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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Juls on Thursday 13 July 06 10:06 BST (UK)
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Hi to all, I am very new to this list. :)
I am hoping someone can help me with info. on shipping details for Thomas William Downey who I found in the 1871 census for Battersea, Surrey. 203 ?? Road,District 18,Wandsworth Parish, Christ Church.
He was livng there with his father Thomas [aka -Christopher] Downey, mother Sarah [aka Georgina Douny], sister Georgina Cooper [aka Sarah Cooper] ,nieces Eleanor and Rosina Cooper. He was an engine cleaner at the time and his father an Engineer or Engine driver.
???What a surprise to find him there as I had been searching for ages for shipping details in previous years as his grandchildren told me he had emigrated when he was about 15. c. 1867-1868. I couldn't find his family in 1861 census.
Thomas DOB 14/3/1853, Twickenham or Islington, England.I have his B, D, and M certificates.Death cert. states he had been in nSW for about 72 years. He died in 1939. Son-in Law was informant so I'm doubtful re info. being correct.
I have searched all the sites I know of in NSW to no avail. Helpful people on NSW soc. genealogists lists couldn't find him either. ???
The big mystery for me though, is that he married Hannah Cansdell, 26 Oct. 1871 in Sydney, NSW and she gave birth to their 1st child - Rosanna - 22 Dec. 1871.
???I feel its cutting it a bit fine to be in England, April 2nd , 1871, emigrate to NSW - marry Oct. 1871 when Hannah is approx. 7 months pregnant. Unless baby wasn't his ::) or he had previously emigrated to NSW years earlier, went back to family and then came back to NSW. He and his wife Hannah had 9 other children, settling into the Newtown area, Thomas was a bootmaker.
Has anyone got any suggestions as this is driving me crazy. There were a few Downeys who emigrated to NSW and other states around that time frame but none of them seem to be him.
I would really appreciate any info. or advice at all,
Thanks,
Juls [australia]
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Hello there
and welcome to this site
is it possible that he met hannah on board the ship he came out on?
or he met her back in uk and the run away together or something romantic like that?
i will check the census for her cant find her birth in nsw do you have details for her at all?
regards jenn
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Hi Bob
Rosanna was registered in 1872 but she could have been born in 1871 - Some folks (like me) are a little slow to get things done ;D
Hi Juls
I'll have a browse too - and I have learnt to never believe what the ancestors said about what was done when ;D
I like the idea of a shipboard romance, but would have thought they may then have married sooner. I wonder if he left Hannah behind in England & she came out to join him?
Trish
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Hello there
by Juls post
Rosanna was born 22/12/1871 so the birth wasnt registered til 1872
but i did find by sluething that hannah seems to have been in australia for a few years she has siblings born here
i was puzzled by all the aka for the downey family is that the case or as sometimes happens people assuming that that is so an so in the census do you know what i mean
regards jenn
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Jenn
Are you looking at this death for Hannah
20168/1928 DOWNEY HANNAH THOMAS E MARY NEWTOWN? There are some children born to Thomas E and Mary Cansdale 1858 onwards.
There is also a large family for Edward and Annie Cansdale (probably too late to own Hannah) - and of course I think I found their immigration record when looking for Hannah!
Juls
Do you know when Hannah died? Would her death certificate be more accurate - if she died before her husband, he was probably the informant
Trish
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Jenn
Are you looking at this death for Hannah
20168/1928 DOWNEY HANNAH THOMAS E MARY NEWTOWN? There are some children born to Thomas E and Mary Cansdale 1858 onwards.
There is also a large family for Edward and Annie Cansdale (probably too late to own Hannah) - and of course I think I found their immigration record when looking for Hannah!
Juls
Do you know when Hannah died? Would her death certificate be more accurate - if she died before her husband, he was probably the informant
Trish
hello ther trish
yes looked at that death
also there is some family info on ancestory family trees but not for hannah she is shown but just some of her brothers and a sister no one has done it for her
so the info shown says the parents of hannah
thomas and mary came from kent dont know when and they had some kids born here and they died here
there was no informant details shown bugger!!
so it would suggest what??
regards jenn
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Hi Everyone! :D
I have not long finished work and what a surprise to find all these replies :)Thanks to all of you for your interest.
To answer a few questions:
Yes, I do have Hannah Downey's [Cansdell] death certificate which states she had been in NSW about 72 years which is the same as written on her husband's death certificate.Sounds like a guess to me although Thomas was the informant on his wifes death cert.
They married at the Free Church of England which was probably because Thomas was 18 and she was only 16. Apparently it was a bit of a "breakaway church" [so I have been told] - [Minister was Dr. F X Bailey] and popular with soldiers.
Both her parents seemed to be there as certificate states that father of the bride gave consent to the marriage and M A Cansdell [mother] :-\ was a witness. Both groom and bride didn't have their ages listed on marriage certificate.
Hannah Downey died 16 Dec 1928 in Newtown, NSW. I do have birth certificates for 1st 2 children Rosanna and Louisa so I know for sure Rosanna was born 22 Dec. 1871.
I have noticed that often the spelling of Cansdell has been incorrect so has been very hard to track.
Hannah's parents were Thomas Edmund Cansdell and Mary Ann Hall who I believe emigrated with son Frederick E. b.c. 1853 [England], Thomas Edmund b.c. 1854 [England] and Hannah.
I have not been able to find anything on their births only that Hannah was either born at Ramsgate,England or Woolwich, Kent, England[according to certificates].
I have even asked for help on the Kent list and although I had many people helping me we couldn't find their births. ??? I have wondered if perhaps they were registered under Mother's maiden name - Hall as parents were't married til Sep. 1855 at Dartford.
As Jen noticed there were 3 more siblings born in NSW so they must have arrived after Sep. 1855 and before 1858 when son Robert was born. Caroline Eliza and William John followed. Hannah's grandchilden had told me that they thought she was about 3 years old so it fits.
One thing about the Cansdell family I have recently found out thanks to the Kent listers is that they seemed to be quite well off with Thomas Cansdell's father [also Thomas] owning the Hoop and Horsehoe Inn in TowerHill, Middlesex [with many servants listed in census] Possible that they were unassisted passengers to NSW :-\. I have looked on the NSW site though.
As far as AKA for Downey families , I don't know whether they didn't like their names or what! Christopher Thomas became Thomas but was Christopher when he died.
Thomas Downey's mother Sarah Downey and his sister Sarah Georgina seemed to swap names every census. Its been a fluke to find them sometimes. I haven' t been able to find them in the 1861 census though.
Does anyone agree with me that the timeline is very tight for Thomas to emigrate,"get friendly ;)" with Hannah. marry in Oct. and have their 1st child in Dec. ???
Surely it would have taken the ship at least 8-10 weeks to get to Australia.
Is there any website that deals with emigration from the nearest port to Surrey or am I way off base.
Thanks again to everyone for their interest. I really appreciate all the help I can get! I won't be around for a couple of days as I am going away. Back next week though.
Juls
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Hi Juls
Now that we know Hannah was here from about age 3 - it does seem strange that Thomas was still in England on Census night and the child was born in December. The obvious conclusion could be that the child was not his, but presumably impossible to know/prove today. I thought in 1870s the trips were taking about 3 months so your 8-10 weeks would be a minimum.
I have had situations where family were listed on a census when they weren't there, so I guess it's possible that the census is incorrect. There are "unassisted" records at the NSW archives - but very few online indexes.
I surely don't have any answers :( but will keep looking
Trish
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Hi Trish,
Thanks alot for your reply. I'm glad you agree its virtually impossible for Thomas to be the father of the 1st child if he hadn't been in NSW previously. Maybe as you suggest the census has been incorrect which would mean the parents lied :o For what reason though ???
I'd like to think that he was the father but he may have just been a good bloke :D helping his new girlfriend out.
Juls
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Hello there
a question for you on the wedding certificate did it list thomas's profession you say he was an engine fitter in 1871 but then you say he was a bootmaker
by the 1881 census he father has died and perhaps one of the neices cause georgina Douny and eleanor and sharah cooper are living at east mosely you now doubt have this
so one might asume he died arrive in australia in 1871
regards jenn
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Hi Jenn,
To answer your questions - when I found Thomas William Downey in the 1871 census in England he was listed as an Engine Cleaner [father was an Engineer or Engine driver]
As I think I may have written previously I was totally shocked :o to find him there as he was married in NSW in Oct 1871 with his new wife approx. 7 months pregnant.
I had always been told by his grandchildren he had come to Aust. when he was about 15 years old.
Death cert. states he had been in NSW for about 72 years but the informant was son-in-law.He died in 1939 aged 86.
On his marriage certificate he is listed as a bootmaker which was to be his occupation for the next few decades. He married at age 18.
Yes, I do have details of the 1881 census where his mother is listed as Georgina Douny [widowed], his sister Sarah Cooper[widowed] and niece Eleanor. I'm not sure if Rosina has died or perhaps she could be staying with relatives.
Unfortunately the Downey family seems to swap their names around at will which makes life difficult for me tracing them!
Juls
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hello there juls
seems rather odd that he changed his trade n such a short time!!!
do you know what the candels did in sydney
regards jenn
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Hi Jenn,
I do wonder Jenn, if perhaps the census was incorrectly recorded and Thomas William was in NSW after all. I'll never know I guess.
I think he may have learnt the trade of bootmaking/ bootclosing/bootclicking [all the descriptions are from BDM certs.] from a relative by the name of William Downey [b.c. 1864] who also emigrated to NSW from England and I can't find him either. His parents were William Downey and Annie Wakefield.
Bit of mystery there as family always thought he and Thomas were brothers but looks as if they were cousins.Can't find connection at this stage.Would love to though.
Re: Cansdell occupations in NSW. Yes, Thomas Edmund{ Hannah's father] was a joiner/builder. Also possibly a grocer although that could have been another Cansdell.
Found him in the 1851 census, aged 16 [no POB] living with Mary Ann Hall, [ his future wife] and her family in the Greenwich Dockyard area, Woolwich as an apprentice to Mary Ann's father George.
Juls
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Hi Juls
Just in passing - I found a relative recently (1820s vintage) who went from being a shoemaker to a cheese dealer in the space of 5 years. I initially thought I had 2 people but 99% sure it is the same person - so career changes don't just belong with current generations!
Meanwhile - I am seriously thinking that your latter comment
he may have just been a good bloke helping his new girlfriend out
may well be the correct one.
Trish
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Hi Trish,
Cheese dealing sounds so much more interesting than shoemaking :)
Because Thomas William Downey was my gg grandgather I like to think he was a nice, decent bloke! ;D
He and his wife had 10 children together who all survived and from the photos I have seen of them together they looked to be very happily married.
I guess there's no way of ever knowing whether he is the father of 1st child without knowing his shipping details. Also probably no way of verifying whether he was definitely in England at time of census.
Juls
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Dear Juls,
I would like to make contact with you again over William Cansdell & Elizabeth Button; Thomas Cansdell and Mary, Thomas Edmund Cansdell and Mary Ann Hall, Hannah and Thomas Downey.
I have lots of new and confirmed information on members of our family and could answer many of the questions thrown back and forward in this message stream
kasey15
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Hi Kasey.
I would absolutely love to hear what you have. Sorry but I cant quite remember being in contact with you. There have been so many contacts over the years and I havent had much time lately to spend on the "family".My email address is
Moderator Comment: email address removed to prevent spam and other abuses. Please use the secure PM (personal message) system to share email addresses and other personal information. Thank You.
Kasey, as a new member you will need to make a couple more posts for the PM system to open up to you. (just reply here) Then Juls will be able to send email address
Thanks
Juls