RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => East Lothian (Haddingtonshire) => Topic started by: mcleodsyme on Wednesday 19 July 06 15:47 BST (UK)
-
I would be interested to hear from anyone who is related to the Syme family.
The Syme family lived at Northfield in Preston Pans Scotland. The fathers name was James, he died in 1819, his wife was Helen Knox and she died in 1843. There was a son James who died after 1819 and before 1843, a son George and a son Thomas.
They had three daughters, I don't know the first name of two but their daughter Catharine was my G.G. Grandmother.
Thanks,
Mcleod/Syme
-
Hello mcleodsyme,
Welcome to Roots.James Syme married Helen Knox 9 May 1783 Canongate Edinburgh , Midlothian .
They had the following children:
James Syme 24 Apr 1785
Christian Syme 28 July 1786
George Syme 21 Oct 1788
Andrew Syme 9 Oct 1790
Thomas Syme 5 Nov 1795
David Syme 29 July 1797
All extracts in the parish registers of Edinburgh Parish , Edinburgh , Midlothian Scotland.If you visit your local LDS Family History Center they will be able to help you locate the correct microfiche.
Happy Hunting,
Wee Bairn
-
Hello Wee Bairn
Thank you very much for all your work.
I have been working on our family history and had luck with the Mcleod side and now thanks to you the Syme side is progressing.
Mcleod/Syme
-
Hi McLeod/Syme,
After looking at your thread at:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,237141
I came across this old thread in your previous posts.
I'm not sure what you already know and what you are trying to find - perhaps only others researching your family?
In case you don't have the following ...
FreeCEN at:
http://www.freecen.org.uk/
has complete coverage of the 1841, 1851 and 1861 censuses for East Lothian.
Prestonpans was a parish in the county of East Lothian (formerly Haddingtonshire); see:
http://www.clerkington.plus.com/GENUKI/ELN/Prestonpans/index.html
From FreeCEN:
1841 - there are 9 SYME records in East Lothian but none in Prestonpans.
1851 - there are 17 SYME records including one household in Prestonpans; at Preston Northfield House, headed by George SYME, Lieutenant RN Half-pay, age 61, born Edinburgh Midlothian (presumably this is George son of James & Helen).
1861 - there are 19 SYME records including the household in Prestonpans; George now described as a Retired Commander RN.
The IGI (International Genealogical Index) on FamilySearch at:
http://www.familysearch.org
has George's marriage to Jane MACLEOD in 1827, Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian.
(Jane was born in Stornoway, Ross and Cromarty, ca 1803, according to the census records.)
A parent search in the IGI finds extracted entries for the christenings of 6 of their children; also a submission by an LDS member for the birth of a son John in 1834 in Prestonpans (given as his birthplace in the 1841 census) and his death in 1927 in Simco Ontario.
(Interesting to note that George & Jane's daughter Jane was born in Stornoway, Ross & Cromarty, according to the 1851 census but was christened in Inveresk with Musselburgh, Midlothian).
Also that the christenings of Helen 1836 and Elizabeth 1838 took place in Prestonpans yet there are no SYMEs in Prestonpans in the 1841 census ...
You could, if you wished, search for the family in the 1841 census (and later censuses) on the (pay-per-view) ScotlandsPeople site at:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
All the best,
JAP
PS: There is a description and photograph of Northfield House at:
http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/features/featurefirst1058.html
-
Hi again McLeod/Syme,
I Googled for:
"Northfield House" + Syme
and it led me back to RootsChat!!
To the following old thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,79749
which was started by Creatrix in 2005 and where, it seems, you posted once as 'MacLeod Syme' (not the current 'mcleodsyme'.)
Details of the 1851 census were posted there in Feb 2006 by 'tidybooks'.
Another relevant old thread started by Creatrix (no replies) is at:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,79740
Googling for Northfield House gets much information including photos of its 'doocot' (dovecote). The following extract is interesting:
"The house was built in the year 1611 ...
In 1746 Mr A. Nesbit, surgeon, Edinburgh, along with several other properties at Preston, purchased Northfield, and he afterwards sold it to James Syme, slater, Edinburgh. It was for a great number of years occupied by his son, the late Captain Syme, R. N.
In 1890 Mr James M'Neill, Wishaw, became proprietor of Northfield House and estate. ... "
It is from:
http://www.battleofprestonpans1745.org/arts-festival/html/press/vicinity/228.htm
One wonders who was living at Northfield House at the time of the 1841 census ...
JAP
-
A summary of threads about this family:
Some threads about this family:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,79740
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,79749
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=170609 (this thread)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,237141
JAP
-
Hi JAP
I was hoping when I first posted my inquiry about the Symes that I would hear from a Syme family member but I am getting all my help from rootschat people like you which is just as good .
I did find the 1841 census on ancestry.com and found George and Jane. James Syme and Helen Knox were by G.G.G.Grandparents, their daughter Catharine married my G.G.Grandfather John McLeod and their son George married John's sister Jane McLeod. My nephew has a lap top writing desk which belonged to Commander George Syme very beautiful and a great keep sake.
Thanks for the info about IGI it will certainly help to fill in some gaps in my research about the family, I could never find anything about their marriage or the date. Their son John McLeod Syme and his family are all buried in the cemetery about a mile from my home a small world isn't it.
Thank you very much for all your help
Keep safe
Helen
-
Hi Helen,
Am I reading this correctly, George McLeod married his Aunt Jane, his father's sister. I thought this was illegal?
On the IGI there is a submitted record of a George MacLeod marrying a Janet MacLeod on 12 Dec 1872, at Lochs, Ross & Cromarty he was 23 she was 21.
It is on SP as well, both surnames spelt McLeod
Tom
-
Hi Tom,
Sorry if I've misunderstood you but ... Are you perhaps mixing up MCLEOD and SYME, and also the time period? Do you have any reason to think that the 1872 MCLEOD m MCLEOD record you quote is connected to the family on this thread? MCLEOD is a very common name - especially in R&C ;)
This thread mentions that (then Lieutenant) George SYME m Jane MACLEOD in 1827.
And that Catherine SYME (George's sister) m John MCLEOD (said to be Jane's brother though, as I understand, there is currently no documentary proof of this relationship) in 1831.
JAP
PS: Possibly best if material connected to these families is consolidated on the ongoing thread? At:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,237141
-
Hi Jap,
I did find the 1841 census on ancestry.com and found George and Jane. James Syme and Helen Knox were by G.G.G.Grandparents, their daughter Catharine married my G.G.Grandfather John McLeod and their son George married John's sister Jane McLeod.
Helen
Catherine married John McLeod, so their issue would have been called George McLeod, and according to quote married John's sister. I take it that means John McLeod his father, hence Jane would be his Aunt. Sorry for the confusion, but thats what it says to me.
Tom
-
Tom,
The quote refers to George SYME marrying Jane MCLEOD.
They had a son George SYME.
And the quote refers to John MCLEOD (the putative brother of Jane MACLEOD later SYME) marrying George's sister Catherine SYME.
As far as we know their children were Murdoch MCLEOD and Thomas Syme MCLEOD - no George or Janet.
There is nothing at all in this, as far as I can see, to connect to an 1872 George MCLEOD-Janet MCLEOD marriage (MCLEOD being, it has to be said, an extremely common name).
JAP
-
Hi JAP,
Thanks for clearing that up, there are 3 threads for similar families, and I am getting rather confused at times.
Tom
-
Hi Tom,
Confusion? - I know the feeling only too well :o ::) ;D
JAP
(Wild weather here in Adelaide - a king tide which is flooding properties.)
-
I have been researching for some years the family history of Sergeant William Gunn who was born Achanneccan Farm, Kildonan, Sutherland in 1778. He served for decades in the 94th Foot & Highlanders from 1809. In died in 1861 in Durness, Sutherland. In 1822 at Durness he married Isabella Syme. She is listed on certificates as being the daughter of Captain George Syme RN and Winifred St Leger. Isabella Syme is said to have been born in Liverpool.
The only RN officer named George Syme that I can find entered the Navy on 14 April 1804 and was promoted to Lieutenant on 26 Oct 1813 and on 15 Apr 1856 had the rank of Commander. This man appears to be the same as the George Syme listed at Preston Pans.
As George Syme was about 38-39yo when he married Jane McLeod in 1827 in Edinburgh it is quite possible he was married before. Does anyone know if his marriage entry of 1827 indicate he was a widower?
Isabella Syme was reputedly born in 1796 and this puts a question mark over Captain George Syme RN being her father.
I wonder whether the Commander William Syme RN could be mixed up in this. He was made a Lieutenant on 6 Oct 1794 and a Commander on 16 Sept 1799. According to the Universal Scots Almanac of 1800 - disposition of ships are probably thus of those of late 1799 - Commander W Syme LE PUISSANT with 74 guns. Commander William Syme died in 1808.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
PS According to O'Byrnes "A Naval Biographical Dictionary" of 1849 -
George Syme entered the Navy 14 Apr 1804, as Fst-Cl Vol., on board the DEFIANCE 74, Capt Philip Chas Durham. After sharing as Midshipman in Sir Robt Calder’s action he removed, in Sept 1805, to the SAVAGE 18, Capt Jas. Wilkes Maurice, on the Cork station. He was subsequently employed – from March 1805 until Feb 1810 in the RENOWN 74, Capt PC Durham, in the Channel and also in the Mediterranean, where he united in the pursuit which led to the self-destruction, 26 Oct 1809, of the ships of the line Robuste and Lion – from May 1810 unti Dec 1811, the the BELVIDERA 36, Capt Rich Byron and EURYDICE 24 Capt Jas Bradshaw, on the coast of North America – and, from Aug 1812 until March 1814 in the VICTORY 100, VIGO 74, DEFIANCE 74 and ARGO 41, flag-ships of Admirals Sir Jas Saumarez, Jas. Nicoll Morris, Sir Geo. Hope and Graham Moore, and ARIEL sloop, Capt Danl. Ross, all in the Baltic. Of the vessel last mentioned he was created a Lieutenant 26 Cot 1813. His last appointment was to the ARAXES 36, Capt Geo. Miller Bligh, with whom he served in the West Indies from 7 Sep 1814 until 7 Aug 1816.
-
Hello louislou411 and welcome to RootsChat.
What certificates do you have which indicate that Isabella (SYME) GUNN was the daughter of Capt George SYME & Winifred ST LEGER? Death certs are notoriously unreliable so, yes, perhaps there's an error in her father's name. And does her birthplace come from censuses? What about her birthdate?
Certainly it seems pretty unlikely (as you say) - but NOT impossible - that Capt George SYME of Prestonpans (b 1788, I think) would have fathered a daughter who married in 1822 (I can't find her marriage in the IGI but see that there are children of William GUNN & Isabella SYME/SIM from 1822 to 1828 in Halkirk, Caithness and in 1830 & 1832 in Durness, Sutherland).
Best regards,
JAP
-
I have her death certificate and it clearly states Captain George Syme RN and Winifred St Leger. As you say they can be unreliable.
However Isabella did have children that were living in Durness at the time she died and therefore I think a certain amount of the information could quite likely be true.
Isabella's children were John Gunn bp Halkirk 1822, Helen Gunn bp Halkirk 1823, Margaret Gunn bp Halkirk 1825, Robert Gunn bp Halkirk 1828, Georgina Gunn bn Halkirk bp Durness 1830, bd Durness 1924, John Gunn bp Durness 1832 bd Durness 1845, Alexander Gunn bp Durness 1834 bd 1895 Australia, Daniel Gunn bp Durness 1836, bd Durness 1901 and William Gunn bp Durness 1840.
It would be interesting to find out if Commander William Syme RN was a relative to Captain George Syme RN.
-
Hi Louislou 411
I have the marriage entry for George Syme and Jane Mcleod and it only says he was a lieut. in the Royal Navy, nothing about being a widow.
As Isabella Syme was born in 1796, if related to Capt. George Syme she could not have been his daughter but maybe a cousin.
I have not had any luck finding any information on the brothers and sisters of James Syme who was Capt. George Syme's father, but as they liked to carry on the names in the family maybe the father James did have a brother named George who married Winifred St. Leger and with any luck was in the navy
Good Luck
MacLeod/Syme
-
What I find curious is that there are only two Captain Syme's listed as RN officers. Commander William Syme and Commander George Syme. I wonder whether Isabel was born a lot later than we thought. It might explain why I and more recently other researchers haven't been able to find a birth/baptism entry for her (so far). She could have been what we nowadays call a child bride (a 15-16yo). It does happen although it is rare. Although most men in the early days do not marry until at least their mid 20s I have seen on rare occasions seen men as young as 17yo getting married 200 years ago in Devon.
I recall reading that Captain George Syme and his wife Winifred were resident at Durness at the time of marriage in 1822. I can't recall where I got this information from. I may have a note of where this information came from but it is not at hand at the moment. I first began pursuing this about 10 years ago. It has only recently come back into my focus. I dug out Isabell's death certificate a few weeks ago and have looked at it a few times in the last week.
To solve the problem is to get into the records at Kew and find out more about Commander George Syme and Commander William Syme. I believe these records will give some details of the next of kin and with luck could solve the problem.
-
Hi
The marriage bans for George Syme and Jane McLeod were from North Nelson Street, St. Marys Parish, Edinburgh records, married Aug. 27 1827.
I do know he was born at Northfield House, PrestonPans, East Lothian, Scotland and his father was James Syme and mother was Helen Knox.
Hope this is some help when you find some records.
Macleod/Syme
-
Hi again
I have the 17 page will of Commander George Syme and there is no mention of any children named Isabella only the people I know about.
I did find something interesting for you when I looked through some of my files.
Commander George Syme's father James Syme died in 1819 and his estate continued till 1870 as a trust for his wife and children. In a document about the estate dated May 25 1849 it says , bond by the late George Syme Esquire and an amount , this George Syme was not his son because he died in 1886, so maybe this George is the one you are looking for and is probably a brother of James Syme who was born around 1740-1750.
MacLeod/Syme
-
Not quite sure if this part of my tree fits in with yours but the mariner part may be the key.
My 3x great Grandfather was William SYME/SIME, a Ship's Captain of Dunbar.
He was born in Tranent, East Lothian in July 1869 to William and Janet SYME/SIME nee BLAIR.
I do have a copy of my 3xgt Grandfather's will/testament which was proved in 1834 with his date of death being pronounced 'on or around first day of November 1829'.
He was married to Jane/Jean nee KEMP who, after being widowed, went on to marry a Robert WATTS.
Possibly nothing to do with you Prestonpans family but worth a stab.'
I have my family line down from William the Ship's Captain if it proves that we have a connection.
Julie in Adelaide Sth Oz where the sun is shining down fiercely!
-
We are also following the desxcendency of William Gunn and Isabel Syme.
One of thier children migrayted to Australia where there are many descendants
-
I have not found an Isabel in my line of the Syme family. You might have better luck if you send a personal message to ezekiel, it sounds like you might be connected.
Macleod/syme
-
Hello,
i have William Gunn b1778 & Isabella Syme b1778 in my family tree. they are my G.G.G Grandparents on my mothers side.I have Williams father as John Gunn? and helen Gunn? Can anyone verify this?
Also I have Isabellas father as george Syme RN and her mother as Winifred Leger. These were sent to me by a ancestry member and I would like to find out if they are correct.
My G.G.grandfather Alexander who was the son of William & Isabella Gunn immigrated out here to Aus in 1853.
Rubygee
-
Hi Rubygee
In my search I found George Syme married Jean Swintoun in Old Kirk Parish, Edinburgh May 23 1714, their children are
John - 1715
Andrew- 1716
James 1719 my ancestor
Katherine- 1719
George Jr. 1722 could be your ancestor
Jean 1729
George Jr. married Isabelle Johnstone Jan. 18 1747 in Haddington East Lothian. I got this info from John Muir House
Brewery Park
Haddington
EH41 3HA
George and Isabell had a son George born Mar. 3 1749 and also a son Alexander born 1751 in Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian Scotland.
This info. I got from Family Search IGI. The names seem to fit with your family so I hope this will help with your search.
Mcleodsyme
-
I have John Gunn b30.8.1759 married Helen Gunn on the 22.6.1777 at Latheron Caithness. Also John gunns father as Robert Gunn b abt 1730, who married Isabella Elder b 1730. Robert and isabella had 6 children -
Janet b4.7.1755 Houstry Latheron,J
John b 2.5.1757 Houstry,
another John b 1759 houstry,
Barbara b 19.6.1761 Houstry,
David b 5.7.1764 Houstry,
Elizabeth b 5.7.1764 Houstry.
I haven't any Georges in my research so I don't think they could be the same family. I did get this info off a Pauline who was researching the Gunn family and found she had the wrong thread. She sent me Williams war records as well.
Isabella Syme Died on the 6.11.1872 in Durness Sutherland.
-
Hi mcleodsyme,
I've just read your message again and found I had failed to look at the dates properly. God i have wasted so much time.!!!
The george Jr 1722 may well be the george i'm looking for . Will research on IGI .
Thanks for the info, will let you now how it goes.
rubygee
-
;) Hi just came across your thread and I have ancestors margaret Gunn born 1826,Robert Sinclair Gunn born 1828,Georgina Gunn born 1831, John Gunn born 1833, Alexandra Gunn born 1835 and William Gunn born 1839. All these names seem to tie in with the Gunn names you have. I have their parents were William Gunn born 1785 and an Isabella (henderson).
I am hoping you can help me as if I am on the right track with this ancestry. All records have been lost from my Great Grandparents when they passed away and this was given by mY Auntie. I am unsure where the Syme and Isabella had children with the name Gunn.
My GG Grandfather was Robert Sinclair Gunn whom married a Wilhelmina Campbell Cunningham. I am aware that Robert Migrated to Australia in approx 1860. His family lived in Durness.
Am I on the right track or can someone help me as to where to seek my ancestry tree.
-
I have Isabellas children that match up with all my ancestors names. My Isabella was married to a William Gunn and apparently she was a Henderson. She had Margaret Gunn b 1826, Robert Sinclair b. 1828, Georgina Gunn b.1831 ,John Gunn b.1833, Alexandra Gunn b.1835 and William Gunn b.1839.
This seems to tie in with my ancestry tree can you please fill in the Gap. Did she remarry after William Gunn or how does the Syme family come into the Gunns.
I have her death certificate and it clearly states Captain George Syme RN and Winifred St Leger. As you say they can be unreliable.
However Isabella did have children that were living in Durness at the time she died and therefore I think a certain amount of the information could quite likely be true.
Isabella's children were John Gunn bp Halkirk 1822, Helen Gunn bp Halkirk 1823, Margaret Gunn bp Halkirk 1825, Robert Gunn bp Halkirk 1828, Georgina Gunn bn Halkirk bp Durness 1830, bd Durness 1924, John Gunn bp Durness 1832 bd Durness 1845, Alexander Gunn bp Durness 1834 bd 1895 Australia, Daniel Gunn bp Durness 1836, bd Durness 1901 and William Gunn bp Durness 1840.
It would be interesting to find out if Commander William Syme RN was a relative to Captain George Syme RN.
-
dear jap and mcleod syme
I have beeen researching my husbands family and found his ggrandfather David Archibald :) was a footman at northfeild house in the early 1880's. He emmigrated to Australia in 1860 and became successful in the copper mining town of Moonta. He named his son Thomas Syme and his grand child was named George Hamilton (my father in law).
I knew they were from Prestonpans and that Capitan george Syme played a part in their upbringing, their father was killed in the Lucknow rebellion in India and his wife mary grieves was left with a young family two of the boys were put into James schaws home for poor boys of respectable parents of which Capitan Syme was a governor I feel he must have been good to them for great grandfather to honour him by naming his children after him and the area they came from, thought you might be interested.
-
I see there are miniature paintings by William John Newton, of a John Macleod and Catherine Syme for sale here: https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/hoteldesventes/catalogue-id-hotel-10021/lot-6aa27fda-dcf8-442e-a74d-a74e01005f6b
Pricey but you can at least see photos.