here...
If you are not all exhausted as I am does anyone have information on the registers for Caerlaverock. According to another snippet there were ONLY :) 1014 people in the parish in 1801!!!
Samantha
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The records cover the following years...
Film No. 815. CAERLAVEROCK
Film Segment: 815/1
B 1749-1819
M 1753-1819
D 1753-75
Film Segment: 815/2
B 1820-54
M 1826-39
D 1826-54
For what you are likely to find checkout this thread...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,24468.msg767443.html#msg767443
As each parish is different it is hard to say what exactly you will find pre-1855.
Hope this helps,
Pam
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Hi I think I have found another clue. There are records of children born to John Smith: some from Keltown (Kelton) and some at Bourlands which I think may be Boreland (as mentioned further up this topic) which is the next hamlet south from Kelton.
Thanks to all,
Sam
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I don't want to add anything more confusing to this long running thread but I have a couple of Estate Particulars of the Estate of Kelton. One is dated 1794 and the other 1813. The earlier one says belonging to Gibson Stott Esq., and the latter one, which is termed a Rental, was made by Thomas Goldie of Dumfries, factor for Watson and Ebenezer Stott.(which amounted to £591.12.8d). This latter one gives 43 names (no Smiths) and their rentals.
The locations are Rhonehouse Croft and Rhonehouse for the majority of tenants and what appears to be Lodge and Brownyhill , Hightae and Furbarkhill with Little Hightae, Part of Mains, Thuave and Danock Isles, Standingstone, Bank of Kilnhouse, Afflecksfield, and Field on the bank.
The 1813 item mainly lists farms with their acreages, tenants and crops.
The only Smith reference I have is attached.
Kim
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Thanks - I will look for a James Smith. Does that say that says school master?
Sam
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Hi! Back in 2010 you refer to two documents in your possession, one dated 1794 and the other 1813.
The latter being described as a Rental and lists locations including Afflecksfield.
In a Register of Births for Ruthwell parish a Betty Affleck is born "in Afflecksfield" 28 Jul. 1771 and baptised 29 Jul. at Ruthwell, not too far from the adjoining parish. Is it possible for you to post a copy of that document and any help regarding Afflecksfield location, or should I be able to get same from Dum&Gal Archives.
Regards
Maffo
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Unavailable at the moment. Will reply in about a month. Sorry.